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MN: Now this, this feeling towards, let's just focus on the pledge, was it later in life, like after when the Civil Rights Movement started to come up, is that when you became more conscious of the injustice? When did you start having, start thinking about all those things about what happened in camp?

TS: Well, that's a good question. In, in high school and college you study the Constitution, you study U.S. history and you find out all these things about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and everything, and then you start wondering, wait a minute, where the hell was the Constitution, where was the Bill of Rights and blah blah blah when we were put into camp? And even when the three or four people took it to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court said, no, it's justified and, and umpteen years later they say, well, we made a mistake. Then when the Civil Rights Movement started, that's when I really became so enraged and angry and resentful. The thing that, like I said before, it's just two-faced bullshit. We want you to be good citizens and la dah dah, we'll respect your rights, but then when push comes to shove they make all these excuses, throw us in the camps and treat us the way they did. And if you know anything about psychology, you know that a child's first years of life are the building blocks of your sense of value of yourself as a human being, a sense of your own self esteem, etcetera. And when you're called a piece of shit and "a goddamn Jap that shouldn't be here," you should go someplace where you've never been, and you're put down because, and you're crucified and you're, you're put down for what you are, of Japanese ancestry, it breaks your heart. I tell ya, I grew up with a broken heart. I kept thinking, "Why the hell do we have to go through this shit?" And even to this day it's, you still hear it, you still see it. It hasn't changed. It's never gonna change. And when I hear people say, "Well, I'm doing this and saying this because I never want it to happen again," well, that's the biggest bunch of shit, you know, because it just happened in Guantanamo. It'll happen again and again. But at least, at least when we speak up about it people can know how it affects people, how it ruins your life or how it affects your life.

So whenever -- I told you I worked in a mental health clinic for twenty years and I've seen people who were the ones who didn't succeed, the ones who weren't the winners, and people went insane. People went insane because of this shit we went through. And it's sad, but you never see them. You never see them in front of a camera telling their story. They can't do it. They're so damaged psychologically, emotionally, socially, financially. And so whenever I go to a conference and I see all these people, these are the winners. These are the success stories. The losers who killed themselves, who went insane, you don't see them there. And that's the ones I always think about. I think, my god. There's a million tears out there that nobody will ever see, they'll never acknowledge them, they'll never hear about it, but to me, those were innocent people and I, my heart goes out to them.

MN: Toru, you're able to vocalize all this now. Now, growing up, I imagine you internalized a lot of this, and how did you deal with internalizing all of this anger? Did you always feel there was something wrong with you, or how did you grow up before you started to vocalize all this?

TS: That's a good question, because when, when we left Tanforan to Topaz, my mother divorced my father, so when we got to, at Topaz I grew up without a father. And my stepfather came into our life and he always told us from day one, "I'm not your father. You're not my son." So I grew up without a father, all my life. And, but when I saw Japanese men who had character, who had integrity, and had love for their children, like some of my buddies' fathers, I used to always say to myself, jeez, I wish I had a father like that. I really hurt me not to grow up like, it really hurt me to grow up without a father, without a good, a role model, without being validated and supported and loved and etcetera. But from all that anger, and from all that hurt comes the anger and I just, I've been in therapy for a long, long time and it's done a lot of good for me, but at the same time, when you have broken heart it doesn't go away. It's, it becomes a part of you.

And I heard somebody just at a bar, I went to the bar, when I was in Toronto went to a bar -- I was attending this Canadian thing, Canadian thing, the Canadians, what they went through -- and I went to the bar and I was talking to the bartender. He said, "What are you doing here?" And I told him, and he said, "Why can't they get over it? Why can't they move on from it?" I said, "It's easy for you to say, but when somebody's life's been ruined, you're gonna tell them get over it, put it behind you?" I mean, that's a cheap shot, you know? And I told him, I was a therapist and I had this young lady that came in and I always said, "Why are you here?" And she said, "I'm here because I can't remember anything from the age of eight 'til I was fifteen. I remember everything in my life, the Christmases, the birthdays and whatever, but from the age of eight to the age of fifteen, I can't, my mind's a blank." And I thought, well, that's not, how serious is that? But it bothered her, so after many sessions it dawned on her that she was molested from the age of eight to the age of fifteen, and so she blocked those years out. And I could really feel for her, that this was her first introduction to sex. So you're gonna tell a person like that, "Get over it. Put it behind you"? Well hell, that's easy for you to say. What about this young lady whose life was practically ruined? Hopefully she's doing okay today, but I, I know damn well that you don't, like me, when your orientation to hakujin are the guys with the mean face with the goddamn rifle lookin' down at me and callin' me a "fuckin' Jap." Shit. You think I'm gonna -- I have a lot of hakujin friends, that's true. But when I see these other hakujins that are insensitive to Japanese ways and culture and me as a person, I think those are the... hakujins are the enemies for me, until they prove themselves. [Laughs]

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.