Densho Digital Archive - Jimmie S. Matsuda Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Okay, so I'm gonna start, Jimmie, and the way I start this is just by the date and everything, so today's January 25, 2011, and we're in San Jose at the Japanese American Museum of San Jose. Interviewing with me is Steve Fugita and on camera is Dana Hoshide, and my name is Tom Ikeda. So Jimmie, I'm gonna just start with, can you tell me where and when you were born?

JM: I was born in a small town named Hood River. It's in Oregon.

TI: And what was your birthday?

JM: Oh, my birthday was June the 16th, 1927.

TI: Okay, so that makes you about eighty, what, eighty-three years old?

JM: Eighty-three years old. Old man now.

TI: [Laughs] No, you look great. And tell me, what was the name given to you at birth?

JM: Just the way it is, Jimmie Susumu Matsuda. That's on my birth certificate, too, like that.

TI: Good, okay.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So next I want to talk about your father, so can you tell me your father's name and where he was, where he's from?

JM: My father's name is Uichi, U-I-C-H-I, Matsuda. And he had a farm, maybe out in the country... No, no, no. Inado, where the air base was. Shindenbaru ka. Oh, Shindenbaru. Shindenbaru, it's a, he had a farm out there.

TI: And this is, like, in Fukuoka ken or...

JM: Yeah, it's in Fukuoka ken.

TI: Good. And, and can you tell me why he decided to leave Japan?

JM: Well, the way I hear is that that time the first generations, they were coming to America and they said, "Hey, we can make money and after we get rich, then we can go back to Japan," and so I guess they all followed that voice, thought, oh, that's good. But the way I looked at it when I start growin' up, they couldn't speak much English, they must've had a tough time.

TI: And do you know about how old he was when he came?

JM: Oh, he was still young yet. Gee, he must've been thirty-something years old because he used to use the horses and everything, get the saddle and everything. And the food, too, he used to carry that hundred pound bag and bring it to the barn and everything.

TI: So when he first came to the United States, where did he go first?

JM: He was a place where, well, I guess he wanted to farm, so the friend of ours -- I guess you heard, too, that Yasui was the father -- not Min -- he found us the land that we can lease, and that was a small place called Viento. Right now it's by the Columbia River and it's a very, very popular place because the wind, the breeze comes in real good, so a lot of windsurfers go there in the summertime.

TI: Yeah, it's a world class windsurfing place there.

JM: Yeah. Yes, right there it is.

TI: And so your father, this is the Hood River area.

JM: Yes, yes.

TI: And you mentioned a Yasui. This is Min Yasui's father.

JM: Yeah.

TI: Was there a family connection between the Yasuis and the Matsudas?

JM: No, I think he must've known that people from the, coming from Japan that, since he was a lawyer and thing like, that help out everything, because my parents didn't know English at all that time.

TI: And so what, what kind of farming did your...

JM: Vegetable. Asparagus, potatoes, tomatoes, cucumbers, squash, and what else was there?

TI: And how did, or who did he sell the produce to?

JM: The produce was that we, every weekend, that, our family and everybody -- and we had people working for us, too, Japanese laborer and the Filipino -- and we'll put, on the weekend, pack it into boxes and my dad had a two ton truck, we'd load it on that on the weekend and bring it to the Portland market. We leave in the nighttime and wait 'til the doors open, then we'd drive the truck in the building and then that's when they start selling.

TI: And so Portland had, like a farmers' market?

JM: Yeah, yeah, it's more like a farmers' market and everything. Yeah.

SF: Was that Japanese-run, Jimmie, the market?

JM: No, no. Yeah, anybody, Italians and everybody, anybody could go in there.

TI: Good. And let's talk a little bit about your mother now. So what was your mother's name and where was she from?

JM: Mother's name, Hatsu. Hatsue. Hatsue, and her maiden name would be Dantani. That was my uncle's name.

TI: And where did she grow up?

JM: She grew up... [address off camera]

Off camera: Inado.

JM: Inado. Oh, okay. Inado.

Off camera: But Shindenbaru.

JM: Shindenbaru, Inado. Yeah.

TI: And what kind of work did her family do?

JM: I don't know about that, and she didn't know it either, but their relatives are all wealthy people. They had sawmills and everything in Japan, too.

TI: And so, for your mother, education-wise, how much schooling did she have?

JM: I think they barely finished seventh grade before they came over here.

TI: So how did your mother and father meet?

JM: I guess they were married. [Laughs] I... yeah. The, it's, in Japan you have certain villages and everything, so they all know each other and it's the same group there and they met.

TI: Okay, and so they got married in Japan. So was your, did they come to the United States together, or did your father come to the United States first?

JM: No, they came together.

TI: Okay. And so they're in Hood River and they start having children. So let's talk about your siblings, and let's go down the list of the siblings.

JM: The big one or the...

TI: Yeah, from the first one all the way down.

JM: First one was my sister. Her name was Amy, Emiko. And the second one was Sadako. She's still living, surviving in Stockton. And the third one is Fumiko. Three girls, three sisters, and then my younger brother was Fred Mitsuru. That's his Japanese name, you know, Fred Mitsuru Matsuda. And then Billy, B-I-L-L-Y, Billy Kiyoshi Matsuda, and he was still, just gettin' ready to go to kindergarten that time.

TI: Okay, so there were six, six children.

JM: Yes.

TI: And Amy was the oldest?

JM: The oldest one, yes.

TI: And she was born about, what, 1920, '21?

JM: I guess. They were, she was going to high school, anyway.

TI: Yeah, so she was probably about six years older, six or seven?

JM: Yeah.

TI: And then Sadako, Fumiko, then you were fourth, and then... so it's three girls and then three boys.

JM: Yeah, three boys.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Okay, so we, we just talked about the six children. So I want to just get a sense of Hood River, before the war and you growing up and what Hood River was like, so talk about sort of the family life. What, like a typical day for you when you woke up, what was that like?

JM: Well, on the weekends and on holidays and in the wintertime, what we'd do is, when it snows, nobody raises fruit or we can't even work in the field, so they all gather and play Hanafuda, the adults. And then we're happy, too, because we can eat all the Japanese sushi and things like that. And if, if one week we'll go to a certain place, it changed, going to each house, and that's the way they sort of kept on going.

TI: And so when you went around the houses, was it just the menfolk or did the whole family...

JM: The whole family. The whole family.

TI: Okay. And let's talk about a typical day, maybe in the summertime now, so talk about that in terms of waking up, the chores you might have and different things like that.

JM: Well, summer and winter too, both, I had to get up early, feed the horses, I'd go to the barn and feed the horse and bring 'em to the irrigation gates and drink water and thing like that. I'd kind of brush 'em off a little bit and then bring back into the barn.

TI: So this was before breakfast, you would, the first thing you would do?

JM: Before I went to school too, yeah, I had to do that.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So tell me about going to school. How close was school?

JM: We had to catch a bus. It was five miles from where we lived and every morning we'd catch a bus and then come home around four, five o'clock every day.

TI: And let's talk about school first, so tell me about your school. I mean, how many other Japanese were at this school?

JM: Oh, we had quite a few Japanese. Let's see, we had Wakamatsu, Okamura... oh, maybe eight different Japanese, I mean, families, were going there.

TI: And so how big a class, like --

JM: The class was very small. Like if I was in the sixth grade, well, there'd be maybe six or seven, and then the seventh graders too, there'd be maybe four or five, and so the teacher, we'll have maybe one teacher teaching the classes like that.

TI: And how many non Japanese were in the class?

JM: There were at least two thirds of, in the class.

TI: So two thirds were Japanese and one third was non Japanese?

JM: Yeah.

TI: And how did the different races get along with each other, Japanese and non-Japanese?

JM: We got along pretty good, 'cause I was in a lot of sports, too, at school, playing football and baseball. But there was one family, hakujin girl, she was always teasing us, and even during classes she would say, "Jap, Jap," and the teacher says, "So-and-so, you're not supposed to say that. They're Japanese." "No, no, they're a 'Jap' yet." And that's the way it was going.

TI: So I'm curious, when this one girl who did that, on the playground did anyone just tell her, "Hey, don't do that," or...

JM: Just, I don't know, but still, at the playground we would all get together. She didn't call me 'Jap' during that time. It's just some kind of a conversation, something like that, then she'll say, "Jap, Jap, Jap." And the principal overheard that, too, and he came up and says, "No, you're not supposed to say 'Jap.' They're all Japanese."

[Interruption]

Okay, so let me ask that question again. This girl would use the term Jap and, and tell me again, so how did that make you feel when she used that term, Jap?

JM: To me inside, it was just mumbling in here, but I couldn't say nothing either because only a few Japanese and thing like that, but she was one of the girls that was kind of naughty, teased everybody and thing like that too, so...

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: So we talked a little bit about school, how about Japanese school? Did you ever have to go to Japanese school?

JM: Just before we came to America, yeah, it was the following, year before that we had this Japanese lady, her name was, they were, I mean, she was a neighbor to us and she said that we're gonna, "You people are gonna start learning Japanese." And so we were kind of excited, but we had to go to the Hood River town where the Japanese town hall is and then study over there. It was once a month, I think, we used to go there.

TI: And you said this was about a year before you went to Japan, so you're about, what, ten years old?

JM: Yeah. Yeah, something like that.

TI: Okay, so that's... and who was taking Japanese classes with you? Was it just your family, or was it --

JM: No, we had a few Japanese people, two friends, and we had some hakujin friends, a German friend. She says, "You know, it sounds interesting," so she start learning Japanese, too. In fact, she was way ahead of me.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So a German friend, so she's about your same age?

JM: Yeah, we're the same class, too.

TI: And she just wanted to take Japanese?

JM: Japanese, and she was my girlfriend. [Laughs]

TI: So during that time she was kind of your, your girlfriend, and was that why she wanted to take the class, do you think? Because she wanted to be...

JM: No, I think it was, I don't know. I can't give you an answer on that, but they used to have a gas station by the highway, so they, the parents were German, so we got along real good with them.

TI: Now, how did your parents feel about, about, or did they know that you had, the two of you liked each other? Did they say anything about that?

JM: I don't think my parents even thought about that yet, yeah, 'cause we were just young and get together, and only time they would come to my house and everything is if we have some kind of a gathering, but other than that it wasn't... at school, of course, you meet 'em all the time, too, so...

SF: And the Japanese school was, like, one whole day on Saturday?

JM: Yeah, it's around three hours. Yeah.

SF: So your parents would drive you?

JM: Yeah, and then they would kind of roam around Hood River until we're finished and, 'cause that's where we had our Japanese movies, too, over there.

TI: So how about church? Did you go to church?

JM: No, my, we were Buddhist that time.

TI: Okay.

JM: Strictly a Buddhist.

TI: And you mentioned Japanese movies, I'm curious about, like, Japanese or community events, like movies and other things where people got together. Can you describe some...

JM: It wasn't all that, during that time it was all Japan and China fighting each other. It was war movie. Yeah, war movie.

TI: And did you go to see these, too?

JM: Yeah, I would go out, 'cause I liked those kind of movies.

TI: So what was the, so explain, describe what that was like. So how many people were there and what was the reaction of the audience?

JM: Maybe sometimes there would be fifteen, twenty people and they were, since we were all Japanese, they were rooting for Japan than the Chinese people, but we didn't have no grudge against the Chinese and the Japanese either, just a movie.

SF: So these movies were Japanese documentaries on the war?

JM: Yeah.

SF: So they were just showing Japan fighting China?

JM: Yeah, China and everything like that. And then where, if they take the village, you know, you'll, the Japanese soldiers would kill the civilians and everything like that, too. It was tough.

TI: Oh, so they would show that in these movies, too?

JM: Oh, yeah.

TI: Interesting. Were there ever organized efforts to raise money or anything for the Japanese or Japanese army in Hood River?

JM: Not that I know of. Not that I know of, I don't think. Maybe my parents and elderly people might've, but we, I haven't heard nothing about that.

SF: So they never made those toiletry and candy and packages for the Japanese war, soldiers?

JM: No, no, we didn't do that.

SF: Never did.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: How about some other community events, like picnics? Did you have anything like that?

JM: Oh yeah, we had picnics every year, and Christmas was more individual, but then some, if there was some kind of a celebration, we'd go to a big park and they all bring their own lunch and everything and get together, play games and everything like that, too.

TI: In terms of sort of community leaders, I think you mentioned the Yasui family.

JM: The Yasuis.

TI: So were they pretty much the, one of the strong community...

JM: Yes, yes.

TI: And what about some other families that were really strong in Hood River?

JM: Hood River, let's see, I think it was the Okamura family. His, they had a big land and they, they were the ones, too, that was helping us, if we couldn't bring it with our truck they would take out their truck and take it to the market and everything. And Fred Okamura was my best friend over there because we used to play baseball and football all together. He was two grades ahead of me, but got together and that was it.

TI: And another family you mentioned was the Wakamatsus.

JM: Wakamatsu, yes, he's still roaming around America, too. [Laughs] The Wakamatsu family was, they were helping my dad and them, too. I think they were the first Japanese that was helping our family. And then we had a Filipino family over there, too, and there was another Filipino, there was, I think, two Filipino families and the Wakamatsus that were all helping us in the farm.

TI: So I just have to ask this question. It's kind of a tangent, but were there any good baseball players in the Wakamatsu family?

JM: The only one I knew was -- of course, I don't know if Johnny was still alive -- boxing. When he, we were kids, "Come on, I'll show you guys how to box." He was nothing but boxing, teach everybody boxing.

TI: And that was Johnny?

JM: Johnny. Yeah, that's the second, so James, Johnny -- Eichi, James, yeah, I think he's the second.

TI: And the reason I mention is I'm from Seattle, so Don Wakamatsu is the manager of the Seattle Mariners.

JM: Don Wakamatsu, yes.

TI: So I was just curious about that. [Laughs]

JM: And their, one of the sisters in Hood River, yeah, she's eighty, eighty-nine years old now.

TI: It's a good story. So any other memories from Hood River, like an event or story that, that you can remember fondly about Hood River?

JM: No, not that I know of.

TI: How about like fishing? Did you ever do anything around the Columbia River?

JM: Oh yeah, fishing is, even when we were working, too, all we used to do is get a sewing machine thread, put a hook on it and get a rock on the front, throw it in the river, and maybe two, three hours, go down, we'd bring up the fish and everything, 'cause they were catching sturgeons, too, on Columbia River that time. That was before the Bonneville Dam was built.

TI: And so, sturgeons can get really large.

JM: Oh yeah, they can get big. I mean, we had one, two, three fish ponds over there at the gas station, and they had sturgeons and the people that buy gas, they would come out and look at the sturgeons and everything.

TI: Now, would you bring 'em home and eat the fish?

JM: No. I have never eaten those kind. I, in fact, up until now I haven't eaten sturgeon. It reminds me of shark.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So let's move on to a little bit later when the family decides to go to Japan. So can you tell me about that in terms of why your family went to Japan?

JM: Well, the only reason we went back to Japan is my uncle and my mother, they're brother and sister and he says, "You never know what's gonna happen, so why don't you people take a vacation on Christmas and come over to Japan?" because they know that Christmas holiday, American people don't go to school or anything like that, so one -- nineteen thirty, was it seven or was it, I forget, '38? -- we asked the principal that, we want to go to Japan and meet our uncles over there and so we're gonna take off three weeks. And the principal says, "Oh, that's very good," says, "Yeah, you better enjoy and go, go to Japan, see your families."

TI: So this was just gonna be a Christmas vacation, three weeks?

JM: Yeah, Christmas vacation, three weeks, we're gonna come back again.

TI: And this was the whole family, so all six kids and the mother and father?

JM: Yeah, but when we went to Japan my mother and two sisters and the youngest kid, we, they went home on a different boat and then we went on the second boat that was leaving for Japan. It was Fumi, Fred, and myself, we went on the second boat that carries their lumber. You know that Japan has to buy lumber and everything? So...

TI: And you went with your father, then, with the second trip?

JM: No, my father was still, we still were farming, so that's when the Wakamatsu family and the Filipino family, they were, and the German family, they were helping my father.

TI: Okay, so let me make sure I understand this, so your mom went with Emiko and Sadako and Kiyoshi.

JM: Yeah, Kiyoshi.

TI: So the four of them went first, and then Fumiko, you, and Fred went on --

JM: Afterwards, yeah.

TI: And your father was back at the farm.

JM: Yeah, yeah, still working at the farm.

TI: So, so it's three, I mean, Fumiko's not that old either, so you're pretty young.

JM: She's a year...

TI: She's about thirteen, twelve, thirteen years old?

JM: Oh, Fumi? Yeah.

TI: Yeah, so it's the three of you, so tell me about the boat ride across. I mean, what was that like?

JM: Well, it's the first time I ever rode on a boat like that, but my dad says, "You guys might get lonesome," because my mother and other guys, sisters, they were back in Japan, so he bought us big orange, case of oranges, said, "If you guys get hungry and everything be sure to eat that." But the captain of the ship too knew that it was just the three of us, so we all kind of got together and he welcomed us in his captain room and everything, kind of spoke half Japanese, half English to them and got, went to Japan, yeah. We had a nice time, though. But the weather was rough. It took us three, three and a half weeks to reach Japan that time. 'Cause the captain, too, he was getting seasick.

TI: That must've been really rough then.

JM: Oh, it was rough.

TI: Any other memories on that, so this wasn't a passenger ship, you said?

JM: No, it was a freighter.

TI: It was a freighter.

JM: Carrying lumber too that time.

TI: And so were there, besides you, any other passengers?

JM: No, no, just us. That's all.

TI: Wow, so it really was kind of lonely then.

JM: Yeah, lonely, but we were treated very good. Even the captain and all the sailors and everything, they treated us real good, 'cause we were the only kids on the boat.

TI: So how did you pass the time? I mean, three and a half weeks...

JM: Well, we'd get out and play on the deck and go inside, and captain would say, "Hey, come in our room," and invite us and things.

TI: And you had your own little stateroom or little room that the three of you stayed in?

JM: Well, it was a big room, fairly big room. Yeah.

SF: How did your dad arrange for you to get onto this freighter, since it was not a regular passenger ship?

JM: I don't know. I guess they went through the American consulate or something like that, because, well, later on too, but my dad too, he caught the last Japanese boat that was leaving Portland and he caught the boat right away. Because when I got sick I, we couldn't go back to Japan no more, so my mother says, "Hey, better have Papa come home and, because we can't go back," so my dad came home on the last boat that was ready to leave. He caught it two days earlier.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So let's talk about that a little bit more. So, so Christmas break you go to Japan, the three of you, so the trip itself took, you said two and half, three and a half weeks?

JM: Yeah, three and a half. We all, it was --

TI: A long trip. So tell me, you're, you're finally at, to Japan, where did you land in Japan?

JM: Oh, land, we reached Yokohama.

TI: And what were some of your first impressions of Japan when you first got there?

JM: Well, since we seen land and we could walk we were so happy that we were there.

TI: Was your mother and sisters...

JM: Yeah, they all were at the port to pick us up and everything.

TI: So here you had spent all your time in America, sort of Hood River, and now you were in a different country, what did you think of Japan when you saw it?

JM: Well, I thought was a nice country, but as I, the longer I stayed, I got, they kind of looked up on us all the time because we were American people with different clothes and everything on, so they, I was treated as a Korean. They said, "Oh, look at that Korean guy," and everything. And I went to school, how many years, just about six months, with long hair, American clothes and leather shoes and everything too.

TI: So let's, let's kind of walk into that a little bit more. So you're there first on vacation. I guess the question is, but then you end up staying there, what happened? Why did you stay in Japan?

JM: Because I got sick. The time that we had to come home I was in the hospital yet.

TI: And what happened, what kind of sickness?

JM: The doctor says it's just different food and water and things like that, so, but it took me close to two weeks in the hospital.

TI: Now, when you were in the hospital, so did the whole family stay in Japan, or did some people go back?

JM: No, no, they stayed at my uncle's place.

TI: And this is when, you said your mother mailed to your father telling him to come.

JM: Yeah, they sent a telegram saying, "Come home right away."

TI: And that's when he caught the ship in Portland and came.

JM: In Portland, yeah.

TI: What did your father do with the farm when he...

JM: Well, when we called our father back, this Wakamatsu family and this Filipino family and the German family, they, of course they didn't know a war's gonna break out, but they said, "Yeah, go back and see your family, but don't worry. We'll look after the farm." So that's what my dad did. He said, "Well, I'll leave everything up to you people," and then he caught the last boat. So, and then soon as the war broke out, they said from out of nowhere they come, come to the farm, take whatever they wanted to.

TI: And I'm sorry, who, who came to farm and took things?

JM: People around us. I mean, they bring, took the horses -- well, that time we had horses, no tractor at all -- and all those tools and everything. They just took it. And the Wakamatsu family too, since the war broke out they couldn't say nothing, because if they did, well, they'll get killed.

TI: So people knew that the family was in Japan, no one was at the farm, so people just came and took it.

JM: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And then we had this one Japanese, he was a foreman for the Pacific Railroad, he was a foreman, too, and him too, he had to go back, too, because he was a Japanese.

TI: Had to go back where, to Japan?

JM: Japan, yeah.

SF: How did you find out about, how did, what happened to the farm and all that?

JM: It was leased through the Yasuis, so after that we don't know what has happened, and then we wanted to come back here, but my father and mother said, "Well, we're gettin' old," so they want to stay close to the, everybody's family.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Okay. So let's go back to you, so you're in the hospital with a sickness. You said you were there for about three weeks?

JM: Yeah.

TI: And then you come out.

JM: Yeah.

TI: At this point, so you're well now, what did the family decide to do next?

JM: Well, the American consulate says there's gonna be no boat going to America, so my uncle says, "You people can't go back to America no more, so you got to stay here and study Japanese, so, and school right away," which, I was, what, twelve, thirteen, I went in the first grade. [Laughs]

TI: Okay, so this is where you talk about your, your hair is longer, your clothes were different --

JM: Oh yeah, different.

TI: -- and the kids, sounds like they teased you.

JM: Oh, they'd tease us, 'cause red, if I had a red sweater on, "Oh, look at that stupid guy there, he's wearing a woman's, girl clothes," and everything like that.

TI: And so, so you said even though you're much older, like twelve or thirteen, you start at first grade?

JM: First grade.

TI: So these are five, six year old...

JM: Yes. Yes, that's why if we go somewhere or something, all the small children, here you see a big head popped up, and that's, too, when they'll start lookin' at -- well, any Japanese people, schoolkids, if they see somethin' like that they start teasing. "Look at that tall guy."

[Off camera speaking]

JM: Yeah, yeah.

TI: So how did, how did you, during this time, feel? I mean, here, just weeks before you had told the principal you're only going to be gone for a short time and now all of a sudden you're living in Japan going to Japanese school? What was going through your mind then? Do you recall how you felt about this?

JM: Well, my mother says, "No, we got to start learning Japanese," so I went to school during the daytime and during the evening we had a private teacher coming every night to study Japanese. And then my cousin too, he was going to real top Japanese school, and every time he'd come home, too, he'd help us 'cause he spoke a little English, 'cause in school I guess they still understood a lot of English.

SF: Do you recall how you felt in --

JM: Well, it's really hard to explain. I mean, everywhere we'd go we line up and go in here and then all the Japanese people just walkin' on the street stop and look, stop and look because... yeah. [Laughs]

TI: And how was it like for your older sisters? What were they doing?

JM: No, my sisters, they were going to high school already in Japan. It was called, it was a missionary lady, she had a school in Japan there, so they were okay. But when the war broke out, the Japanese military told them they had to go back to America.

TI: The missionaries?

JM: Yeah, the missionaries.

TI: Okay, so your sisters, older, they went to a high school where everything was done in English, so they were fine, but when the war broke out, then, then they...

JM: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay. And then, so you were teased by the kids.

JM: Kids.

TI: How about the teachers? How did they treat you?

JM: Well the teachers, they would say, "Don't tease. These people are from America and they can't speak Japanese, so they're here to study Japanese." And finally, as we were going every day to school, I guess they got used to us.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: And so how long did it take you to kind of progress grades? You started off at first grade.

JM: First grade, first grade, we stayed in there two months just to kind of get the feeling, and then every two months they would skip me until I reached the sixth grade. And then from there on I went regular.

TI: Okay. And do you recall how long you were in Japan before the war started? Was it, yeah, how long?

JM: Oh, let's see, before the war started, I was thirteen when the war broke out. Maybe, what...

TI: Was it, like, one school year or two?

JM: No, no, no, more than that. Yeah, more than that.

TI: So like a couple of school years?

JM: Yeah. It was three school years, I think.

TI: Three school years, okay, before the war started. And, say, right before the war started, so you'd been in school for two, three, three years, did you still think that you were different, that you were American or Japanese? Did you think about those things?

JM: Yes, I did. At school we had this one Korean boy. He was little bit taller than me, but he, he wanted to come to America, I guess, ever since he was small, so he called me one day and says, "Hey, write my name in English," so he, then I wrote everybody's name in English and everything. Everybody start looking at us, but that was it. And we didn't speak, but the teacher found out that I was writing English and this woman teacher, boy, she got after him and me because she thought that I was teaching those people English, but it was just the name.

TI: And why would you get in trouble for teaching English? Why would, why...

JM: Well, that's, as soon as the war broke out there was no more English class in Japan. They had no English class at all. My wife too, she was takin' English, but no more.

TI: But then before the war...

JM: They had English class, yes.

TI: Okay, but, and I'm curious, how much information was there about America? Like did they have information in their, like social studies classes or things like that, in terms of America and what that, did they learn about, did students learn about America?

JM: I guess I was still young, so in my case I didn't have that, but I think my sisters, they were going to high school, they had those kind of things.

TI: But you were learning Japanese history and...

JM: Yeah. Yeah, well I had to. Boy, that Japanese history never got in my head. Now it's coming to me. I remember all those stuff, but it was terrible.

SF: At that time, do you remember if you wanted to really be a Japanese, or did you resist?

JM: I didn't, I didn't even think about being Japanese or American 'cause I figured I'm still an American over there, so I had a dual citizen over there, 'cause when we, we were gonna stay there, my wife had to -- not my wife -- my mother had to go to city hall and register all of us. But when they registered us, our name was written in red ink, saying that "these are not Japanese. They're gaijin. They're American people."

TI: That's interesting, so it was actually a different color, so they quickly tell...

JM: Yeah, so they could quickly tell, soon as they open up, see the Matsuda, well no, this family here, they're all American people.

TI: And during this time, what kind of work did your mother and father do?

JM: We still had a farm all that time.

TI: Okay, so they're farming.

JM: Yeah, farming. Raising vegetables.

TI: And so during this time, this is, again, before the war, were the Wakamatsus and these other people watching the farm at Hood River, or had that, did something happen to that during this time?

JM: Well, the place where we were farming, they were watching that over there, but as soon as the war broke out, I guess, when people start coming and taking the tools, plows and desk and everything like that, and the car. Well they couldn't say nothing 'cause if they did they were afraid that they'll get killed.

TI: Okay. So now, in Japan before the war, any other memories? If you thought about something that you think back with fond memories, sort of before the war in Japan, what would come to mind?

JM: I wish I never went back to Japan. That was the only thing, because my Japanese was so poor and you see how the, even going to school, the higher class people would always tease you and make you do everything, so it was just like a military even if you were going to a high school in Japan.

TI: So even you were there for some time now, you still thought about you wish you could be in America?

JM: Yeah.

TI: And how about your sisters? Did they ever talk about that?

JM: They said, "Yeah, let's go back to America," but I thought, could we go back now? "Oh, maybe Japan would win and then we could go back, and if we go back," says, "We're gonna, first thing we're gonna do is go to Portland and see our friends." That was what we were always thinkin' about. Until I start going to high school, then I had to take, during high school too, I had to take military training and everything like everybody else.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So let's, let's move to December 8, 1941, when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Do you remember that day?

JM: Yeah. It was December 8th. Over here it was the 7th?

TI: Yeah.

JM: Yeah, but then, that time I was raised like a kid and my dad too, he says, "The Japanese are stupid." And I said, "Why?" you know, in Japanese. He says, "Japan's a small country. They can't beat America. Look how big America is." And so he says, "Nihonjin wa bakatare." [Laughs]

TI: And what did you think when you heard --

JM: Me too, I, of course I said, yeah, they are stupid. I mean, of all the stuff they, America has and Japan is just a small country. I says, if it was a, if I myself thought if it was a short term of war maybe Japan would've won, but if they keep a long term, I says, my dad, too, says, "No, Japan's gonna lose because there'll be no fuel or nothing."

TI: And how about your mother? Did she have anything to say?

JM: No, no, she says, too, that Japan, well that time, "Bakatare." [Laughs] 'Cause they were here in America and they had everything, whatever they wanted.

TI: So describe what it was like when you went to school. What was school like after war had started?

JM: I was Japan here, so...

TI: Yeah, so in Japan.

JM: In Japan?

TI: Yeah.

JM: They wouldn't say nothing to me. The FBIs were really surrounding us that time.

TI: I'm sorry, the FBI?

JM: The Japanese FBI, because they thought we were spies. So even during the daytime or nighttime, they would come in the house without even knocking. They'll just open the door and say, "How are you guys doing?" and things like that, too. When we were having dinner they'll do that. And one day, I didn't go to school, but the FBI says, "Hey, Matsuda-san," he said, "How was school today?" I said, "Oh, it was very good." He says, "Nope, you didn't go to school. You played hooky, 'cause you were at the coast swimming with the other friends." They caught me right there.

TI: Wow, so they were watching you pretty closely.

JM: Oh, they were watching us all the time.

TI: And why do you think so?

JM: They thought we were spies, 'cause in that city there, I think we were the only American-born people there, and so after that now the policemen got pretty strict, too, so if we had to go out of town, like Sunnyvale and Mountain View, we had to report to the police station, saying that we're going so-and-so, we're going so-and-so, to each place.

TI: Now, when you're at school were you ever teased for growing up in America? Did they call you Yankee or anything like that?

JM: No. Well yeah, they called me Yankee, I mean, "yanki," they'll say. They called me that, but other than that, no. Because what happened is high school there was these guys that, they were pretty good Japanese people, but they start teasing and one day, they were practicing, learning how to blow the bugle and everything and I happened to walk by, and I kind of laughed at them the way they were doing that and this one guy comes up to me and in Japanese he says, "What's the matter with you?" 'Cause he know I was a foreigner, and then he took out this, it's called tsuba, a kendo thing, you know that tsuba in there? He had that in his pocket. He took it out and start raising a hand, so I did my little boxing, I says, "Come on." Soon as he seen me do that he quit. He knew that that was the only way. [Laughs]

TI: So during this time, you mentioned your sisters, so their school, the missionaries had to go back to the United States, so what did your sisters do after the war started?

JM: After the war, just go to Japanese high school, that's all. Until they graduated.

TI: And do you recall any stories that they told about what it was like for them?

JM: No. Because it was mostly English until the war broke out, I mean because Mrs. Lancaster was the principal of the school that time. But that school, they reopened again after the war. It's still standing there.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: So tell me about the changes. Now that war has started, at school, at home, the work, what changes happened in people's lives in Japan?

JM: People's lives, okay. Like in my case too, after you graduate high school you have to volunteer in the military. They make you volunteer unless you're a handicap, so when I graduated, too, I had to volunteer and I figured that I won't pass, but when I took the test I passed the eleventh, yeah, I was the eleventh people that passed, took the test. But my uncle then, they were very proud because even though I was born in America I passed the test, and then after I passed the test, "Do you want to go to the navy or where?" I says air force, and then they told me air force is a tough place and I says, "I don't care. I'm gonna go to the air force." So I, that's when I went into the --

TI: But so, but why air force? Why'd you decide air force?

JM: To be, that time, the, they were all good looking people dressed up real nice, and if you walk in town, I mean, all the girls would come after you, to be honest with you. [Laughs]

TI: So they were the, kind of the more glamorous...

JM: Glamorous and, yeah, thing like that and so...

TI: Now, did you have any interest or experience in flying?

JM: Before I went, volunteered I had three months' training on a glider, going to school, the high school. That's why when I had glider training in the service, they were all surprised how I flew the glider and everything.

TI: So how did you get gliding, or glider training?

JM: They made you -- well, it was a volunteer, whoever wanted to take three months' training on a glider, that they could go three months, and I wanted to fly, too, so I just took the three months' training. So it was good that time, and then the machinery, too, 'cause I was driving an old Model T Ford when I was eight years old in the field, so all the machines and everything was kind of, kind of coming into my head.

TI: So this is all the way back at Hood River, where you drove on the farm?

JM: Farm, yeah. My mother would crank the car for me and then start it up and just bring the vegetables to the packing shed, from the field to the packing shed and everything.

TI: So at the time that you joined the military you already had all this experience, driving as well as glider.

JM: Oh yeah, I had driving, yeah. But they were surprised and one day this fellow, I was sittin' down during a lunch hour and he comes to me, he was a, our new instructor and he comes to me and says, "Hey, how come you do very good in everything, all the trainings?" And he says, "Where'd you learn all that?" So when he asked me that I says, "Well, I was born in America." Then he pops up and says, "I got a relative in America, too," so we got together, real good close friends.

TI: That's interesting. I just want to kind of establish a date about when you entered the army.

JM: The navy.

TI: The navy. I'm sorry, the navy, and I have around April 1943?

JM: Forty, well I stayed there two and a half years, in the, so yeah I'd be...

TI: Yeah, so about April '43.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So you were, you were, like, around sixteen years old?

JM: Yeah, I was seventeen.

TI: Seventeen years old. So you're, and that was a typical age in terms of starting?

JM: Yeah.

TI: So tell me first about your initial training. So you're now in, I guess you're in the navy, but, but sort of targeted for the air force?

JM: Well, that was the navy air force I was in

TI: Okay, the navy air force. So tell me about your training. What happened?

JM: Number one, I had problem of the language, the way they speak, like from up, well on the Kyushu island I would understand a lot of Japanese, but if they come from different places the dialogue and everything was a little bit different. And, but there was one fellow that we go together and he would always help me out. "He's saying this. He's saying that." So I would do whatever he tells me. And it took me around four months before I got used to that kind of language and take training, but during the training I was, I loved it. No matter what they said, I just enjoyed everything.'

TI: So tell me, what are some of the activities in your training?

JM: At first, before, they'll give you a rifle, take it apart and put it back together in so many minutes and thing like that. And then from there on they'll gradually kind of work up, and then before you start takin' classes for flying you got to take another exam, too, to go through that, and I passed that, too, right away. And if you flunked you won't be able to fly a plane. You'd be the mechanic part, so you have one grade down. But I passed that, too, and everything.

TI: At the, at the pilot level, did they have different levels there, too? I mean, some were kamikaze, but were others, like, trained to be fighter pilots in terms of --

JM: Oh yeah, yeah. There was a lot of pilots there, yes. Well, the kamikaze pilot is when America went to the Philippines and that's where this, that general that, written in Japanese, he taught, he's the one that teach the kamikaze pilot, so that was a time, so you hit, fly that Zero and then go down with the plane, with a two hundred fifty pound bomb.

TI: But was that, like, a special group within the pilots or did all pilots...

JM: All the pilots that passed the training, yeah. And in my case, too, I got trained like that, but we didn't have enough planes, and even if we did have the planes, no gas and everything like that. It was tough. So after that we, they start training us human bomb. We carry a bomb, big bomb like that and if you see the enemy come with a tank you have to go under there yourself and blow up the tank.

TI: How would you carry the bomb? What, what was...

JM: Well, if you're hiding with, if the tank is rolling, if they see you, you're on the side and you got, it's around this long, and soon as they go by you, you got to go under there and put that bomb under the tractor, the thing there, blow up that, what do you call that?

SF: The tread?

JM: Tread, yeah.

TI: And so it was just like a, just a regular bomb that you would just carry?

JM: Yeah, something like that. And it's around this long, so you carry it like this.

TI: So they were training the pilots this also, so your group?

JM: Yeah.

TI: Okay. So what were you thinking when you're, they were training you?

JM: Well, that time, to me, I wasn't thinking of nothing else because as I was leaving, the train pulling out, my mother, she come running to me and as the train is moving she said, "Jimmie, Jimmie, Jimmie," and she says, "I don't want you to come back alive." She says, "If you're gonna go," says, "you got to fight for Japan, so I want your ashes to be at the Yasukuni Jinja. And you speak English, but," says, "no, never be a POW either, and if you get hurt or something, can't, you got to suicide, take suicide." That was the last word I heard from my mother.

SF: How did you feel about that when you, when she...

JM: Well, I was still seventeen, eighteen, something like that, I figured it's for the country, 'cause we all looked upon the Hirohito that time.

SF: Did the rest of your unit know that you were an American?

JM: No, not, hardly anybody knew.

SF: And it was just in your interest not to tell them?

JM: Well, I didn't even mention it. Yeah, just one, my instructor, he's the only one that knew it. And then as we were going to Kagoshima, 'cause from Kagoshima we had to catch a boat and go to Okinawa, and that was the real suicide thing because there's no plane at all, so when we were gettin' ready to go there I said, well, this could be the end of us and everything, so we got, in Fukuoka Air Base we all got together and they were gonna be ready to pull out on the train, commander comes out and says, "Does anybody in this group speak English or understand English?" And this guy behind me, says, he pointed at me and says, "He's American-born." So he, so then he comes to me and says, "Do you speak English?" I told him yes. "Okay, you stay here with us, but the rest, they got to go."

TI: Now, if your, if that person didn't point you out, would you have said anything?

JM: Yeah, I would've said something, too, that I'm, I could, I speak English. I would've said that, too, myself, but he's the one that went like that to me.

TI: Okay. I want to backtrack a little bit. I want to talk about your training, your flight training. So if they didn't have much gasoline and things like that, how did they train you to be a pilot?

JM: Training pilot, you have a few gas. It's not a full tank, but just to fly, take off and then land and do some diving practice and thing like that, but that's all. I mean, you couldn't, you couldn't maneuver around too much.

TI: And do you recall, maybe, how many flight hours you had?

JM: I've had, how many flight hours? I think it was twenty-some hours I had flight hours, so I knew, and I, if I did have a plane, that I would be a goner, too.

TI: But enough to, to be able to fly, to take off, land and...

JM: No. Only one way ticket.

TI: But they, at least they taught you how to land. Did they teach you how to land?

JM: Oh yeah, oh yeah. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] I was gonna say... okay.

SF: So did you train with the zero or...

JM: Yeah, yeah, zero. But it was a two-seater. The instructor would sit behind, behind me and I would sit in the front, and then from there...

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Earlier you were talking about the pilots, the kamikaze pilots, when they would go into town people would kind of look up to them. So how was that for you? When you were in your uniform and would walk around, would people notice you?

JM: Oh yeah, they would notice right away, and we were treated like a king. I mean, we were treated, 'cause they, they figured the kamikaze pilots, they'll, once they get in the plane or something they'll never come back alive, so we had, I mean, whatever we wanted. We had everything, from whisky, sake, tobacco, chocolate or anything, we had all those treatments and they were all free.

TI: So describe how that would happen. So say you went into a, like a restaurant or something?

JM: No, no, in the mess hall, they have, if you wanted you can go there and...

TI: Okay, so they got, you got special provisions. They had special provisions for the pilots.

JM: Yeah. That's why I started smokin' when I was sixteen.

TI: How about if you went into the town or something, to, like the movie theater or anything like that, did you ever do that?

JM: Oh yeah.

TI: And would you get special treatment in town?

JM: Yeah, yeah. They all look upon you and then they won't charge us for a ticket. They won't charge us for a ticket 'cause they know that these people here, once, if they have a plane, that they won't come back.

TI: And if you went into a restaurant, how would they treat you?

JM: Oh, very good. I mean, restaurant, anywhere we went we was treated real good. Some elderly ladies would, out in the country, if we're walking, they, they'll bow to us and everything, saying, "Thank you very much for fighting for the country."

TI: And earlier you mentioned, how about girls? How did the girls treat you?

JM: Oh yeah, they treated us real good. They're all high school girls, but they treated, they wanted to walk with the, our uniform, take pictures and everything.

TI: And so that, that probably felt pretty good, to get their attention.

JM: Yeah. That time, yeah.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Jimmie, earlier you told a story of your mother telling you, essentially, "Don't come back alive." And she mentioned the, the Yasukuni Shrine.

JM: Shrine, that's where all the military people, the ashes go there.

TI: Have you ever visited, did you ever visit that, the shrine?

JM: That's one place I have never visited, and I didn't care afterwards.

TI: Oh, so did you intentionally never want to go there, or weren't you ever curious just to go...

JM: Well, I wanted to see the place, but just that I didn't even...

TI: Okay. But then after you start training, did you ever go back and visit your parents at all? Did you ever talk to them during training?

JM: Yeah, during training I'd come back on the weekend or something like that, 'cause the place where I was at, it was a place called Fukuoka and it's close to where my parents are living. But my real training was up in North, at the real place where they have the military, it's strictly a military base and nobody could go in or out or anything like that, too.

TI: But during the time you visit your parents during training, did you ever have any more conversations with them about your training and what you're doing?

JM: No, the first thing my mother would ask is, "Did you understand all these Japanese and everything? 'Cause," she says," 'cause if not, don't hesitate, just tell 'em that you don't know." But she sent me a Japanese dictionary right away, so I carried that around quite a bit, too.

SF: Did your dad have any reaction to... I mean, your mom was giving you all these instructions of, what did your dad think?

JM: Well, he thought it was normal, since we were gonna be in Japan for a while and everything, but as soon as the war broke out my dad just changed his mind, says, "The Japanese are bakatare." That's the first thing he said.

TI: Did he ever feel bad that his son was in fighting? I mean, if he thinks the war was kind of stupid, to have his oldest son training to be a kamikaze pilot, did he ever talk to you about that?

JM: He was proud that somebody in the family is going as a kamikaze pilot, so he was, no, he was proud. He didn't mention himself, but he was very proud. That's why, in front of our house too, in Japan, when you get drafted and everything they have all these flags, navy flags and everything, and we had, the whole house around us was all that.

TI: Did the family get any kind of special treatment because you were training to be a kamikaze?

JM : No, no.

TI: Okay. Did you ever find out, so you told the story that, how your unit was going to go down to Kagoshima...

JM: Kagoshima.

TI: Kagoshima, and then take the boat to Okinawa.

JM: Yeah.

TI: Did you ever find out what happened to your unit, the men you trained with?

JM: The men I trained with, when they left, that was the last I ever seen. They caught the, they boarded the train and that was the last, 'cause I stayed in the camp. So I haven't heard from them at all, so it could be that when they were going they could've been, you know, hit by the American plane, 'cause the planes were comin' in real fast everywhere or if they caught the boat they'd be sunk anyway, instead of reaching Okinawa, they'll be sunk before they even went to Okinawa. Because the carrier in the Philippines, I mean, that was, that was the main thing we had to do was sink that carrier.

SF: What did you think about who was gonna win the war at that point?

JM: I thought about, no, Japan, I mean America's gonna win the war. I figured that myself. I didn't say it to everybody, but you can realize Japan and America and then, like Japan, you got all the oil and everything, materials and everything, so to me, I thought that Japan was kind of stupid, but what could I say, living over there?

TI: During your training, was there any kind of training or discussions about preparing you for death?

JM: No. That, that... no. Uh-uh.

TI: So it's just expected of you, you would just carry out your...

JM: Yeah, if you flew, if you got on that plane, that you won't think about nothing, all you got to do just smile to everybody, salute and take off, and that take off thing would never, the plane would never come back. Because I have a, the, what you call it, the military kamikaze pilot thing, I got the DVD. I got that and when you see that, too, it's just same way as we were trained, and they would never come back. Except three people came back. It was on the way going that they, the plane had engine problems so they had to land somewhere, or either run out of gas and thing like, I think three people's the only person that came back that time.

SF: So did, was the, did people talk about being, if you go to Yasukuni, that your spirit will live on for the emperor?

JM: Yeah.

SF: How did that go?

JM: Well, that's, that's why my mother says, "Never come back alive," because, and so she, she, too, says if I was living, got hurt and living, says, "You're not gonna be at the shrine, you know. The ashes won't be at the shrine if you're half," saying, "So never give up on anything. Be sure that when you do your duties, do what you're supposed to do. I don't want you to come back." Boy, that was really a shock to me, though. But during the war, I guess, any country, the parents would say something like that.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: During training, were ever there any stories of some of the pilots deciding not to go forward or maybe taking another job or another role?

JM: If they did there was a special jail for those people. They were treated real bad. And the jail is just got a few window, it's dark outside, you can't go outside every time whenever you want to. It was a special thing, the, those coward people. There was a few people in there like that.

TI: And so there were some pilots who decided not to...

JM: Not to, yeah. But after the war they were happy 'cause they got free. Soon as the war was over, I mean, that's it, no more military or nothing.

TI: But I'm guessing they were, amongst the other pilots they were looked down upon?

JM: Yeah. Oh yeah, they, that time, yeah.

SF: When you were training for this, did, did you ever think about, well, maybe these Americans might be some kids from your school on that, might be on the destroyer or the battleship or the carrier?

JM: I never did think about that, but the only thing I was thinkin' is when the Americans come and then, where we stayed we had a big American POW camp and even that time, too, you could see 'em, if they die they bring 'em to the cremation place, but I was thinkin', gee, it's a wonder that the Americans, I wonder if they're gonna kill those people, too? Of course, they do when the bomb drops, but I just couldn't understand that part, their being American and they know the POW because it says POW on it, but they'll drop the bomb and --

TI: Oh, so the American bombers would still, when they dropped bombs would hit the POW camp also?

JM: Yeah, drop, yeah, they get killed, too. That's why in Nagasaki, too, I guess nobody came out alive, the POWs.

TI: Oh, so there's a POW camp there also?

JM: Yeah, there was a POW camp there also, too.

TI: Wow, so that, so Steve, do you have any other questions about the training or about kamikazes, kamikazes?

SF: I think I'm good.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: So I'm gonna now catch up. You mentioned how, so your unit went off, you never heard from them again.

JM: Never heard from them again.

TI: But you were held back as a translator.

JM: Yeah.

TI: So let's talk about that. Let's begin it back there, so what kind of translation did you do?

JM: All the message that was comin' in in English I had to translate. And let's see, how long did I translate? Maybe two weeks or something like, and that's all, but I didn't have to do it every day, just when they start flying over, 'cause where our air base was and there was another Japanese air base close to where we were, so the Americans would try and go over there, too, and drop bombs over there. And that's where my wife and them were staying, in the country part.

TI: And when, so it wasn't that long, a couple weeks, who else was doing translation with you?

JM: I was the only one in that unit.

TI: Okay.

JM: I was the only one.

TI: So you were kind of a unique, rare person.

JM: Yeah, so I started gettin' pretty popular there.

TI: How so? Why were you popular?

JM: Well, 'cause all the officers and high ranking people, they'd call me and I'd go out there, and even though the war was over, a lot of people disobeyed these officers, but I just did my duties, whatever I could. And because when the war was over lot of people start goin' home theirselves. There's no more military there, so they went home and everything, but I stayed until they told me, "You can go home," and I got, before I went home I had a three month paycheck, anyway, to get, but only sixty dollars for three months. [Laughs]

SF: So before the war ended, what kind of documents did you translate?

JM: Just where they were gonna fly and "we're gonna go there." I don't know how the military army, they had some kind of a code, too, so it's that, the one will come in separate and then later on they'll come from behind and thing like that.

TI: So these were, they're intercepting American codes and then you were translating the messages?

JM: The message, yeah. It's more like the pilots talkin' to them thing and thing like that, because when the Americans broke the, what do you call that now, the Japanese code, that's when Japan, they start, the kamikaze pilots start gettin' shot down before they even reach the destination. Yeah, because they got that code. But before that, when they seen the Zeros come, they said they used to run away, 'cause the Zeros, the maneuver was real good.

TI: But, but by breaking the codes they were more prepared for when they were coming.

JM: Yeah. So before they, before they even came to the target, they were shot down from the MiGs.

<Begin Segment 18>

SF: How did you hear about the atomic bombs?

JM: What do you mean?

SF: When they bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, how did you hear about that?

JM: In the, in the military we heard about that. But we didn't know, atomic bomb, a lot of people died, but exactly what kind of harm they did, we didn't know about that. 'Cause the second bomb was supposed to drop where our parents were, but it was cloudy that day, so instead of dropping where my parents was, on the way back to China they dropped her off at Nagasaki. They said, "We got to drop this bomb. We can't go back to China unless we do it," so they dropped it at Nagasaki.

TI: And that was a secondary site?

JM: Yeah, secondary site.

TI: But so, so you weren't really clear about the power of the atomic bomb --

JM: No.

TI: -- so when you heard that Japan was surrendering, what was the reaction of the people around you?

JM: Oh, everybody, they start crying. I mean, they had their heads to the ground and, I don't know what to say, but in my case I was kind of happy because the war was over, but the Japanese people, no, they were, they felt sorry for Japan, especially for the emperor because everybody was looking, the emperor was the number one person.

TI: And that, I'm guessing that some of the military people probably couldn't understand why they were surrendering. If they didn't really understand the power of the bomb, they're saying, why don't we keep fighting?

JM: Well that's it, yeah. I think that's why they tried, they had that second bomb, which they didn't drop off at Kokura, but in Nagasaki. Yeah. I guess, me too, I heard about that, too, but I didn't know how powerful it was. But afterwards I heard that everybody's going to the canal drinking water and thing like that because they get thirsty and everything. It was after that, the war was over, then I really found out how strong the atom bomb was.

TI: And then right after the war was over, you were telling you me earlier about the general, the one in charge of sending all the pilots.

JM: Yeah.

TI: Tell me what happened to him.

JM: To him, the second day he made an announcement in Japanese saying that he couldn't face the families of the, kamikaze pilots' family because he was the one that trained them and, "Never come back. You got to hit the target and that's it." So he said, "I can never face those people," so he says, "Instead of doing that, that I would die in their place," and then he did the hara kiri, but he didn't die right away. He suffered and died. He says that was the only way to apologize the family of the, the kamikaze people family.

TI: So when he committed suicide he did it in such a way that it would, he would suffer?

JM: Yeah, he would suffer and do it.

TI: So he would, it would take hours for him to die.

JM: Hours, yeah. He says, "I feel sorry for those pilots, so," he says, "it's not just a suicide thing," he says. "I want to suffer, too, because I can't face the families if I ever went back to Japan." And there was another general, too, he was in Nagasaki, I think. He caught the plane and flew to Taiwan, but I think he got court martialed and they hung him.

TI: So very different reaction, this other general.

JM: Yeah. Yeah, different.

SF: So in this one general's suicide, isn't it the tradition that you ask your close friend to, after a certain period of time to, to behead you with the sword?

JM: You're supposed to, but no, he didn't want to do that. He didn't want to do that. He said just hara kiri and that's it. That way he suffered, so to apologize for all the pilots and the family that are living.

SF: Now, was this something that you knew when it happened, or is this much later on that you heard about this, this story?

JM: Well, he did it the second day the war was over, but no, I found that out later on, that... first I heard about that, but I couldn't believe it, but when it came out in the paper, then I believed, yeah, he must've been really, just like the, what you call, the other general that got killed in the jungle, he too, died, too.

TI: And so how does that make you feel, or what, what do you think when you hear about this general that, in some ways, was your commander, but at the end he did this? What do you think about that?

JM: Well, he did this, I thought that, gee, it's a foolish thing to do, but since it was a war, that he's gonna get punished anyway, so it was better off that he would commit suicide by himself instead of going to court and everything. Because look at Tojo, he committed suicide and he couldn't kill himself and then finally they court martialed him and he got hung and died. He didn't want to do that. So that's why they call that the real yamato damashii, you know, Japanese spirit.

<Begin Segment 19>

SF: Can we go back a little bit, and right before the war ended, how was the Japanese population looking and preparing for the, what they must've thought was the Americans invading Japan, right?

JM: Well, lot of people were afraid of Americans, because the rumor is the girls, the young girls, the Americans come up, they're gonna kill you and they'll take you as this and that, so that never come out from the shelter or anything like that, but it was complete different story from what Japanese people said and American people.

TI: And what happened after...

JM: Yeah.

SF: So do you think that most people were willing to fight to the death with... you hear stories of people, like women preparing --

JM: Oh yeah, bamboo? Yeah. They were trained for that, too. In fact, in my wife's age, too, they were training for that, too, 'cause if the Americans come that they don't have any weapon, but get that bamboo and kill them. That was more common. At the schools, too, they were trained like that.

SF: So people would have really done that?

JM: Well, I'm pretty sure they would've, because look at Okinawa where the school kids, they jumped off the cliff and did all the suicide and everything. They were told, too, that if the Americans come, that you people get killed, raped and killed and that's it. So, but it was complete different story all the way around.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So you talked about, so the war ends and you talked about how you waited around until you were released, so talk about that a little bit. How, how were you released? So you're at the base, the war is there, the officers are there, so what happened?

JM: They just told me there's no, "You people could go home now," and that was it, so I just got my paycheck and went home. But I had to catch a train from, the train, it was maybe a forty-five minute ride to where I was gonna get off at, but I had the uniform on and the old ladies, they looked at me and in that crowded train they would open up a space, say, "Hey, you people, I feel sorry for you, too. Here, sit down here. Sit down there." They gave us plenty of room. They really looked after us, because the, when that war was over you should see the train. Everywhere you go, I mean, even the conductor and everything, they were all hangin' on back riding the train.

TI: 'Cause they were just so crowded?

JM: So crowded and everything. So when I got in there, too, in the back, this lady, there were three guys, ladies there, they opened up a space and says, "Sit down over here." And that, I was real thankful for that, 'cause they know Japan lost the war and then still, they knew that I was one of the kamikaze pilots, too, but they were real...

TI: And during this time, what was the mood of the people in, in the train? I know it's very crowded --

JM: Oh, they wanted to go home or go to their relatives or somewhere like that. They just wanted to go somewhere. And when I got on the train, too, I got off at Kokura, but from there I had to walk, it took me, from the station to my house, maybe twenty minutes, and in between there was Japanese military police, too, on a, they got a desk there, and I had to report there. Say, "What you got?" I said, "That's all my clothes and I got food and I got this and this," and they checked me and, "Where you from?" I said, "From the Fukuoka Air Base." And they wrote my name down, "Where you going?" I says, "Another ten more minutes. I just live over there." So they said, did that, but he says, "Soon as you get home, take off your uniform and everything and do it," he says, "because the Americans see you, they might kill you." That's how, they were afraid of Americans.

TI: When they had these checkpoints, what were they checking for? When they looked at your bag and everything, what were they looking for?

JM: Well, I guess it was more of a common thing and they'll get my name and everything. Even the military people, too, whoever was in the uniform, that they'll just check and ask you where you're going and thing like that.

TI: Okay, so you went home, and tell me the reaction of people when you, when you came home?

JM: Well, number one, my mom, she says, "Oh, gee, welcome home. I'm glad you're home." That was the first thing. And the kids, too, they were all happy that I was home. My dad too, he says, "You okay now?" I says, "Yeah, I'm okay." And then after that, a week later --

TI: Before we go there, so as you were walking to your house, were you a little concerned about the reaction you might get, because I still think about your mother saying, "Don't come home alive," did you think about that as you went home?

JM: No, no. I didn't think about that because it was, the war was over. If it was something else it'd be different. The war was over, so I didn't, and the place where I was going is, when I was going to high school, they all knew me, too, so they all look and say, "Welcome home." And that was it.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: Okay, so then you're, so what happened next? So you're, you're home.

JM: Well, after that, we're home, then the city policemen and city hall people and all those people there, they come to our place and with big fishes, expensive fish, and then, "Could your whole family come to the city hall and the police station and start doing interpreters because another week or so the American marines are gonna come into this town here?" So we were, all our family went out there and working for the city hall, the police station, and until the 3rd Marines came in.

TI: So when you say the whole family, so your older sisters?

JM: Yeah, older sister, my three sisters and my brother and myself. My other brother was kind of young yet.

TI: So five of you were, were used as interpreters.

JM: Yeah.

TI: You were all Niseis with, with American, or English as your first language. And what kind of interpretation, before, what kind of interpretation did you need to do?

JM: Well, first of all, introduce. I guess, "This is the city police, this blah blah blah," like that, and then after that then they would kind of gradually think that, "Hey, we have to do some checking on certain schools and check the houses, if they have any weapon," and thing like that. And then if we did, we had to go to a certain police station and they should know if they had, this place had Japanese sword or something, and they would bring the Japanese sword to the police station and we would have to pick those up and bring it back to the camp.

TI: So you would go out with, with the Americans?

JM: Yeah, with the Americans.

TI: And during that time when you're with the Americans, did they ever say, look at you, Jimmie and say, "So where did you learn to speak English?" Did that ever, you guys ever have a conversation?

JM: GIs would always say that. Says, "Hey, where'd you learn your English at?" But the Japanese people, I guess they knew I was an interpreter already.

TI: So what was the reaction from the Americans, the GIs?

JM: They welcomed me. And one day I was talkin' about something, and we had this GI three quarter ton truck and he said, "Hey, Jimmie," says, "Have you ever driven a truck before?" And I says no. What he did was, just the two of us was on there, what he did was he put it in gear and he jumped off the truck, says, "If you know how to drive, go, turn round there and bring the truck back." And I did, and he says, "Oh boy, you know how to drive, huh?" Yeah. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] And so was it, how was it for you all of a sudden to be around Americans and talking English?

JM: Oh, I was very proud and thing like that, too, yeah.

TI: Okay. And then you mentioned that you did that for a couple weeks and then the third division...

JM: No, the 3rd Marines came in first.

TI: Third Marines.

JM: Yeah. And then after that the 24th Infantry Division, they came in, too.

TI: And so how did that change? So you, instead of working for the city government you start working for --

JM: No, I gradually went to the camp 'cause they all wanted us in the camp.

TI: The, the Americans did?

JM: Americans did, the captains, the generals, they wanted us in the office.

TI: So this included your sisters and your, your brother?

JM: Yeah, everybody. And my sister and them, they knew how to type and everything, too, so it was good for them.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: So did, did anyone ever ask you about your Japanese military service? Did that ever come up?

JM: No. It never came out until I got a draft from President Truman.

TI: Okay, well, we'll get there. I just wanted to, so, so during this time, they, they never knew about...

JM: They never knew. I have never mentioned it to nobody.

TI: So they just, I guess, maybe assumed you were just with the family, with your sisters and your brother and...

JM: There was one GI, I wore this pilot jacket to this camp and he looked at me and said, "Hey, Jimmie." I said, "What happened?" "Hey, isn't that a pilot jacket?" And I said, "Yeah." And I kept wearing that for maybe two, three weeks.

TI: This was your old pilot jacket?

JM: Yeah, yeah. And then one day there was an officer, three officers and myself, we went in this Japanese restaurant and we're eating there, and then the military police seen the jeep outside, so they come and checked inside and they found out that it was the officers', we were eating with the officers, so I guess the officer told them that we're doing this, this and this. And as they were stepping, stepping out, this MP comes back in and calls this Japanese lady, "Come on over here," and says, "That," and pointed at the jacket, and he took it and took off with that.

TI: Oh, so he took your jacket?

JM: Yeah, jacket.

TI: As, like a souvenir?

JM: Yeah. So I told the lady, I said, "Why didn't you tell us we were in the..." She was afraid that if she told she would...

TI: So you lost your jacket?

JM: Yeah, I lost the jacket right there.

TI: But I'm curious, why did you wear your, your navy jacket?

JM: Something, it was kind of warm and everything, too, and comfortable, and I didn't think people would think about that.

TI: But you didn't think about that's a little bit kind of in your face, wearing a Japanese officer's jacket?

JM: No, no, I didn't even think, 'cause all the buttons were off and everything, anyway.

SF: So did, during that period, did you consciously think, "Oh, I should not, I should hide my past Japanese military experience"?

JM: No. No, I just thought I'd just keep my mouth shut, keep my mouth shut. Unless, if I was asked, I have, I was never asked about that.

TI: Now, was there, would there be any way for the Americans to know that you served in the Japanese military?

JM: I don't think they would've known unless I told 'em, because it was right after the war and you know how the Japanese, there was clothes and everything, school clothes and everything. They were wearing all kind of clothes to keep warm, so...

TI: Okay. I'm curious, as you're doing your translation work, did you ever come across any other Niseis, the MIS or anyone else doing translation work?

JM: Later on, yes. Later on. The MIS people, and then there was one Japanese people, he had a university cap and everything on, and he spoke real good English and we got together, talking and everything. So after that, yeah, there was quite a few people that came in and helped in the camp, too, that would speak English. And even the Nisei people, too, one of my best friends, too, he was working in the camp, too, later on.

TI: And so you started seeing more and more of these Niseis who were being used as, like, interpreters.

JM: More and more, yeah, Niseis. Interpreters and everything.

TI: And so any interesting stories about doing things with them, any interesting conversations or anything you remember?

JM: You mean with my friends or...

TI: Yeah, friends or with the MIS, or any of the Niseis.

JM: Yeah, well, we used to go out and enjoy ourselves at the nightclubs. [Laughs] And next day we'd be at work again. You know how it is, you know the country's all messed up anyway. But we got away with everything because now they knew that we were Americans, too, so if we happened to go in some places, they, "Oh, you're, you're interpreter, huh?" And I'll say, yeah.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: Now, you talked about earlier, how before the Americans came to Japan there was this fear by the Japanese about Americans, that they'd come, they'd rape and kill you.

JM: Yeah, rape...

TI: Now, after they've been here for a while, how would you describe the Japanese feelings towards Americans during the occupation?

JM: They gradually start to loosen up and they were welcoming them there, too, because if the GIs, now, if they go outside on Sunday or something, they'll have chocolate or tobacco, and things like that, so if the girls, you know, they go with the girls and go to a movie, something, they get the cigarettes and everything, so they became real friendly on both sides.

TI: So how about when you talked with, first with the Niseis, what were the Niseis' impressions of Japanese? The ones that, they'd maybe in MIS and they'd spent almost their whole lives in the United States and now they're in Japan, maybe for the first time for some of them, what do you think they thought about the Japanese?

JM: I guess they were, they were thinkin' that, because they had Japanese education, so they thought that stupid people, but we got along real good with those people, too. And any time we have some kind of a gathering or even with the officers or the mess hall, we all kind of get together and talk about how we spent in Japan and how when they were a kid, yeah, they were educated in Japan, things like that. And my best friend too, he was educated in California, but the parents too, even after the war, the parents said, "Hey, we're, Japan won the war, so we're gonna go back to Japan," and this friend of mine said, "No, Japan has lost." "No, no." So they went back to Japan and when the parents seen the GIs over there, that was the first time that the parents said, "Oh, Japan lost." It was a, California where, the camp where all those Nisei people, they were...

TI: It's either Tule Lake, Tule Lake?

JM: No, no.

TI: Manzanar?

JM: Yeah, that's, that's one place, and he came from there, too, but him and I were one of the best friends over there.

TI: And, and tell me a little bit more about the lives of the Japanese during the occupation. How hard was it in terms of just living in Japan?

JM: Well, gradually things start pickin' up so it was easy, but mostly all, at the beginning it was all black market, 'cause they'll, the black market, once they buy that they sell to people like that, so it was tough for everybody, the Japanese people. But in my case, too, I didn't even think about that 'cause I got whatever I wanted. Even the food, too, I got all American food and everything 'cause the quartermaster, 'cause they knew we were from America, if I brought home steak and thing like that, oh, my mom and dad, boy, they were happy as they could be. [Laughs] Bacon and everything.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: And so while you worked for, for the military, were you being paid as a U.S. citizen in dollars?

JM: No, in yen.

TI: In yen. So did they treat you as, as a Japanese national or as a U.S. citizen?

JM: No, U.S. citizen.

TI: And they paid you in yen, not, not dollars?

JM: No, not dollars.

TI: Why was, I thought you were supposed to be paid in dollars if you were...

JM: Well, I guess maybe I was too young or something, but no, everything was all in yen.

TI: But then, you, you're able to get supplies and things?

JM: Oh yeah.

TI: You mentioned the black market. Do you have any stories about the black market and how that worked?

JM: It's really hard to explain, but like, for instance, a GI would go out and then sell a cigarette and from there some other ladies, they'll buy it from the other people and it goes on through certain people, but as they go through second, third people they raise the price up and then the black market starts, so the GIs, they used to bring out candies, cigarettes, and later on the clothing, too, but they took time for that, but everything.

TI: Okay, so that, so they would sell it to, first one person, and then they would then be able to sell it for a little bit more.

JM: Yeah. More and more, yeah. It would go to second, third, fourth party, so wherever that is, you'd see all big crowd over there. That's the black market place.

TI: And you mentioned, what, cigarettes, candy, what were the high demand items besides...

JM: Everything. Shoes, combat boots and everything. Combat boots too, I don't know why, how they start sellin', but they put that under the table, so the MPs won't see it, but they'll start selling everything.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: So now, you mentioned earlier, you're just getting into it, how you were drafted by the U.S. Army, so tell me how that happened. What were you doing?

JM: I was working, I was helping out this quartermaster place and all of a sudden this fellow comes to me and says, "Hey, you're Jimmie, huh?" I says yeah. He says, "I got a present for you." [Laughs] I said, "A present for me?" He says, "Oh, I got it through your president." I opened it up. It says, says, "You go back to Camp Robertson here and take your training and then you go to Korea." That's what he told me. Boy, I mean, I really fainted that time. And I says, "No, I can't do that." So the general that I was working for was General Dean and I told him. I said, "Look what Truman sent me." He looked at it and he says, "Well, you're one of the Americans, too," says, "Korea's havin' a tough time now. You got to go out there and help our people." Then I says, "I can't do that." And he says, "What's gonna happen to you?" I, then I told that general how I went through, I seen too many dead people in Japan and everything and that I was a pilot in Japan and I can't go out and shoot anybody. He looked at me and says, "Is that true?" I says, "Yes, it is." So he says, "Oh, okay. If it's that case, I'll write to the President," and the secretary took down whatever the general said and sent it to D.C., and when we sent it out he said, "If we don't get an answer three weeks from the D.C. that, you'll be okay. You don't have to go to Korea." So in three weeks I didn't get no answer whatsoever, so I was lucky that I didn't have to take the training. Of course, if I took the training I had the Japanese training already, anyway, but I didn't have to go.

TI: So essentially the general said, if you don't hear back in three weeks then just ignore the order?

JM: Yeah, ignore, because I told the general, I said, "I've seen too many dead people. Hiroshima, everywhere you go, they're all, Japanese people, they're dying or they're burning and everything." So when said that, he looked at me and said, "Is that right?"

TI: Now, the general could have easily taken another path. He could've said, "No, Jimmie, you have to do this." In fact, maybe be angry with you for, for fighting with the Japanese during the war.

JM: Yeah.

TI: But he decided to do this and, and take your side. What, why was he like that with you?

JM: Well, I don't know, but he said, well, that time Korea, Americans, they were way down south, and that time I told the general, I said, "If you people give me a gun," I said, "I can't go out there and shoot the gun and kill anybody." I says, "No, I'd rather die by myself." I says, "No, I can't do that." So he kind of thought about that, too, and when I says, "You see all these Japanese people burning, dead, or hollering, half dead and everything," I said, "I can't go out there and shoot the Koreans." Then he too, I guess, he was a military general, so I guess had a second thought, too.

TI: So you think it was more like he said, "Well, Jimmie's more useful staying where he is, between helping the army there rather than sending him off to Korea where he won't want to fight."

JM: Korea. Yeah, that's it. I would've been a coward over there if I went there. But my brothers went there.

TI: Oh, so your younger brothers...

JM: Well, one of 'em went. The, one of 'em went to, what do you call, was it, no not Lebanon, the other country in, next to Korea over there. Yeah, he went there, too. Got two brothers, they were, my youngest brother, he made a career out of the military. Vietnam, he went to Vietnam three times, but he himself was with the officers, too, so he said he didn't have to go out on the front line. He worked real good with the officers.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: At some point you decided to return to the United States, so about what time was this, what year was this?

JM: This was in fifty, '56? No, not '56...

TI: I have early '50s.

JM: Yeah, early '50s. The reason that was, one of my best friend, now, that was in the camp over here, well, he wanted to come to America, too, but he went to the consulate and they said, "You can't, you get your papers back unless you join the air force," and so to him, he was Nisei born, so he went in the air force and stayed in the air force three years and came back and went to Cal Poly and he got his citizen paper back right away.

TI: Okay, because, because he was in Japan also during the war?

JM: During the war.

TI: And so somehow he lost his citizenship?

JM: No, no, the parents tore it up, said Japan won the war, see, but he says, "No, America did." "No, Japan did." So when they went back, their passport was all taken away.

TI: Oh, so they renounced their citizenship?

JM: Renounced, yeah, they renounced their citizen.

TI: I see, okay. But in your case, you never had renounced your citizenship.

JM: No.

TI: So in your case, what happened? This is early '50s, so you wanted to come back to United States. Your best friend had already come back...

JM: Well no, he was still, he was still in the military, but he was gonna come back, and then in my case, all I had to do was get the papers from Oregon. And that time my sister was already here in America already, so she went to, wrote to Hood River and got my birth certificate and sent that and there was no problem at all.

TI: So they, you were just, you showed that, you got some kind of, of entry papers or passport that enabled you --

JM: Yeah, and the passport too, so they said, "Carry this all the time, just in case if you get in trouble, something. Just take out the passport and you'll be okay."

SF: So did you want to come back to America right after the war ended and it just became stronger as the years...

JM: Well, it was just, right after the war ended everybody had a tough time and we didn't know what to do and everything, but my sister, she came back with her friend, and so my sister says, "Yeah, America is real nice. Why don't you come back, too?" in the letter. So I says, well, okay, in that case that I would come back to America, so when I came back to America they were in Salt Lake City, so I stayed there in Salt Lake City for a while.

TI: When you, when you came back to get your, to, to come back to get papers, were you ever questioned about your time in Japan and, and was that any...

JM: No.

TI: So no problems about that?

JM: No, it was no problems with that.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: And so when you returned to the United States, it's now been quite a while.

JM: Yeah.

TI: So how did the United States seem different to you?

JM: To me it was, everything was kind of strange, but my sister and my brother-in-law, "Hey, Jimmie," he says, "Since you come here you got to start working." And my brother-in-law was the chief cook at the restaurant, so he says, "I could pay you fifty cents an hour," says, "Could you come out and wash, do dishwashing?" So I said, "Yeah, that would be okay with me," and I started from there at this restaurant. And as I was working there, this Japanese fellow, he was a judo instructor, his name was Frank Nishimura and well-known at the camp. He used to teach Salt Lake City policemen and everything judo, and he was looking for a Japanese person that would help him do the gardening. So my brother-in-law says, "Hey, Mr. Nishimura, Frank wants to, is looking for somebody," says, "Do you want to work for him?" And my sister says, "Dishwashing, that's all you make," says, "Yeah, go work for him." And I started to work, help gardening with Frank."

TI: This is in Salt Lake City?

JM: Salt Lake City, yeah. And I stayed there and worked there until I figured that I want to come to California anyway and do something else different, but as I was doing gardening over there, since we came here I worked at the nursery for a while. It's a big Japanese, Bay City Flower Company Nursery, and then from there on, I worked there three years and then I went on my own as a gardening.

TI: And...

SF: I was gonna say, did you hang around with a lot of Nihonjins at that time, in the Salt Lake City area?

JM: Just when we got together, some kind of a thing goin' up, like if somebody passed away, all the Nihonjin, they'd get there together, or if it's some kind of a Japanese holiday you'd go to this Japanese store over there and gather and things like that. But they were, all the Nisei people, they were pretty quiet. They didn't want to speak out too much.

TI: Interesting.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: So you're back in California, and I kind of want to get into a little bit about your family, so when did you meet your wife?

JM: In Salt Lake City.

TI: And how did you meet your wife?

JM: Well, this fellow Frank Nishimura that I was working for, he was saying something and then he knew, well, he was, before it was just a friend, but now since I married her, he was my brother, got to be my brother-in-law, but from there on they introduced her and then her parents and everybody, I guess they knew my uncle in Japan and, you know, it was in a completely different place and then in the country we lived close together, too. So this Frank Nishimura introduced me to her, says, "Why don't you people get married and start raising a family?" and thing like that. And I was kind of afraid, but sooner or later, my sister, too, says, "You got to start sooner or later anyways."

TI: So you got married and then moved to California?

JM: Yeah. I think we got married, yeah, we got married in San Mateo. Yeah, San Mateo Buddhist Church.

TI: And how many children did the two of you have?

JM: Well, we got five all together.

TI: Five children.

<Begin Segment 29>

TI: And so I'm gonna jump ahead now, because one of your grandchildren, so this is more recently, Jonathan, I want to have you tell the story of, of... because you more recently started talking about your kamikaze experience.

JM: Yeah.

TI: So tell me the story of how Jonathan kind of prompted you to, to do this.

JM: I think it was three, well, it'd be pretty close to four years now, but whenever they come to our place and he would come in and I'd be in the office doing a lot of paperwork because I was doing the landscaping already, and then so when they came over one day, James -- well, my younger son is James, too -- him and Jonathan came in, and as they left the office he says, "Hey, Dad." And I said, "What do you want, Jonathan?" He says, "You know, Grandpa, he's got a Japanese plane on his desk every time" -- well that was his third time, I think, he's seen that -- he says, "How come that Japanese plane is on his desk?" And that time James called me right away and said, "Hey, Dad, you know, Jonathan asked me about the plane," so I told that to my wife, too, and I said, my wife says, you know, we should get together with the family and tell what I went through during the war. And so when Jonathan asked that, too, we told James, I said, "You know that zero plane? I think I'll tell the truth to Jonathon, that was zero plane that Grandpa was during the war." It was a model plane, but he just wanted to know why he had that plane. And so we got together and then after that we, the family got together, said, "We should tell this to all our families, the kids and all," so that's how it started. And then I said, " Jonathan, you want that plane?" He said, "Oh yeah, I do." He's still got it in his bedroom.

TI: And so before that, how much did your kids know about...

JM: Didn't know, they didn't know too much about.

TI: But maybe just a little bit about --

JM: Just a little, yeah.

TI: And so this was really the first time that you had really told the full story.

JM: Told, yeah.

TI: And what was the reaction of your kids, your grandkids?

JM: Well, they asked me a few questions, but that time, I guess they weren't that interested in military and thing like that, so, but they asked me...

TI: But they understood what a kamikaze pilot was?

JM: Yeah, yeah. Because my license plate, too, I think the first one I had was, it was "kamikaze." [Laughs]

SF: Oh really? [Laughs]

TI: So, so going back to Jonathan, so he's curious, he asked, so if he asked, "Grandpa," so, "Grandpa, what do you think about Japan using kamikaze pilots?" or, "What do you think about being one?" how would you respond to him?

JM: Well he didn't ask me that, but I would respond to him if he asked me that question, that I was, I had to go to the military in Japan because that time Japan, if you didn't volunteer or get drafted, that you'd be one of the Japanese thing, and since I was born in America that I had to do that. And he said, "Did you go to the war?" I says, "Well, I haven't seen the action of war, but I went to the war." And he says, "Oh, I see. I see." And after that he hasn't asked me any questions, because the plane, that was the only thing that was gettin' in his mind, is the plane, how did he, how did I get hold of it?

TI: But as he gets older, I'm thinking as he gets, maybe, more in high school, I'm wondering if he'll start thinking so, so as he understands that more and says, "So Grandpa, what do you..." I mean, again, the question of, "But Grandpa, you were gonna give your life, sort of, and what do you think about that now?" I guess, again, talking to your grandson now approaching, perhaps, military age, what would you tell him about that?

JM: Yeah. Well, it was, well, I told him about that. I says, about military, I says, in fact we were Americans in Japan, too, but the FBIs were always on our tail and everything, so even though I went to high school I didn't care whether I passed or not. Every test I took and wanted to be a pilot, well, I passed everything, so that was the way I joined the Japanese navy, I mean, the kamikaze training over there. And he says, "Were you afraid?" And I says, "No, I wasn't afraid then because I was young, too, and that time it was that I had to fight for the Japanese emperor."

<Begin Segment 30>

TI: So I guess one last question, I'm not sure how, how this relates, but in the same way, currently there are things going on in our world today --

JM: Yes.

TI: -- with, like suicide bombers.

JM: Yes, yes, yes.

TI: And if someone asked you, what do you think about that, or how is that different than a kamikaze, things like that, how, how would you think about that?

JM: In fact, I have never thought about that, but the other day, too, I brought that up, just like the Iran and India and everything, because they're, they're, in the paper, too, one time it says they were kamikaze bombers and thing like that. But after that I says, well, it's a different country, it's a different world, and that time and this time, it's completely different, too, so I told him, I says, I can't give him much information about that. But now they're saying it's the kamikaze bombers in Russia, Russia too, but India and all over the place.

TI: So does that make you a little uncomfortable, when, when they kind of use that term?

JM: Yeah, because going into a civilian people that has nothing to do with what they do, they go in there and then, if they carry the dynamite, they pull the button and everybody in that area will die out, and even at the car, too, if they have the bomb on the car, they go out and kill people, maybe fifty, sixty people. I says, no, no, I told him, I said, no, that's ridiculous.

TI: So is that like a, a different, different spirit than what a true kamikaze training would be in terms of it?

JM: Yeah, it's, yeah.

TI: So tell me about that. Why is that different?

JM: I think it's just, the one that they're doing now is religious. I mean, that's why, so it's complete different story, I think. Even though they're fightin' for their country, they, it's a religious country, so to me I don't know how to explain that.

TI: Well, the other thing you mentioned, too, was the civilian targets versus perhaps kamikaze, it was a more military...

JM: Yeah, military. We were in, kamikaze was in the military.

TI: Okay, good. Anything -- I'm at the end of my questions -- is there anything else that, that comes to mind that you want to talk about or say? Again, thinking of maybe Jonathan, maybe later on in his life, thinking and watching this, anything else for your other grandchildren or children in terms of something I haven't touched on yet?

JM: No, they all know now, so there's no, nothing about that. Yeah.

TI: Good. Steve, anything else?

SF: That's good.

TI: Okay. Jimmie, this was a really good interview. Thank you. Thank you very much.

JM: [Laughs] Well, I'm sorry...

TI: This was, this was amazing. Thank you.