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TI: So I want to go back to San Rafael and what it was like growing up in San Rafael for you, 'cause I think you mentioned earlier there was no Japanese up there, so what, who were your playmates growing up?

PJH: My playmates, my cats and dog. [Laughs] We lived on about, about two acres of property up in the hills in San Rafael. Very modest home, but a lot of trees. I remember growing up being a tomboy, climbing the trees, being like my brother, who would refuse to have anything to do with me. He would have friends that would come over, if I would tag along they would be really mean to me, try to get rid of me. So I was pretty much to myself, until about maybe four years old, there was another family next door to me that moved in. It was a Air Force man and his war bride from Japan and they had two children, and so the two children became my friends. Judy Flannery, Judy was blonde and blue eyes when she was little and she came knocking at the door -- and this is my mom answering the door -- and here's Japanese just comin' out of her mouth. She's kind of like startled, blonde, blue eyes. But Judy and I became really good friends.

TI: So your neighbor, Air Force, Japanese wife?

PJH: Japanese wife?

TI: And the children, blonde, blue eyes, so not hapa?

PJH: They were hapa, yeah. Her features started to change, because as she got a little bit older her eyes turned light brown and her hair turned light brown.

TI: So now you had playmates, then.

PJH: I had playmates.

TI: And they spoke Japanese.

PJH: The, I think there was that going on in the very beginning, but because she had, she was one year ahead of me she had to be immersed into school, so she had to learn English very rapidly. She was exposed to hearing English because of her father, but, yeah, her English developed very quickly when she was in public school. I never thought about that. We just seemed to just get along and, and play.

TI: Well that's why I'm curious, at what point did you become aware of your, that you were Japanese, or I mean, you looked different than others?

PJH: It wasn't until kindergarten. First day of kindergarten. So I have to say that before kindergarten I was a really confident kid, just full of myself. [Laughs] But once I went to school it, all of a sudden, the fingers started to be pointed at me and the "Ching Chong Chinaman," slant eyes, "Why is your nose flat?" That, actually, "why is your nose flat?" was the first day of school, and it really hurt me. Like, what do you mean? I can't remember being in an accident or anything. So going home that evening I, it was very hard for me, I think, to articulate what I was feeling, but my mom could obviously see I was, you know, not a, not happy camper, so I go, "My nose flat, my nose flat. Why is my nose flat?" She, then she said, "Well, you are of a different nationality." I can't understand this. "You're Japanese." And I remember at that time, "I don't want to be Japanese. I want to be like all the other kids." 'Cause I'm already getting taunted, so I want to just blend. I want to be accepted. Those are, yeah, some of the...

TI: And describe, so your classmates, what kind of community was San Rafael in terms of the families?

PJH: Oh, I was the only Asian in school, I believe.

TI: Were there other non whites in San Rafael?

PJH: Not to my recollection. In my class absolutely no color. I was the only one, but then my first "friend" was a Polish girl and, again, I think because other classmates would consider her different because she couldn't speak English very well, we became friends. So I can remember that pain of not being accepted.

TI: Were the families, like the occupations of the parents, was it more working class or middle class? What's your sense of San Rafael?

PJH: I think it was a combination working class and middle class. Yeah, San Rafael at that, it's known now as being kind of like a fairly affluent area, but the neighborhood that I grew up and I think it was a lot of working class.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.