<Begin Segment 24>

TI: I mean, so in your opinion, I mean, were there people in Tule Lake who potentially could pose a threat to the United States? I mean, were they, were there some people that were perhaps dangerous?

JY: What was that again?

TI: So were there people at Tule Lake who could pose a threat to the United States? I mean, were there some people who were potentially dangerous?

JY: No. That's the part that they were very, very careful. There was three, four of 'em worked in our office, they were all shaved heads, right? But they'd never talk about it at work. They'd never talk bad at work, and never one time, they ever made a threat that, "We're gonna kill all the administration people." Nor, never. There was a big, big flag, I think it must have been about 8x10 flag, middle of camp. That flag was never desecrated. So they know where they belong, they know exactly how far they can go, so the intimidation was used individually. You have four thousand of 'em, four thousand, you get another four thousand, right? They're gonna get half of it anyway, right? There's two thousand, two thousand goes out into it.

TI: So you're saying that they weren't really a threat, they were... I'm not quite...

JY: No. Yeah, no threat. Just verbal abuse. Verbally, verbally, verbally, verbally. Not really say, "Hey, you're a damn fool," or that. "You should, it's good. We're gonna win this war, you should go back with us to Japan. There's no, nothing wrong with it." Said, "I lived there for ten years to twenty years, it was real good. I had a good life." Because you figure if he had, or his uncle, whatever it is, there was five kids in the family and one of 'em went back to Japan. Okay, grandma, uncle, auntie, who's supporting your one child over there? Well, you need ten dollars or twenty dollars. Okay, that's easy to give 'em, write a check for twenty or thirty dollars, send it back to Japan. It blows up three hundred times, right? So the kids lived a good life. He wanted a pair of shoe, his grandpa or grandma, uncle or auntie writes home, "Hey, your child needs a new shoe," so he would get some money. But meantime, the four other brothers and sisters suffering. It was the Depression years, was struggling to make a buck. Even make a dime it was a struggle. So he lived, for the majority of 'em, I wouldn't say all of 'em, but the majority of 'em lived a pretty good life in Japan. I have one, my sister. To this day, she's different. She was there only for eight, nine years, but just looking at that alone, you can tell.

TI: Yeah, and this is why it's hard for me or confusing, because for those Niseis who were in Japan, so you mentioned how, so they got sort of the education about the emperor and the importance, and so when they were in the camps, I mean, there's this combination of being treated really badly, I mean, being thrown in camps, not doing anything wrong. I mean, that's going to want to turn you against the U.S. government, and then plus you have this sort of Japanese influence. And so I'm trying to get a sense of the balance in terms of where people were in terms of how they felt about, about their treatment. Is it, were they angry because of how they were treated, or were they more angry because they were more for Japan? I mean, that's what I'm trying to understand.

JY: I think they were more for Japan. They were, all they could remember, the good life they had in Japan. Okay. The parents are supporting one over there, and over here they got to support five, right? So, to support one, it's easy to send money to one, and it'll keep her or his mouth shut. And the other thing, too, when they broke away from their family, they're eighteen, they break away from the family, so they sign "no-no," "The heck with you guys, I'm going to go back to Japan where my life was a lot easier than here." They can't speak the language, they can't understand the language, they can't understand the customs. So they got a chance to break away from the family, so they broke away. Now, there's no more money, right? You can't speak English, you can't get a job. They don't want to do menial work, they don't want to keep the boiler tender, wash dishes or waitress or whatever it is. They don't want to do that because that's too menial. So financially they're hurting, so they figure, they go back to Japan, live with Uncle, "He treated me good. Or my grandparents. So I'm going back to live with my uncle." And this side here, "Hell no, we're not going to go back to Japan." That was the big conflict. "We struggled through the Depression here, we came this far, we're doing good, why should we have to go back to Japan?"

SF: Did people realize how bad Japan was economically at that point?

JY: Well, it wasn't like anything else, there's an emperor that will never die. He's the holy man of the whole Japan. As long as emperor don't say anything, "we're okay, we're in good shape." I mean, you know, the mentality, like one of the guys I think you interviewed, the kamikaze pilot, never went there. He says, he had no qualms about going to war, die a kamikaze pilot. He didn't have no qualms. That's how strongly, to this day, he still, he talks about that, right? He says, "I was all ready to go," says, "I wasn't ever thinking about coming back. I was going to die with the bomb on the belly." So that's how much instillment they have. They start 'em small, so they, you know, gradually build that strong, would you say, tie to the emperor. "We'd die for the emperor." Right? That's what he said.

TI: Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to understand, because I'm hearing some of that stories about how powerful that pull is.

JY: Yeah, yeah. So same thing, the Kibei, the power of the, living over there, that the life was pretty good. Can't beat it.

TI: And for the Isseis, I mean, the Isseis were there and got all that, but then they lived, most of them lived in the United States for decades. And so it's, again, probably confusing there, too, in terms of where their --

JY: Yeah, well, lot of Isseis, I know all the Isseis that I had direct contact with, none of 'em ever said that they want to go back to Japan. Only one was the Kibeis, said, "These guys don't know what good life is about." That's what they tell you. Because they had a good life, let's face it. One out of five, right?

TI: And generally they were the ones most recently in Japan also.

JY: That's right, yeah.

TI: Because even the Isseis --

JY: Up to date. They were really up to date. Like my sister, she wanted this, she wanted that, we didn't know about it. We were kids, didn't know. She got everything, we found that out when she came back to the United States. "Why can't I get it?" "Why can't I get it?" "What can't I get this thing?" "Jiichan got it for me."

SF: But did the Kibeis feel abandoned by their parents? I mean, say, they were over there with the grandparents or their uncle or aunt? Like my uncle, he felt resentment because he was sent over there and kept over there and not with the family. Was that the case with your sister?

JY: That part there, I don't know too much. I mean, I haven't... well, I'm just trying to think of the Kibeis that I know. I don't know. They had... with the Kibeis, a lot of 'em that had internal problem in the family, like a lot of Kibeis are, the oldest one in the family, the first son, the first daughter was sent back to Japan. When they came back, they were the first one, they were the oldest, so they got the land in their name, right? 'Cause Issei could not have the land in their name so it was in their child's name. And then when the parents passed on, the land, they inherited this 30, 40 acres of land here, he's, Roy, he's the oldest, he's a Kibei. Not saying he's Kibei, he's the oldest, so the land is in Roy's name. Now, the war comes along, Roy says, "Hey, that's my land, this is my name." Lot of families really, I know three or four family I know, that the oldest brother took everything with him, rest of the brothers and sisters didn't get nothing out of the deal. So that split the family. So I was telling one family, says, "When we get together, reunion, we have about 120 of us get together for reunion." And this guy says, "If I get two guys together, I'd be lucky. And we have eight kids, eight brothers and sisters, eight siblings." So that's how badly they're split up. So there's that good and bad and everything, but that's another story. But coercion. That word "coercion," that's where Wayne Collins used very strong, "coerced." They were coerced.

TI: I think we have a wrap. [Laughs] Thanks, Jimi.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.