<Begin Segment 23>

SF: So in 1944 when the Hoshidan, the dissident groups were active at Tule Lake, all of that probably was due to their treatment that they had gotten, being thrown into camp and to be otherwise insulted and degraded by the war and the questioning and all of that, caused that. Is that what your observation is?

JY: Well, I don't think so. Yes, lot of 'em were treated badly, but then again, lot of it was brought upon themselves. Lot of 'em were Kibeis and they were in Japan. Instilled in certain things, that you got to honor the emperor and this and that. And you look at the records, majority of the so-called leaders of the Hoshidan was Kibeis, majority of them. There were very, very few Niseis. Well, I don't know if you have a Kibei brother or sister in your family or uncle or auntie that's a Kibei.

SF: My mom was a Kibei.

JY: You have, then you compare that with your parents. You talk to them, even today, if they were alive today, when you talk to them, one of 'em say, "This is black," and, "This is white." Now, this big a thing, they make gray out of it. Let's see if we can compromise. This side is, the one says white, he'll come over 75 percent, then he will never move. He says, "It's got to be this way." The Kibei will stand his ground. He will not move. But the Nisei will move over to him as close as he can, but he could never get 'em together. Okay, now Hoshidan, the structure of the Hoshidan was, you got to backtrack and see it yourself. When the Kibeis all came to the United States before the war, right? Some of 'em came after the war, majority of 'em came before the war, they graduated high school. Most of 'em graduated high school and came back to the United States. Now, by the time they graduated high school, they're pretty well instilled how the emperor is the person. He's the god of everything, right? That's Japan way. Everything's emperor. Now, if you get a person of that thinking, like myself, I never been to Japan. After war, yeah, I've been, but before the war, never been to Japan, I don't know what the heck it's all about. And they come and try to tell me something like that, "The emperor's number one, the emperor."

Well, to satisfy their own mind, so what they did -- I don't know if you heard this before or not -- but they'll go over to the bathroom, brush their teeth along side of you. "Hey, you got to join the Hoshidan." Or if you're not there, say you're too young to understand, say your father's there, he'll go to your father, lunchtime, "Your kids should join the Hoshidan, it's good. We're gonna go to Japan. Japan is gonna win the war." He sits down for dinner, he sits there, "Yeah your son should join the Hoshidan." Go to shower, he's there alongside in the shower you are, right? Everybody's assigned the people to talk to. The girls got assigned, she goes to the toilet, she goes to the toilet. She goes to the mess hall, she goes to the mess hall. Sits across them, just sit there. To get rid of 'em, said, "Oh, urusai. Okay, I'll join." That's why the word "coercion" is used very, very strong. They were coerced. Right? You probably read that word over and over. Yeah, they were coerced. The biggest problem to me, the way now I look at it is look back and the condition it was, like the renunciation, the WRA pushed to prove that there are a bunch of disloyal guys that renounced their citizenship, ship 'em back to Japan. They never even came from Japan, but they want to ship 'em back to Japan. The first go around they only got three, four hundred, nothing happened. Nothing happened. I'm pretty sure, I mean, I have no proof, but knowing the WRA, knowing the staff and knowing what they were pushing for, or the outside that was pushing for, said, "We got to do something. We passed a law, and nothing happened. Four hundred, that's nothing. There's 120,000 'Japs' out there. We got to twist 'em around and get 'em around." So the Hoshidan was in full force then. Were really in power. They were giving the administration a bad time. So I think some way or other, they finagled and turned them around, promised them something, I don't know. I don't know, I don't think I'm right or wrong, I don't know. But this is what happened to me, when I saw all this happening, the Hoshidan people started going around to different people like Steve, says, "Hey Steve, you got to renounce your citizenship. America's not going to win the war, we're gonna win the war, I'm going to Japan, you come with me," and so forth. And just same way, the tactic they used to join the Hoshidan. They eat and sleep with you twenty-four hours a day. And so gradually they got four thousand of 'em signed up. "We got the number we wanted." Bingo. Next day they put three hundred of the Hoshidan guys and sent 'em to Fort Lincoln. Another week later, another three hundred got shipped to Fort Lincoln.

TI: So it's almost like the administration used the Hoshidan to, to... it was like, in both the Hoshidan and in the administration's best interests to get a lot of people to renounce their citizenship?

JY: That's coerced, that's the word, that "coerce" was used. That's why Wayne Collins used the word "coerce." Who coerced? The WRA coerced the Hoshidan. But they can't prove it, but they were coerced.

TI: So it sounds like there a core Hoshidan, which was maybe more pro-Japan, but there was this other larger group that more coerced to go along with that.

JY: The odd part of the whole thing, this is a fact, that the main ringleader, top lieutenants of the Hoshidan, when the gates were opened, they walked out.

TI: I don't understand that. Say that again? Which gate?

JY: They didn't renounce their citizenship. They were "yes-yes," and they were, they didn't sign the repatriation paper to go to Japan.

TI: Oh, so when...

JY: When the gates were opened --

TI: At Tule Lake, they just walked off.

JY: Walked out.

TI: I see. And so the people...

JY: Like my dad, he just walked right when the gates were opened, he walked right out of the gate. 'Cause he didn't sign nothing, just... but anyway, that was 1945, so spring of '45, he left.

SF: When you talk about the coercion of the Hoshidan to the other people, was that, like, kind of physical threat or was it just trying to talk you into it?

JY: No, it's just mental, mental. Suppose somebody said, cross you three times a day, take a shower with you, go to crapper with you... I mean, eventually it'd get to you, right? To get him off our back. I mean, somebody that's... I don't know, it could be anybody. "Come on, Steve, you know." Every so often inject, "Hey, you should join." Talk about something else, "Hey, you should join. You should sign your renunciation paper." I mean, somebody do that every day, three times a day, four times, five times, six times a day. Three times for meal, people go in the shower, morning time, brush your teeth, nighttime you brush your teeth.

SF: Were there cases where some hot-tempered Nisei guys would, "Get out of here or I'll beat you up"?

JY: Huh?

SF: "Get out of here, get out of my face?"

JY: You say, get out of your face, then somebody else come along. Then Michael comes, "Hey, Steve, how are you guys doing? How about joining our group? We got a good group out there." He says, "Mike, get the heck out of here," then get Pete over here. By that time, you're up to here, right? So, you know, that's why I didn't stay around the house too long, the barracks too long. I worked six days a week, six to six, and then when I get back in, but... so you don't live it, you don't understand it.

TI: Yeah, that's why I'm really curious because I think it's, you were there and you observed all that.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2011 Densho. All Rights Reserved.