Densho Digital Archive - Catherine Embree Harris Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Okay, so today is February 28, 2011, and we're in Honolulu talking with Catherine Embree Harris. So Catherine, I want to ask the first question, can you tell me where you were born?

CH: New York City.

TI: And what, what was the date of your birth?

CH: October 30, 1919.

TI: So that means you're ninety-two years old. [CH nods] Okay, good.

CH: At least.

TI: [Laughs] And what was the name given to you at birth?

CH: Catherine Gay, G-A-Y, Embree.

TI: And tell me, what was your father's name?

CH: Edwin Rogers Embree.

TI: And tell me, what kind of work did, did he do? What kind of work did your father do?

CH: Oh my, that's the hardest question for me because I wasn't paying any attention to him and his work, but what I was aware of he was in the area of race relations, improving relationships between negroes and haoles. How they, how he did this I have no idea, 'cause I, as a child you're not always paying much attention to your parents. So that's about all I can say.

TI: Okay, but at some point you were in Hawaii. Was your, was your father -- as a child -- was your father in Hawaii during that time period?

CH: Well, I'm very unclear about his situation. He was here, but what he was doing financially, for instance, how was he earning a living, I don't know. Somebody must know, but I don't.

TI: Okay, well, that's okay. About how old were you when you were living in Hawaii as a child?

CH: Oh my goodness, well, I spent a lot of time out here and I was in school. I went to Punahou off and on. And I was here as a young child at some point, but my memory has never been very good. I could not, as I said, I was in school. I remember that. But I don't remember details.

TI: How about the neighborhood that you lived in, do you remember that?

CH: Well, we were virtually always in Waikiki. We rented an apartment of some kind and it was usually my mother with her children living there. My father was off in New Orleans on some kind of business, I have no idea what. So it was sort of an in and out thing.

TI: During this time in Hawaii, how much contact did you have with Japanese?

CH: Good question. I don't think very much, but I don't know, 'cause I'm not sure... I think the family, being my mother and brother and sister, were going to school. My mother wasn't going to school, but I don't really know.

TI: How about things like, it was common maybe for, like helpers, like maybe a maid or a gardener or things like that, do you recall?

CH: I think we, well it depends. If we were in an apartment we might not have a gardener, might not have a garden, so I don't know, but there was a gardener occasionally. There was a maid frequently, but the details I don't know.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And you mentioned going to Punahou, let's go to your college. What college did you attend?

CH: Swarthmore in Pennsylvania.

TI: And do you know why you chose Swarthmore to go to college?

CH: My father, for some reason, made a list of colleges he recommended and that was one of them, and it was a list that circulated among some of my friends of the family. They ended up going to Swarthmore as I did. What he based his recommendations on I don't know. There might be a copy of it somewhere. I never saw it.

TI: But it sounds like as a child you moved around quite a bit. You were born in New York City, you lived in Hawaii, you went to Pennsylvania.

CH: True. And I paid no attention. You know, as a kid if your family moves you move, so there was no question in my mind as of how come we kept moving or doing things, so it's sort of a fuzzy background.

TI: Okay. No, that's fine. I'm gonna now jump to a date, December 7, 1941. Do you remember that day and what happened?

CH: Not really. Remind me.

TI: So in your memoirs you mention that you were in Toronto. This was the date that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and you were in Toronto having dinner with your brother and his wife. And his wife, I think, was born in Siberia and had spent time in Japan, and I think they were actually cooking a Japanese dinner that night.

CH: Quite likely. She, my brother's wife was a good cook and was often preparing meals. And... something fuzzy there as to why she was preparing this Japanese food.

TI: I think in your memoirs you mention that she had lived in Japan, and so maybe that's why she did.

CH: Yes, true. Her parents were... I do have some faint facts in the back of my head, but...

TI: Well, what I'm interested in is what, if you recall any discussions about the bombing of Pearl Harbor, because you had lived in Hawaii, so you knew where Pearl Harbor was, and do you recall any memories of what you felt or thought when you heard about this?

CH: I don't think I paid much attention. Didn't concern me. It was just something, a fact that, I just went on about whatever I was doing, so I don't think I had a reaction. I don't know. I warned you you weren't gonna get much information. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: But there's something that wasn't mentioned in your memoirs and I wanted to see if I can get this. The names of your mother and your siblings, can you, can you tell me that?

CH: Their names?

TI: Yeah, the name of your, first your mother. What was the name of your mother?

CH: Her mother, my mother was Sage Clark Embree.

TI: And how about your brothers and sisters?

CH: My brother was John Fee, F-E-E, Embree and my sister was Edwina Rogers Embree. That's all.

TI: And then you had one brother or two brothers?

CH: Just one brother, one sister.

TI: Okay. And so when you were in Toronto it was with your brother John, so John was, you had dinner with John.

CH: Well, I was living with my sister.

TI: Okay, with Edwina, okay.

CH: My brother was there, too. Oh boy...

TI: And do you recall why you were in Toronto?

CH: I'm trying to think. Well, I was probably there because they were there and it was a convenience, just, I was much younger than they were.

TI: Now I, this is something, I did a little bit of research about your brother. He may have been going to school there. Is that right? He might've been going to school, either with the university, either as a student getting his graduate degree possibly or teaching?

CH: Could be.

TI: Yeah, I think he was, he was there.

CH: He was, let's see, he was eight years older than I.

TI: And you were about twenty-two years old on that day, so he would've been about twenty, or thirty years old.

CH: I guess so. And what he was doing, I really don't know. I think, I think he maybe was studying. I'm, I don't know.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, so let's keep moving, because a couple months later you were down in Washington, D.C. looking for a job, and you'd had an interview at the Office of Indian Affairs. Do you remember getting a job, or interviewing for a job?

CH: I know I did look for a job in the Indian Bureau. There was some confusion. I interviewed for one kind of job but got another. One had to do with Indians, the other had to do with... I have to think that one over.

TI: Yeah, in your memoirs you applied to get a job working, I think, on an Indian reservation, but then they asked you if you would be interested in working with, at that point they called a Japanese relocation camp, is what they asked you.

CH: That's right.

TI: And you thought that that would be a good idea, or that was fine.

CH: Yeah, well see, it made sense to me since I had, had friends that were Japanese, so it wasn't as though they were foreign, but I don't think I used any logic in making the decision. I just was here.

TI: Well, so yeah, so you got the job, and what was interesting to me was you mentioned how this was kind of the first time you, you sort of made a decision on your own, that you talked with the people, they asked you about going to a Japanese relocation center is what they called it, and you said yes. And I think you noted in your memoirs that that was kind of a big moment for you because you decided on your own to do this.

CH: Is that so? You talk about these memoirs. What memoirs?

TI: So this is the book that I'm referring to, Dusty Exile, which you look back at your memories.

CH: Okay. I told you I forgot things very quickly. Okay.

TI: So from D.C., then you went to Chicago to the War Relocation Authority office, or actually, I'm sorry, back then it was still an office for Indian Affairs.

CH: Where was the office?

TI: It was a Chicago office. You were there, and what you did was you decided to become an assistant teacher.

CH: In Arizona.

TI: In Arizona.

CH: Well, I didn't decide. I got on the list to be employed and when they said, you know, "What will you do?" and I had no idea and... whoever, I made a list of jobs and among other things was assistant teacher. I didn't know anything about teaching. I didn't know what an assistant teacher might do, but that sounded reasonable, so I said, "I'll do that." And so they signed me up, and I didn't know what I was getting into and they didn't know that I didn't know anything, so it was all very inexpert. That's the word.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Good, that's... and so with that job you went down to Arizona. Do you remember what it was like when you first got to Arizona?

CH: Not really. I didn't know anybody there. I didn't know what I was going to do, so it was just completely unknown, what I was getting into.

TI: So let me ask you this question, when you first took the train to Arizona you got off at this town named Parker. Parker, Arizona. Do you remember that night, that first night that you arrived at Parker, Arizona?

CH: No.

TI: It was a nice little story where you came in at night, around eleven o'clock at night and you were the only one who got off the train and there was no one there to, to greet you, and so you went to the hotel, but the hotel wouldn't allow single women to get a room there and so you had sort of the gumption to just say, "Well, then I'll just sit in the lobby until the morning." And the clerk said, "Oh, we can't have you do that," so he made a phone call to Indian Affairs and they sent someone over to pick you up. And so it was a really nice little story. [Laughs]

CH: Sounds interesting. [Laughs]

TI: So let's, let's talk about the camp, Poston. Do you remember the camp that you worked at, Poston, the, where they had the Japanese and Japanese Americans?

CH: Well, I must have some memory of it, but from here I don't come up with anything.

TI: Okay, so let me see if I can help you with some, some names and places. When you first got there you had a roommate who was the assistant principal, and her name was Fran and she was someone that was older than you and that kind of showed you around the camp. Do you remember, do you remember Fran?

CH: Faintly. Trying to think of her last name.

TI: Well, I'm curious, just sort of some of the things, maybe, that she showed you or some of the things you did with Fran.

CH: Well, I think she was experienced as a teacher, which I wasn't. She was, she was [inaudible]. But more than that I can't come up with yet, if at all.

TI: One of the things that you wrote about was how with Fran you would walk around the camp and into some of the barracks where the Japanese were in. Do you, can you recall any of that, what the barracks looked like or walking around camp?

CH: No. If I put my mind to it for a while I might come up with some information, but offhand, no. Like I say, my memory is...

TI: No, you're, Catherine, you're doing really well. This is, every once in a while you'll remember something that's really a nice little gem, which is what I'm looking for. How about the other staff? Was there anyone on staff that you remember when you think of, at Poston?

CH: Well, if you mention a name I could probably come up with --

TI: Well I'm thinking maybe the Project Director, oh, let me think of his name...

CH: I need to reread that, [points to book]. It might remind me.

TI: [Laughs] But you mentioned, in camp, with the staff, there were some people who were, what's the right word, maybe closer to the Japanese or felt like they understood the Japanese, and then there was another group that perhaps had more stereotypical views of the Japanese? Do you remember any of that kind of tension or friction on the staff, in terms of how they thought about the Japanese?

CH: Offhand, no, but I'm sure there must've been some friction and ignorance on the part of some of the people in terms of what they were supposed to do or could do. Would take a lot of digging to come up with memories of that. I think I need to reread that and my problem is now that I can't read, visually speaking, and so like these are my, I'd be reading and show me, maybe try to ask questions as we went.

TI: Well yeah, let me see if I can find a passage about some of the people in camp and maybe that will remind you of some things. So one of the things that you did was you worked in the schools and you helped set up the school system in camps, and let me just read a little bit in terms of, about how there was really nothing there. So you taught ninth grade in camp and you write that, quote, "My kids, ninth graders, brought their own chairs to the classroom," and these chairs you had in quotations because they were just assorted boxes to sit on while they listened to, and you said "the teacher" in parentheses, because as you mentioned you weren't really trained as a teacher and yet you, you had to, you were put in a position to train them, and that you just had an empty room with no furniture, so your ninth grade students would bring boxes to sit on.

CH: News to me. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, you had no books, no paper, and eventually things start coming in. One example you mentioned was how California scrapped their textbooks, and so you just got this big, like, load of books just in piles and then people had to sort through them to find textbooks for the students. And it was just a nice way of explaining how really there was nothing for schools and how you and the other teachers had to figure out ways to, to teach all these students who were there.

CH: Amazing.

TI: Yeah, so you have all that.

CH: You should've had this interview with me a huge number of years ago.

TI: No, that's fine. Something else happened when you were there, that your brother John came to visit you at, in Arizona, at the camp. Do you remember that at all? And let me set it up in terms of how you told it. John was working with the WRA as an analyst, a community analyst out of D.C., and so he was a pretty high level official in the camp administration, so he was gonna come visit Poston, but I don't think people realized that he was your brother.

CH: Probably not. Because there was a gap in our age. He was eleven years older than I was, for instance, so see, I was probably just a piece of furniture, of no importance, so I'm sure they weren't making the right deduction about who, who for what and so on.

TI: Yeah, so he came and I think the staff was impressed that, that this high level official was your brother.

CH: Yes, I think, sort of think they doubted it very much.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: You know, something else that you were doing, some of the students, after they graduated from high school, wanted to go to college. Do you recall helping any of the students go to college or anything like that?

CH: I can imagine wanting to help them, but I'm not sure at that point how I should help them, because I wasn't, I didn't know much about what, what a college education could do for you. I think I went into it quite blind and just assumed that if I had an idea it was good one. Not sure.

TI: It's kind of interesting because in your book you said almost a very similar thing, that you didn't feel like you were in any way an expert about college or how to prepare for college or even go to college, but yet these, and you mentioned primarily girls, would come to you to get advice because they didn't even know how to take a train, or if they were going to go back East and had to go through Chicago, how would they even make a transfer in Chicago? So these were all stories or, or information that they looked to you to get. And you talked about even getting friends and family in Chicago to help some of these girls as they would make their way.

CH: Yes, I think I have a faint memory of that, and I'd just refer the person to, it'd probably be the name of my mother and father in Chicago, and depend on my parents to pick up the pieces, but, and I think they did help in many ways. But I wasn't there, so I can't report.

TI: No, that's good. And that's what you wrote in the book, how you would contact your parents and they would meet them at the train station, and if they had to stay overnight they would take care of them or if they had to make a transfer, if they needed food or even money, these were all things that you arranged for, again, primarily girls going to college, to places like Swarthmore, that you arranged for, contacted these colleges to help them get admitted and things like that.

CH: Well, sounds reasonable.

TI: Do you recall the town Parker very much? This was a small town outside of Poston where they would have things like stores, a theater, restaurants, I think a couple bars, that sometimes the staff would go there, the MPs would go there. Do you recall Parker very much?

CH: If I was talking to somebody who was familiar with it, some detail might come back. The name Parker registers as a town, but beyond that, no.

TI: Unfortunately, in your book you don't mention specific places so much, but you talked about the people and how some of them were not very tolerant of the Japanese, that some places had like a sign that wouldn't let Japanese come inside. That, I guess one story I remember, up at like the gas station, that they wouldn't, the gas station owner wouldn't even let Japanese get off the truck to get a bottle of soda or anything like that. They, they were pretty intolerant of the Japanese in Parker and I was wondering if you remember any of that.

CH: I think, I assume that people in Parker were not tolerant of the Japanese, but I couldn't prove it one way or the other from here.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: There was, inside the camp, there was an incident. This was a few months, or just, actually, a couple months after you were there, and it was a protest by the Japanese and Japanese Americans. What had happened was there was a man that was beat up in his barrack and so the internal police, they were holding two men and the rest of the, or a lot of the Japanese protested that and it was called, not really a riot, but there was a protest and then a strike in camp. Do you recall any of that? It was a pretty dramatic kind of moment at Poston because the project director was out at the time so they had an interim or acting director who was less experienced, and so it was kind of a touchy moment in terms of should they call in the MPs to, to sort of stop everything or should they talk with the people, and I was wondering if you recall that at all. It was in November of '42.

CH: I'm sure I must have some memory of that, but from here...

TI: Yeah, it was kind of interesting because you, because amongst the staff there was quite a bit of discussion, trying to decide which, how they should handle the situation. And luckily what happened was they, they sat down and talked with people and eventually the administration released the two fellows and then everything went back to normal, so I was just curious if you remember that.

CH: Well, if I try to live through it some might come back, but from right here, no.

TI: Okay. There was another situation. They had everyone in camp fill out this questionnaire and it was called an Application for Leave Clearance. It was a questionnaire so that if they filled it out some people could then leave camp. I think internally people called it the "loyalty questionnaire," and there were two questions on there about whether or not people would serve in the military and how they felt about the emperor of Japan which were sort of controversial. So some people answered "no-no", meaning that they're, that they didn't want to serve for the United States and they didn't want to turn away from the emperor of Japan and some people answered "yes-yes" where they said they would serve for the U.S. military and they would turn away from the emperor or didn't have anything to do with the emperor. Do you recall that, that questionnaire? In your book you talked about you help interview the people who actually had to fill out the questionnaire and you helped them make sure that they understood the questions and how to answer.

CH: At that point I probably did. I used to... let's see, I do believe it was a tricky situation, wasn't that clear to the people if they needed to answer, how...

TI: Okay, that's, and so what I'm doing, I'm just kind of walking through and anything that you can remember is what I'm looking for. During this time, your parents were in Chicago and I believe there was an illness in the family, because that's why you left Poston, to go back to Chicago to live for, I think, a couple years. Do you remember, do you remember that, going back to Chicago?

CH: Well, I know I went back to Chicago, but the why and where, if I went back to live with my parents or did I live somewhere else... whole gap of years in there that I don't remember.

TI: Yeah, so what, in your book you talk about how, so you were at Poston for about a year and then you went back to Chicago for, let's see, it'd be '42, '43, for another two years in Chicago, and then at the end of the war, so right after the war ended, November 1945, you returned to Poston. And that was to, in some ways, I think, to get together with your husband, or your husband to be. Do you remember going back to Poston? He was the education director.

CH: I'm trying to think of the chronology of it. I have to apply my mind to get any real memories. From here I don't remember when or how come.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So Catherine, the question I wanted to ask was how did you meet your husband?

CH: Well, we were both there in the same place. He was a trained teacher. He had some experience on the job, which I didn't. So at that point in history I wasn't really paying close attention to detail or to personalities, anything. Just a matter, we were both there, other people were there. Need to apply my memory much more.

TI: Now, do you remember what it was about him that attracted you to him?

CH: He was a man. I was young. I don't know, he was, he was a friendly person and polite to people and fairly young and nice looking, so I guess I reacted as a female to a male. I don't think he was impressed at all, I don't think. I was just a figure in a room or whatever. But we were living in a small, don't know what the word would be, but a group of people boarded in a, what amounted to a... I would say a small group.

TI: Kind of like a dormitory sort of situation?

CH: Yes.

TI: Okay.

CH: And how many of us there were I have no idea, and whether the dormitory had males and females or just males in one and females in the other I don't remember. What I don't remember is too much.

TI: How about dating your husband, how did that work out? How did the two of you first start dating?

CH: I'd really have to put my mind to it, 'cause there were other men, other women and we sort of socialized in the dining room, so forth. It was a perfectly amiable group, but how it worked out I'd have to think about.

TI: And what was your husband's name?

CH: Arthur, L for Lee, Harris.

TI: And tell me again, what was his job at Poston? What did he do?

CH: You ask the most difficult questions. [Laughs] Well, he was a teacher and he was hired to be a teacher. And how he got there I don't know. I don't remember that well how many people were involved, but there were several men and women hired to teach and he was one of them.

TI: So tell me about the marriage. Where did you and Arthur get married?

CH: Well that was quite a long time from when we first met. However long it was I couldn't guess, and I don't think when we first met that either one of us was figuring in terms of getting together. He had a wife and I think she wasn't expecting him to wander off, but then we just came along sort of naturally and that was that.

TI: Okay, and in your book you mention how after the war you return to Poston to help close the camp down, so this is after all the Japanese had, had left, and you helped do a lot of the clerical work to shut the camp down, reports and things like that. It must've been interesting because before you had thousands and thousands of people and then it was just down to just a few staff people to, that was left. And do you remember that at all?

CH: Not really.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So from Poston you then move to Washington, D.C., after the war, and then you did a lot of clerical work, first with the WRA and then, I think, another agency that, that sort of took a lot of the staff. So do you remember going to Washington, D.C., and working there?

CH: No. I have a feeling it just sort of happened. Days went by and this changed and that changed. I don't...

TI: There was one event that I wanted to see if you could recall, and it was when you were back in Washington, D.C. President Truman, it was a rainy day, wanted, what was the right term, addressed the 442nd, the troops, the Japanese Americans who fought in Europe came to Washington, D.C. and President Truman gave a speech in front of the 442. And it was a rainy day and in your book you mention that you were there, and I wanted to see if you remember any of that, this, I believe it was like a, I think it was a Sunday, rainy. It was in July, so it might've been hot and muggy, but you remember, if you remember any of that?

CH: Back up to the last sentence.

TI: Yeah, the last sentence, meaning it was, it was in July, so it might've been a muggy, you know, hot, muggy day.

CH: Was it outdoors?

TI: After the war.

CH: Was it outdoors?

TI: Yes, it was outdoors.

CH: I have a faint memory of... but not really. I've got to read that book again.

TI: [Laughs] And so you're now living in Hawaii and in Hawaii there are lots of Japanese Americans. Do you ever talk about the war with Japanese Americans and your experiences?

CH: I may have in the past. I don't know because I don't, I don't see them when I'm talking with them. There's no setting that would lead to that and I don't associate with very many people anymore. My age enters in, so that's basically the past. It doesn't affect the present.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: So Catherine, we're at an hour, so we're coming to the end of the interview, but I just want to acknowledge you and thank you, 'cause I read the book and it's clear to me that you were in the camps and you helped a lot of Japanese Americans during a very difficult time for many of them. I mean, not only were you there to help teach them, but then you helped find them places outside the camps using your friends and your family to reach out and get them in colleges and jobs at, again, a time when a lot of people wouldn't have done that. And that's why I wanted to be here to meet you and to talk to you, because it is a very honorable thing that you did, so thank you.

CH: Well, I, even at the time I guess I was conscious that I was behaving differently from some American citizens, but I didn't impress that myself that much, but just that it was part of my background.

TI: And so what was it about your background that had you look at these things a little bit differently than most Americans?

CH: Well, I don't really know. I think it was to a large extent just the facts, that they were there, I was there, and it just fell into place without deliberate, oh, I must behave this way or anything like that. I just was there. This isn't a very satisfactory answer. [Laughs]

TI: No, I think that's a very good answer, because you were there and they were there and you knew each other. You were face to face, so you knew, as you said, the facts. It wasn't based on what other people were saying or what other people were writing. It was that personal face to face understanding, or what you say, the facts, is I think what you're saying. I mean, that, that's, I think, a great answer. I think, when I think about why we do these interviews, it's so that people can see the people and in some ways get the facts from the people who lived the experience, rather than, again, just reading about it or just hearing about it. We think it's important to actually talk with the people who were there. And so this is why we wanted to spend some time with you and, and this was, you did really well. This is, I know it's hard to remember these things 'cause they happened so long ago.

CH: Yes, you should've start, started working on this several decades ago. It would've come easier. [Laughs]

TI: Well fortunately, you, you wrote a book about this and this was published in 1999, so about twelve years ago was when this book came out, and so it's an excellent book and I think a lot of people have read this and we covered lots of the things that were written in the book. So I think, so I think we did a good job here.

CH: From your point of view I would think you'd find that very frustrating to try and get factual information, clear and so on.

TI: No, no, this was fine. Is there anything else you want to say on the record? I mean, we're here, we have a camera. Is there anything else that you'd like to say?

CH: Like what?

TI: Oh, when you think about maybe, and I'm not sure how much you follow current events in terms of our country, and how when I read the paper sometimes or listen to the news sometimes I hear a lot of fear and hate in our world today and how some of the things that happened to Japanese Americans seventy years ago, I worry that they're happening again today, that it's easy for Americans to, when they get afraid, target certain groups, examples being maybe Muslims today or Arab Americans. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about that, if you've been following that or have any, any thoughts?

CH: Could probably happen. That, people's behavior and attitudes can change from year to year, but I wouldn't guess. I'm surprised you'd be able to find anything like facts from the past, but you're trying. Wish you luck.

TI: Well do you think our country, the United States is getting better or worse at kind of these race relationships? Your father did work with African Americans very early, your brother did lots of work with Asia, and so you've lived a long life and you've seen a lot happen. How would you, how do you think about the United States and changes that's been made?

CH: Well, I think it improves some way, goes backward some ways. I'm not sure it's really changed a whole lot. There's still prejudice in different settings. I guess I'm really not sure whether we're improving. I think we could use some improving if we put our minds to it, but I don't think we're about to.

TI: How about Hawaii, Honolulu? You were here as a child and now many years later you're here again. How has Honolulu changed?

CH: Well, I think Honolulu's, compared to other states, in pretty good condition, racially speaking and in attitude. Whether it could use a lot more improvement I'm not sure. You can always improve somewhat more, but I really, but I think Hawaii is fairly lucky in its race relations and acceptance of the rest of the world, but I'm maybe I'm seeing a golden reflection that isn't there. I must say, I'm not putting my mind to it much these days.

TI: Okay, good. Well that's, I think that's all my questions and, and this was, this was helpful, so thank you for, again, taking the time to do this.

CH: Well I'm sorry I couldn't come up with more facts, but memory is a very limited item.

TI: Yeah. It must be sometimes difficult to realize that at one point you had all these things in your memory and not being able to talk about them, remember.

CH: Yeah. Some people have better memories than other people and that can't be changed. So it goes.

TI: Okay, very good. Well thank you again, for...

CH: You're quite welcome. I wish I could've been more helpful, but that's life.

TI: No, this was, this was good.