Densho Digital Archive - Kiyo Yoshimura Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Okay so, Kiyo, the way I always start this is kind of date and where we are. So today's Thursday, June 16, 2011. We're in the Chicago area at the Hampton Inn at Skokie. On camera is Dana Hoshide and I'm the interviewer Tom Ikeda, and so, Kiyo, let's start with just when and where you were born.

KY: I was born in Berkeley, California, but I resided in Richmond, California. That was where I was raised.

TI: So if you were born in Berkeley then at a medical facility like a hospital?

KY: Well, there was a midwife and it was in those days when they had midwives so my mother went to this midwife and had both my sister and I.

TI: And then what date was that?

KY: That's July 31, 1924.

TI: Okay, good, and so if I do my math correctly you're eighty-six years old?

KY: Right.

TI: And what was the name given to you at birth?

KY: My given name is Kiyoko Yoshimura.

TI: Let me ask about your father. Can you tell me your father's name and where he was from?

KY: Okay, my father's name was Tameji, T-A-M-E-J-I.

TI: And where was he from?

KY: He was from Osaka.

TI: Okay. And do you know anything about his family's life and what they did?

KY: Yes, well I need to explain a little bit. My father died in 1962 and somehow my mother and father were the only ones who immigrated from their respective families. And I just sort of felt like it was important for me to get to know my family. I have a history and so in '64 I went to Japan with my mother who had not returned since she left Japan forty years ago. So I just wanted to get that in, but my father's family were manufacturers. And they made stockings and they had a factory in what's part of Osaka prefecture, Matsubara. And so that's my father's... a little bit of his background.

TI: So you mention he was the only one who came to the United States. So do you know why he came?

KY: Well, I understand that my father came with his father to the United States earlier, and my feeling is that my father had a taste of what it was like to live in the United States and there was I think a freedom, a much more freedom because if he remained in Japan he would be one of the leaders in the factory. And he was not the oldest, he was the second son so I really felt that, he never said this but I just got the idea that he had a taste of what it was like to live in the United States and he returned after he married my mother.

TI: Okay, so in Japan he met your mother?

KY: Well, yes, my father stayed in the United States and my grandfather returned, and then his father called him back to say, "It's time for you to get married and have a family." So it was an arranged marriage and so my father and mother lived in Japan for a while and my father wanted to come back to the United States. So they came back in 19 -- they returned to the United States in 1923.

TI: And the first time your father was in the United States, about what year was that, do you know?

KY: Well, it must have been the early 1920s or around there I would think.

TI: So let's talk a little bit about your mother. So what was her name?

KY: My mother's maiden name was Tanaka.

TI: And her first name?

KY: Her name is Chiyo, C-H-I-Y-O.

TI: And do you know what her family did?

KY: Yeah, her father was a doctor. She's from Nara and he was a doctor in Nara.

TI: So that would be your grandfather?

KY: That would be my grandfather.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And so in 1923 your father returns to the United States along with your mother. And so what did your father do in the United States?

KY: My father worked for the Santa Fe railroad. He was a painter and there was a Santa Fe... the company was in Richmond and that's where he worked.

TI: Any stories or anything that you can recall about his job as a painter with Santa Fe? Did he tell you anything about it or anything like that?

KY: No, not particularly. When I was living in Richmond and my father was working for the railroad, actually, we lived like in a commune I guess they call it. There was a building in which many of the workers at the railroad company, we all lived together so there was this big building, and so families, different families lived in that building.

TI: Now were they all Japanese families?

KY: Uh-huh.

TI: Oh, interesting so this is... so the building was owned by the Santa Fe railroad?

KY: No, you know, to tell you the truth I don't know who owned the building but there were a number of families who lived in this big building and it was near where the company was. So I lived in that commune, commune I guess you call it, and then we felt that it was important to buy our own home. So we moved out and people moved out and then bought their own homes in the community.

TI: Okay, let's talk about the commune a little bit. That's interesting. So about how many families were there?

KY: Let's see... I would think there were about six or so families, and there were single men too, I think.

TI: And so let's start with -- excuse me -- just maybe the sleeping quarters. So how did people sleep?

KY: Well, people were sectioned off. We had... we were on the first floor and we had four rooms. There were two rooms across the hall from each other so it wasn't like an apartment but it's a... there were rooms close by and you had a bedroom and a kitchen and a living room.

TI: Okay, and then you had four rooms and at this time there were four of you?

KY: Yes, in my family it's just my mother, father, and younger sister.

TI: And what was your younger sister's name?

KY: Her name was Tama, T-A-M-A.

TI: Okay, and so the four of you were in these four rooms. so bedrooms, kitchen, and then in a similar way the other families had several rooms scattered around.

KY: Exactly.

TI: When you said commune, were there some shared activities like sometimes kitchen where everyone would eat together or anything like that?

KY: No, well, you know, we didn't do that but there was a lot of sharing... my mother was a stay at home mother so she would take us and the children in other families like to the beach because we were very close by. So but there was nothing we didn't eat together, you shared, if you had something special you might share with one another but there wasn't any group activities per se.

TI: How about things like a bath, furo, did they have a large or shared bath?

KY: Yeah, there was a bath that it was shared bathing facilities, right.

TI: And that was more a traditional Japanese or just a big tub.

KY: It's just a regular tub, yes.

TI: In terms of the bathrooms, is that shared or did each --

KY: Shared, yes, it was shared.

TI: And food, housing, it sounds like as a kid growing up there you had a lot of playmates.

KY: Yes.

TI: In that area.

KY: Well, in a way, where we were, I grew up in not a Japanese community. I mean, this commune was, but there weren't any other Japanese other than in the building so I lived in a community where most of the neighbors were white, there were some Hispanics, so my growing up I didn't see that many Japanese.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Okay, so let's talk about your school then. When you went to school was it mostly then white and then maybe Hispanic and a few Japanese?

KY: There were, in the community there weren't that many Japanese. I was the only Japanese in my class. When I saw other Japanese people was that my parents thought it would be good for us to go to Japanese school. So on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday, we used to go to... there was a woman who came and we went to the Japanese class. And that's when in Richmond there were a number of people who owned flower nurseries and they lived very close by and so that's when I saw more Japanese.

TI: Given that you were the only Japanese in your class, how were Japanese viewed or treated in Richmond before the war?

KY: Well, as far as I'm aware, I think on the whole we weren't that many so we just... I think we got assimilated but there weren't any problems. I've never been called any names or I've never had any, there weren't any incidents of racial discrimination.

TI: So I'm getting a sense about Richmond. So you had the Santa Fe railroad so they're some Japanese who work there. You mentioned the nursery business, was there a large enough community that there was like a Japanese store and things like that?

KY: No, it's interesting, there was a vendor who used to come selling Japanese food, so that's how, one of the ways that you're able to get Japanese food. During the summer particularly because we need dental care, we went to Oakland and then in Oakland there were Japanese stores but in the immediate community there were not.

TI: So describe this vendor. How would that work? So when the vendor would come, how did he get there and what kind of wares did he have?

KY: I don't know how he came, but he would just, if I remember I don't remember that clearly but, he had a truck and he had all sorts of Japanese foods and that's all I remember.

TI: So when you say truck, so he would open the back of the truck and it would all be like a display there?

KY: Right, if I remember correctly.

TI: And when he came and opened up, was it like a... all the mothers would go out there and shop and look at things?

KY: Yeah.

TI: How about kids, did he have things like candy or anything do you remember?

KY: I don't remember our surrounding the truck with that kind of... I don't think though whether that I even... I don't remember that. I don't think so.

TI: And then every once and a while you would go into Oakland and there was the larger Japanese store.

KY: Yeah, you had your Japanese stores.

TI: And when you went to Oakland was there anything memorable in terms of a particular store or activity?

KY: I think I remember the sweet store, they had a sweet store. So we used to go in there.

TI: And when you say sweet store, back then was that like manju type?

KY: Yes.

TI: How about church? Did you attend church?

KY: No, since there were so few Japanese, there were no organizations as such. And it was only... we did not attend church, but just before we were sent to camp, somehow we started to go to the United Methodist Church and that was my first experience of going to a Christian church.

TI: And where was that located?

KY: This was in Richmond.

TI: And so at the United Methodist, it must have been primarily a white church?

KY: Yes.

TI: And do you know why your family decided to go?

KY: Well, I think she came to the house and I don't know, we just started to go, I guess. I don't remember.

TI: And when you say she came to the house.

KY: It was a woman, a woman who came.

TI: How about things like do you recall any picnics or anything like that in Richmond with your family and maybe some other families, anything like that?

KY: Not really, my mother was a great one to take us to... because we lived near San Francisco Bay and so she would take us to the beach very often. So much of our activity my mother really provided for us.

TI: Now you were the oldest daughter, and as a child, before going to school, what language did you speak?

KY: Well, I was mostly Japanese and it was very fairly traumatic for me to start school and I didn't adjust very well. If I remember correctly, my mother, it was really... I had a difficult time getting started in school. And eventually I got over it but I think going to school was a traumatic experience for me. I think that it's not fair to kind of know, but it was quite an adjustment because we had lived in a very sheltered kind of environment.

TI: It sounds like you were very perhaps Japanese.

KY: Exactly.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: And then you had to start school and you're the only Japanese in a class of primarily whites. And you didn't have the language ability.

KY: Yes, exactly.

TI: And that is a fairly common experience with many of the Niseis because their parents spoke Japanese in the home and their first experience with needing to speak English was at school.

KY: Yeah, I think so because I was around the Japanese all the time and not really... I don't remember playing with the neighborhood kids.

TI: Do you recall how well equipped the teacher was to provide sort of English as a second language to you? I mean, was that awkward for her also?

KY: You know, I'm a complete blank. I kind of feel that a sense of maybe I had to overcome this. I mean even as a youngster that you just had to overcome this. That's the feeling that I have but I don't remember anybody that, the teachers helping you with this.

TI: Now as the older sister realizing your younger sister would have to go to school, did you do anything to prepare her for school in terms of English or letting her know that she'll have to learn English?

KY: No, I think maybe as I think back, that I had to overcome this and once perhaps, I don't know, that if I could... there's only fourteen months' difference between my sister and I. And I don't know, she didn't have that difficulty but I did.

TI: She didn't have the difficulty because she had some English or she just --

KY: I don't know.

TI: Okay, so she just doesn't do that.

KY: Whether she saw what I was going through and so I don't know. I've never talked to my sister about that.

TI: I mean in general we find that, at least in interviews I did, that the firstborn usually has the more difficult time. And usually the other siblings catch on that English is going to be needed and somehow they are a little bit more prepared for it.

KY: But see, I can't tell you because but if they could see that nothing really happened to you once you started school then that gives them a sense of relief, yeah, I don't know.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: You know, going back to Richmond and other activities you mentioned your mother taking you down to the bay, the beach on the bay, what are some other memories you have in terms of just the Richmond area, different places? I think you're the first person I've interviewed prewar Richmond so I'm curious about anything else you could remember about that.

KY: Well, you know as we're talking I mean I never really thought about this but I think that it's amazing how well my parents did particularly my mother, she was the one who had to keep the home, she had some learning to do. She said that the first Thanksgiving she roasted a turkey because everybody, you're supposed to have a turkey, that she didn't know that she had to clean the inside and just roasted the turkey, I mean, she shared that story. But how they managed, you know, my mother used to go shopping in the community, she would take us downtown and it's amazing when they knew no English, they had no understanding of what American life was like but she managed very well.

TI: Now did you know if your... during this time if your parents... how much communication they had back with their families in Japan?

KY: They did have a lot of communication. One of the things that I appreciated is the fact that my parents did keep in contact with their families. And very often around the dinner table we always had dinner together regardless and my parents would share what life was like when they were living in Japan. And so when I went to Japan in '64, 1964, all these memories came back and I felt that I knew many of my relatives so there was a lot of sharing. And during the war, this is getting ahead, but my mother particularly would send care packages.

TI: This is after the war you mean? You know, going back to those dinner table conversations and when your parents talked about Japan, what was your sense about Japan as a child when they talked about Japan? I mean, what do you remember in terms of if you thought was it a good place to live or I mean what in general what can you remember?

KY: I don't know. I would guess I'd focus more on the person and the relationship with my parents. And I don't think I had an opinion one way or the other but just knowing, I guess, being connected in relationships, that made an impact on me.

TI: Okay, good. How about things like Japanese folk tales? Like when I grew up, Momotaro and things like that, I mean, were those things that you learned as a child and heard?

KY: Not from my parents as much as going to Japanese school. That's where I learned most of those folk tales but I didn't learn this from my parents, though.

TI: Okay so in the course of learning Japanese you would learn more about these Japanese stories.

KY: Exactly.

TI: Okay good.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So let's talk about school. We talked a little bit, so what kind of student were you?

KY: Well, I think I was a good student. I've always had an intellectual curiosity which has helped me and so it also... I was eager to learn things, so that made me try, sign up for different things. And so I really felt that I enjoyed school very much.

TI: So when you're in school, you're doing well, you have these interests, before the war started, what were your... I guess hopes in terms of career or what you would be doing?

KY: I think that I thought I wanted to be a nurse. My desire was to go to college and so that my classes were geared towards going to college and I said, well, probably nursing career was the thing that came to my mind. But that got changed later, but a profession that I think.

TI: And besides your school classes, were there any other extracurricular activities that you did at school?

KY: You know, I don't remember. Well, I know I joined the chorus. I enjoyed taking trips, I remember one of my joys was going to the San Francisco opera. And I can't remember anything else, but I think there were things that interested me.

TI: And so after school when you're in high school, what would you do after school?

KY: Well, usually I wasn't very active in after school activities. Usually we... because I lived a little distance from high school, so usually just went to school and came back and didn't do too many high school activities. And since I didn't... I had friends but I didn't do very many things outside of school with these friends.

TI: Okay, so when you got home after school, what type of things did you do?

KY: I can't remember that I did anything.

TI: Were there things like certain chores that you would have to do?

KY: No, I don't remember that we had any chores to do.

TI: Okay, so when the war --

KY: Well, because I'm focused on the commune, but we moved and so we would, yeah, coming home afterwards we would play with the kids next door. There was a creek down near us and we would go down to the creek or go roller skating, those were some of the things we did.

TI: So describe, so after the commune you went to your own house, describe that house for me.

KY: Well, it was a very... we had a large yard, and my mother grew chickens, and we had a garden and it was a very small and neat house.

TI: And about what age were you when you moved to the house?

KY: That's what I was trying to think of. I think that I was beginning high school, I think.

TI: Okay, good. I forgot to ask you, so what was the name of your high school?

KY: Richmond Union High School.

TI: So you were at Richmond Union High School when the war started. You were... looks like you're about seventeen years old. So was that your junior or senior year?

KY: No, I was a senior. I was to graduate in June of '42.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: Okay, so you're a senior at Richmond Union High School, so December 7, 1941, why don't you describe that day for me.

KY: Well, we were in Japanese school, that was a Sunday. And one of the parents came and picked us up and told us what was happening and I guess the first reaction was disbelief. I mean, it was just a shock and disbelief. And I think it took a while before it really sunk in that this is for real.

TI: And when you got home, any reaction from your parents or your sister about what just happened?

KY: I get the sense that it was just disbelief, it took a while for us to really integrate the whole event.

TI: Okay, so this is a Sunday, the next day is a school day, what were your thoughts about going to school the next day?

KY: I guess maybe we were hesitant but we went to school, we went to school, and I think my father went to work. But it was, well, you can imagine it was a very anxious period of time.

TI: So were there any incidents or anything at school the next day or the days following?

KY: No.

TI: Was there any mention or discomfort that you felt at maybe what a teacher said or at assembly or anything about the war and Japan bombing Pearl Harbor?

KY: You know I don't remember that anything was said. It just... school just went on as it was. Nobody said anything.

TI: So one way or the other, like a friend maybe acknowledging what happened and saying to you, "Kiyo, everything's going to be okay," or anything like that?

KY: I don't remember anyone saying that to me so it's just like... but I don't remember anyone saying anything. My civics teacher didn't say too much but I really felt she was very supportive to us, to me.

TI: Now as the weeks went by and the Japanese started getting the orders to leave the area, did you -- well, actually before we go there, I just remembered something. So you lived in Richmond and so which was very close to the oil refineries.

KY: That's right.

TI: So tell me what happened because of that I mean.

KY: Well, as a result of that, I had to move from Richmond to somewhere and we moved to Berkeley. So we moved earlier and then we moved to Berkeley and stayed with a family until we were sent to Tanforan Assembly Center.

TI: Okay, so how close was your house to the oil refineries and when you were moved?

KY: Well, it wasn't close but it was close enough. I mean, it's right there in town, I mean, not town but outside of town. So it was close.

TI: And were you able to see the refineries from your house or anything like that?

KY: No, that we couldn't do.

TI: And so when your family was moved, I'm assuming that all the Japanese families in Richmond were moved also?

KY: Right.

TI: And do you remember how that happened? Did they come to your door or did they send you a letter or how did you know you had to leave?

KY: You know, I don't remember if we got a notice or how we found out that we had to move. I don't remember.

TI: Okay.

KY: But we knew that we had to leave our house and move from Richmond.

TI: And was it the type of movement that had to be done quickly? I'm trying to think about the house and all your belongings, did you have the time to dispense with those things in a, I guess in a logical manner?

KY: Well, actually what happened is that we were able... we left everything, we just, as you know, we could only take what we could carry. So we left most of the things in the house and we left our home in the hands of a real estate agent. And we never received any of the rent but they just took care of it for us and after the war we were able to sell the house.

TI: Okay, so the house was owned by the family. And do you know how that worked in terms of who the house was under?

KY: Since my parents were not citizens, it was in my name.

TI: So it sounds like, so your family made arrangements with this realtor to rent the house out while you were gone and then but the house would remain yours. But he just kept the rent it sounds like. When you went to Berkeley, who did you live with in Berkeley?

KY: Well, somehow we had a family friend who said they would take us in temporarily and so that's where we stayed.

TI: And so when you went to Berkeley, did you continue your studies at Richmond Union?

KY: Yes, I commuted from Berkeley to Richmond until we had to leave.

TI: And as you got closer to the time you had to leave for Tanforan, any comments or discussions, you mention your civics teacher and here you're a United States citizen, and in civics class you learn that U.S. citizens have certain rights, sort of due process things like that, any discussion?

KY: No, there wasn't. I think we just followed... we were supposed to do this and so we just did it, right.

TI: Okay, so before we go to Tanforan any other memories or thoughts we should talk about either at Berkeley or Richmond?

KY: No, I don't think so.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So, Kiyo, we're going to start up again. Before we go to Tanforan, your father was working for the Santa Fe Railroad. Was his job impacted at all after the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

KY: Yes, I can't remember whether they made him stop working. I can't remember, or he just stopped when we were ordered to move. I think that's more like what it was but there was no way that he could return to that job with the railroad.

TI: Okay, because I was wondering, because there was... I've read about how some of the railroads fired all their Japanese workers. I think their thinking was that, well, the railroads are such a key transportation and so they fired all Japanese workers.

KY: I think that's probably what it was because he couldn't go back or he lost his job.

TI: Okay, so where we left off in terms of your life was so you're in Berkeley, you're commuting back and forth to go to high school in Richmond but then you get the orders that you have to leave the area. And so let's talk about that, you mentioned Tanforan earlier. So how did you get to Tanforan?

KY: Well, I think we were all ordered to be at a certain place and I think we boarded a bus and we were transported to Tanforan. We didn't know where we were going.

TI: And so what were your impressions of Tanforan? I'm thinking here you were pretty much in Richmond around mostly white people and then now you go to Tanforan and what was that like?

KY: It's interesting that you bring that subject up because it impacted me because I had never seen so... we used to go to the Buddhist church for special ceremonies and I would see groups of Japanese. But I had never seen so many Japanese, it really did impact on me. And it took a while for me to get used to it and it was, I think for me, somewhat uncomfortable. And I've always felt it's taken a while for me to get comfortable being in a Japanese group. It's taken many years to feel comfortable and... because I grew up in a white community.

TI: And what was it about going from a white community to one that was in this case all Japanese and Japanese Americans? What made you uncomfortable? Can you kind of articulate that?

KY: Maybe it was because with the non-white groups... I guess with the Japanese group you felt more intensity of relationships and you found that you had... the Japanese culture there are a lot of subtleties that you have to be aware of. And you're not always so sure that you could be free in expressing how you really felt, and I guess I have always felt that you should feel free, but there was a confining feeling.

TI: So that discomfort was more like all of sudden, for lack of better words, there was like a set of different rules almost.

KY: Yeah, and I didn't know the rules that well. Yes, exactly.

TI: What about just Tanforan in terms of the facility, what were your impressions of that?

KY: Well, I was one of those people that went early, our family was early to be sent to Tanforan so we lived in a horse stall. Since there were four of us, the back stall became where we slept and the front part of the stall became your living quarters. But we lived in those stalls that they had painted over and it was open at the top and you could hear everything.

TI: So you could hear everything, obvious horse stalls, how about the smells? Do you remember the smells?

KY: The smell, there was but it wasn't overpowering I think they did a fairly good job so you were not affected by it.

TI: Now as a young woman, how about, it sounds like there wasn't much privacy.

KY: There wasn't, you're right. As you know, these camps is public, everybody uses the latrine and washing. There wasn't any.

TI: Any incidents or memories about Tanforan that really stand out for you?

KY: No, there wasn't anything in particular.

TI: So how about the food, do you remember the food?

KY: I don't remember so much of the food. It wasn't real real bad, it's the standing in line that really stands out. You had to stand in line for everything.

TI: How about people getting frustrated? Did you ever see other people just kind of blow up or get angry or get frustrated or crying, things like that?

KY: No, I can't say that I... I'm sure a lot of people did but I don't remember anything standing out for me.

TI: How about the time you spent there? How did you spend your time when you were at Tanforan?

KY: We were there from April to September and I had not... well, no, I didn't have a job so I didn't work. I can't remember, I really can't remember what I did while I was at assembly center.

TI: So you're there through, I mean, through September and then where did you go?

KY: Then I went to Tanforan, I mean, to Topaz, Utah.

TI: And why don't you describe the journey from Tanforan to Topaz, what you can remember.

KY: Well, as you know you've heard this over and over again that we, all of us, didn't know where we were going. And we couldn't look outside so there was these anxious feelings, and I think we didn't have any incidents, we just sort of just did what we were told. And the trip went smoothly but all of us you could sense where are we going kind of feeling. But I can't remember anything that stood out.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So tell me about Topaz and your first impressions when you got there.

KY: If I remember, we took a bus after we got off the train and we were bused to Topaz. There was nothing surrounding, you just saw the mountains and the sagebrush and it was pretty desolate. And we were housed in Block 35.

TI: Describe your living quarters.

KY: Well, it was just one big room, one big barrack room and with a potbelly stove, four cots, and in the process we either, somebody made us a table, we had a table and a couple of benches. And my mother insisted that... my father worked as a chef in the next block and we -- 34 -- and we lived in 35. But my mother insisted that my sister and I were home for dinner every night. I mean, it was very, very important for us so she or one of us would go to the dining hall to pick up our dinner. And so we always ate at home.

TI: That's a little bit different than most families. And would you go to the place where your father was a chef or just your block?

KY: No, we would always... we never went to the block that my father worked in.

TI: Did other families do similar kind of things?

KY: I don't think so. I'm not aware of any other families but somehow it was important that we sit down together for dinner.

TI: And how did you and your sister feel about that?

KY: I think we were fairly comfortable. I think that... I know that talking to friends, they said, "Oh, we just ate with our friends," and we just... that was just normal. But somehow this is what my mother felt was important I guess.

TI: Now do you recall if that was or how the sort of the mess hall people, the dining hall people viewed it when you would have to go and get your food and then bring it back? I mean, was that an inconvenience anyway for them?

KY: I don't think so I think other people did it, it wasn't that unusual.

TI: Okay so you would just go kind of go through the regular line and get your food, bring it back and then when you're done just bring it back to the dining hall.

KY: Well, no, you really, you have to bring your own utensils, you know, I mean, your plate and everything so it's just a matter of bringing it home.

TI: Okay, that's interesting because I hear the stories of, in particular amongst teenage Niseis and how they would just eat with their friends and how in retrospect they viewed that and sort of breakdown in the nuclear family and not having that time with their parents eating together. And so this is a little bit different. In retrospect, do you think your experience was different because of that? I mean, in any way do you think back that because you ate with your mother every night and your sister that that somehow changed your experience in camp?

KY: It might have. I think that... I get the feeling that because there were just four of us, that we were a very close unit. I mean, I think there was a feeling of... my father wasn't there but we were a pretty close unit as a family.

TI: Good.

KY: It might be, I don't know.

TI: Now for school, you were just, I guess weeks away from graduating at Richmond. Did you have to graduate in camp?

KY: Yes, I didn't go to school in camp at all but I did receive my diploma.

TI: From Richmond?

KY: From Richmond.

TI: So they graduated you even though... and how did they do that because you didn't, I guess, technically finish high school?

KY: I don't know but they gave me my high school diploma. I mean, it was a regular diploma.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Okay, so you didn't have to go to school. So did you have a job at Topaz?

KY: Yes, see, I think I told you earlier that I was thinking about a nursing profession and so I said, well, I'll work as a nurse's aide at the hospital which I did all during the time I was in camp. But that sort of cured me, it isn't what I wanted to do, so it was a good experience in the sense that it helped me to sort out some things.

TI: So what was it about being a nurse's aide that turned you off from wanting to become a nurse?

KY: I don't know. It sounded glamorous but when you really got down to it, it wasn't, so I wasn't going to be... I didn't feel that it was for me.

TI: So you were a nurse's aide for the duration you were at Topaz. I'm curious, what kind of cases or patients did you see at Topaz?

KY: Well, it really came down to just caring for the patient. You gave nursing care, that's primarily what the job consisted of.

TI: But I guess I'm curious about what kind of illnesses or injuries or what type of things did the hospital handle?

KY: Oh, they did everything, physical injuries and if I remember, it was a regular hospital so they took care --

TI: So they had births and injuries and people just getting like the flu or pneumonia and things like that.

KY: Yeah.

TI: And your father was a chef, how about your mother, did she have a job?

KY: No.

TI: And your sister did she have a job?

KY: She was a student while we were in camp.

TI: Now with the money you made in camp, what did you do with that money?

KY: Sixteen dollars a month. [Laughs] Oh, I guess we ordered things from the outside. I think at this particular time that sixteen dollars didn't get you very far. So I don't remember like I have to save for this or that. I don't remember how I spent my money. Maybe we bought some things.

TI: So how about the social life in Topaz for you?

KY: I have to say that I didn't join any of the groups, just did things with friends, but I was not a person who participated a lot in the social activities.

TI: So things like dances, nothing.

KY: I didn't.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So let's talk about after Topaz and so how did you come to decide to leave Topaz, and tell me about that.

KY: I think you always wondered what you need... where we were going, and I sort of felt in the back of my mind, eventually we're going to have to leave. And there was a girlfriend of mine and her brother... her sister and her husband were in Chicago and she was thinking about, this girlfriend was thinking about leaving for Chicago. So I decided to go with her and I'm thinking gee, this is... I don't know anything about living on my own, but my parents agreed to let me go.

TI: And at this point you are twenty years old?

KY: Yeah, and my parents agreed that, and I think they probably thought... see, one of the things that... and I don't know where this comes from but being the oldest of the children, there was an ingrained sense of responsibility for my parents. Growing up, because I was a citizen, my parents relied on me like the house and anything that had to do with any kind of citizenship. So somehow I really felt I had to... I have felt it and so in some ways I think my parents -- this was not ever said -- but I sensed they looked to me for some direction about where we'd go from here. And as I say, none of this was articulated but it's just a sense. So since they let me go, I came to Chicago in August of '44.

TI: And before we get to Chicago, in terms of leaving camp, in terms of the paperwork, the approval, describe that. What steps did you have to go through to leave camp?

KY: I don't remember. I don't remember, but I think it was... I had to take the initiative to do all of this, my parents couldn't help me with this. But I don't know quite all the steps that I had to go through in order to finalize the departure papers to be signed.

TI: In terms of initiative, I mean, did the Topaz camp administration was there a sense that they were encouraging you and others to leave the camp and so they made it really easy?

KY: I don't think so. I don't know. I never felt this. They probably... I think there was a sense that somehow one of these days we're going to have to leave.

TI: Earlier than when you left do you recall filling out the leave clearance form? What a lot of people call the "loyalty questionnaire" and do you remember that process?

KY: Yes, I did. I think I said "yes" to one... "yes" to one and "no" to the other I think. So that was I gave a "yes" and a "no" to the answer.

TI: And did that cause any questioning by the administration by doing "no"... I'm thinking you went "no" either to the... well, it used to be one to the military service but that wouldn't pertain to you. So it would be in terms of allegiance to the United States.

KY: I think it was allegiance but I don't think, I think the other question was serve in the army. I think I had to answer that question.

TI: Okay, so maybe that's why.

KY: "Yes" and "no," I'll have to look. I did get my record from the archives, so I do have my record from the National Archives.

TI: Do you recall anything interesting in those records? So how thick was that?

KY: Well, my half was to be very thin because there wasn't that much. But nobody questioned me on my answer.

TI: Earlier you mentioned sort of this unspoken sense between you and your parents in terms of you sort of taking a lead in what the family should be doing. I mean, it feels like to me that that was something that you felt also. I mean, that this was something that was a responsibility as the firstborn to really in some ways go out there and figure out... it's almost like being a trailblazer or pioneer, to figure what would be best for the family.

KY: Because my parents couldn't do this, so, not that if the situation... I mean, they're capable of doing certain things but this was something which was totally not... they were not able to do that.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: So what were you thinking? So before you got to Chicago what were some of your ideas in terms of what you would do in Chicago?

KY I had no idea. I had no idea what I was going to find. At least I had a place to stay, and there were people who I knew would be there to help, but that's about it.

TI: So describe going to Chicago and what you found when you got there.

KY: Well, as I said, because of my friend's sister and husband, they were... you felt a certain sense of security in that you knew you would have a place to stay. And so I felt it wasn't like we were just going to be in the city and then we didn't know where we were going. So in a sense there was a feeling of security.

TI: And at this point when you went to Chicago, was there any support from the WRA?

KY: No, actually we didn't have, we didn't. The WRA really didn't help us with finding a job. I don't know how I found the job that I had.

TI: And what job did you eventually get?

KY: Well, I found a job with the Chicago YWCA, and for me in a way it was... it changed my life in a sense that this organization, I went to a very nurturing, caring organization. And I really felt that because of the fact that it was a Christian organization and the people who worked there were very, very supportive and caring and I really felt accepted there.

TI: Were there any other Japanese Americans working there when you got there?

KY: No, not at the time.

TI: But then later on some came?

KY: There were others.

TI: And what was your job?

KY: I was a secretary in the college students, the student Christian movement organization, this is what we worked with.

TI: Were the people at the YWCA, were they aware of where you had just come from and did you have discussions or conversations about that with them?

KY: No, not really, not really. We didn't talk that much about it.

TI: So how did you know that they knew?

KY: Well, it just... it's the way they related to you and how supportive they were. But I really... it was not something that we talked about. In those days I think... and I don't know whether I would've been able to really talk about it, to be honest with you. I mean it was such a difficult and a painful experience.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: And so during this time, Chicago became a place where many Japanese Americans, a lot of Niseis started going from probably almost all the camps. Did you have an awareness or sense that Niseis were coming to Chicago?

KY: Yes, I became active with the Chicago Resettlers, which was an organization that worked with the people who were settling in Chicago, and there was activities for youth and I was very active in the Resettlers youth group.

TI: So tell me more about the Chicago Resettlers group. I mean, what kind of organization was it and what was its purpose?

KY: Well, the Chicago Resettlers was established when many of the people started to come out of camp they provided... it's an organization that looked for housing, employment, they had classes in English, ways in which to help the people from camp resettle in this city. And to this day it's been renamed but it's now the Japanese American Service Committee.

TI: Okay, so that was the precursor to the JSC.

KY: Right, exactly.

TI: Got it. Back then when it was called the Resettlers, besides housing and employment, did they do other things like social activities?

KY: Yes, I think so. If I would had known I would have brushed up a little bit more on it. But they had a number of activities but it was the organization that did a number... did quite a bit of work with the Resettlers to try to meet their needs and provide service.

TI: So I'm thinking that about what it must have been like. Here you must have been getting a wide cross section of the Japanese American community from all over, from the different camps and prior to that, from different parts of the country. What were your impressions of the Japanese Americans and the Japanese who were coming through Chicago at this time? Were they... what were your impressions?

KY: Well, I think... well, I met a lot of people and made some friends. I can't say that I had any really impacting impressions. It was just interesting but I didn't feel anything special.

TI: Was there a sense that the people who were coming through were going to stay in Chicago? Or was it a sense that Chicago was always just going to be this transition or temporary place for them?

KY: Well, at the time I think there were some people who I think felt this might be permanent but you also sensed there were groups of people who were here temporarily, they were eventually returning to the West Coast. And many of the people did return. I don't think that some people there were who felt that way.

TI: And in terms of housing, did the Resettlers Committee, did they recommend certain areas for where Japanese should go live?

KY: Well, as you are aware, the WRA told us that we were not to develop ethnic communities. So there were people who lived on the south side, there was an area on the south side where many of the Japanese lived. And then there were many who lived on the north side but there was not a large community of Japanese. They were all over, particularly on the north side.

TI: And so the WRA had this policy of not again I guess creating sort of a I think the term they might use is ghetto or place.

KY: Right, exactly.

TI: So what was the relationship of the WRA and the Resettlers, the Chicago Resettlers? Was there a direct connection in terms of either funding or personnel between the two organizations?

KY: You know, I don't know. I really don't know about that. But one of the things I know is that Chicago was a very welcoming city for many of the resettlers. There were many businesses and there were organizations in the city that... and the Chicago Resettlers had connections with that helped in the settlement of the Japanese here in Chicago.

TI: And what would be examples of other organizations that they were connected with that would help?

KY: Well, like they called it... I wish I had done some research on this because there were religious, social organizations, religious organizations that helped I think in enabling the resettlers to assimilate and integrate into the community and made places available.

TI: Okay, good. How about some of the other established Japanese American organizations like the JACL, were they playing an active role during this time period?

KY: I think so but see, I'm not an active JACL member. So I am sure they did but I can't state in what way.

TI: Okay, and I'm curious did very many of the, I guess, soldiers returning from Europe primarily, were they coming through Chicago also, the 442 guys and things like that?

KY: I'm sure. I have friends who were in the service and have made their homes here.

TI: There's one other Chicago organization that I've seen and I was curious about, the Nisei Vue, do you know anything about the Nisei Vue, it's sort of glossy magazine?

KY: Oh, yes, they did have one. Well, there were a number of publications, the Chicago Scene is another one I think. There were a number of publications here in the city but I can't tell you, name them for you.

TI: Yeah, I was just curious because that seemed to be kind of a Chicago thing in terms of these glossy magazines and I was just curious about that.

KY: As a community, I think Chicago has developed, they did a number of things.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Okay, so let's go back to your life, and so you're at the YWCA and how long did you work at the YWCA?

KY: I worked for the YWCA for eight years. And I felt that I wanted to go to college and I felt that it was time for me to do this and so I started undergraduate college in 1952 and started at Navy Pier. This was a time when many of the soldiers were coming back from the war and going to college and so they made a branch of the University of Illinois at Navy Pier.

TI: Just for, need more space.

KY: So I went to Navy Pier for two years and then I went to... went down state for three years and then finished up at the University of Illinois, UIC one year, and I got my masters in social work.

TI: Good, okay, and before we go on with your career I just wanted to sort of backtrack a little bit in terms of the family. So when you left Topaz, your parents and your sister were there. So when the war ended where did they go?

KY: Well, my sister left camp and she went to a college in Wisconsin, Waukesha College, and got her degree, BS degree. And then my parents came out to Chicago in 1945 and came to live with me. And then they were able to get jobs at Curtiss Candy Company, that's where a number of Japanese were working at the time, so both of them were able to get a job.

TI: And earlier we talked about the house in Richmond and how you had this realtor taking care of it. So whatever happened to the house?

KY: Well, that house we were able to sell and then eventually with that money we were able to buy a building for ourselves here in Chicago.

TI: Okay, so you and your parents stayed in, or resettled to Chicago, got it. Now going back to your career -- well, before we go there I just wanted to ask, how did your parents, how were they changed by the war years when you think about before and then after, they came to Chicago. Did you see differences in them?

KY: I don't know. Again, our parents are not very articulate, they keep a lot of their thoughts to themselves. But I really felt that it was... they had to start, they lost... we had nothing and they had to start all over again. But I felt that they never complained, I think that they were determined to make a life for themselves again and they worked very hard to do that. And at the end they were able to... with the money that they got from the sale of our home in Richmond, to buy a building and make a home again. So I really felt that they were very determined that they're going to survive and to make a new life because they really had nothing.

TI: And they were able to work at the Curtiss Candy Company and you mentioned there were other Japanese who worked there. So was this something that... is your sense that the Curtiss Candy Company really helped the community by offering these jobs?

KY: Oh, yes. Yes, there were a number of Japanese and there were a number of companies that helped the Japanese resettle.

TI: Do you think they went out of their way to help the Japanese?

KY: I think they extended themselves, I think so.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So going back to your life, so you received your masters in social work. So what did you do with that?

KY: Well, I got a job after graduation and I got a job as a social worker in a children's hospital in Chicago.

TI: And how long did you do this?

KY: I worked there for thirty-three and a half years.

TI: Okay, for a long time.

KY: Long time.

TI: And during this time, how involved were you with the Japanese community?

KY: While I was in school I wasn't active, I should go back. Out of my experience with the Chicago YWCA I became a Christian. And my family was Buddhist, although they were not what we call practicing Buddhists, but Buddhist in the sense that whenever there was a memorial or certain things you go to the Buddhist temple to give respect and go through the ritual. But out of my experience at the YWCA I became a Christian so I became a member of a Christian church here in Chicago and got very involved. It's a Methodist church and so I was very involved in the church. But during the time I was going to school I really was not active at all in anything here in the city, but after I graduated I became very involved in the Chicago, the Japanese American Service Committee and was on the board for over thirty years and continue to be active with that organization.

TI: So tell me about the Japanese American Service Committee, thirty years you're on the board, you mentioned earlier that how Chicago Resettlers was kind of the precursor to this. So I guess tell me what the mission of the JSC is, I mean what was the purpose of the organization after this resettlement period?

KY: Well, they had different services. One of their... eventually one of their services was serving the aging population, they had a workshop which they had to dissolve because it was not... financially it was not working out. But eventually the agency has evolved to provide day care services and counseling services, cultural programs, so currently they have programs like helping people, they call it "out of the home." But having senior citizens, rather than remain at home, come to a center where they have different activities to get them to not just sit at home but stimulate their brain, mind and physical. And currently I am... when I was active on the board I was the program chairman and developed different types of program, currently I am the coordinator of the Japanese cooking classes. And I'm not the instructor but I work with the staff to carry on the classes.

TI: And do all these programs happen at the JSC?

KY: Uh-huh.

TI: I was thinking as you were talking on the west coast some of these same activities are often handled by the churches because in like places like Seattle before the war there was like the Blaine Methodist which is a Japanese American and Japanese Presby, Japanese Baptist, are there similar church organizations in Chicago?

KY: Oh, yes, we have a Methodist church, we have a Presbyterian church, we have a UCC church.

TI: That are primarily Japanese American?

KY: Yeah, the ones that I mentioned. There are other Japanese churches too but these are the three largest. There is a Baptist but it's I think a small group. So there are these churches that serve the Japanese community.

TI: And do they provide similar services?

KY: No, I think some of the churches are beginning to develop services for the aged in working with the Service Committee but many of them are more church related activities I think.

TI: And how about the Buddhist church? Is there an active Buddhist church?

KY: Oh, yes, there's a Midwest Buddhist and there's the Buddhist temple of Chicago, which are the two largest. And then they have the various sects have groups, they're not as large.

TI: Now, I'm wondering because I mean I'm guessing that these Japanese American churches emerged after the war because there wasn't a real prewar community here. But they had to sort of counter, I was thinking back earlier when you mentioned how the WRA said, okay, so can go out there but don't kind of congregate but they had to then I guess counter that by all of a sudden you have a Methodist Japanese American church. I mean, was that difficult, I guess, for these things to happen? It seemed like in the case of west coast, they were all established before the war so it pretty much after the war they just became hubs naturally. But these had to emerge from nothing and run counter to what the government wanted in some ways.

KY: Yes, I know. It's sort of contradictory but there wasn't any... we didn't sense that anybody was upset. I think what they probably didn't want you to do is like congregate on the corner and that kind of thing. But I don't think any of us really felt... groups, there were athletic groups, there were social groups, there were girls clubs groups, they didn't seem to... there was nothing anybody said, "You can't do that." So that see for my point of view I think the WRA was very cruel to impose that. I understand, but, you know, when we were all removed from our homes and then we were supposed to not be supportive of each other, I mean, it really was not very kind to say you shouldn't congregate. That's just my own opinion, but I know from reading material that they didn't want large groups of Japanese in the community.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So thinking about... in Chicago many Japanese Americans came and many of them returned to the West Coast. And I'm curious in terms of one, your perceptions of the differences between the Japanese Americans who chose to stay in Chicago and then the Japanese Americans who went back to West Coast. Are there any differences between the two groups, generally, I realize individually sure there's these differences but as a group are there ways of characterizing or generalizing between the two?

KY: Well, I sort of feel like that those of us who stayed in Chicago as I mentioned, we're, all of this is very new but when you look at the West Coast things are established and there are some things there that I think prejudices and discrimination. And also maybe even on the part of the Japanese American, hesitancy to maybe undertake some things which they would like to. But I sort of feel like those of us who remained here, that we are not... although we live in a world of discrimination, racial injustice, but I don't think that, weren't not carrying, there's a lot more freedom. If we wanted to do some things, I think we would just go ahead and do it. It's freeing us from our past so that we are venturing into some new territory that has a lot of potential and possibility. I don't know if that's correct but I feel a more freedom and less restrictions maybe.

TI: That's interesting, it strikes me as something earlier you said. How when you first went to Tanforan you recognized that there were some maybe unspoken rules or norms that existed in the community. And it sounds like in the same way, Japanese Americans who went back to the West Coast although there was some kind of sense of maybe safety or something familiar I guess maybe on the West Coast. There were also those same rules and norms that perhaps were a little more constraining in terms of that they were doing, so that's interesting.

KY: I think that... I don't know, you would probably have a better idea but I think some of us feel somewhat free to pursue something maybe we wouldn't, we might be inhibited to do so if we lived in a community on the West Coast, I don't know.

TI: And I'm just curious, it's not like what you're saying is... I'm asking as a paper, as an academic paper like that, I'm just curious how people think. But in terms of just now recovering from the war experience, maybe you can't say one's better than the other but it sounds like what you're saying in Chicago and people who didn't go back, it was perhaps maybe easier, more freeing to be here than going back to the West Coast, to recover from what happened during the war.

KY: I don't know, that's kind of hard to say because depending on the circumstances... I don't know.

TI: Now when you think of the JSC, so you have programs for the aging, how would you... what's your sense in terms of the aging population? So these were individuals who had gone through the war years, many of them had gone through the camps, how well they've coped with that traumatic experience during the war years.

KY: My feeling is that on a whole they have done well. But you know, my perception is that although we live in this community, many of the Japanese have not integrated themselves, the Niseis particularly have not really integrated themselves as much into the community, that they still maintain their old ways and they're always on the margin rather than being a part of the community. Now the second, the third generation, because their children are going to school in the community, they have integrated themselves more, but I feel that many of the Niseis have really not integrated as much.

TI: And so they tend to, it's kind of interesting, when I have asked other Midwesterners, what you just said would be something that they would say about the West Coast Japanese. That by going back to the coast to a place like Los Angeles or San Francisco, they were able to stay more in their, be a little more clannish, a little more cliquish, but that they were forced by being in Chicago to be more integrated vis a vis the West Coast Japanese Americans. But what you're saying is even in Chicago they still kind of stay kind of in their own groups.

KY: Oh, yes. I think so, that you would think living in the environment that they are, that they would be more but many of the Niseis don't. They just belong to their church groups, but within, but they are less likely to have membership in the community organizations, that kind of thing, more support.

TI: Is it because in places like Chicago there are... is it a perception or are there actual external forces that perhaps make Japanese Americans feel less invited or wanted in these organizations?

KY: I think that my feeling is that the Japanese, the Niseis we're talking mainly, that they just don't feel... I guess the best way to describe it would be the mentality of a second class citizen. That they don't really feel that "this is my community." For instance, I live on the north side of Chicago, and for me, I like to feel I'm a member of that community and I'm interested in what's going on and will support different things. But I don't think that's the type of perception or thinking many of the Niseis have but they will just stick to the Japanese organizations.

TI: Fascinating, interesting. Yeah, this is all interesting as I go to different communities. I just try to get a flavor of each community and how they've coped especially after the war.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: Anything else that we should talk about while I have you here? I'm sure I'm missing lots of things in terms of your career or other organizations I think I have the Heiwa Terrace as another activity, this I guess is a senior home?

KY: Senior residence, yes, and I've been involved with the Chicago Japanese American Historical Society as well.

TI: So tell me about that. How did that get started?

KY: Well, I think there's always been an interest in preserving the history of Japanese Americans here in the city. And also I think it's awfully hard to separate our whole experience of the internment and the evacuation and so I was one of the initial members that felt that it was important to preserve that and to continue to collect material to... so that's how, you know, an archives.

TI: And the Chicago Japanese American Historical Society started... I just went on the website was looking around doing some research. You're also involved with the JSC, and the JSC has something called the Legacy Center so why two different organizations? Why didn't this come out of the Legacy Center at JSC?

KY: It's again this whole issue of maintaining your own identity, and there's been a hope that we could combine all of this together but it's not been possible. And so I don't know eventually if that will come but the Service Committee felt it was important for us to establish a legacy center and so it's doing... there's overlap.

TI: Overlap and from your perspective maybe a hope in the future that they might work together more.

KY: Yeah, that there can be one organization that would. And by doing that I think that you mobilize support and finance and maybe... see, our dream has been to have a building sometime but that takes a lot of money. That we could have like a museum here in Chicago.

TI: Yeah, I think it would be interesting because again I think that would be very different than a West Coast museum about the Japanese American experience because in Chicago it is very different than say a San Jose experience or a Los Angeles or San Francisco or Seattle. Good, okay, so I'm at the end of my questions. Is there anything that you want to mention or talk about that we haven't covered yet?

KY: Oh, let's see, I can't think of anything.

TI: Okay. Well, so, Kiyo, thank you so much for doing this interview. I've learned a lot, yeah, it just fascinates me as I go to different communities and what's coming clearer to me is how the experience of starting something new in Chicago is a very different experience than returning to a place like Seattle and in some ways just restarting what was already there.

KY: Right.

TI: And I think it takes different types of skills and I think it probably even shapes who or how and what happens to the community because of that. That what I'm just starting to get my fingers around.

KY: Yes, because I really feel that... I had a thought here but that there... it is unique and I think that we... there are lots of stories that -- oh, I know what I was going to say. See, one of the things, yeah, this is what I was going to say, one of the things that is unique about Chicago is that we're scattered all over. There are people who are living in the suburbs, there are people who live in the city and it's very difficult to get people together. They want... for instance we had a activity at the Service Committee and it was a event that brought the community together. Well, to put on a program like that, it takes a lot of manpower and support. Well, we said, we don't have it so we'll discontinue it, and we did, and the people were very very upset. "You can't do that." But that what makes it whereas on the West Coast I think I get the feeling that people live in communities but we're so scattered that it's very, very difficult to keep the financial support and the participation support here in the city. That's what makes it difficult, I mean, all of us should be supporting an agency like the Japanese American Service Committee because it is for the Japanese community but it's very difficult to convince people of that.

TI: So looking in the future what will happen to the JSC and the Japanese American community?

KY: Well, that's a good question. I think this is the struggle of the agency to begin to define what they need to be doing. I think just taking the Legacy Program, this is something that all of us need to be invested in because this is going to tell our story but it's very difficult to get people to see this vision and the need for it.

TI: Okay, well, I think this is a good place to stop the interview so, Kiyo, thank you so much.

KY: Okay, well I hope it was helpful.

TI: Oh, it was very helpful, thank you.