<Begin Segment 5>

SK: I remember the time we got stopped, and... was it Snyder who wrote to say that perhaps you could get affidavits from certain people, right? (It was David R. Kinneer, Executive Secretary of the Board for Correction of Military Records who suggested obtaining affidavits to show proof...)

BT: Oh, either the chaplain or the soldier who initiated the scuffle.

SK: Yeah, that's right. And other, what do you call, affidavits, you know. So this is when we worked a little harder. Chaplain Yamada was dead, of course, so we couldn't get anything from him. But James Matsuda, he was the person directly involved with the scuffle. And I went to see him at least three times. The first time I saw him, he said, "To heck with it, forget about it. I don't want to even see you" -- I phoned him -- "I don't want to even see you." But you know, we, I took honey. When he was not home. I says, "I left the honey there. Hey, James. I wanna come see you." Then I guess he kind of cooled down. And the third time, I took Shig Matsumoto with me. That's when he consented to say a few words regards to the incident. And it's a good thing he admitted to the fact that he was the one that maybe punched the officer. And we got affidavits from others, too, who were involved in the particular, during the particular night.

TI: Well, talking about Matsuda, though, I know just how difficult it was to convince him. Because I know Bill, you tried to contact him, also.

SK: That's right.

BT: Yes.

TI: And he wouldn't give an inch.

BT: Yeah, well, he didn't know me, and a...

SK: That's right.

BT: And he said he just wanted to bury the thing. It's all done and forgotten. But again, like Kash, we decided we're not going to give up. [Laughs]

SK: That's right.

DM: I think, though, that my father never, ever mentioned that person's name. I don't think my dad ever, um, placed blame with him. And so I think it's interesting that to the family, because we have never heard his name.

SK. That's right.

DM: And he's protected sort of, that code of honor, of not saying anything for all these years.

BT: Well, the funny thing is that the chaplain knew who had started it. I guess word got around. But when you look at it, when Kash got his special court-martial orders that evening, when Fred saw that, they said, "Gee, we didn't know this happened." And they didn't know. There was a fight, but they didn't know how it started and who started it. In fact, the MP officer agrees, the boys all agree, it's like a misunderstanding, that little scuffle. Everybody shook hands, went back, and everybody thought that was it. That's why it's amazing that a court-martial would come out of that incident.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 1998 Densho. All Rights Reserved.