Densho Digital Archive - Miyo Minnie Uratsu Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: Okay, today is Wednesday, May 25, 2011. We are at the Woodfin Hotel at Emeryville, California. We will be interviewing Miyo Minnie Nakae Uratsu. We have in the room her husband, Marvin Uratsu, Dana Hoshide is on the video camera and I will be interviewing. My name is Martha Nakagawa. So Miyo-san, let's start with your father's name?

MU: Yoshichika, Yoshichika, Nakae.

MN: Nakae. And your mother's name?

MU: Tomeo Okui Nakae.

MN: And which prefecture were they from?

MU: Shiga-ken.

MN: I don't know a lot of people from that prefecture.

MU: No, I don't think there are too many.

MN: Do you know why your father came out to the United States?

MU: It was suggested I think by one of his teachers that he had where he was learning English to go to America and be a farmer. And I think the teacher had thought that it would be nice to have the young men from Japan go to America and I think to tie the two countries together closer. And that's how we felt the teacher had maybe suggested that to him. and it seemed like my father liked to do gardening, farming type of a thing. And so I guess that's what interested him into coming to America.

MN: Do you know if in Japan his family were farmers?

MU: No, his family was not a farmer, I don't know what his dad did. His mother had silk worms up in the attic, my mother had mentioned that when my mother was staying with them. But when my father would return from school, he seemed to like to go out to the field and so they sort of nicknamed him "Dirt farmer." I guess that's a term they used in those days. So he seemed to be interested in things growing.

MN: Do you know what year he came to the United States?

MU: No, I don't know that. I should have had that information for you.

MN: Do you know where he came, his port of entry? Was it Seattle, San Francisco?

MU: That I don't know.

MN: But somehow he ended up in the central California area.

MU: Northern, Newcastle.

MN: Newcastle. So that's considered northern California, not central California?

MU: I think that's considered northern California. It is north of Sacramento.

MN: And your father is very unique because he was an Issei but he was able to purchase property. Can you share with us how he was able to do that?

MU: I don't know where he got the money, he probably maybe had to ask friends to borrow some money because he was not able to call my mother right away so that's the reason my mother stayed with her mother-in-law, my father's mother. And in that house at that time she remembers this silk worm upstairs up in the attic and she helped her mother-in-law with that. And when he was financially able, he called my mother over.

MN: And what year did he purchase his property?

MU: If was before the alien land law which was I think 1913, so it could be very close to that time. He must have had foresight or maybe he heard that, what was going to be happening, so he wanted to purchase the land.

MN: Do you know how much he had to kind of bring together from loans and from his own money?

MU: I have no idea. I never asked.

MN: Do you know how much property he was able to purchase at that time?

MU: The ranch itself was fifty acres I think. He can verify it, Marvin, no?

MN: Does that sound right, Marvin, fifty acres?

Marvin Uratsu: Yeah, somewhere around there.

MN: That's a lot of property to purchase for a Issei back in those days. Do you know how your --

MU: Excuse me... I should have studied this before if I knew you're going to ask these questions I could've looked it over. It must have been twenty acres when I visualize the property there, fifty would be fifty football fields.

MN: That's still a lot.

MU: I think it was twenty.

MN: And do you know how... I know 'cause you were not born yet so I know it's a little hard for you to also answer these questions but do you know how he repaid the people who --

MU: No, I have no idea. I never asked.

MN: Do you know how long your mother had to stay with her mother-in-law's place before she was able to come to the United States?

MU: I don't know that.

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Let's talk about you now then. Where were you born?

MU: Newcastle, California.

MN: And were you delivered by a sambasan?

MU: Yes.

MN: At your home in Newcastle?

MU: Yes.

MN: What year were you born?

MU: 1929.

MN: And what is your birth name?

MU: Miyo Nakae.

MN: Did you ever adopt an Anglicized name?

MU: Minnie, yes.

MN: And when did you start calling yourself Minnie?

MU: When we left Tule Lake we were sent to Heart Mountain. My oldest brother had moved to Idaho and he came after us, that's my mother and my brother above me, to go to Idaho and that was in Fruitland, Idaho. He leased an apple orchard, the Red Delicious, and that's why we had moved, my mother, my brother and myself to Fruitland, Idaho and of course I went to high school there. And it was after school had begun for the year and the teacher would say, "We have a new student in our class, her name is 'Maiyo.'" And I was very shy and I would say, "Miyo," and being high school you change every hour and then I went to the next class and then that teacher would say, "We have a new student in our class, her name is 'Maiyo,'" and I would again have to say, "Miyo." And from there we had moved out to Utah, the Tooele Ordnance Depot and again I started school after the September first day of school and so the teacher would introduce new students and she would say, "We have a new student, her name is 'Maiyo,'" and it happened every class. And I was always embarrassed about having to have to correct the pronunciation of my name and the teachers were very nice about it of course. But when we left Utah to go back home I decided, enough of that. And so I gave myself the name Minnie and I thought they probably would not mispronounce the name Minnie, thinking Minnie Mouse and that's when I took that name on my own. I didn't ask my mother and I just on my own decided I'm not going to be embarrassed anymore.

MN: So up until you left for camp, you didn't have any problems at your school in Newcastle of your teachers mispronouncing your name?

MU: No, they were used to I think Japanese names for the first names, although I don't know of any other Miyo there as I was going there. My sister was Chiyo so maybe that had helped.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: And going back to your childhood now, how many children did your parents have?

MU: I had a sister who passed away, I don't remember her, she was maybe two years old. So I had three brothers and one sister, I'm the youngest.

MN: And how old were you when you started to do chores around the ranch?

MU: At what age... it's hard for me to remember exactly what age. The chores I think in many ranches or farms they're sort of handed down according your age and as you graduate into the more harder chores. My chore was to take care of the chickens, feed the chickens. It might have been the first chores, no, feed the cats, we had the cats and dogs. And I would go out and put the cat food, they're usually table scraps, we never bought cat food or dog food we always gave table scraps. If there weren't enough we'd used old bread and put some canned milk, Carnation canned milk on it and that would be what we feed the cats and dogs. And of course if the cats were still hungry they would have to go out after some mice out in the barn where there was hay and so there would be mice there.

MN: And then when did you start having to tend to the ofuro?

MU: I don't remember what age. I do remember having to do that before camp. When the war broke out I was twelve and my birthday's in May and so when we went to camp in July I was thirteen. But coming back to your question, the ofuro I don't remember what age I was, I'm sure it was when my mother must have felt that it was safe for me to strike the match to burn the newspaper which is under the kindling.

MN: And what did you use for kindling?

MU: The branches that were pruned. We had fruit trees so the fruit trees are pruned in the spring and then they're put together, bundled up in wire and then they're stacked in the area near the back ofuro and we would take from there and that would be the kindling. And from there it would be the tree trunks that they had uprooted and some of them were pretty big and so I would have to break them with an axe. So I would do that. I felt pretty secure in my jobs on the ranch like breaking the big stumps with the axe, it was good exercise I'm sure.

MN: It seems really dangerous.

MU: It could have been dangerous but I had no accident that I remember.

MN: So what kind of fruit trees did your family grow?

MU: The stone fruits, plums and peaches and later in the year the pears would come out. And then the quince would come out... a variety of plums.

MN: And were these fruits shipped fresh or did you dry them on your property?

MU: Most of them were sent out fresh to the... we would call them packing house in the town of Newcastle. But that's after it's packed at home, we had a big packing shed where my mother, my sister and we would hire usually ladies to pack according to size into these boxes into baskets, into boxes. And the finished covered box would be taken to the, they call it the packing shed in Newcastle. And the reason they call it packing shed because some of the farmers would take the fruit in the box directly to the packing shed and they would hire packers to pack it there at the packing shed. But in our case and in some of the ranches it's packed at home, saves the labor costs I guess.

MN: So you had a lot of seasonal workers I guess during that time?

MU: Yes, they were hired maybe three or four during the season.

MN: And these seasonal workers were they the local hakujin or were they Filipinos or other Japanese Americans?

MU: There were Japanese, maybe some from Japan and we did have some Niseis who wanted summer work because it is seasonal, the production is in the summer time. Of course when the trees were pruned we did have workers helping us too but I think mostly from Japan.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: Now when you were two and half years old you lost your father. Can you share with us what happened?

MU: I don't remember anything about my father. And they said at the time I was in diapers so I would jokingly say I'm a slow learner because now they train the babies, the younger children, sooner than that. But I really don't remember my father at all. My brother who was, he passed away, he was two years older than I and he remembers my father but I don't.

MN: And what happened to your father?

MU: He was assassinated.

MN: Can you share with us what you had been told? I know you were too young but later on when you got older how did you hear... how was your father killed?

MU: He was coming home from a community meeting and because he knew English and could read English, and sometimes I think he was interpreting some of the farmer's leases or whatever. And for the community, the Issei community, I guess he was active in that group. And he would go to meetings and on his way home we have a long driveway from the house to the county road and I was told of course because I don't remember, there was some kind of wiring across the road and so he stopped his car and got out and he was shot. And I think I had heard later there were also some nails, nails put onto the roadway to the house.

MN: You said your father was shot. Did anybody hear the gunshots?

MU: Evidently my mother and a ranch hand, a Japanese fellow, and my brother who was thirteen at the time, he's the oldest, heard the gunshot. And so they went immediately to that area and it was towards the entrance of the long road to the house.

MN: And then what happened to your father? Did they take him to the nearest hospital?

MU: That I don't know. I assume, but from what I heard I think he passed away immediately from the gunshots. I did not ask my mother and it's something that we just didn't ask my mother about because I'm sure we felt that it was painful for her and it would be painful for us.

MN: Was the person who ever did this caught?

MU: No, but my mother seemed to have had information, some information about him and it seemed that he had moved to the Los Angeles area.

MN: So was there something controversial that your father was working on that would have somebody go out and kill your father? Or was there a reason why somebody would want to kill your father?

MU: I don't know that. There was discrimination as you know, and we should not come to such conclusions but my mother did not want to pursue it because she had to exert all her energy in raising the five children and carrying on the ranch work. And like I said, even between my siblings and I we just didn't ask, we didn't ask each other. I guess when something is painful you sort of put it aside.

MN: Now your mother is now in charge of five children. Did she ever think about returning to Japan?

MU: She was invited by her older brother to come back to Japan, he said, "Come back to Japan. Don't stay where it's dangerous for you and your family." But she had made up her mind that she wanted to stay here in America. She and her husband had worked hard to clear, dynamite the pine trees to clear the land to start the ranch. And she felt that her children are United States citizens and she would want to keep them here in America.

MN: Now growing up, did you have a neighbor or somebody who became a father figure to you?

MU: My brother, we're nine years apart and he more or less became a father figure. My mother would consult with him.

MN: Did you miss not having a father?

MU: In a way I sometimes would think, I wonder how it would be to have a father, for my mother to have a husband with her.

MN: Now did your mother ever remarry?

MU: No, I think that was way out of the question for her.

MN: But it's so difficult for a single female at that time, especially with five children to make a living.

MU: That's true.

MN: Your mother really must have went through a lot.

MU: She had to exert all her energy in keeping the ranch going.

MN: Well, thank you for sharing that story with us.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: I want to ask you a little bit more about yourself now. When you were growing up, did you attend Japanese language school?

MU: Yes, we did.

MN: How often did you go?

MU: It was held Sundays.

MN: Sundays. And where was the Japanese school located?

MU: Newcastle. There was a community building there it had a hall they would show Japanese movies upstairs and there were two or three rooms downstairs and that's where a teacher would come and we would spend the day there. We would take obento, and before the Japanese school began there was a Sunday school, a Christian Sunday school and I attended that too.

MN: This is one of the few Japanese language schools that I've heard was given on Sunday. Was there a reason for why it was on Sunday?

MU: Well, like in Penryn, a town nearby, country town, they went after their public school class and I think that is what happened in the city. And I think mainly because of the... they lived near that area whereas Newcastle, we're pretty spread apart and that would mean our parents would have to take us every day after the public school, leave us there and go get us and for some it would be quite a distance. But I don't know, to answer your question, I don't know the reason for it but I'm just thinking it's a little more convenient I think for everyone to go just on Sundays which might mean that we learned less than people who went every day after their public school classes.

MN: So, let me see, you said Sunday you had Sunday school and then you had a break and then you had the Japanese school?

MU: Not really a break, it's just right after. I don't exactly know the time but I think it was nine to ten, the Sunday school. I don't think it was half an hour, it could've been but I don't know the details. But I do remember taking obento.

MN: Do you remember what you took in your obento?

MU: Not really. Sandwiches, probably sandwiches in my obento box because I'm the youngest in the family and my oldest was my brother, nine years older, and I'm sure sandwiches came into play more than onigiri, onigiri from my oldest brother down to me. I know I took sandwiches to the elementary school, I do remember that.

MN: Now you were going to Sunday school. Did your mother have any problems of you attending a Christian Sunday school?

MU: No.

MN: But was your mother a Christian?

MU: Not at that time. Her father in Japan was a Buddhist minister.

MN: Now how did you feel about attending Japanese language school?

MU: I didn't have any special likes or dislikes. It was just one of the things that the family did and that's what we did and we had homework, my mother was a teacher in Japan so she would make us do our homework. And we would try to quickly do our homework because we could not read the Sunday papers, the comics, until we did our homework. I do remember that and I guess my brother would go into town to get the Sunday funnies, the Sunday paper that had the Sunday funnies. And we were not allowed to look at the funnies until we finished our homework. My mother was quite a disciplinarian and I think we behaved pretty well. I don't remember spankings.

MN: And you mentioned your mother had taught in Japan. Did she teach at the language school in Newcastle?

MU: I think she did because, not when I was going, but when it probably when it started maybe she was active when it started, because she learned to drive a car. And those days evidently from what my brother tells me there are several gears and so she would drive the Model T Ford, I guess, to Newcastle and she would park it so that she would not have to back up. She didn't know how or did not want to back up with several gears, you have to manipulate both feet changing the gears with the clutch and so I remember my brother saying that she would park the car so she would not have to back up. So that's when she would go to Newcastle to teach the Japanese school but when I was going she was not teaching.

MN: Did your mother, was she part of the group that started the Japanese school at Newcastle?

MU: I don't know for a fact if she did, I would think so. She was the organizer type of person and especially Japanese school if she had gone to Japanese college in Japan in Otsu to become a Japanese, a teacher in Japan. I would think she probably would have helped.

MN: It sounds to me then your mother was very educated as a female in Japan and probably came from a upper, middle upper class family in Japan. Does that sound about right?

MU: Her father was a minister and I do recall my mother mentioning that when she went to the college with friends that she met some of her classmates would talk about a certain kimono they were going to wear at a party or at an occasion. And so my mother being a girl was interested in that, and when she said something to her mother about so and so bought a new dress, whatever. My mother had said her mother said, "It would either be your education or another dress for you." And so I'm thinking that the father and mother, they were not really well off. They had sacrificed to send her to teachers college and she had mentioned that to us. That when she was living with us, she lived with us for twenty years and she said, "At this age I'm really appreciating what my parents did for me, the education." So my mother highly recommended education for all of us. She said, "You put it in your brain and no one can take it away from you," especially what happened to us and to the Japanese Americans who had property and belongings. We were very fortunate but as you know, they lost all their belongings but she said if you put it in your head they can't take it away from you so she was highly motivated in getting all of us, five of us, educated. But her parents did sacrifice for her to get her education. She wanted to go to college.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: Now your mother is raising five children by herself so she must have been very busy. But did she have any time to get involved in any other Japanese organizations?

MU: There was a young ladies organization called Shojokai and my sister was in it and other young Nisei ladies because I know they're photographs of the group. Maybe there may have been fifteen or twenty of them, they wore a white dress and a red tie and I've seen the pictures of that. And my mother would be standing in the background as the helper or whatever and other friends too, the Issei ladies. And there was that group that I do remember. As to exactly what they did I don't remember.

MN: But at that time you were too young to join the Shojokai?

MU: Yes, I'm four years younger than my sister.

MN: Now which grammar school did you attend?

MU: Gold Hill, two-room grammar school, we walked to it.

MN: Was literally only two rooms?

MU: Two rooms, yes.

MN: And how many teachers?

MU: Two teachers.

MN: Were they hakujin teachers?

MU: Yes, both of them were hakujin teachers.

MN: And how big was the student body?

MU: In the whole school, per grade there may have been maybe eight, so four classes, it's through eighth grade so four times... that would be about thirty, eight times four would be thirty two maybe, first through fourth. There was no kindergarten and then four, five, six, seven, eight, eighth grade, that was the grammar school.

MN: And what was the ethnic make-up of the grammar school?

MU: Mostly Caucasians and Niseis like myself. Percentage-wise maybe there may have been a fourth, thirty percent maybe of the whole school. Because my sister, my brother, the three of us in the family and they're other families that had maybe two going, I mean, from first grade through eighth grade. So it may have been more than a quarter.

MN: Now did your mother enroll you in Japanese cultural classes like ocha or ohana or Nihonbuyo?

MU: No, I guess I was too young. My sister did go to tea ceremony class in Penryn. Issei lady taught it so she did go to that because I remember her going to it and then there are photographs that we have of the group.

MN: Now in Penryn, did they teach the Urasenke or the Omotesenke?

MU: I don't know.

MN: How about Nihonbuyo or other forms of odori, did your sister, older sisters, enroll in classes?

MU: Yes, she did but I don't remember too much about it. I don't know if I was interested in it, if I were totally interested in it I'm sure I would remember. "My time's going to come I'm going to learn odori or the tea ceremony." I don't have too many recollections as to that.

MN: How about your older brothers, were they in kendo or judo?

MU: Not that I remember, no.

MN: Did you remember your mother dressing you up in a kimono?

MU: I did have one because we would have parades in Auburn and my sister and her friends would wear a kimono and I would stand there and watch the layers put on and then they got to put on some lipstick and something in their hair. I remember watching but I don't have that little kimono now so I don't know where it is. There was one kimono my sister had and we have sent that to her, my sister passed away so I'm sure her three daughters have it.

MN: Do you know if your mother sewed that kimono herself?

MU: No, as far as I know I don't think so although my mother sewed all our dresses.

MN: But you think it was shipped from Japan?

MU: I think so.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Did your family get involved in any kind of kenjinkai? I don't imagine the Shiga-ken kenjinkai was big enough to have a kenjinkai in your area but did your mother get involved in any other kenjinkais?

MU: Not that I remember. She being a Shiga-ken, although kenjinkai could I guess involve other kens.

MN: I would imagine.

MU: I'm not too sure how those ken groups organize or how they work. I'm not sure. She did... we did go to the Buddhist church, to the funeral services. I don't think that Buddhist church in Penryn had Buddhist Sunday school, they may have, I don't know about it. Like I said, I went to the Christian one that was before the Japanese school. Now if the Christian Sunday school was not held at the Newcastle Japanese school on Sundays, I don't think I would have gone to a Christian Sunday school at a church because my mother was a Buddhist until after the war. And I don't remember going to Sunday school, a Buddhist Sunday school in Penryn. And I don't know if they had it, they may not have had it. But I do remember going to that, the temple to church when my mother would go to some funeral services and my being the youngest I would be with her. I remember playing with the juzu. [Laughs]

MN: How about like Obon? Did you go to different... where was the Obon held?

MU: I don't remember Obon being held in Penryn. They may have had Obon, I'm trying to remember my sister maybe dressing up in a yukata or Obon type of kimono and I don't remember that. What I remember like I say was her being in the parade in Auburn when they did do some odori and they participated in the parade.

MN: Now what was this parade for?

MU: Community parade. I don't know which holiday it was for but they did have one with the Nisei gals with the kimono. I don't remember if they were on a platform or if they had to walk a certain distance. Maybe Auburn being a small city it probably was not a long distance for them to walk if they had to walk in the kimono and in their slippers.

MN: Now did your Newcastle community have a annual picnic?

MU: The picnic that I remember would be a community picnic with all the other towns, Penryn. But what I remember more is after the war, the picnics after the war, but I know they had some before the war because I remember going to them. And there would be races and I remember my sister having a bunny outfit where she had bunny ears because I'm thinking back looking at the albums, the photograph albums, and she had some, I think some kind of goggle glasses and so there are some people behind her. I think what was happening, they were on the stage and walking around the stage so I do remember that, so that was before the war. And my sister and her Nisei friends would also at that time dress in kimono. I would see photographs of them lined up and then they're taking pictures. And this is before the war, so as to whether Newcastle just had their own at that time and Penryn had their own at that time and Loomis, I can't remember that. But I do know after the war we had a community picnic. I remember after Marvin and I got married, before we had children we went and got to see many of our numerous friends in Newcastle, Penryn friends. So it was quite organized, I think the community quite a few Japanese Americans lived in Placer County and so they had organized. There was a JACL that was very active.

MN: Do you know who organized these community picnics before the war?

MU: I don't remember if there was a JACL before the war. The picnics after the war I think the JACL, the Placer JACL, my brother was active in that JACL, and I can visualize him on the stage taking part in the picnic, whatever he was doing for the picnic.

MN: But before the war, your brother was not involved in the JACL?

MU: I don't know if they had a JACL before the war. They must have had it because the war was 1941 and the picnics that we had, whether the JACL was the main organizer, the sponsor, I don't remember that. But I do remember going because I enjoyed the food that my mother would make. Osushi being one of my favorite foods yet she would... my mother was a good cook and so she would make the osushi and the picnic obento and jubako and I remember those things before the war.

MN: Did your mother have to spend days to make the obento food?

MU: I don't know how many days she had spent to make the food.

MN: When you say sushi I'm thinking your mother must have made the makisushi?

MU: Yes, nori maki, yes.

MN: Nori maki, and what other foods did she make?

MU: What are the other foods, you mean before the war or after the war?

MN: Before the war.

MU: Before the war, fish was one of the staples that we had. The Goto grocery store in Penryn would send the vendor out to the country. I think that is probably occurred in many of the countries, California. And he would mostly bring fish, fresh fish, and otofu and Mrs. Goto would make the otofu and I'm still am saying to Marvin, the otofu that we have now does not have as much taste as the otofu that Mrs. Goto had made. And I know we ate a lot of otofu but coming back to the picnic food, I think she must have made the usual food, and the inarisushi of course and chicken and takenoko, she would nishime type of food for the box and she... we had a good vegetable garden, she liked to grow vegetables. Being a good cook she always liked to have fresh vegetables, daikon, and she would make narazuke and nukamiso for our ochazuke. And being a good cook she made a variety of Japanese food for us which I enjoyed.

MN: So your mother, did she... your family grew daikon?

MU: Yes.

MN: Did she grow things like gobo and nasubi?

MU: Yes, cucumber, green pepper, tomato, string beans, I'd have to go pick the string beans and string them before they had strings.

MN: Did your mom make like the takuan?

MU: She didn't make takuan, I don't think it was popular at that time. It's after the war when my sister-in-law made it but she would make the daikon, the tsukemono, the daikon tsukemono.

MN: Who had to mix the nukamiso every day?

MU: She did, she would put the old rice in there, she says you have to touch it every day. And do you know she took some of that to camp? She took it to camp from Tule Lake to Heart Mountain and when we relocated to Idaho and Utah she kept the core. It's like the sourdough starter, so she kept that so after the war she made more of it with the old rice in there with the nuka and Marvin still talks about the tsukemono she used to make when she had lived with us for twenty years. The daikon, delicious.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: Let me go to Pearl Harbor now. And what were you doing on that Sunday, December 7, 1941?

MU: I distinctly still remember where I was on the ranch. I was near the ofuro, the bathhouse. I don't know what I was doing. I don't know who told me but I do remember that day that I heard that there's war.

MN: Now you were very young did you understand when they told you Pearl Harbor was bombed, as I think you were twelve at the time?

MU: Yes.

MN: Did it, for you how did you comprehend this?

MU: I had mixed feelings and a feeling of, "Oh, what's going to happen?" Because my mother was communicating with her relatives in Japan very closely. And Japan being her country and my country too, I had a sense of a fear what's going to happen. What's going to happen to us being Japanese and how will we be accepted or treated from the people around because we're Japanese and America is now at war with Japan. So there's a sense of fear and a deep sense for my mother and how she would take it, what will she do, what will happen to us, what will we do. It never came to my mind that we might have to be sent back to Japan, that never occurred to me. But what occurred to me was we're living in America and that I didn't like it. I do remember that. I distinctly remember that day so I must have had quite strong feelings if I remember it to that extent.

MN: Did you go to school the next day?

MU: Yes.

MN: What was school like the next day?

MU: I don't remember anything. I don't remember anything negative. I don't remember what the teacher might have said, if she said anything, I have no recollection. I don't have any recollection of whether it had happened to, my brother was thirteen at that time, if any of my siblings had an uncomfortable situation because of what we heard the day before. I don't recall that at all.

MN: Now did you hear of any Japanese Americans in the local area being picked up by the FBI?

MU: We heard something to that extent. My mother may have mentioned it but as to who and when, I have no recollection.

MN: Now there was this very short period about three weeks where Nikkei families that lived in the... where the government designated as a restricted zone could move out of this military zone into the free zone and your area was still a free zone.

MU: Yes.

MN: Did you see a lot of Nikkei families move into your area?

MU: We had one family move into our home, our house, from San Francisco. They had one daughter, a Nisei, about my older brother's age. They moved in with us, they were our friends that we had met.

MN: So now how many people were living your house?

MU: That added three more in our house besides our family.

MN: Five kids.

MU: And my mother.

MN: And your mother and then the three additional people.

MU: Yes.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Now when the government announced that all the West Coast Nikkeis had to go into camp, how did that make you feel?

MU: I don't recall any strong feelings, anger, I don't recall anger. Maybe my thought was more on what are we going to do, what do we have to do, what is going to happen to the ranch. So I think those thoughts to an unsophisticated twelve year old probably came into my mind at that time. I don't have any strong recollections of anger and despair.

MN: What is your memory of how your family prepared to go to camp?

MU: I remember my brother also mentioned to me my mother made duffle bags and she went to, I think, a store, department store in Lincoln, the next town, to pick up the canvas type material. And when I think of it she did of course have a Singer sewing machine, she had sewn before it's like I told you. When I think of it, it must have been quite difficult for her to have to sew a duffle bag material canvas probably not real thick canvas but that type of a thick material and she had made those for us. As to how many she made for us I don't remember but we were supposed to put in there what we wanted to take. And for me it would have been some little toys, knick knack type of thing that I was attached to. What they were I don't quite remember.

MN: Now while your family were in camp, who looked after your home and the ranch?

MU: We had a family friend, their last name was Mancebo, my brother's good friend, he had a couple of sisters and a mother. My brother's good friend had quite a bad limp, I think he had an accident where he hurt his leg and so he was not called into the service. In those days they were calling everyone into the service and so I think he received a classification where he was not able to enter the service. And so my mother and my brother asked them if they would take care of a ranch. Where they lived, what property they had on their own, I don't know. Being the last in the family I was not into these planning stages and I didn't ask questions. But they moved into our home and continued the production of the fruits because when we left in July there would be some more fruit to be picked and packed and sent to the packing shed to be sent out east. And the family had taken care of that for us so we were very fortunate. So we didn't have to really move and store many of our things away. The personal things we did I'm sure in the garage or some storage area so that they could move their belongings into the house.

MN: Did you say your family went into camp in July?

MU: That was the time when we were put into camp.

MN: Do you know from where you departed to camp?

MU: I don't quite remember where we went but when I was talking to our friend who lives in Lincoln, he said Lincoln town, I don't remember where we went but he had and he's several years older than I am. And I had presumed that was where we had to gather in the town of Lincoln which is next to Newcastle. Our ranch was between the two country towns of Newcastle and Lincoln and so that's where we departed from on a train, not on a bus. The train because the train comes into the town of Lincoln.

MN: Do you know how you got to Lincoln town?

MU: As to who took us there how I don't remember but I'm presuming it must have been the Mancebo family and maybe other people because you would need more than one vehicle. I don't remember being on a truck but I don't recall any of that. I just recall being on the train and when we had gone through a tunnel, after we came out of the tunnel we would sort of be smeared, had black from the smoke and it was an old coach I guess. I used to call it probably a freight train, maybe not quite a freight train, there were places for us to sit. It must have been an old coach that was not being used anymore but I remember laughing at each other, the blinds were down, the windows were closed and we'd look at each other and say, "Oh, you look funny, you got black smoke." [Laughs] That's about all I remember as to the transportation of our family from the town of Lincoln to Tule Lake.

MN: So your family went straight to Tule Lake, no assembly center?

MU: No, we who lived on that particular side of the county road went directly to Tule Lake.

MN: Do you remember how long the train ride to Tule Lake was?

MU: No, I do remember it being a long ride but maybe because I'm not used to being on a train, not being able to judge. So it seemed like quite a long time. As to what meals we ate on the train I don't remember.

MN: Was this your first train ride?

MU: It probably was.

MN: And if this was your first train ride, was it something that was more exciting as a child? Was it more like an adventure or do you remember how you felt being on this train?

MU: I don't remember and I don't even remember thinking how long are we going to be on the train, or even where are we going. If they said Tule Lake I would not know what Tule Lake looked like, where it is, I don't think any of us knew. And as to how far, I didn't ask those questions. My siblings may have asked questions and they may have known the answer but I didn't ask and they didn't tell me.

MN: Now how old were you when you entered Tule Lake?

MU: Thirteen, my birthday's in May.

MN: Now what was your first impression of Tule Lake?

MU: I don't remember that. I do remember distinctly our quarters. It was at the end of the barrack and I think there were four units, I remember the families, and we were at the side that was closer to the latrines, the washroom, and so we didn't have that distance. In fact we were in the middle, it was 5105-E, I think, 5105-E so it was towards the middle of the barracks so we were very close to the latrine, the shower area.

MN: Now your future husband, Marvin Uratsu from Loomis was also in Tule Lake. Did you get to know him in Tule Lake?

MU: No, I did not know him. I knew of him since he was running for the student body for the following year of Tri State High School. And I would brag to my friends, "He's from California." I had friends from Oregon, friends from Washington and so we all took pride in our own state. I'd say, "Well, Marvin's from California, he's from our back home area."

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: Now your second brother didn't stay in Tule Lake very long. How was he able to get out?

MU: He had applied for the University of Nebraska, he evidently had applied to other colleges, I don't know which one but he had told me later. Many of them did not accept Niseis. University of Nebraska did accept him and he wanted to be an engineer and he was able to leave camp I guess for the September, I'm not sure when the university started but if we entered in July... I know he was not there very long. And he had applied and was accepted so he left camp soon.

MN: And then your oldest brother also didn't stay in Tule Lake too long either. What did he do?

MU: He relocated. At that time there were occasions when some of the fellows were able to leave camp on contract I think and come back into camp. But in his case he did not want to return, he and his wife, he was married they lived in our block. He wanted to leave camp and so he had applied to go out and he landed up in Idaho, Payette, Idaho is where he first landed. When we moved when he came after us from Heart Mountain we rented, he leased the apple orchard like I told you in the town of Fruitland, a small town, smaller than Payette, Idaho.

MN: Now in Payette, Idaho, do you know what he was doing? Was he doing fruit farming out there also?

MU: No, row crops.

MN: Row crops.

MU: Yes.

MN: What are row crops?

MU: Potato, lettuce, beets, the kind of row cropping labor where you have to bend over. Whereas the fruit trees usually you're upright, so I remember it being hard on his back. It is, that type of farming is hard on your back and there's a snapshot I have seen where he's looking at the camera but he's half bent over and he has a hoe I think when they're blocking the lettuce. The lettuce is grown in rows and then you have to block it so that one would grow much bigger than the other ones. So we used to have to do that too, I have done that, blocking lettuce it's called. So that's what he was doing in Payette with many of his Nisei friends. I have seen snapshots of his friends.

MN: And then from Payette he went to Fruitland?

MU: When we, yeah, joined him.

MN: Later on.

MU: Yes, we leased a house there, actually it was Mr. Fisher that owned the farm, we leased his house.

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: We'll get there, let's stay in Tule Lake still.

MU: Okay.

MN: Now what month did you start attending Tule Lake school?

MU: What month? I would presume it would be September if we entered in July. When school began I was in the eighth grade.

MN: Was the eighth grade part of the Tri State High School?

MU: Junior high.

MN: Were you involved in any extracurricular activities?

MU: Junior Glee Club.

MN: And then you mentioned also the Girls Reserve. What is a Girls Reserve?

MU: It's like the Girl Scouts. I don't know what the mission statement was. I've never looked into it not knowing what mission statement each organization has. And as to what we did, I really don't recall exactly what we did. I think we had to wear a red tie and a white blouse and some kind of a dark, a navy skirt. And I remember attending meetings with my friends, the Girl Reserves.

MN: Did you go camping with the Girls Reserve?

MU: No, no camping. Whatever we did was in camp. I don't think we were allowed. I don't think that groups were allowed to leave. I don't know about Boy Scouts, I don't know.

MN: How about music lessons. Did you take any music classes?

MU: I wanted to take piano class. I like to do things with my fingers and so I entered a piano class but there was just one piano in that room and what the rest of us or what we had to use was just a keyboard, a paper keyboard, no noise, no tone, piano toning at all. And we were to place our fingers on the particular keyboard. I don't remember attending it very long, maybe I lost interest in it. And I don't even remember being able to play the piano. But when the family moved from San Francisco to our house she brought her piano and I thought oh, I want to play the piano, I want to learn how to play the piano. She may have taught me a few simple songs but I don't remember.

MN: Now you're talking about the family that moved into your house before the war?

MU: Yes.

MN: They brought a piano to the house?

MU: Yes, she was I guess an accomplished pianist, their only child, their only daughter, and so she had a piano. I don't remember how they transported that piano into our crowded home but I was so happy to see a piano in the house.

MN: Is that one of the reasons why you took the music class at Tule Lake?

MU: It could be and musical instrument being the piano, something I would do with my fingers rather than a clarinet which my sister took. Or a violin, my mother used to play the violin she said but for some... I think because like I said I liked to do things with my fingers.

MN: How about like craft classes? Did you take craft classes at Tule Lake?

MU: The shell flower making class. My girlfriend and I went looking for shells, Tule Lake being an old river bed there were a lot of shells. So we would go looking, searching for shells, digging them up, bringing them back and washing them. And then we were in a shell flower shell making class and we enjoyed that but I don't know where they went. I don't have them.

MN: Did you play any sports at Tule Lake?

MU: There was a factory foundation in the outskirts of the barrack area and my girlfriend and I found out that there was a younger girl in our block who had roller skates. And there must have been another child who had a roller skate because we did not, my girlfriend and I did not have roller skates. you don't roller skate in the country. But anyway, she and I would hesitantly and say, "You go ask." "I did last time, you go ask." So we would hesitantly go ask and the girl always let us use her roller skates and I don't know if she got a chance to use the roller skates. So we'd happily go and go out to the outskirts of the camp and we would try to roller skate. And when I remember now there were people playing tennis on the factory foundation, and of course I still play tennis and when I think of it now, what a nuisance we must have been roller skating when they're trying to play tennis. But that was something I did when you asked me about sports. I wanted to be a majorette and so my mother bought me a baton. I don't remember ever taking lessons but I got a book and I was twirling the baton, and again because I think I like to do things with my fingers, but I never participated in any program but I do remember having a baton and I think she bought me those majorette boots.

MN: What else did you do in your free time at Tule Lake?

MU: We used to go visit our friends. She was from Centerville, California, so she had friends that had moved to another block, 41 or 42 that would be in the area where the Placer County people were because this family also had moved to Placer County hoping they would not have to go into camp. And so my girlfriend and I would go look for her friends that she knew from Centerville. And so we'd go and chit chat and whatever and then another thing that we did in our block, my girlfriend and I, one of our friends had, the family had two rooms, I guess they had an extended family so the parents were in one room and so we didn't have to play the wonderful game of Monopoly in that room so we used the other room. There was a doorway, they had opened the wall, so my girlfriend and I and this girl from that family and others we'd play Monopoly all day, all day, take time out to go eat lunch, come back, we owed each other thousands of dollars. We spent a lot of time playing Monopoly and cards, Old Maid and that family had a relative who had an accordion and so I would sort of again the keyboard, I would sort of play a few songs on that accordion when we're not playing Monopoly. And I still remember enjoying the accordion. Otherwise when it's evening time we would go to the talent shows. They had talents shows in the main firebreak area and sometime they would have like a concert and my sister played the clarinet and her girlfriend played the, I think the clarinet also, from back home. And so we would go see that, my girlfriend and I. As to playing sports, like a team sport out on the firebreak, I don't remember playing team sport, volleyball, baseball. I know they were going on but I don't remember playing those sports. Oh, ping pong, a rec hall, the recreation hall, each block had a recreation hall, ping pong, she and I would play ping pong.

MN: Now I think you also like to read.

MU: Oh, yes, Nancy Drew mysteries, I checked all of them out at the library. They were so good, so good.

MN: So Tule Lake had a library.

MU: Had a library.

MN: And would you say it was well stocked?

MU: I don't remember how it was well stocked or not. It was stocked with Nancy Drew mystery stories I know. [Laughs] And I enjoyed checking those out and reading them.

MN: Did you folks watch movies at Tule Lake?

MU: Yes, I think out in the firebreak they had movies. And in the recreation hall, the block, they had movies. Now as to what I saw, what I enjoyed, I don't remember, but I know we may have seen some of the current movies because my girlfriend's favorite actor was Alan Ladd and mine was Robert Mitchum. And we would sort of, not fight, but say, "Oh, no, he's better," "No, he played that part better." So before the war we really didn't go to movies except the Japanese movies held at that Japanese school fundraiser, my mother would take us. But of course there were these movie magazines that teenagers always looked through, and so maybe it's through those magazines, but we must have seen movies, I'm sure they had movies available for us for entertainment for the young people to keep young people out of trouble.

MN: What about your mother? What did she do in Tule Lake?

MU: She did not go to any flower making classes. I don't remember if she went to sewing class. I know she would get together with her friends who were from back home in the next unit, in the next unit. I don't remember her doing that maybe because I'm out of that room most of the time with my girlfriend playing Monopoly at our friends' who had the extra room or were looking up girlfriends in the other blocks. She did not go to any English class, flower arrangement, she did not... I know she loved to read, she loved to read and write.

MN: So were there Japanese language books in Tule Lake library available?

MU: That I don't know.

MN: How about church? Did your family go to church on Sundays? Did you go to church at Tule Lake?

MU: No, I went to the Buddhist, my girlfriend was Buddhist and in our block, in the recreation hall they would have Buddhist service so I would just accompany her and we just would play with the beads and giggle and we were not very good Sunday school or church attendees. I felt guilty about that.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: Now when the "loyalty questionnaire" came out in 1943, was this an issue within your family?

MU: I don't remember it as being an issue. I think my mother was quite definitely sure she wanted to stay here. She did not want to go back to Japan, she wanted to raise her family here in America. She thought this was our country.

MN: Now in Tule Lake there was an incident where the men in Block 42 refused to answer the "loyalty questionnaire." Do you remember this incident at all?

MU: No.

MN: So your family became a "yes-yes" and so when Tule Lake became a segregation center, your family moved out of Tule Lake. How did your family determine where to go? Did the WRA determine that for you or were you able to pick what camp you wanted to go to?

MU: I don't remember any conversation my mother may have had with us. And I don't know for a fact if we were given the choice, and how would you know what the other camps were like? They were all out in the desert. And probably no relatives or friends there in the camp, so I don't think how would one choose, weather-wise they're all horrible. We ended up in Wyoming, snow storms are horrible, the coldness.

MN: So you did end up in Wyoming. Do you remember how you prepared to leave Tule Lake and to go to this new camp? Do you remember what you packed?

MU: No, my worldly goods were probably in just in one little box. And they were very dear to me I'm one of these kind of people who are very sentimental about certain things and I like to protect them and I'm sure I did that when we moved from here to there. And my mother never said, "No you can't take that, it's too big, no, you shouldn't take that." I don't remember my mother saying anything to me about not being able to take that or her questioning, "Do you want to take it?" I mean that was not a relationship I think with many Isseis and the children, you just do what you think is... and the parents sort of left you alone. That's how my family was, my mother left me and maybe my sister has helped her, I don't even remember that. What I do remember is that I wasn't objecting, I wasn't coming out with "no, why?" type of a feeling. If I did at the time, I'm sure I would remember that because I just didn't do that. So if I were adamant about something I'm sure I would have remembered that.

MN: Now how did you feel about leaving Tule Lake?

MU: The big, big thing for me was if I had to part from my dear friend. That was the biggest thing that hit my heart. And I still remember when she came to me and asked, "Where are you going?" And I said Heart Mountain and she also was sent to Heart Mountain. And I remember how happy we were. We just cried and cried we were so happy we were going to same camp, that we're not leaving each other. I remember that, so that was the biggest thing for me. Not where we were going or why even because I didn't have to answer those questions. And it never was a problem with our family although we heard some conversation about certain families coming across some dangerous incidents. I do remember hearing that, but for our immediate family there was no question.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: Now who in your family actually ended up at Heart Mountain?

MU: My mother and my brother above me. Because my sister who's above my brother, she had applied... she graduated Tri State High School in Tule Lake, she was a graduate there and she knew she wanted to go on to college. And she applied at Marquette University in Wisconsin and she had been accepted. I don't know what other schools she may have tried for or what schools would not accept her, I don't know that. But she did go to Marquette and she did enter Heart Mountain because I have a snapshot of the two of us in Heart Mountain. But she was not there long, she must have left from Heart Mountain because she would have to go to school, to college since she had graduated as a senior in Tule Lake. She would have to enter the freshman in college so she didn't stay in Heart Mountain very long. So she left and so it was then my brother and myself, the three of us.

MN: Now how would you compare Heart Mountain to Tule Lake?

MU: What I remember with Heart Mountain, I think we had some steps because our barrack was on a hill, not too steep, whereas Tule Lake was a riverbed, the whole thing was flat, no mountains at all. Heart Mountain had a little more hills and a variety in the terrain so I remember we had some steps going into our unit and we were in one of the middle units, not on the end like at Tule Lake. And I don't remember it being very far from the latrine or the shower or the washroom area. And as to the mess hall I don't remember how far it was either but I remember walking to the junior high and it seemed a distance. However, in Tule Lake we lived at one end of Tule Lake and so the Tri State High School was the other end, so that was quite a distance. But it was flat whereas Heart Mountain I remember having to walk downward, not really a hill but downward toward the junior high and then back up to go home after school. And Tule Lake had the Castle Rock Mountain. Heart Mountain had a Heart Mountain and we were there in the winter, very cold, blizzards, very cold, of course Tule Lake too had its heat and its coldness too.

MN: So when they had blizzards at Heart Mountain, did they close down the school?

MU: I don't remember that.

MN: Now how long were you in Heart Mountain before your oldest brother came to get you?

MU: I was in junior high in the ninth grade at Heart Mountain. When we got to Fruitland I was in the ninth grade so it was just a matter of months that we were in Heart Mountain. We were there Christmastime because I remember having Christmas in Heart Mountain because that's when my mother helped with some of the distribution of the toys that came from churches outside of camp. And when she was quite impressed with some Christian churches sending homemade dolls to the camp, that was very important in her life. And so I know we spent Christmas there so as to when after Christmas I do remember like I mentioned when we went to Fruitland school had started already in September.

MN: Now this Christmastime at Heart Mountain, where your mother saw these toys brought in, did this influence her decision to become a Christian?

MU: I think that was one of the decisions. Or her curiosity: "What is this religion, Christianity?" And she heard that they say "love your enemy," what does that mean, "love your enemy"? And she sort of correlated that to the Christian churches, the ladies group making homemade dolls to be sent to people in camp. The Japanese, who are sort of termed "enemies," although we're not from Japan. And she sort of I think correlated that and she realized the strength of the religion of Christianity, love your enemy and treat others like you would want them to treat you. Which I'm sure Buddhism has their equal to that in their religion, but to her she was not familiar with Christianity at all. And so it makes me happy to know that that was one of her influential incidents in camp that later she adopted the religion of Christianity, the Methodist.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now your brother came in the wintertime, and so can you share with us that trip you took out of Heart Mountain to go to Idaho? What was that like?

MU: It was one vehicle, he came with his friend in a sedan and my mother, my brother right above me and myself in the backseat and we were traveling and it was dark. So it must have been at night and I was scared. Snow outside and you could hardly see and it's snowing, the windshield is turning... and it was very cold. And my mother, I think it was my mother who mentioned the onigiri she had made had gotten frozen. I don't know where it was placed in the car, the car usually has a heater, it may have been by the back windshield where it's cold... the window, the back window where it's cold. To me it was a long journey and I remember feeling quite anxious. There was no conversation in the car of fear, there was nothing said from my brother or his friend or my mother. Of course you wouldn't say anything that would be frightful to themselves or to the younger ones in the car. And my mother always being a positive person, I think she was very careful about that. But when I think of it I'm sure there was quite a bit of anxiety on her part as well as for my brother and his friend. But my brother was a mechanic but still out in the desert like with snow coming down, that would be quite a challenge. But I do remember being in the car and being fearful. I never asked, "When are we going to get there?" like kids would often ask on summer vacations, "When are going to get there." I don't remember asking any kind of questions like that but I do remember that fear I had. So that's why I remember, I think.

MN: Now somehow you made it to Fruitland.

MU: Yes, I don't know how long it took, but we did make it to Fruitland.

MN: And you shared earlier about the problem you had with your name, so you became Minnie.

MU: Yes.

MN: Now what grade did you start at Fruitland?

MU: It was the ninth... I was just thinking I mentioned to you that I started Heart Mountain in the ninth grade and I remember Christmas so it must have been in the winter, with the storm, must have been after Christmas that we went then to Fruitland because that was... would be my ninth grade. And yes, I remember my grades by where we went because we traveled. Fruitland was my ninth grade, Tule Lake junior high was my eighth grade. Heart Mountain and Fruitland is my ninth grade, yes.

MN: Do you remember the name of the school that you went to at Fruitland?

MU: Fruitland High School. And that's where my brother and I (attended)... so he would be a junior, he's two years older than I am because he graduated at that Tooele park, Tooele Utah High School. We were in the part which is an ordnance depot, maybe we'll be going into that later. But so it helps me to know what grade and where as to my age.

MN: So at Fruitland High School, what was the ethnic make-up of this high school?

MU: Caucasian, mostly Caucasian. There was maybe one Nisei there, otherwise it was my brother and myself at the high school. I don't remember any black families there. It was a small, small school.

MN: How did the teachers and the students treat you?

MU: I don't remember any uncomfortable situations except I was uncomfortable when she called me "Maiyo," and there's a girl who sort of took me in as a friend, very nice to me and she had invited me over to her home for a sleepover. And we joined the church there, we went to the church there and the MYF, the youth group my brother I went. Because I remember a pancake breakfast and the way we paid for it was they weighed us before we had our... and enjoyed the meal and after. So if you ate one pound of the delicious food, there was so much we paid for the pound and that was sort of strange and different so I do remember that. But maybe that was sort of just to make it sort of interesting activity for the youth group.

MN: And this was a Christian youth group?

MU: Yes, it's a Christian church.

MN: And was it MYF, what does that stand for?

MU: That would be the Methodist Youth Fellowship. I'm not too sure if they used that MYF there but that's what we used, the Methodist people, and I think it was a Methodist, it was not a Catholic (church). It's a small town, they would probably have one Methodist church maybe one Catholic church, but we did go and I didn't object to going. It was the thing to do and to get to know more people.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: About how long were you in Fruitland, Idaho, before you went to Utah?

MU: There again is when we went to Utah, school had begun already. And I'm thinking school usually began in September. Because I was new to the class I was... it was not the first day of school so that's the reason she would say, "We have a new student in our class," and that would be my sophomore year. So that's when we had moved, I don't know what month we moved but we started school after school began so I would surmise it would be September.

MN: Now why did your family move to Utah?

MU: My brother who was with us at that time was the oldest, my brother below him had gone out to Nebraska and I don't exactly remember if he had been in the service at that time. The reason for our going to Tooele Ordnance Depot was my mother's idea and I'm sure my brother's idea. We had property in the country. My mother needs someone to run the estate there, a ranch, she did not want my brother, Howard, to go into the service and to lose him. So we had heard the Tooele Ordnance Depot is where they had... we used to call it an ammunition dump where they stored, made, I'm not too sure, but that's where the ammunition was. If you lived there in the Ordnance Depot area and worked there, you were deferred from being in the army six months at a time. And so some of the Nisei families had done that, we were not the only one, because we made friends there. And so they had applied for that and so that's why we moved out to Utah. There is a town called Tooele but it's in that area Tooele Ordnance Depot and that's where we moved to. And we must have moved in September because my mother would not keep us out of school any longer than she had to because education is the foremost important thing for us, is how she felt, for us to have. And so we started after the initial opening of the school year, so it must have been in September, and I was then a sophomore equivalent to the tenth grade. So I spent time there until the war ended.

MN: Now did you live on the Tooele Ordnance Depot site?

MU: Yes.

MN: What was that like?

MU: They were not barracks, they're each unit... there were about three in one building, three units. Our unit had three bedrooms, a kitchen, a little area for a dining/living room area and then it had a shower, I don't remember a tub and a commode of course, the restroom. That was our unit. My brother and his wife were in one, my mother and I were in the other, and my brother was in the other. But you can understand all the bedrooms, especially my mother and my bedroom and my brother's bedroom especially as storage. We had no basement, no garage, and so that everything that we had in Idaho had to come, we had a truck, my brother had truck, so the truck was loaded with our worldly goods at that time from Fruitland, Idaho, to the Tooele Ordnance Depot.

<Begin Segment 16>

MN: Now what was school like? Do you remember the name of your school that you attended?

MU: Tooele High School I think was the name of it and that's where my brother graduated. He's two years ahead of me, I'm a sophomore so he graduated that year that we went there.

MN: Do you remember what the ethnic makeup was like?

MU: Mostly Caucasian, it was bigger than the Fruitland High School in Idaho. There were several stories in that one building I think it was all one building. I don't even remember a gymnasium, we must have had some sport activity but I don't remember. And we went by... I guess we went by bus. Let's see... my brother above me was not driving at that time so a bus must have come after us and I don't remember the bus but somehow we got to school there. And I especially remember one room because I almost choked to death. And the reason I almost choked to death is after my lunch I would put some sweets... I love sweets more so at that time... and there were these Japanese, sort of like arare, sort of round, it sort of has rough edges around it, and arare has the sweet and oshoyu tasting. I put a bunch in my mouth because I finished my lunch and I went into class and one went a little further than it should. And I'm gagging and my girlfriend, Nisei, she looked at me, "Don't do that, don't do that," she said, she thought I was playing around. And I remember just instinctively running into the bathroom and I remember I almost passed out. And then I felt this thing with the wave that takes your food down, I just felt it and it just hurt so badly, but I felt that little round thing going down my esophagus. But I almost passed out. I mean, that would have been it. [Laughs]

MN: Did the teacher wonder why you ran out into the bathroom?

MU: No, it was right before we came into the room when we're trying to settle down. And I put a bunch in my mouth so I would have something to sort of chew on and enjoy in class. And I don't think I even sat down when my girlfriend said, "Don't do that, don't do that," she had a horrible look on her face and I remember that. And I just instinctively just because I guess when you choke you're thinking you might... I didn't even think of it but I just ran into the bathroom there and I still remember that incident and that's one of the times that I had a fear for my life. But that's what I remember of that school besides saying my name is Miyo and not "Maiyo."

MN: And other than having problems with your name, did the other students and teachers, how did they treat you?

MU: I don't remember any uncomfortable incidents. I don't remember them all coming up to me and saying, "Welcome." Somehow, unless you're an unusual student being extra friendly, you just say hi and you look and that's all, and I think that's all we expect because that's all probably I did with people in school. So I don't remember anything. I do remember algebra. Having started school late, I don't know how many weeks it was but I was lost through the whole algebra. And I like math, but to me has the unknown x plus y equals, and I like numbers and I was very uncomfortable in that algebra class. So that's the other thing that I remember about Tooele High School, not liking algebra, I don't know how I got out of that class.

MN: Now you said there were other Niseis who were doing similar things of getting deferment. How many other families do you remember?

MU: I don't remember how many families, but I remember my brother and his wife became friends with the other couples, and one of my girlfriend was there, that's right. And her older sister was there and a couple of brothers and they had not gone into camp. They lived in Montana. When I talked about camp she was wondering what am I talking about. And when I talk about camp with the other Niseis, she seemed sort of lost because she was not able to share her camp life. Somehow I sort of sensed that, but as to how many families, I don't know.

MN: Now was your brother able to get a deferment throughout the entire war?

MU: Yes, but there was a period of time when we felt the deferment did not come through. And he went to visit Topaz where his wife's family was, to say goodbye and I didn't go. My brother went and his wife went to Topaz and it was during the time that he was gone that this envelope came and for some reason I thought it was a happy news that he did get a deferment because I remember running out to the car with happiness giving him the envelope. I mean, it could have said "denied" but for some reason I still remember that happiness because we needed him, my mother needed him for the family to go back to the ranch after the war.

MN: So while you were living there, did you visit, you said your brother had gone to Topaz to say a final goodbye to his wife's family side. Did you go to like Salt Lake City Japantown or those local areas?

MU: We did go into Salt Lake City I remember because we went to see the temple organ there, the famous --

MN: The Mormon temple?

MU: Mormon temple and the organ. I do not remember going into Japantown but I'm sure we did, because my sister-in-law was with us and I'm sure she would've wanted to buy some Japanese food, snacks or whatever because we were cooking in our unit. But I don't remember. I don't remember that at all.

MN: Now when your brother got this final deferment that by then the war would be over, what did your family do after that? When did you return to Newcastle?

MU: Oh, as soon as we could. As to when, it must have been after the war had ended and we were allowed to come back because then my junior, the junior class was back home at the Placer Union High School in the county of Placer but in the town of Auburn. But it was named Placer Union High School and that's where I spent my junior year which would be the eleventh. And there again, we started after the first day of school and gradually more Niseis were entering the high school there.

MN: Now I wanted to ask you, do you remember how you traveled from the Tooele Ordnance Depot to Newcastle? Whether or not you had any problems of places not allowing you to buy gas or not allowing you to stay overnight? Did you have any?

MU: I don't recall at all. We did have a truck and a sedan and so that's how our family of my brother and his wife -- and I guess we didn't mention it before my sister-in-law had my niece, Carol, who's running the ranch now in Idaho, over in Idaho. Actually in Payette, yeah, she had the child in Payette because when we were in Fruitland I think she was starting to walk. I have pictures of her in a stroller, in a vintage stroller, in a buggy, I know there are some photographs. So coming back to who and how many of us, my brother and his wife and their child, Carol, my mother and my brother, Tatsuya and myself came home in a truck with our worldly goods and in the sedan that was our vehicles that we came back home with to Newcastle.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: And how did you feel about returning back home?

MU: Oh, happy, we were so happy to get back to the ranch and to see the house, our place, we owned it.

MN: So the family that watched over your property during the war did they willingly leave when you returned?

MU: Yes, very good friends, and I don't know... like I said before they moved and took care of the ranch. I don't know if they had their own property or if they were leasing, I don't know the details. And after we came home, where they went, they were still in the area, they were still good friends. As to where they went if they bought anything or leased anything, I don't know the details.

MN: Now in the cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco there was a huge housing shortage? So people were living in the basements of the churches. Did that happen out in your area?

MU: Not that I know of. I cannot remember. There may have been but some of the Nisei families and Issei families, they didn't own property, they leased it. Or by the contract, they had to move on after the season they would move on so they go into camp, they have no place to go home to. So unless they had relatives who had a place, there's no place for them to go. And if they came to Placer county and stayed at a church or whatever, that's a possibility there. But I don't know if that occurred. You'll have to ask some people who would remember that.

MN: Now how did the local community react to the returning Nikkei community?

MU: When you say a community being on the ranch the rancher neighbors and of course they welcomed us back, we're friends. But the town of like Auburn, some of the stores would have "No Japs," the business people in Auburn. And when we went to high school we were... there are cases when some of the students would call us "Japs" and so we Nisei would sort of, like during recess time or lunch we'd sort of mingle in an area away from the main flow of the students. And when they would pass by they would say, "Oh, Japs," you know, I do remember that. But there were not really that many cases and if during the noon hour we'd go into Auburn, it's a very walkable distance, we didn't of course go into the stores, we would just pass by, but I remember seeing the signs and as to how many, what percentage, I don't remember. There probably were not that many because they were used to Issei families, Nisei families, most of the people who lived there. And if they suddenly turned against us because of the war, they had their reasons, maybe their son was taken or something, but I think they had accepted us before and we had no trouble before that I know of. There was a farmer's barn that was burned, but some of these I'm sure are just very isolated cases. But it reflects on our feelings of being welcomed or not welcomed. Other than that I don't have or remember with our family any big unpleasant shootings or chasing us with cars, the young people, I don't remember hearing of it and I don't remember any of that. So personally, I felt comfortable because I was not the only one. My Nisei friends who I met them as they came home, I didn't know them before, became friends and our teachers were fine. They didn't have to say "Maiyo" anymore, they say Minnie because that's when I changed my name. And in a way when I think of it, it's sort of not very wise because the teachers who knew Japanese before would know that the I is pronounced as a E, like Chikako, they wouldn't say "Chaikako," they would say Chikako. So maybe it was not a good time for me to change my name to Minnie, I should've done it when I left the camp but anyway...

MN: Now you were transferring from one school to another school for a few years.

MU: All my high school.

MN: So there was a lot of instability. How did that affect your education?

MU: Having started school a little later than the first day of school, the algebra is the one that really crossed me up. Other than that, like history, English, and I studied, I tried to study and I don't remember having difficulty. I think I felt I'm doing okay and I'll be going onto college, but my goal was to be a secretary, not to go four years for a master's or PhD and that was not for me. My mother would have loved that maybe but I was not that material, I didn't have that kind of a material.

<Begin Segment 18>

MN: So what year did you graduate from Placer Union High School?

MU: That would be, let's see, '47. High school was '47, two years of college back home, '49, one year at Armstrong College, 1950, finished Armstrong the winter semester and we got married in 1951, January.

MN: And how did you meet your future husband?

MU: Marvin, I was going to Armstrong College at that time and there was a Nisei club which I was a member of, at one time president of... it was a small group. There was a Hawaiian club too and so there were many Asians there and there were Chinese students there, too. And for fundraiser we had dances and we had parties, bowling parties, ice skating party, but at one of the occasions it was a dance at the Y, it was near the school which is across the post office. And some of the... I guess one or two fellows who were going to Armstrong knew of or knew Marvin and I think they told Marvin, "There's a girl from your back home going to Armstrong," and he didn't know me. I didn't know he was coming to the dance, but they brought him to the dance and so that's where we met, and it was a dance, so had asked me for a dance. And then in the course of the evening we had refreshments but with everybody, and then he asked me if I had a way home and I said, "Yes, I do have a way home." And that was our beginning.

MN: For some of us who may not know what Armstrong College is, can you tell us what Armstrong College is?

MU: A business college opened by Mr. and Mrs. Armstrong and they were there at that time, the people who opened the college, and their son also was part of the college, a small business college. My sister who had graduated Cal after Marquette, she looked for a business school for me, she graduated Cal and she was working for a East Bay Mud, EB Mud we call it, East Bay Municipal Utility District and so she had a job and she looked for a college in the area. I don't know if my mother asked her to or not so that there will be someone helping me but she found the Armstrong Business School, and so I applied there, transferred my grades and that's where I went to become a secretary, to become a secretary with a little more formal training. I always wanted to be a medical secretary. I thought the medical field was very exciting although at Armstrong College I took legal secretarial shorthand, they didn't have... I wanted a medical shorthand class, it was shorthand those days, the younger people don't know what shorthand is, I'm sure they're not familiar with it, but shorthand we had to take notes. But I did not want to go into the legal... to me legal secretary, much of it might be negative legal cases, something happened, legal case, although legal departments could be a variety of things, but the medical field interested me more. But what actually happened was I became a elementary school secretary, which was fine.

MN: And then prior to going to Armstrong you were in college, was that at Cal?

MU: No, junior high back home. Placer Junior College.

MN: Oh, junior college.

MU: Right next to the high school, a two-year college. And since then they have moved it to Roseville, where Joe Montana trained at the college there. The 49ers trained there I think a couple of years, so that may have put that college on the map. So it left Auburn and they moved it to Roseville, it's a two-year college.

MN: And then you came out to Armstrong College which was in Berkeley and then you met Marvin. Did your mother have any problems that Marvin was not from the same ken as your mother?

MU: As far as my Marvin not being the same ken as my mother, I don't think that was a problem. For one thing, there are very few Shiga-ken around, there are more Hiroshima-ken, what other, Kumamoto, whatever, that was not a problem with her. She would look at the character, she would look at the family background more than the ken, I think.

MN: And then you worked for the school district, Berkeley Unified School District.

MU: Yes, they were giving tests, and at that time we were advised to take as many shorthand tests wherever, typing test, just take the test to get used to test and to know how much you have learned or where you might stand. And so I was taking tests and they were giving these tests for public school secretaries, clerk typists, and so that's what I did. And having, going to school at that time so I did okay on the tests, fortunately.

<Begin Segment 19>

MN: Now I wanted to ask you a little bit about redress in the 1980s when that issue came up within the Japanese American community. Did you ever think that redress could ever be won?

MU: No, I didn't think it would be possible but I didn't really study into it. I was very naive at that time about something like redress. What happened to us happened to us, and we need to look forward, and so I did not have the interest and I didn't really study it, regretfully maybe. But the others did the job for all of us, right.

MN: Was your mother alive to receive the apology and the reparation money?

MU: No, she passed away in March of 1989. It was passed in... was it August of '88? Uh-huh.

MN: Now your family used a part of the redress money to build a memorial on your ranch?

MU: Yes, we did.

MN: Can you share with us how this idea came about and what this memorial looks like?

MU: I think my brother, Howard, the one that's the next in line, he had put much thought into that, how we could use my mother's redress money. I know one thing my mother always said on the ranch, you put the money back into your machinery, the shed or whatever, to improve, to gradually improve your business, which was the ranch, and not necessarily pile up whatever profits there might have been. I'm sure there wasn't too much profit anyway, but she would want it to go to improve. So I'm sure that thought came into my brother's mind too and I think the rest of us. He had the ranch then, he was carrying on, so if he said maybe we ought to use that money to, use it towards whatever equipment he needed or to expand, I'm sure I would have said, yes let's do that, that's the legacy my mother, my father left for us, for the family. But I think it was his idea and he presented it to us to have a little something to show this is a Twin Peaks Orchard, that's what it's called, Twin Peaks Orchard. There are two little knolls like in the ranch of the twenty acres, and so that's the name that I guess my father mother gave, Twin Peaks Orchard. And so he said, "Let's have something there to show that to build a... not just a plaque, but to build something there. And we all thought about it, my sister was of course still living at that time and my brother right above me, five of us were all still living and he presented these ideas to us. And he had good ideas.

MN: So what does this memorial look like?

MU: The plaque area, it has a relief face of my father and my mother, the plaque area. And it has "Twin Peaks Orchard" and the year, I can't quite recall the year that he had established the ranch on there. I can't remember if my mother and my father's names on there, I'm sure it is. You'll have to have Nakae on there, Yoshishika and Tomeo Nakae, and then it's quite high and it's put onto this, it's called sandstone, not concrete, it's called sandstone and I remember they said it has a beigy look to it. And the plaque is on there and then it's a garden area in front with a wall so high, because for picture we would sit on it. And my brother grew flowers and some shrubs there. And like I mentioned before the road, from the county road, the road of the ranch from there to the house it is quite a distance and when it's get nearer to the old house, where I was born, a newer home was built later. My brother and his wife built a new home on the top on the knoll, that's what it looks like, so as you drive in, you could see the plaque, the relief. And my sister helped get someone to do the relief of the picture taken from their wedding picture. Not exactly wedding picture, long ago they used to go the studio and they would borrow a hat and the suit, it's one of those. My father's sitting and my mother's standing. People have said, "How come Grandma's not sitting and Grandpa's standing?" But so it was taken from that photograph, and the fellow who made it did a good job. So when we drive in we see that and we're proud of that.

MN: Now this ranch, is it still in operation?

MU: Yes, my niece, that's my oldest brother's daughter, his only daughter and her husband and his stepdaughter and her husband are running the business there and they've expanded.

MN: So now it's in its third generation.

MU: Uh-huh. We feel and I feel very grateful and I'm always telling my niece and her husband and I tell him, "She can't do this without your help." But anyway we feel very thankful that she and her husband and my brother's stepdaughter and her husband is carrying on. But it is way out between Newcastle and Lincoln where there are hills, whereas I think of down the valley where the young children did not want to carry on the business, and so here comes the bulldozer and before you know it, supermarkets and the mall, down in the valley whereas where this ranch is, it's a ways from the two towns and it's quite hilly, but there are many mansions going up now, many mansions. And my brother would say, "I see more and more lights at night so that means more homes are being built." And I'd say well, the people who live in San Francisco they can afford it, they'll make a nice home on top of the hill, beautiful view, the air is fresh and all they have to do is their business on the computer. So that's a wonderful place for them to have a second or third home. But it's still quite wide open yet, but it's beautiful out there.

<Begin Segment 20>

MN: Now for yourself after the war, have you revisited Tule Lake or Heart Mountain?

MU: Heart Mountain I have not visited. I know there is going to be a museum, something being built there, but I don't have the interest because my stay there was so short. I didn't participate except at the school. I do remember the Heart Mountain, the mountain, there is a Heart Mountain. Tule Lake, Marvin was there I was there, I recall, I remember a lot of things in Tule Lake that I did with my girlfriends. And so he and I decided to take one of the pilgrimages that Jimi Yamaichi and Hiroshi Shimizu and the young people set up. And so we got on the bus from Berkeley and I said, "This is a celebrity bus." Yuri Kochiyama was on there and Mary Tomita, the author, Betty Kano, the artist, and (Delia Nakayama) --

MN: (Nakayama)?

MU: Is she the one what was in Mississippi? No, that's someone else. There's another lady, she moved to Mississippi, she was writing for the Japanese American newspaper, she had a Japanese name, too. And Stephanie Miyashiro, Stephanie, she was on that bus. Mina Fallenbaum, she's the daughter of Betty Kano, she's an activist, she's from a mixed marriage. And but anyway, we would say, "Oh my goodness, this is a celebrity bus. What are we doing on a celebrity bus?" But we got to meet them so it was a really wonderful trip for us. The bus trip alone and meeting people on the bus alone was a wonderful experience for us, and to go to Tule Lake, and some of the Niseis there was interesting. I think that most of the people there were Sanseis. Some of the Niseis there, they said, "Our kids wanted to go." And so it seemed at that particular one there were not that many Niseis there wanting to go back. Maybe they'd done several years before because they are, every two years they had these. So they'd been there but that particular trip some of the Nisei we met said, "Our children wanted to come with us," so they were there which I thought was a wonderful thing. Because some of them stayed there and some of the memories that they had there when it became a segregation camp was not, I think, too happy for some people. See we left... I had my fun there and I left with my friend and my girlfriend to Heart Mountain. [Laughs]

MN: And what year was this pilgrimage you went to?

MU: Beg your pardon?

MN: What year was this pilgrimage that you attended?

MU: It was 2000, I think, or 2002. I think it was 2000. We thought it was 2002 because I think it happened to be the same year we went to the Oberammergau in Germany, and that's held in every ten years. And I think it was that same year but... and yet maybe it was not. Maybe it was the year 2002 because the Oberammergau, I don't know if you're familiar with Oberammergau in Germany is the passion play, the passion play about Jesus Christ, the passion play Methodist is held every ten years. And we were supposed to go on it in '96 but I had my surgery so we said, "Okay, let's wait 'til the year 2000 when the passion play." So I'm not too sure because that would mean two trips, the passion play trip in the fall and the Tule Lake which is in July, fourth of July weekend, very hot. So I'm sorry, I don't whether it was the year 2000 or 2002.

MN: Now how did you feel returning to Tule Lake?

MU: I didn't have any strong feeling about it except remembering our unit, our block, recalling my life in Tule Lake. And I like I said, they were happy times there, especially with my girlfriends. And so I recall those days there with pleasant memories, and yet I realized what it had become after we left. And so when I talk to some of the people who were there after we left, I didn't ask a lot of questions, but I'm thinking they must have had different memories of their life in Tule Lake. I didn't want to pump them as to what they went through because it hadn't been very pleasant for them to recall. And then having gone back with Marvin was extra too because he had spent his life there as a Placer county youth landing up at Tule Lake. For us to go together, it was a memorable trip for both of us. But I do recall how hot it was. We're not used to that heat living in the Bay Area now.

MN: Why did it take you folks that long to return?

MU: For the pilgrimage?

MN: Or to return to the camp site?

MU: Why did it take me or Marvin that long to return... I don't know the answer to that. I took a little interest in it when they said a pilgrimage to Tule Lake, but I may have thought of it in terms of after we left, you know. And then also how they must have felt being there and how they must have felt of those who left there. They may have had some feelings, if we go back to Tule Lake we go back as people, "yes-yes." And some of the people who went to Tule Lake came from other camps. They were not all the ones that were just there, and so it must have been an unpleasant situation for some of the Niseis. I mean, if they had their choice they may have had a different place to go to but being Niseis, maybe younger Niseis like people my age they did what the parents chose. And in some cases it might not have been what they would have liked to do. And so thinking there may have been some uncomfortable unpleasant feelings for them, I had nothing against them but I felt that there might be a little something, I do recall that. So whether that kept me from saying, "Oh, let's go," I don't know. So I think I was quite careful when we did go because of that feeling, you know, I try to think of other people's feelings and to have compassionate feelings for people who may have gone through difficulties. But we both said, "Oh, yeah, let's go," and so it's the same feeling he had as I did, let's go.

MN: Well, you have answered all my questions. Is there anything else you wanted to add?

MU: Because it's my time. As a person, I think what I would like to add is we've been very blessed. Our whole family has been very blessed as I've stated, and when my mother came to live with us for twenty years and she was no problem to us, she loved Marvin and Marvin respected her. So I felt very thankful for that and she had told me, "I'm ready to go to meet my husband. I had promised him when he passed away that I would do my best to take care of the family, to feed and clothe them and to educate them." And she said, "I think I have tried my best and all of you seem to be doing okay and so I feel relieved and happy, and any day I'm ready to go." And so I'm very happy and thankful for that with my mother. And for our personal life, we have been very blessed with four children, two and two, and five grandchildren. When I hear of some hardships and physical problems that some people have, I feel very thankful. And as a person I think, what I tell myself is I wanted to be a happy person. To be a happy person you need to be thankful. If you're thankful, there's a lot for me to be thankful, and it helps me to be a happy person. And with my grandchildren, I babysat our twin grandsons, they're twenty-six now, and I always told them, "I want you to be happy, to be happy." And like I said with me to be happy, number one, I have to be thankful to Him. And so I feel very happy at this time and I've told the family that if He calls me up tomorrow, I'll be happy. I've lived a happy life. Thank you.

MN: Thank you.