<Begin Segment 23>

BT: Well, there were two things, one of the reasons why people were getting put in the stockade is they were elected leaders. That's one reason.

MY: We don't know why any of us were in the stockade.

BT: They never told you why?

MY: No. "Why are you here? Because I told you you're here." That was the response.

BT: So people would ask the prison authorities? Did the, did the inmates ask the prison authorities --

MY: I remember specific questions asked to Colonel Austin, "Why are we here?" "Because I want you," no, "You're here because you're here." I think that was the answer.

TI: So it's almost, in addition to this lack of knowledge, which is, in some ways is control. I mean, by not telling you this information, they're, in some ways, what's the right, I say control, like harassing almost the prisoners. Something else that I read that you talked about was sometimes at night they would just have you guys come out of the barracks and stand in line.

MY: Oh, they were... having midnight raids in the barrack was nothing unusual. As a matter of fact, one of the, one of the times in my life I was actually scared was when, one of those midnight raids -- are you familiar with Thompson submachine gun, the round cartridge? That Thompson machine gun was aimed at my belly by a young soldier who seemed to be shaking because he was scared. Well, I know something about arms because in martial arts we were studying arms. His trigger finger was on the trigger. Well, if you're shaking like this the damn finger could... and I'm aware of this, so I think that was about the only time in my life I was physically scared. In other words, there were many midnight raids. There were other kinds of raids --

TI: So going back to that, so it sounds like you viewed those raids as more of a harassment more than anything, that, you thought that there would never be orders to, for instance, shoot anyone or anything like that? They were just harassing you, even though they had guns?

MY: No, we couldn't go that far in our thinking because we didn't know what these soldiers could or would do. There were rumors that these soldiers were from the Japanese warfront and they were "anti-Jap," which was one of the rumors, true or not I don't know, but if that, we didn't know, where if they were "anti-Japs," logical they would do anything because they had seen the horrors of the war and Japanese soldiers are not the kindest soldiers. And so those thinking were behind our, back of our thinking. And then when you have a Thompson submachine gun pointed at you with a trigger finger on the trigger you're damn careful what you say or what you do.

TI: And physically how close was this soldier, when he...

MY: Holding machine gun like this.

TI: So that close, and so you could actually see him trembling.

MY: Yeah, so he was actually shivering, and I assumed he was shivering because he was scared. It wasn't cold. So those are the midnight raids, but there were other raids where we were told to get out in a open area of the closed stockade, and one of those times was, the whole area, this open area between the barrack and the kitchen, was already surrounded by soldiers in full uniform with their M-9 rifles, and then by the gate there was a truck with a machine gun aimed at us with a guy sitting by the machine gun. And we were told to stand in line in this, I don't remember whether it was snowing or not, but it was not warm. It was cold. And most of us were in zori because that's how we stayed in the barracks, and if we were fortunate enough to grab something because we were going out, we were fortunate. Others who did not grab anything just... they were out there the way they were out there. It's as if somebody came and said, "Okay, get out quick, there's a fire," we would just run out the way we are. That's the way we were told to get out of the barrack. And we stood out there, stood out there, and stood out there, not knowing what was happening.

TI: When things like this happened, was there any recourse? I mean, were there, could you or the others talk with anyone, whether it's the Spanish consul or anyone, in terms of grievances in terms of treatment?

MY: Well there were a number of reactions instead of the word recourse. One of the reactions, we would talk about it. And finally, what can we do about it? Not a damn thing. Another reaction was at that time a few of us who were motivated -- I wouldn't say brave enough -- motivated, would ask Colonel Austin there, "Why are we here?" And his response was essentially, "You're here because you're here." And then as a result of, at one of these many such situations... oh, I recall two situations. One, we had a little bullpen, I think was the word we used, where they kept any one of us who Colonel Austin wanted to put us there, and it could've been any reason. And then asked, I forgot what the question was, "There's somebody in there. Any one of you guys want to join in there?" following a dialogue of some kind, and then for whatever reason, one of us responded somehow and he was told to go to the bullpen. No, no, no, that wasn't the issue. "There's somebody in there. Any one of you guys want to go in there?" Okay, then something happened... "Okay, who wants to..." I don't remember the sequence, whether, "Okay, you go," or whatever, but the question was answered in such a way, "Who wants to go in?" that the whole group of us responded by, essentially by our actions saying yes. Well, there's not a damn thing he could do but the bullpen would hold only two people, three people at the most, so that frustrated the colonel quite a bit. And then --

TI: But this was an act of defiance to the colonel?

MY: It was an act of defiance, yes. There was not much one could do. I think something like that was made in the River Kwai picture, where everybody responded. Anyway, that was one of the sequence, one of the results of the reaction. Another reaction was we will go on a hunger strike. And the Colonel's reaction, "Well, if you want to go on a hunger strike that's your business. We'll take all the food away," and he told the soldiers to take all the food away, which he did. And then that was interesting, in that situation of taking all the food away... what confuses me now is when that happened. It must've happened after the hunger strike, or was part of the hunger strike, "We'll take all the food away." And then they emptied the commissary kitchen of all the food other than bread, bread because they issued us bread and water, and then they went to all the barracks taking all the food away. And out of that issue came the question that the so-called leaders were eating food, and this rumor had spread to our barrack too, but we didn't know anything about it except in this situation all the fruits and candies came out of that barrack. It was attributed to the leaders, so that was interesting. It was part of that third reaction by the group. So in retrospect, there's only about three reactions.

TI: Okay, so yeah, okay.

BT: Were you aware of any visits from outsiders?

MY: What?

BT: Were you aware of visits by outsiders, like the ACLU?

MY: Yes, during that sequence, I don't remember when, we were aware that the Spanish consulate, Spanish representative was in camp, and that's about all we knew. And then, I can't think of my friend's name, the lawyer for ACLU...

BT: Besig.

MY: Ernie Besig. Ernie Besig was allowed into the stockade, and that was the first time I met Ernie, and I call him Ernie because he and I became good friends subsequent, after the camp. I had been volunteering at the ACLU even before questionnaire was due and such. At that time Ernie Besig was not here yet, at the office, and so after I was released I volunteered again and Besig and I continued our relationship even, and when he joined the faculty at San Francisco State we became fast of friends, so to say. So Ernie Besig I met in camp, in the stockade, and I never met this Spanish representative.

TI: And what could Ernie Besig do? So he came in...

MY: He was asking questions. He was with ACLU, was asking questions regarding, I don't remember the specifics, but I assume about the treatment. I don't remember.

TI: And do you know if he was, in particular, interested in the treatment of citizens or was it just the whole group?

MY: I don't remember.

BT: Well, when the visitors from the ACLU or from the Spanish consul came to the stockade, was there discussion among prisoners about the nature of those visits?

MY: Spanish representative, I cannot say because I did not even see them. In terms of Ernie Besig, was more of an individual, he and whoever he wanted to talk with. There was no group discussion, as I recall. There may have been.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.