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TI: So the other thing I want to talk about is terminology, because we've talked about this in the past and you've mentioned some things like concentration camps, incarceration, you said are very strong terms, terms that you probably wouldn't use. So talk about terminology. What do you think, how should, how should we use terminology?

HU: Okay, you use it any way you want. Okay, we need people like -- well, we had to have people like Sue Kunitomi who said, who used the word "concentration camp" and this should never happen again and this should be a reminder that in the future this will never happen, well, we need people like that, otherwise, otherwise Manzanar would not be an interpretive center today. And so they could use whatever term, terminology they want. Okay? That's their, their privilege. But then I myself will not use the term "uprooted," "incarcerated," "concentration camp," "forced into camp" -- no, no offense to you. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, but, and the reason you said is because we use a lot of those terms on our website.

HU: Right, right.

TI: That's okay.

HU: So I would not use it. Let's say with, let's take the term concentration camp, okay? You use concentration camp, that's fine, okay? I have no, no qualm about that, okay? Go ahead and use it. But my, I won't use it and it's, and I get offended, personally get offended when it's used because let's put everything in context. Okay, it happened, evacuation happened in 1942. Let's take the terminology of 1942. What was concentration camp? Well, concentration camps were, prisoners of war were forced into this barbed wire compound with a rifle, but Japanese Americans, we were not forced in that way. We were not forced because we had an option. It wasn't much of an option, but they said, "Hey, you could move out of Western states or go into camp." So the word is, so concentration camp in the, in the terminology that was used in 1942, meant a compound of enemy, enemy soldiers put into this camp where when they escaped they would get shot, that kind of thing. And Manzanar, for example, wasn't, it was similar physically maybe. It had towers, it had, it had the barbed wire fence, and then, in fact, one guy was, was caught collecting lumber or something and he got shot, and so in the beginning at least it had the form of the concentration camp, but then we had a choice of making it a concentration camp or making it a community and when people were in there they built the churches, they had schools, they had other cultural schools or lessons, like flower arrangement. They had all kind of things like judo, kendo, so they have all these activities and they had businesses like photo shop, they had gift shop, and that was run by the cooperative enterprise, which was owned by the people there. I think in Manzanar they had, each person seventeen and over had about five dollars and eighty-seven (share in co-op) or something like that.

TI: Right. So, so Hank, so it's clear to me, so you think maybe, so what I'm hearing is "concentration camp", in your mind is too harsh. You would, you would say that here was more of a community rather than, than what you would term a concentration camp?

HU: Yeah. And then also there was the Jewish, I mean Nazi concentration camp. I mean, six million lives were lost, so when you talk about, when we use the word "concentration camp," to me, it's that type of thing and it implies that we were enemies, which we were not. In fact, thirty-three thousand Niseis, Sanseis served in the armed forces, so that's where...

TI: So let me, let me turn around a little bit, or let me share... so I, terminology is, is, I think, really important, and so when I talk to the scholars to help, so I say, "What do we call these camps?" And so some scholars would say, well, some of the things you said. So look back at the era, 1940, 1942, and their take is that the term "concentration camp" was actually a term used by the government people, like President Roosevelt and others to describe where the Japanese and Japanese Americans went, and what they say is that the term "concentration camp," the terminology or the meaning got twisted a little bit or changed when people found out about what happened in Germany and, and places like Poland where you had the Nazi, what they called concentration camps. And so what the scholars say, well, they're, it's kind of like euphemisms, that in fact what happened in Germany, those are more like what they would classify as death camps, and, and in the same way, in the United States, the government used euphemisms, that internally they would call them concentration camps, but instead they would call them relocation centers. So that's what the scholars say, so they are trying to perhaps... and what you said, try to use terminology that was perhaps more in that era. So that's kind of what they're saying, so I just wanted to share and see what kind of reaction you have when, when the scholar who said that, "Well, Hank, here's the documents, here's a memo. Roosevelt actually says concentration camp, or at a press conference when people ask him, 'So where are the Japanese going?' He'll say, 'Concentration camps.'" So what do you think about that?

HU: I think, well, they could call it whatever they want, but then, to me, it was not a concentration camp. To me it was a relocation camp and when we came out of camp, for, until about 1970 no, we used the word camp. We'd say, "Hey, which camp did you go to?" Camp, we referred to it as a camp, not a, never a concentration camp, and the concentration camps, people start talking about concentrations camp in the '70s. I remember I attended one lecture. It was given by professor, Japanese professor who was teaching at one of the universities on the coast up North. I can't remember his name, but he, then after the lecture I talked to him and said, "Hey, I was in Manzanar and to me it was not a concentration camp. It was a relocation camp and we never referred to it as a concentration camp." And he says, "Well, you know, I'm a PhD. I'm a professor," and he, yeah, he says, "I studied all the literature that these other professors wrote on the camp and that's concentration camp." And he says, then he says, "I'm a PhD and you're not," so he was saying that -- I was there; I should know. But he's saying that he knows, he's implying that I don't know anything, and I asked him, "Where were you during the war?" He said in Japan. He says, so he never, he was a Japanese, Japan Japanese sort of, so he was, he had no experience or association with the Niseis, so that's kind of, struck me as kind of funny.

TI: So it sounds like almost, so what you're, you perhaps don't like is, so it's kind of like these people after the fact, whether they're from Japan or even younger who are coming in using, perhaps, terminology that they think is more appropriate, but they weren't there. I mean, it's people like you and others who lived through the experience and, and what I'm hearing is feel like you want, in some ways, more ownership of that in terms of the terms and what it's called because you, you experienced it?

HU: Yeah.

TI: That makes sense.

HU: So personally, to me, there's an implication that when, when I'm put into a concentration camp I'm an enemy of this country sort of, and that's...

TI: When you said "enemy," I think, and earlier you said you don't also want to be portrayed as a victim either, a sort of victim mentality.

HU: Right.

TI: So there was all those things. Okay, good. So I finished my questions, but I do want to leave it open in terms of, if there's anything else that you want to share or talk about that I didn't ask. We've covered lots of different things, but I just want to give you an opportunity, is there anything else that you want to talk about?

HU: No.

TI: Okay. Well this was fabulous. This was a good interview. This was interesting. You're not, you were concerned, I think, about having these outlandish views, but I think if anyone listens to this interview they'll get a nice picture of, of your life and why you think the way you are, so I think this was good. So thank you very much.

HU: Thank you.

<End Segment 30> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.