Densho Digital Archive - Aiko Tengan Tokunaga Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: Okay. Today is Thursday, July 29, 2010, we're at the Centenary Methodist Church in Little Tokyo, Los Angeles. Dana Hoshide is on video, we have Aiko Tengan Tokunaga, and I will be interviewing, and my name is Martha Nakagawa. Okay. Let's start with your grandfather that went to Kauai. What was his name?

AT: Kamesuke Yabiku.

MN: And your grandmother who married Yabiku-san?

AT: Kama Yabiku.

MN: What was her --

AT: Kama Arakaki.

MN: Arakaki. And what prefecture were they from?

AT: They're from Okinawa.

MN: And how many children did the Yabiku, your Yabiku grandparents have?

AT: Six. Three girls, three boys.

MN: And where was your mother among the siblings?

AT: My mother was the oldest of six.

MN: And what was her birth name?

AT: Her birth name was Yabiku Sachiko. Sachiko Yabiku.

MN: And which island, which Hawaiian island was she born on and what year was she born?

AT: She was born on Kauai, Koloa, Kauai, May 27, 1920.

MN: Now, you said your Yabiku grandmother had six children and then she also worked on the plantation. Can you share with us some of what life was like having six children and having to work?

AT: I assume everybody was in the same situation where your main support is to work in plantation alongside your husband. And I don't know exactly what they did as a woman, but I've heard her telling me that they had to take all the younger siblings and put them in the, like a chicken coop, linked fence, where they would leave the children there. And during the mealtime, they would go there and breastfeed them. That was during lunchtime. She was talking about, she used to tell us even rain or shine, that's where they had to work, so like a hat, papali, she said rain can come down from the hat, just dripping, and still had to feed the baby. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Now, your mother left Kauai and went to live in Okinawa.

AT: Uh-huh.

MN: How old was she when she did this, and why did she go to Okinawa?

AT: Well, my grandmother's family, her siblings didn't have any children, except one child by her older brother had one son, rest she had four other sisters. And no one had any children. So my mother was adopted by my grandmother's immediate older sister, who lived in Okinawa. And so she was adopted, and that's how she ended up in Japan.

MN: Was this a common practice among the Japanese or the Okinawans, to adopt?

AT: I believe so. Adopt or being just raised by your aunt, uncle, grandparents, especially around that time, I guess, 1920s or '30s. I think many of the Hawaii immigrants, they sent their children to Japan to be educated. So my mother was legally adopted, but her siblings, her immediate younger brother, was also sent to Okinawa to be educated. So he lived there until he graduated high school. So I assume it's, it was a common practice. Everybody was like their own children or own sibling.

MN: And how old was your mother when she was adopted?

AT: I'm not quite sure exactly, but I believe she was between eight, ten, around there.

MN: And what was your mother's new adopted name?

AT: Oshiro. Oshiro, so she went as Sachiko Oshiro.

MN: Any idea what year she arrived in Okinawa?

AT: Probably around 1930, '31. Very close to that.

MN: And do you know how she got to Okinawa? Did she go by herself?

AT: She, she said someone in Hawaii, her neighbor, was also going to Okinawa. So her parents had asked the person to take her all the way to Okinawa. And of course it's traveling by sea, so I would think it would take a couple weeks or more, around that time. And there, she said, her adopted parents came to meet her in Yokohama. Yokohama or Kobe, I think she said Yokohama.

MN: And then from there they traveled to Okinawa.

AT: Okinawa in a different ship.

MN: Now, when she arrived in Okinawa, did she speak only English or Japanese or Uchinaguchi, or do you know what she spoke?

AT: I think, I believe she was strong in Japanese. I don't know how, if she knew how to read and write, but I think speaking, she was probably speaking with her parents. So it was mostly English and Japanese. But, well, she sure forgot her English very quickly because she hardly speaks English now.

MN: Did your Yabiku grandmother ever talk about regretting having her oldest daughter go to Okinawa?

AT: She did at times, because she said, being the oldest and being the girl, she said, would have really helped her around the house with other children. So that was, she said, oh, she would have been much, you know, more help, that I hear. So that was the only time. [Laughs] But as samishii and all that, I haven't heard anything. [Laughs] But she thought, oh, she felt that she was lucky being adopted. That she would have had a, she probably had a much better life than other younger siblings living in plantation in Hawaii, whereas she would have been the only child by the adopted parents.

MN: What about your mother? Has she ever talked about how she felt about being adopted?

AT: She said she was told that her actual real parents lived in Okinawa. That she, it's time for her to go back. So she said she truly thought that she was, that was her real parents. And according to my sister, she didn't really find out until her high school, school high school year, that she was told that she was adopted. But of course it was aunt and mother, so I don't think she really felt that much of regret or mad at her parents or anything like that. I think she felt that she was more fortunate being in a better situation.

MN: Can you share with us a little bit about your Oshiro grandparents in Okinawa? What kind of occupation did your Oshiro grandfather have?

AT: They were in education. My grandfather... my grandmother, too, at that time, went through a school, and she was more or less home economics, teaching dying, sewing, and those things, and was, had some students in outer, smaller island near main island. She would go there to teach. And my grandfather was a schoolteacher, and he was teaching in junior high, high school level, and during that time, he felt that he wanted to go back and further his education. So he went back to a university. I wouldn't say went back to a university. At the time, in Okinawa, there was school after, from the high school time. It was a regular high school or teacher training high school, they called it, normal school and teacher training school. So he had, yeah, graduated there with a teaching certificate and was able to teach. But he wanted to get regular four-year university education, so he applied in Tokyo, so they moved to Tokyo during his college years. That was including, I mean, both grandparents and my mother also went there, too.

MN: Before we to go Tokyo, can you tell me, you mentioned your Oshiro grandfather was an expert in Chinese literature, not Japanese literature, and why is that?

AT: I don't know exactly why, the reason, but Okinawan history, culture, is very close to Chinese. So I don't know if that was the reason, but his field or his major or whatever, was Chinese literature. And Chinese literature plus the Okinawan culture. So he, well, these professors who was teaching at, he went to Kokugakuin university, and I think they, his professors were, as well as Chinese, more into Okinawan culture. So he befriended with them. But my feeling is that because it was much closer to Okinawan and Chinese history, literature, culture, part of the reason that he went into Chinese literature.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: Now, when your mother moved to Okinawa, do you know if she got teased for being a Amerikajin?

AT: I don't think so. She has never complained about that. Rather, I think they kind of thought, "Oh, you're from America," or, "You're from Hawaii." That wasn't America. Hawaii was Hawaii at that time, "You're from Hawaii." [Laughs] And so more of, envious, I think, rather than being teased.

MN: And how much schooling did your mother receive in Okinawa?

AT: She went through all the, from elementary through high school. And she went to college in Tokyo, but it was junior college, Jissen, Jissen University, it's well-known, Jissen University. But I believe she went to the junior, two-year college rather than four years. So her being educated as far as graduating high school, you know, if graduating high school was a big thing, most of education many of the girls got at that time, so immediately, yeah, after the war, she was able to teach. Yeah.

MN: So your, the Oshiro side in Okinawa, would, could we say they're upper-class?

AT: Maybe in their village, but not really upper class. But because when they lived in Naha, Shuri, because my grandfather was teaching at that time, that... and I guess my mother was well enough to pass tests to enter good schools. So I think those were looked at as more fortunate family, but not really upper-class. But, yeah, they didn't have to do farming to support themselves.

MN: Your, either your Yabiku grandmother or your Oshiro grandmother, did they have tattoos on their hands?

AT: They... they, my Oshiro grandmother might have had little faded, but not very... but one sister immediately above her had a -- I don't know how many years difference in age -- but she did have that more noticeable than the other ones. So I think, I think Hawaii grandmother might have been, might have been a little young to be tattooed.

MN: Can you share with us why Okinawa women tattooed their hands?

AT: That was to show that they were married, and so that's because when Satsuma invaded Okinawa, they took many women, from what I hear. So to hide from that, I understand, they were trying to tattoo themselves to appear more ugly. And my mother said it's like a Japanese, that ohaguro, where they color teeth, it was similar. But again, I know there's elaborate tattoo these older women had, could be some symbol of a priestess, they might have had more elaborate and very distinguished dark color. And I never figure out if there was any, or found out if there was any significance in design. I know they had different designs. Some had it all on knuckle, some only had it here, up to here like this. So... but again, that went away from, after Meiji era, too, so anybody that would be having those would be born in Meiji, before... with the Meiji Restoration. So yeah, has to be earlier Meiji. Like my grandparents were born in Meiji era. But anybody that was born in Taisho, that era, wouldn't have any of those.

MN: Meiji would be 1876, the Meiji Restoration?

AT: Restoration, yeah.

MN: I think that's when also Okinawa could no longer, Okinawans could no longer speak Uchinaguchi?

AT: Apparently that was kind of enforced. That I didn't know, but I only remember after the war that we were enforced. But that was only in, like, school, that they were trying to teach Japanese. So, "You should be able to speak proper Japanese." But outside, everybody spoke Okinawan, Uchinaguchi.

MN: Now, you had mentioned your Oshiro grandfather decided to attend a Tokyo university?

AT: Uh-huh.

MN: Now, how common was it for a Okinawan at that time to go to this university-level education on Honshu?

AT: Very, very rare, especially my grandfather's time. Maybe they probably knew each other was there, but very few. First of all it was expensive to send somebody, and secondly, you have to be educated to that level to be able to attend university. So I believe it was very few people that actually went to Honshu, mainland Japan, to school.

MN: So your Oshiro grandfather must have been highly respected to be able to do this.

AT: I believe so, I guess so, yes. And very determined to do that. [Laughs] Like I said, he was working before he entered, so I'm sure, I guess that's where financial support that he was able to, to...

MN: Now, you mentioned that it was very rare for somebody from Okinawa to go to Tokyo. Had your mother ever talked about, or your grandmother, grandparents talk about being discriminated in Tokyo?

AT: No, no. That I have never heard. They talked about having a helper at home, or maid helping or that, or they entertained, invited friends, I guess. So I have never heard of any of our family being discriminated from Japanese.

MN: Would you say is it because they were in the academic circles and maybe they were more open?

AT: I think so. I think so. Because, yeah, even... well, and then also, they were there for some purpose, that I know a lot of complaint that people go there to work, the companies, they hire, they say they don't, they lack stability because they get homesick, and a year later, they cannot stay and they leave. So those were the complaints that I've heard. But if you had a specific goal, determination to complete, so I think, yeah. And of course my grandfather was going to school, but he was with the family, too. So I think that was more a plus on his side. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: And around this time, your, I guess your mother was old enough to get married in Tokyo, is that correct?

AT: No. She didn't get, she was... I would think she was probably going elementary school at that time. And I know because she went, she finished high school in Okinawa. I know she went to elementary school in Okinawa, and high school in Okinawa. So I would say it's her middle school time that she was in Tokyo. And I've never heard of any complaint from her that she was being harassed or anything. I don't know if there was any word "harass" used at that time, but being discriminated or anything like that.

MN: But I would assume her Japanese was good, and she wasn't speaking a dialect.

AT: No.

MN: So she could fit in in Tokyo.

AT: Yeah, yes.

MN: So she returned to Okinawa to go through high school. When did she marry your father?

AT: Well, and then she went to Tokyo to go to college. So she went... I don't know if she completed college, that's the fact. She might have finished, and then she went back. And then my father, my Oshiro grandfather was very good friends with... I don't know if they, they were, I think, high school, they went to the same high school, so friends with the then-governor of Okinawa. This is before, I don't know if they called it governor at that time, but somebody in politics. So he knew also my father's side's father. So that's where my, he played nakoudo, matchmaking, so that's how they met in Okinawa. And, yes, she got married. And I guess, yeah, he had finished his education, my father also went to university in Tokyo, and I guess he had just returned back home. So that's, that's when they, that's how they met.

MN: So your father also was going to a university in Tokyo. So it sounds like both, both your father's side and your mother's side were in the elite class, Tokyo?

AT: More, I guess, educated. 'Cause you know, that time, you got to match the family to where you married. So I think that's why they were kind of introduced. The person who's introducing them would look for it. Because my grandfather on Tengan side, my father's side, was very much involved in politics. So he was, that, and so I guess he was so-called like "assembly-like," you know, representing from each village into this prefectural government. So that's how they were introduced.

MN: And what was your father's name?

AT: Kenzo Tengan.

MN: And Tengan seems like an unusual last name. Is it unusual in Okinawa?

AT: No, it's not. There's a village called Tengan, and practically everybody's Tengan. [Laughs] But Tengan is very unusual from, yeah, Japanese perspective. Here, too, not too many Tengan.

MN: What is the kanji for Tengan?

AT: Ten, heaven, ten, and gan is negau, to request, or onegai. Tengan.

MN: Now, after your parents married, do you know what year they married?

AT: My mother always talks about her anniversary is Meiji Tennou's birthday, so it's April 29. She was born in 1940? '39 or '40.

MN: '40, okay, right before the war.

AT: Yes.

MN: And your parents were living in Tokyo for a while.

AT: Yeah. After, after they got married, they lived in, yes, Tokyo.

MN: And what was your father doing there?

AT: He was a physician. And he was working in Okinawa at the hospital, but he went to Tokyo. He was lung specialist, so he was in... apparently Yokohama. In Yokohama there was a lung, TB center, tuberculosis center, what do you call it? Yeah, hospital, clinic, where they only take care of... and apparently that's where he was working during that time. So that would be shortly after they got married, because my sister, older sister, was born in '41, and she was born in Tokyo.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: Now, your family returned to Okinawa. Why, why did they return to Okinawa?

AT: My mother said that war was beginning, and my father got a notice, the induction paper, that he felt that he'll probably be called very soon, and it might be safer for them to move back to Okinawa where the family are. So that's how they all moved back to Okinawa.

MN: So your family was, were they living in Naha when the war started?

AT: Yes.

MN: And what year were you born?

AT: I was born in '43.

MN: So you were born when the war had already started.

AT: Right, but hadn't arrived in Okinawa.

MN: And what is your birth name?

AT: Birth name's Tengan, Aiko. Aiko Tengan.

MN: And where were you born? Were you born in a hospital? Were you born, delivered by a samba-san?

AT: I believe in hospital, but again, I'm not sure, you know, by samba-san that delivered, but I think it was in a hospital meaning like clinic.

MN: Now, the war is going on, it hasn't reached Okinawa yet. But you mentioned that your family didn't think you were going to survive. Why is that?

AT: Well, because the very shortage of food. My mother was very, very undernourished, malnourished, and my... well, I was told that when I was born, I was very, very, almost gaikotsu, bone with the skin hanging. [Laughs] And so, and my mother didn't have any milk to give, and so my grandmother said she couldn't give me a bath because as though the skin would just come apart. So she said had to kind of tap on the body to keep the skin from falling. So that's, so I think, gee, it was the nourishment that my mother wasn't getting. But I have a lot of classmates, so everybody survived. [Laughs]

MN: Your parents lived in the city, the capital. Do you think the people living in the country had more to eat, or were the Japanese soldiers already there taking food away?

AT: No, I'm sure they had, they had food. Okinawans, if we had a potato, we can survive. So I'm sure they had, before the bombing came, they had the hatake, their fields, so I think they were, yeah, able. Probably make, other than what they grow, they probably couldn't buy a lot of things. But I think they were able to survive.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: Now, when you were born, do you know if your father had already been drafted?

AT: Yes, definitely.

MN: Where was your father stationed and what were his responsibilities?

AT: He was stationed in Okinawa, and he was part of the med corps. And we don't know exactly where, but we assume that he was in the southern part of the med corps, because that's, of course, that's where the hardest hit was. So in Haebaru, that area, more of the southern part of the island where he was. That's where all the medical group, many of high school girls acted as a nurse, and that's where they were all... I think they had a two or three station medical unit, one, two three, I don't know if there were more than that, but they were all scattered around that area. And he was one of those.

MN: When was the last time your family saw your father?

AT: That was when, apparently when he came to see me, so that was in the very beginning... or I was born in September, so it was probably around the winter of '44, something like that. So around that time in '44, 1944.

MN: '44. But you were born in '43.

AT: Yes.

MN: Do you remember your father at all?

AT: No, not at all. Not at all.

MN: What does your family know about your father's death?

AT: My father's death, very little. Because everybody died together at that time. But some, there were one or two high school or junior high students, boys that survived, said, "Oh, he was at this place the last time I saw him." So from there, that he was being very helpful to Okinawan students, kids, and always trying to help the Okinawan injured, but he was being quite reprimanded by the Japanese soldier that he should, his duty is to take care of them. So, but he would try to help them or ask, because of his status as going to the villages to help the injured, that he would have access to the certain villages. So he would ask, "Where are you from?" "Can I check your family?" and things like that. So those are the things that we heard about him, his last moment from survive, the student. So of course students are probably all in their seventies, eighties by now. So I don't know where they are or we've never found out any more detail. Of course, we never found the body or remains. Southern part, when they had a severe land bombing from the air, they hit all these sugar cane field area. That's where the southern part of the island, they had a big sugar cane field. And they found a lot of body remains there, and my mother was told, "You can try and go find the body there." She said she tried, but she said she got so sick of looking, but she said she couldn't really find any remains.

MN: Do you think... you were mentioning how your father were, he was supposed to help the Japanese soldiers, but he was helping the civilians, Okinawan civilians also. Was it possible that he might have, that might have angered the Japanese military and that he was sent to the front?

AT: Right. That's what one student said that. He said, "The last time we saw him," he saw him, was that he was talking to the students in Uchinaguchi, Okinawan dialect, trying to ask about them. And the Japanese soldier didn't like that, and told him to get out and go to the front. And he said he saw my father leaving and the back, the back of him, "That was the last time," he said, "I saw him." So we don't know whether he was being shot by a Japanese or if he was actually killed by U.S. bombs. That's a very unknown fact that we never cleared.

MN: And you also thought perhaps he may have died with the Himeyuri Butai. And can you share a little bit about who the Himeyuri girls were?

AT: The Himeyuri girls were Japanese -- not Japanese, Okinawa Girls High School, they call, they had Dai Ichi Koujou. Ichi Koujou was located in Naha Shuri area, and Nikoujou was next town or like that. So those girls who were in school at that time, they had, what, three years, right, in high school? Three years. They were all drafted as a nurse. And their symbol is Himeyuri, the lily maiden. And they were all trained or used as nurse at that time, so that's... and they were always with these medical corps group. And, of course, the young boys, students from, at the end, from junior high on, they were all taken as soldiers. So, you know, you can be twelve, thirteen, to seventy, eighty year old men, they were all taken as soldiers to fight with whatever they had with the bamboo sword. So Himeyuri, the nursing corps, were the high school students.

MN: And did a lot of these girls die?

AT: They all did. Most of them. And also, they were given grenades, each one, instead of, "If there's a time that you're gonna be captured by U.S., just kill yourselves." And a lot of them either jumped off the cliff... because they were brainwashed that, "If you were being captured by U.S. military, they will rape you and they will, you'll be tortured." So there were a lot of them just killed themselves, used the grenades. So if there's any... there are some survivors who are acting as docents at the museum, memorial museum in Okinawa, but most, very few remain.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Can you share with us what, significance of the Juujuukuushu?

AT: Okay, juujuu is "10-10," kuushu is war, so it was October 10th, I believe in, first came in, must be in '44. 'Cause war ended by '45, so '44. So October 10th, apparently, is the first bombing of island. So that's, that's called as Juujuukuushu. And then from there, it had some time in between, and then the actual landing I think came May or June, two months, end of April. I need to study more history. [Laughs]

MN: Did this kuushu, this air raid affect your family in Naha?

AT: I don't know. I believe that was the time, yes. I think Naha was mostly flattened. Because they did the Naha, they came from Naha to Shuri area. So, but I don't know how much of... yeah. I don't know. At that time, maybe not, because... 1941, '42, '44... yeah, that was a time that, because my sister was three when she was escaping, she said. So yeah, she said she remembers that, just trying to escape from the, 'cause everybody had to walk wherever they had to go. So she said she remembers, so got to be that.

MN: Now, you were just a baby at this time. Did your mother ever, your family ever talk about how they were worried that you might cry and then alert the American soldiers while you were escaping?

AT: Yes. See, during the escape, we had to hide in a tomb or a cave. And yeah, definitely they were very worried that any babies crying, too. And this is, of course, after the land invasion. So, but apparently I was, I probably didn't have any energy to cry, but they said, yeah, I didn't cry. But some babies that cry, I don't know if they've seen actual, but then they were being forced out from the cave to save the other people or some, they had to kill their own baby because of crying. And you know, of course, no milk, no nothing to eat, and the babies would be crying. So I've heard of lot of those cases happening.

MN: How did your mother take care of your basic needs like washing your diapers?

AT: She said she did it all at night. She did it all at night, wherever there's tanbo, sugar paddy, or wherever there's water. She said she had to do it at night. And my grandmother would tell her that she'd take me on her back with her, because if she gets killed, that they couldn't raise me. So she said, she would be complaining that, "I had to carry you on my back and go out and wash all the diapers." So I think that was, I think that's what everybody was doing. But my mother would say, "Oh, you walk through all this and there's dead body there, dead body here, and sometimes mother's dead, the baby's crying," and you just kind of, you don't know what to do with... in square yard, three bodies average, a square yard.

MN: Did your mother have to help with the Japanese soldiers at all?

AT: No, but then she said they had to go and do some labor, some sort of labor job. So I don't know exactly, like carrying some stuff, I remember her mentioning, but that part I'm really not sure.

MN: And then you mentioned about your sister remembering hiding in the caves?

AT: She remembers, yeah. She said, she was only three, but she remembers hiding in the cave, and she said the most frightening thing was the fire bazooka that was being shot into the caves. She said, she said 'til this day that -- which I never knew until I visited the museum and I saw all these, I said, "What's all that?" Then she recalled that. She said, "Oh, that was the most frightening thing." But cave is very, very deep, so they would be going... but they can apparently hide farther than actual attack right through it. But of course, there were people that were being killed. But tombs, there's the stone walls, doors that you can close. But sometimes if you have it open, my grandfather told me, he said he was sitting by the entrance, there was a gentleman sitting next to him, and the bullet came and shot him right there. So he said, "Oh, so and so was just," they were just talking. So he said, "Oh, I've been hit," and just died there. So I think at night, I know they closed it.

MN: Do you know what they were eating to survive?

AT: Everything. [Laughs] Well, mostly potatoes. Yeah, potatoes and grain and vegetable or whatever they can get. Even immediately after the war, as I can remember, I mean, we did eat lot of potatoes, potato and rice, of course. You know, once a year, everybody had... but during the war, I'm sure it was very scarce. So the rice, potato, whatever they can find, anything that they can find in the field.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: Now, your family lost everything in Naha. Where did they escape to?

AT: Escaped to southern part, Chinen area. My grandfather was from Tamagusuku, which is little more south. Chinen, Kudeken area is also very south part of the island. But my grandmother's ancestor was from that village, so they had a home there, house there, so that's where we all escaped to. And that house, I guess during the war, they might have had a military, Japanese soldiers might be living in there, but by the time we went there it was all clear, so we were able to live there. And so our whole family lived with Mother's great-aunt.

MN: Now, towards the end of the war, do you know if your family members were pressured to commit suicide?

AT: No. My father, my grandfather was very, very adamant to, for everybody to live. So no, they weren't, I don't think they even thought of it. So, you know, and Okinawan elders, older people, they feel that your life is your fortune, so their motto is "nuchiru takara," your life is your treasure. So they tried to, for everybody to live as much... so it was most, like I said, the ones that committed suicide were mostly those girls that were, who was just being brainwashed, that, what their consequences are if they were being captured by U.S. soldiers. So no, not too many people committed suicide.

MN: Now, once the war ended, your family might be starving, but how did your family feel about receiving U.S. military rations?

AT: My grandfather was quite upset because he said, "I can't eat cheese, I can't eat that," or canned food. But, you know, we all received, thankfully, and my grandmother would improvise it so that he can eat. You know, with miso and shouyu or whatever they had. So it was, yeah, it was okay. And once we started living in the countryside, of course, we raised our own food. So we had big hatake, fields, so we had rice and vegetables, enough to eat for everybody.

MN: Do you know if anybody in your family dealt in the black market?

AT: No. No, not that I know of. But let's see... it's not, well, I don't know if you'd call it black market. But, like, you know, if there's, like from Hawaii, because had a family in Hawaii, maybe they might send ten dollars, twenty dollars, U.S. dollars, something like that. My grandmother would know where to exchange, you know, if you go to Naha area, and these ladies come to us. So I don't know. That's about the thing that I know of. That was to, changed to Okinawan currency. We had a special, they called it BNB currency. And of course that was changed to U.S. dollar after that, then to yen. So other than that, I really don't know anybody that dealt in black market.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Now, you started elementary school after the war. How did you feel about growing up without a father?

AT: Oh, very normal. Because my whole classmate, nobody had fathers, and everybody was being raised by their grandparents or their mother only. And each family had more than one kid, and so really very, very normal. Some, even, oh, when we were in second or third grade, maybe they would lose their mother, the five kids just living on their own. So as far as not having father, nobody felt any strange. We thought it was strange somebody had father. So that was very novel to us.

MN: So a lot of these fathers died during the war.

AT: During the war, yes.

MN: And you had a teacher that never wore a sleeveless shirt?

AT: Yes. That was my fifth grade teacher, and I know she was, she was, we were her first class after she became a teacher, and she never wore short sleeves. She always wore long sleeve, and we never figured that out. And my, I remember my grandmother talking about, she got burned. And then I can, we were able to see some red marks over here. And, of course, we never questioned. We didn't think anything was... because in class, we would have some students with, I guess, now, you can say a really bad case of eczema, almost too infected, all boils, sores, all of the body. There were kids like that. And we had our lice checked, and we were being sprayed with DDT on our hair, so those things were all normal to us.

MN: Now, with the U.S. occupying Okinawa, which language was used to teach, teach the children?

AT: Oh, it was all Japanese. Japanese. But I think we were introduced to English alphabet from much, much... we did it from the first or second grade. Whereas in Japan, I understand it was third or junior high or something like that, but we were, but as far as education, my understanding is that it was always under Japanese government. So it was the Japanese, and then they enforced us to try to learn "proper" Japanese, without Okinawan accent. So that's when Okinawan, using Uchinaguchi was very much prohibited in school.

MN: Did students get in big trouble if they were found speaking Uchinaguchi?

AT: Yeah. They called, they have these plaque, it's a wooden plaque that somebody had written, and then they would pass that and then you'd have to carry that, you have to be holding that all day long, until you catch somebody using some phrase, and then you could pass on. But it wasn't, educationally you were reprimanded or anything like that. It was just to try to, not to speak Uchinaguchi in school.

MN: So this plaque was kind of, you're embarrassed if you have it.

AT: Right, right.

MN: Now, after the war, did your mother remember enough English to work with the U.S. military?

AT: No, no. She never worked with the military.

MN: What did she do after the war?

AT: She was teaching school, elementary school, so he became a teacher. And because at that time, many teachers were killed with their students, too. So those who had -- of course, there were some who had, went to teaching school, so they had their teaching credential to teach, but not enough teachers. So they had to recruit many who had, was educated without actual teaching credentials. So my mother was one of those that were teaching elementary school.

MN: And right after the war, what was your Oshiro grandfather doing?

AT: Well, he had lost, I mean, school was gone. He didn't have any teaching position or anything, so he was trying to farm, but he wasn't good at it. So he was, as much as my grandmother would force him to go and work in the field, but he did, he read a lot. So whatever he was -- 'cause his entire collection of the books were all gone, too, so he went through a slightly depression period. But, so he got into studying the religion, different religion, these people he would call and try to hear their lecture or things like that. And at times he thought, oh, maybe he'll try to get into politics, but no, he didn't do that. But eventually he was able to start teaching again.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: Now, because Okinawa was completely devastated from the war, you said you never saw a live animal until you were about four or five?

AT: Uh-huh.

MN: Can you tell us some of the first animals you saw and the reaction you had?

AT: I was shocked because I saw a cat that came, and so I, apparently I ran home and I told my mother, my family that, "There was this thing that came with the long," [indicates whiskers], "that went 'meow.'" You know, if there was any horse, I wouldn't move from that position. So they had to carry me home, and then they had to go and get whatever they were carrying. So the animal was very rare item that we were, we saw. Fish we saw a lot, but not those kind of animals.

MN: And then you said your sister went to see these donated pigs from Hawaii being unloaded off the ship?

AT: Uh-huh.

MN: Can you tell us what she told you about these donated pigs?

AT: Yeah. When Pigs from the Sea, that play was being presented here, so she went to see it, too. And then she was telling me, she said, "Yeah, I actually saw them unloading those pigs." And she said she was shocked because those were white pigs, and she said, "My gosh, American pigs are white like American people." Because we have black pigs. She said she'd never seen that color or that size. I think it wasn't that big, but she said it was much bigger than we had. So she said that was her impression, that she was just shocked to see pigs were same as the people. [Laughs]

MN: So I'm, people are donating livestock to Okinawa. Now, did everybody in the village receive pigs?

AT: I think, I think everybody who had pig sty or pigpen or whatever. 'Cause it's built in stone, covered area where you keep the pigs. Because the bigger the house, they would all, had the pig sty in the back. And I believe, because we had, and we had the pigs, so I think those people who had area to keep, I think, got the pigs. And of course, you know, some people took the pigs to breed, and that's how it spread. And then they would share that with somebody else. But I imagine the people who got it in the beginning are the ones that had the pig sty. They probably got two, maybe male and female, otherwise it would never... so I think, 'cause we did have. And, of course, if you're maybe once a year, twice a year, they would kill the pig, and whole village would share the, whatever. Okinawans, like Chinese, we ate every part of the pig. So everybody had a little bit of everything. And then they would preserve that in big vats with the salt, and you can preserve it for almost a year. So that's how they could, they would eat all year round. Of course, only, you get to eat only a special celebration, New Year, Obon, or weddings. Get maybe two pieces for each.

MN: So it sounds like it was, number one, rare to eat meat, and if you killed the livestock, it was a big deal. You had to share it with everybody.

AT: And cows, hardly ever. I think I've only seen, not in our village, but I've heard that when they kill, yeah, they had to share with our next village or whatever. And goats were more common. Yeah, goats were more common. But again, anything you kill at home, you shared with everybody.

MN: Who did the killing at your house?

AT: Nobody in our family. Somebody would come and do it. And they would do it very early in the morning so nobody would see it, especially the children. By the time we'd get up, it's all in pieces, so nobody would really see it.

MN: Now, your family had a mango tree, and probably the only mango tree around. Tell us the story.

AT: Well, this is from my grandmother. She said her older sister who had immigrated, I don't know how she got to Hawaii at that time, but when she visited, she brought mango seeds with her and then planted two mango trees in our yard. And my grandmother claims they're the only ones in that... and whatever that spread in Okinawa, she believes that's from our tree. [Laughs] I don't know how much is true. Now, Okinawan mangoes are very -- I mean, big business, and it's apparently the very, it's very expensive and very best. So in Japan, when you'd receive like, summertime is ochuugen, summer gift, it's a very precious gift. And my friend in Tokyo, she said, "Oh, yeah, they're very sweet." It's not that big, but it's very sweet and very expensive. Because she said she gave one to her friend, and her friend told her husband when she was going, business trip, to, "Make sure you bring mango home." Husband said, "They're so expensive that I couldn't bring home," or something like that. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: Now, when you were five years old, your mother decided to return to Hawaii. Why is that?

AT: Well, my grandparents actually are the ones that encouraged her to go, because they felt she might make a better life in Hawaii, and she might be able to, for her children, us, that, better education in Hawaii. Because, you know, to remarry in Japan, Japanese custom was very rare at that time, so they said, "Okay, you have your siblings in Hawaii, your family there, so try going to Hawaii. And if it's not what you want, then you can always come back." So she wasn't, but she didn't want to go by herself, so she took my sister. But my sister actually was too young to, for U.S. to permit, but she had her, she said her birth certificate had to be altered, that she was born a little earlier. So then she came on U.S. passport with my mother. So I was definitely from beginning, no.

MN: So if you, she altered her, the year that she was born, how was she able... can you explain that a little bit, how she was able to come here?

AT: Yeah, she said, "Well you go to yakuba." When you're born, you report to yakuba, you put your name and birth date in their document. Of course, that's all handwritten, so I think that's how... 'cause she was born in June of 1941, and they said you have to be born... so she had to alter six months earlier. So like end of '40, or something to do with the war, bombing was done in '41? Was it, Pearl Harbor was December, right? So you could not be in that year. It was, I don't remember, but it was something that you have to be a year before, something like that. And so she had to alter, and then she came on her... my mother had U.S. passport, so she came on her passport. But again, my, I have a friend who was born in Okinawa, and she and her sister both were born in Okinawa. But her, both parents were U.S. citizen, but then were like first ship that came out. And the whole family came, and she had, they had no problem. But I think her father was, had somehow with the U.S. government connection. But they were also in those repatriation act or whatever, that the U.S. granted the people with U.S. citizen the right to return to America. And so my mother was born, so she was one of those. And they were, they were some of her, a few of her high school classmates, that they were born in America and they were all, like, sent to Okinawa to go to school. They came, and I believe there were three or four ships. And my mother was second from the last ship, so I don't know if that's second or third ship that she came. And, but they were mostly, they were all to Hawaii. But, except for one... yeah, some people came to San Francisco, from Hawaii to San Francisco, but I don't know how that ship worked. But they were, that's how my mother and my sister came to Hawaii. And they lived in Kauai with the grandparents a little, and then my mother went to Honolulu to work. Not knowing the language, only job she could get was work as a maid, housework.

MN: Well, how did you feel about being left behind in Okinawa?

AT: I don't think I knew, you know, feel any lonely because I know they were gone, but I was with my grandparents, so I probably was more spoiled than missing. But there's a PTA where the parents, mother, you know, young mother comes, and I thought, "Oh, why do I have to be like old grandmother?" That's the kind of feeling. But other than that, I didn't really feel anything. They would get me a lot of magazines and things like that, and then my grandfather was able to read English. So he would translate a lot of those golden books that we had, Cinderella and those. So he would tell me all the, read me all these books telling me, tell the stories in Japanese. So, and so a lot of... I think a lot of those magazines might have been things that we picked up in U.S. dumps. [Laughs] 'Cause we did have, like, National Geographics and those children's books, U.S. books. And yeah, whatever books that we can find. And, of course, after, when we were going to school, lot of Japanese children's magazines were out. You know, they would buy 'em and those things. And that kept me... and then living in village with all your classmates, all neighborhood there, children are constantly playing with each other. So I think that, thought of being lonely.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: I wanted to ask a little bit about your village, about... were there live bombs on the beaches near your area?

AT: Yes. The beach, when we were going elementary school, the beach was just covered with rusted bomb remains. And so we were all prohibited to go to beach by ourselves, because, you know, you have to kind of step in white sand in between those bombs. But, of course, there's people that made big money picking those scraps. And after probably, yeah, within three, four or five years, the beach was just totally clean. But when I was second, third, I've lost two of my classmates from those live bombs, boys. I mean, they were always getting into mischief, and they kind of played around and they were both blown up.

MN: Now, you were just a child, but did you hear of people getting raped or committing suicide after the war?

AT: Rape I've heard, because, you know, I tried to listen to what... I couldn't put together, but then, you know, I kind of knew it was something bad. My grandparents, grandmother and them talking about some mother and child being attacked. And suicide, I've known this man... now I think of it, he might have been, yeah, some guilt he might have been carrying. But he came back from the war, and I don't remember being really, you know, injured, but I know he was going through depression. He used to drink a lot. And so he committed suicide, throwing himself off a cliff. And like some neighbor daughter either was sent to work in bar or prostitution, I don't know, but lot of 'em, they had, so they can support the family. Those I've heard.

MN: Can you share a little bit about this military town called, is it Koza?

AT: Koza.

MN: Koza.

AT: Yeah. It was called Koza, but now they, because of that military town image that remained, so after the reversion to Japan, that town changed to Naha City. No, Okinawa City. Okinawa City. But Koza town is very close to a base, Futenma base is also, was also close. But it was, so Koza town was really known as the, had a military bar area, lot of bars. But I've never... you know, of course, as kids, we weren't told to go there at all, but from my understanding, half of... there's a main center of the street, they call it juujiro, I guess it was nicely crossed like this. Koza Juujiro. And one side I heard was bars geared mostly to blacks, and the other side was white. So they had segregation among military within the base. And I don't know how they behaved in their base, but off base, that's what I heard. Now, that image is all gone, but that Naha City is known as a music town. So they have a lot of theaters, small theaters where they have live hip hop, rock band, in that town. So it's more geared to young people of military and Okinawans, and from Japanese tourists. So it's become very, very famous as far as that.

MN: But you mentioned, did you remember girls from Koza coming, visiting your village?

AT: Yeah, that time was, it was, of course, shortly after that. I guess my grandmother knew the family, the lady who, so-called, like, running a brothel. But she was, she was more or less helping the girls, type of thing. So it was, I didn't know that at all, but from what I can imagine from that time and them talking. But one time, Koza is, you have to go on bus from Chinen. It's far distance, it's more middle part of Okinawa island. And they came to our village, and like a picnic. So the lady was telling my grandmother, "I'm bringing them so that they can emotionally and just physically rest and enjoy their day." So that's... and then sort of the way they talk about what they, what this person was like, this man was like. So you know, from there, I kind of get the idea, oh, must be... but of course, now, those things doesn't exist. But I assume lot of them had that, too, especially to support their family, to feed them.

MN: Now, when your mother went to Hawaii, and also you had relatives in Hawaii, what kind of care packages did they send to Okinawa?

AT: Oh, lot of hand-me-downs and candies. I guess canned goods, too, they sent. But yeah, all the clothing we get -- this is from my relatives -- my grandmother would already separate, "This one should go to so and so, this one should go to so and so," and whatever I can wear, she would keep so I can wear it. And again, the candies, too, she would open a package and all separate. And so, "This is gonna go to them." And anytime somebody would come, and eventually we would be eating -- it was the Kisses, Kisses chocolate, were the most chocolate that they had sent, and it was much easier to eat. But we save it so preciously, sometimes it gets molded, and we still ate molded chocolate, mold and all. But so a couple years ago when I went to Okinawa, my classmates all said that they remember my grandmother because they all got candy from her. So every time they pass by or they stop by, that they would get candies. Which at that time was non-existent.

MN: Your grandmother was very generous.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: Now, she also got you started in dancing, because, is it because she thought you might be lonely?

AT: Well, my grandparents' intention was to keep me busy so that I don't get lonely. And I guess I liked the music and dance, because my friend's father, who lived next door neighbor, I would, every time he's playing, I would be hanging around their hedge and just listen to him as long, quite a long time. And they thought maybe they'll start me dancing, but of course there was no so-called teacher in our village, but there was this young lady who had experience in dancing, and they brought her and got me started at our house. And she was, she had a casualty from the war. She had no nose, so she always wore bandages. And my mother, I think my grandmother probably requested some bandage from Hawaii. So I remember when she got it, she would be taking to her, or she would get it from some friends that would take it to her so she can change as often as possible. And then, shortly after, there was next, our village sonchou's wife, was apparently working in the ryotei or had a little bit more formal dancing experience. So I started learning from her. But, of course, only opportunity we would get to dance was like parties, or they would have a, they would make a stage, each village would make a stage and they would have a full program during the Obon or something like that, so I would get to dance. But, you know, the costume and things that we would have is scrap from a U.S. military parachute or like gloves converted to tabi, and kimono was maybe somebody's kimono taken apart to make children's kimono. And fan was made from Christmas wrapping paper that we would find in the dump. And bamboo, we had a lot, so somebody would use bamboo screw, and they would glue fans. I wish I kept those, but probably with nori as actual nori, I think all the mouse and everything was probably all eaten, moth, everything was eaten up. [Laughs]

MN: Share with us, well, number one, what is the sanshin and how were people making sanshin after the war?

AT: Sanshin, actual sanshin is made out of snakeskin. And after the war, some of the men that was taken as refugee area, or some village, they would make sanshin with either wooden piece, piece of wood with can, tin can. Like Almond Roca sized can, and just use fishing string, rods, and bamboo, and very creative, and actually made the sound. And if you know how to play... right now, for nostalgic purpose, they do have that at souvenir stores. Now it's nicely colored, pink or yellow, but those were very unique, and I think that gave everybody joy and solace, too, after the war.

MN: What did you folks refer to this type of sanshin?

AT: Karakara sanshin. You know, karakara as the tin can making sound, karakara sanshin. That's what we referred to.

MN: And how, what's the difference between a sanshin and a shamisen?

AT: Shamisen, Japanese is catskin, and Okinawa is snakeskin. And I think the... Okinawa tuning is, I think, higher. Yeah, higher pitch. And Japanese use that bachi, shamoji-shaped, like this, Okinawa use this, like a nail extension, we call it tsume, it's like a tsume. They used to have, carve it out of ivory, but I don't think you can have ivory now, so ivory or they would be using goat's horn. In fact, I have that and I have the ivory one. Or now maybe the plastic mold might be... but it's something that you put on your finger and you pluck it with that. And Japanese one is with that, this kind of shape, almost like shamoji. Those are the... and I think Japanese shamisen is much longer and little bigger.

MN: And then you were talking about how you were, color your fingernails as girls. How did you do that?

AT: Yeah. We... there's a balsam flower that blossoms around, around now, almost Obon time. So you know, Obon season, we would have like tsunahiki, or, so everybody want to go and look best. So we would rub that, make it soft, and you put it on top of your fingers, and you leave it on like that. Or sometimes you rub that and mix it with shiquasa, a little lime, and then, and then put it on your finger. So that way, the color stays longer. So that's how we used to color. In fact, there's even a song about that. You use that to color your nail, but your parents' teaching is used to color your heart. They call it "Tinsagu no Hana."

MN: You know what's really amazing when I listen to you, is the war just happened, everything is devastated, and yet, people want to create art and perform. Where did people get this kind of energy?

AT: Well, because of war, they didn't have anything, no entertainment. I think, in fact, the people who were in this performing arts, they formed like a theatrical group. So they went from village to village, or they stayed in one area and they showcased maybe so many times a night, just to entertain the village people so that they would forget their suffering. It's something to calm themselves, and you know, so it was, it was on the part of these performance artists that used that as, to help people. So, in fact, the Majikina school that I'm studying, studied under, that Majikina, the father, Yuko Sensei, the headmaster, was one of those people who had that theater. And, of course, his daughters were all in dancing, so the family would be performing the whole theater. The dance, plus the kumiudui, doing plays, and all those whole evening's entertainment. And when my grandfather would take me to, and we would walk about an hour and then go. It's a Quonset building, or even just a tent that they have. And people, the tarp, those military tarps were there, and everybody just sat on the floor. And maybe stage was plywood just put together, and sometimes there's a hole all over the place, or, yeah, plywood probably from the ruin of homes or something like that, that was just put there. And you just sat there and just enjoyed, 'cause there's no, of course, no TV, no radio, and that was your whole entertainment. And like Obon season, each village would put their own show, where young people would do something special, they worked through whole year, and then they have like eisa, each village would have that. So there was, yeah, enough village entertainment to entertain people. And Okinawa especially, being in tropic island, it's hot, so evening was, yeah, cool, and that's when everybody would go and enjoy.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now, how many years later did you go to Hawaii? How old were you?

AT: I came when I was eleven, twelve, around that time. That was, yeah, my mother wanted me to come earlier, but then there was no permission granted to come. But finally, it was granted around six years later, so then I was able to come. But I came to Hawaii where my grandparents, Yabiku grandparents were, and my aunts and uncle. But my mother and sister had already moved to Los Angeles at that time, and, but I stayed in Hawaii for a few months, living with my aunt in Kauai, and went to school for about three months.

MN: Now, what kind of passport did you come with?

AT: I came on Ryukyu passport. It was issued by Ryukyu government under U.S. occupied.

MN: Now, once Okinawa reverted to Japan in 1972, do they still issue the Ryukyu passports?

AT: No.

MN: The Japanese passport?

AT: The Japanese passport.

MN: Now, when you received permission to travel to Hawaii, your grandmother went, your Oshiro grandmother went as far as Tokyo with you. Now, you had a Nisei uncle stationed in Tokyo from Hawaii. How did -- so since they were from Hawaii, how did they prepare you for your trip to Hawaii?

AT: Well, they just, yeah, they told me Hawaii is gonna be -- because it was winter in Tokyo, very cold, so they said, "Okay, it's gonna be much hotter in Hawaii." So Hawaii, it was, you know, "It's gonna be different from Japan and all that." But there wasn't too much that they had to really tell me about. But as far as English and anything like that, not that, nothing that they taught. So they encouraged, "You have to learn English right away to communicate with anybody." That was, yeah, my uncle, but actually, that's my mother's cousin, one and only cousin. [Laughs]

MN: You're traveling by yourself. Were you scared, were you excited? What were you feeling?

AT: I don't remember as being scared, but, yeah, half maybe excited. But I didn't think, I wasn't scared at all. But there was a lady who was going to Oklahoma, and my uncle had talked to her and to the airline, so they sat me right next to her. Because, and from there, I was on my own, but it was twenty hours, I remember. Ten hours, we fueled in Wake island, and my uncle told me, "Okay, when you reach Wake, there's a bus there and you'll be taken to this place and you'll have breakfast there." So bus was like a tram was waiting there. And we went to, in fact, that Wake island, that's about the building I remember had in that whole island. [Laughs] So we had breakfast there and then got on, and then another ten hours to Hawaii. And yeah, when we reached Hawaii, I thought, oh, it was beautiful. Because all the leis that I got, and as you drive out of airport, you see all these lei huts just lined, standing next to each other. And had, every place was lighted, so I was so excited. I was asking Uncle, so he said that was the place that you, they sell the leis. And then when I went to my uncle's place, they had all these food. I guess now, I think about it, it was Japanese American food, but it was something very new to me like potato salad and all those things.

MN: So you stayed in Honolulu for one night before going to Kauai with your, to be with your Yabiku grandparents. Now, on Kauai, were there a lot of Okinawans in the community?

AT: Yes, I think so. Yeah, our neighbor, there were a few, but yes, they did, because while I was there, was that the time... it might have been there. I remember dancing at some Okinawa shimnenkai.

MN: But not at that time.

AT: It might have been at that time, yeah. So that... of course, I had just came in, my grandmother, father was excited that I knew dancing, so was, yeah, someplace that I danced just to show them. So maybe it wasn't shinnenkai, maybe it was just a family gathering there.

MN: What was the dominant prefecture?

AT: I would think it's Hiroshima. Because at school when I was going there, there were Japanese kids, I mean, knew that I was, I had just come from Japan, and they tried to speak to me little Japanese, and I couldn't really understand them. So I went home and I asked my aunt and she said, "Okay, this is what that means." So I said, "Why is it different?" She said because they were mostly Hiroshima dialect. So I think in Hawaii there's, lot of Japanese are from Hiroshima. Hiroshima was dominant.

MN: Now, when you were living in Kauai, what did you feel about having come to Kauai?

AT: Oh, they have electricity. [Laughs] The stove, you don't have to use the wood to cook, and you have a bath, you can take a bath every day. Those daily, just routine was very special to me.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: Now you stayed in Kauai for three months and then you came, flew to LAX, and then you were reunited with your mother and sister. What was that like?

AT: In the beginning, it was a little strange, 'cause I hadn't seen Mother for a long time. So only way I remember was by pictures. But yeah, it was... my sister, as children we got close very fast, but with my mother, I kind of had to get used to it.

MN: Actually, I think I skipped a little. Can you explain to us why your mother was in southern California?

AT: Oh, okay. My mother was, the last job she had in Hawaii was she was working for a doctor's family, and she said it was in the Tantalus area of Honolulu. And the doctor's family was moving back to mainland, and they asked my mother, "If you would promise to work for us a year," that they will pay her and my sister's fare to California. So, and my, I know my mother had written to my grandparents consulting, and also my mother thought maybe education will be better if she moved to California. So they moved and they, the doctor lived in San Marino, so they worked for the family for a year in San Marino. And my sister went to school there, and she was the only non-white there. And, in fact, at that time, my sister was saying non-residents had to move, leave the town, leave the San Marino before sunset. So it was, yeah, very exclusive area. So after the year term was over, they moved to Los Angeles and they lived in an apartment I think around Second and... in Boyle Heights. Second and Pennsylvania, that area, Chicago.

MN: So while she was here, you were coming, trying to get to Hawaii. And so you didn't come at the same time.

AT: No, not at same time. So they, so after they moved to Boyle Heights area, and then, yeah, second apartment. I guess they were living in very small apartment, so I was coming, so they moved to another apartment, it was a back house where there were actual bedroom, one bedroom there. So that's where I came. And she, during that time, she was working at old Japanese hospital right in Boyle Heights.

MN: Now, when you arrived in Los Angeles, how much English did you speak?

AT: None. Maybe "thank you." [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 16>

MN: So when you started to attend school, how did that go? What grade did they place you in?

AT: I went to fifth grade, and so my sister was my coach, she was my instructor, so she would take me and introduce me to friends. So she tells me, "Okay, you say, 'Hi,' that's the way you're going to..." so, "Nice to meet you," or she would tell me what to say. So she said, "Not 'hai,' 'hi." So she was, she was my instructor, my teacher. And then at school, too, students would take time to teach me word by word.

MN: And you said they put you in fifth grade, but you were supposed to be in sixth grade?

AT: Sixth grade.

MN: Now, you have this unique experience of going to a private school, White Memorial Union School.

AT: Yes.

MN: Can you tell us a little bit about this?

AT: Yes. Well, my sister was already there, so it's a Seventh Day Adventist elementary school. And very small classes, class, and I guess my sister was also went to mission school in Hawaii. I know a lot of my friends who first came from Japan, they all went to that Hawaiian mission which is Seventh Day Adventist. And I think they have much more closer contact of teaching English. So anyway, yeah, we were, I went to White Memorial private school. And my mother was working, but there was some church member that had helped like giving scholarship for support, that supported us going through there. But it was small classes, the teachers and the students were very understanding and explained things. So I was able to understand and hear in about a year, and speaking and writing. Still need to learn. [Laughs] But communicating takes more time than listening.

MN: So you weren't teased.

AT: No... well, I was, accent, certain accent, I was teased. But that didn't shy me. I figured, okay, if I was teased, next time I can use the proper word or proper pronunciation.

MN: Now, were there a lot of Japanese, Okinawan Seventh Day Adventist members?

AT: Yes. Here, some, but yeah, they had a church in Okinawan, mission, Seventh Day Adventist church. See, their main thing is healthcare. They're very strong in healthcare, and, of course, diet and things like that. So in Okinawa, too, right now they have a big hospital there they geared to. So my grandmother in Okinawa became Seventh Day Adventist. So that's how. So we would be, we went to church, she would be going. Of course, my grandfather was more into philosophical ideas, so he never wanted to belong to any church. But this White Memorial elementary school probably was, helped me a lot.

MN: Did you go to church with your mother?

AT: Yes. Well, my sister, my mother worked at night, so it was my sister and I would go with the neighbor that would take us to church.

MN: Now, you transferred later to Hollenbeck junior high school, which is a public school. Why did you do that?

AT: Well, to go to junior high school in same school was, you had to travel to Lynnwood, and we had no way of going. Plus, I wanted to skip one year to be with my age group, and Hollenbeck, I was babysitting for this doctor's children, and I was telling her about this, so she said, "Oh, I'll help you." And so she called school and she told school, and school said, "Okay, if the grade and this and that meet, we'll do that." So she said, "Yeah, I talked to them, so go and see if you can sit in." So anyway, I was able to get into eighth or ninth. Ninth grade there.

MN: Just your age group.

AT: Right.

MN: And then from Hollenbeck you went to Roosevelt high.

AT: Roosevelt.

MN: Now Roosevelt, you had a best friend from, you made a best friend from Tokyo.

AT: Yeah, from Tokyo.

MN: Can you share with us how she reacted when she found out you were from Okinawa?

AT: Yeah, she was shocked. She said, yeah, we were talking, and she said she always talked about, she's from Tokyo, and she said she grew up in Karuizawa, which is a very exclusive resort area. So I said, "Oh, I'm from Okinawa." She said, "Okinawa?' she said, "I didn't know you spoke Japanese." I said, "We're Japanese." So she was very shocked. She said, "Oh, is that how Okinawans look?" So at that time, yeah, I guess lot of young people, Japanese thought Okinawan was some foreign country. In fact, they had to have a passport to go to Okinawa, and Okinawa to Japan, so maybe that's another reason. [Laughs]

MN: So her reaction you could say was very typical of a Japanese person?

AT: I guess so because I didn't... yeah. But it was surprising to me that she reacted that way. Because in elementary school, I did have friends from Japan, but they were from Osaka or some other prefecture. But yeah, she was from Tokyo, so she was, I don't know if they were more, not into inaka or something. [Laughs] But that was, I mean, shocking to me, but shocking to her.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: Now, in high school, you also met a lot of Sanseis who were born all over the United States, like Arkansas. What did you think about this?

AT: I was kind of surprised. I couldn't, I didn't know what that meant because, you know, I guess all my age they all, they were all born in camp, so they said, oh, they were born Arizona, they were born Arkansas, they were born... so I said, "You know, why all over the place?" Then, much later that they said, oh, they were born in camp, and I didn't know what that meant either. So to me, was it like a, those refugee camp like we had? But it was much later that I learned about camp and how the Japanese were all being put in there. That was, that was a, really a learning experience. But yeah, we had... at that time, Roosevelt had lot of Japanese, so lot of Sansei kids that I grew up with. So I had a normal high school, junior high, high school life as a regular Sansei.

MN: Now, somebody from Okinawa, later you learned more about the camps. And the more you learned about the camps, what did you think about what the United States government did to Japanese people here?

AT: I really wonder if that was really necessary, because there were... most of them didn't even know Japanese, right, and they don't know why they were doing it. And I really think that was, well, shameful for U.S. government to just, I mean, can you imagine if we did that now? But, you know, as Japanese, more obedient, if they were told, "You do this," they'll follow. And I think that in itself, they just followed what to do.

MN: Now, I know your mother worked during the nighttime, she worked at the Japanese Hospital.

AT: Hospital.

MN: And on weekends, you helped your mother do, clean other people's houses?

AT: Yeah. And, oh, well, we began by babysitting. My mother was doing the housecleaning, housework, ironing, so we would help her with ironing and babysitting or whatever, as the kids, that we can help. So it was, yeah, all three of us going, helping my mother do the extra job that she was doing.

MN: Now, what about your social life? Were you able to have a social life, or were you working all the time?

AT: No, I did have social life. During high school, well, we were in like junior high, high school, church youth group that we would go camping during summertime, things like that. And in high school, of course, my sister and I, we started working after school or weekends. But you know, it's all during daytime, so nighttime, we can go to dances, parties, things like that. But weeknights, too, we worked at library three times a week. So anything to help. Because that was our, whatever spending money we needed, we had to work for it.

MN: Now, you mentioned you went to parties, dance parties. Did you ever feel discriminated at any of these parties because you were Okinawa?

AT: No. You know, I mean, well, my school friends, Sansei friends, they didn't know any difference. But then Japanese group friends from Japan, they would have dances that I would go. But yeah, one time, this was only once that I had experience, was that this guy that, yeah, he asked me to dance a couple times, and then I guess around time he asked me where I was from, I said, "Okinawa," and he said, "Oh," and he kind of had a... and that was it. So I thought, "What is that?" So I never saw him or talked to him again. So that was the only thing. I don't know what part of Japan he was from, but definitely not from Okinawa. Yeah, that was the only reaction.

MN: Now, what year did you graduate from Roosevelt high?

AT: '61.

<Begin Segment 18>

MN: I want to ask you a little bit about the Okinawa Kenjinkai. How involved was your mother with the Okinawa Kenjinkai?

AT: My mother was very much involved, and she helped with the board and she helped with the Fujinkai. She, there was a lady before her who was the Fujinkai president, but she took over and she was president for about ten years. Then she helped develop the Fujinkai a lot. And so, you know, we, kenjinkai, too, in turn, helped us. Because if we needed manpower, there's always volunteer and came and helped us. So my sister and I, we practically grew up with kenjinkai. So they were a big help to us, so we tried to help as much as... of course, those people that used to come and help us, they're mostly gone, but yeah, that's the remembrance that we have as kenjinkai.

MN: So the kenjinkai was a big part of your family life.

AT: Yes, yes.

MN: You know, the Okinawa Kenjinkai is very unique, because right after the war, they had like the Zaibei Okinawa Fukou Renmei, that sent care packages to Okinawa. Was your village recipient of that?

AT: I don't know if from U.S. here, kenjinkai, but I know we had from Hawaii. Hawaii also had those care packages, and that's because, I don't know if there was anybody from our part of village here. So I think that mostly people who, from certain village, they might have sent to their villages to help. And it would come, not individual, but it would come to the, like, a village hall or something like that, addressed to, and in our case. And then they would open up huge packages, and then again, they would distribute to the family members. And those packages included adult's clothes, men's clothes and those things. I think for us, probably Hawaii clothing was more compatible to Okinawan lifestyle, because more of a lighter summer clothes, those things. So they really helped Okinawa people since shortly after the war. So Okinawa government, to reciprocate that, they've helped like, when Hawaii built a community center, government helped, to thank the people, what they did during the war.

MN: Now, what were the Okinawa Kenjinkai picnics like?

AT: Oh. Before, oh, it was a huge family affair. We used to have it at the Elysian park. I mean, this is after, it was going on from before, but so like our part as the children was, main help was at the picnic time, or, well, shinnenkai was as we got older. But because I was dancing, so as a part of entertainment, we always participated in picnic and shinnenkai. And picnic was, you know, you would, the parents, mothers, would be cooking from night before, bento, big bento, enough to feed whole army. [Laughs] And they'll take it, and everybody has goza all next to each other, everybody's sharing their food. I mean, it was, it was a big deal. And the carpenters, members who were carpenters, they would go from five o'clock in the morning and build stages. And the person who's in charge of the drinks get a big tarai, all that tarai lined up with ice and water. So you have to make sure that each one, only one, so that they don't come back, everybody would have it. So it was, yeah, it was actual stage and dressing area in the back, covered, and the musician area on the side. So they all built that on that morning, and then take down in the afternoon. So, you know, after those people that's able to do that, we just, the young people just couldn't keep doing that. But the past two years, we've been having those mobile stages that we borrow, and do it at the Legg Lake Whittier Narrows park now. And Elysian park, for the parking, you have to park all on the street, and the children had, all the children had their games in the back. So it was, the little kids that went there, they still remember that as an adult, that's what they remember. So they write to OAA, "Why can't we have those kind of picnic?" So we have to explain to them, 'There's nobody to build stage, there's nobody to go and work from that time." If you want that, come and volunteer." So we've been pretty successful for the past few years. Yeah, those were the times that, mainly, that I would get involved in that OAA function.

MN: Do you think the fact that Okinawa was so devastated during the war, do you think it tightened the community here, also?

AT: I think, I think so. And then, and also, they were so far away from main Japan, so that in itself, I think, if you look at the name, "Oh, you're from Okinawa?" "You're not from Okinawa?" "You're Okinawan?" You recognize right away. So I think those two is the name. And then Okinawan music and dance in itself, again, is a little different from Japan. So I think that plays a part of, yeah, cohesiveness of the community.

MN: Now, is it because of your involvement with the kenjinkai that you started to continue in your dancing?

AT: No, not really with the community, but my interest became more deeper because, again, here they didn't have any formal teacher, so I thought, "Oh, since I've started, why don't I continue?" So I just took that opportunity to go. But again, the community itself, music, sanshin group, they helped me. Like when I was in high school, they would all pitch in to send me to Hawaii and so I can learn, and, of course, I have to come back and show them what I've done and commit myself to perform and things like that. So they definitely was my big backup.

MN: So it was a give and take. They were able to fund your studies in Hawaii, and then in turn, you would return and you would teach here.

AT: Yeah. And then after that, I would do on my own to, like, go to Okinawa and so that I can properly attain the teaching credential.

MN: Let me go back a little bit. Now, you graduated high school 1961, and then right after high school, what did you do?

AT: I started working. 'Cause I started working to help the family, and went to night school.

MN: And then you quit after one year. You had this full-time job, you were probably making good money.

AT: No. [Laughs]

MN: [Laughs] Okay. But why did you quit?

AT: Well, I quit because... maybe I wanted to get out, out of the... so anyway, I had enough that I've saved, half went to home, enough that I can support myself for one year. So I thought, "Oh, if I'm gonna further my dance," I wanted to do it now. So I wanted to get away, too, I think. So that's when I just took off one year and went to Okinawa and stayed there a whole year to dance, formally work with the headmaster, the teacher that I started with in Hawaii, her father was the headmaster, and she even encouraged me, she said, "You know, you should go to Okinawa and study with my father." So there were two teachers, another daughter who was teaching, and then the headmaster that I studied with. So it was, yeah, it was full-time during the dance, every day.

MN: So you actually really have a passion for dancing. You never gave it up since you left Okinawa.

AT: No, I haven't.

MN: And you came here and then the summertime you were learning in Hawaii? And then you graduated and then...

AT: Soon as I got freedom, I took off. [Laughs]

MN: For Okinawa.

<Begin Segment 19>

MN: What year did you go to Okinawa to learn dancing?

AT: '63. 'Cause, yeah, the year Kennedy was assassinated.

MN: Was it very difficult for you to adjust back to Okinawan life?

AT: I stayed with my mother's friend, who was married to a retired military person. So the house was just like an American home. So as part of that, as far as daily life, I didn't have any difficulty. But yeah, I had to commute by bus to Naha studio, and yeah, Okinawa at that time was still developing at the time, in the '60s. But it was in U.S. dollar, that's why I took that opportunity. Because it was dollar, people were getting paid, if you had about thirty-five dollars a month, or forty dollars a month pay, you were in good, had a good pay. So if I didn't take that opportunity, I would have never been able to.

MN: I know in the '60s, I think one dollar was like 365 yen?

AT: Yes.

MN: Is that the same conversion Okinawa?

AT: Yes. But we weren't, we didn't have a yen, we had a U.S. dollar. U.S. dollars. So people were, if you were making thirty, forty dollars a month salary, you were pretty good. So that's why what I had, maybe about a year, I saved less than two thousand and pay my airfare, and I was able to stay there for a month. Not month, a year. So, of course, at the end I was running out, so I had to go to my father's side grandmother. And fortunate that I, they had saved up some of my father's, like, pension money from military pension, so that was able to help me. Yeah, otherwise I would have never been able to do that. So it was just a opportunity that I had to get myself out and be free.

MN: Now, were you learning odori full time, or were you learning other art forms?

AT: Odori was full time, but then there was some time available, so I learned sanshin, which I'm not very good, and forgot most of them. And then ocha, tea ceremony. Because my sensei's neighbor was a doctor's clinic, and doctor's wife had the tea ceremony class. And my sensei was also taking some with her, took the tea ceremony.

MN: And then the tea ceremony was this omotesenke or...

AT: Urasenke.

MN: Urasenke.

AT: 'Cause I was doing urasenke when I left here, so I just continued on. I think that was far as I got. I just went to shomenkyo and never passed that. But I like tea ceremony. It's a sense of relaxation.

<Begin Segment 20>

MN: Now, after you returned to the U.S. in 1964?

AT: Yes.

MN: What did you do?

AT: I went back to school. But again, this time I went full time, I mean, daytime, full time, and then I worked part time. And I went back to the old company to work, because I saw one of the boss there, and he told me, "Okay, come back from tomorrow." But I said, "No, no, I'm going back to school." But I was fortunate in that they, I was able to work there. So I went back to school. But, and then at certain period, I had to work full time, too, so my education really took a long time to finish. [Laughs]

MN: And then in between you also got married.

AT: Yes.

MN: How did you meet your husband?

AT: One of those high school, that Japanese student gathering or something. So I knew, one of my friend had introduced us.

MN: Now, what prefecture is your husband from?

AT: He's from Kagoshima. But again, he's in same situation as me. His mother was born in the Imperial Valley, and they're one of the rare family that actually made it here and moved back to Japan. So apparently they had a big farm in Imperial Valley, and all the children, they had four, four children. I think three were born, two or three were born there. And so they moved back to Kagoshima, and his mother was oldest daughter, and she married my father-in-law. And then shortly after they married, they went to Manchuria. So that's where he was born. And then after the war, from Manchuria they came. And then parents divorced, and mother came here. Mother came here, and at that time, I think he called my husband and came here. In fact, he came here in high school, so he hadn't finished his high school in Japan.

MN: So his family didn't have any problem of him marrying an Okinawa person?

AT: No, I don't think so. I never had anything, coolness from them.

<Begin Segment 21>

MN: Now, I know you, did you start teaching from 1966, dancing?

AT: Yes. Well, actually, right after I came back, '64, '65, yeah. Yeah, when I was living with my mother, we used to move all the living room furniture and stage it in that.

MN: Now, how did you get students? Did you advertise?

AT: No, not really. From word of mouth, and there were a lot of Okinawa -- most of the students were from Hawaii, so they had exposure. You know how Hawaii was more into Okinawan culture, so that's how.

MN: So you were working full time and then teaching dancing at night?

AT: Night, yeah. Or sometimes, some weekend morning, Sunday morning.

MN: Now, in southern California, how many Okinawa dance teachers are there?

AT: There's four schools here, and they have their kyoushi, us teachers there. So actually, the four different schools, Okinawan schools of dance are here in California. And that's including, yeah, from here to San Diego.

MN: And you are with the Majikina school?

AT: Majikina Honryu, yes.

MN: So your dance name is?

AT: Majikina Aiko.

<Begin Segment 22>

MN: I wanted to ask a little broader question about how did you and your family feel about the treatment of the Okinawa people by the Japanese during the war?

AT: Actually, we didn't have too much negative during the war. But because Japanese were fortunate, they were more kind to us or my grandparents as remember, they even gave us some fabrics. And I don't know, come to think of it, I don't know why they had those fabrics. It was a bright silk rose. And in fact, it was enough to make kimono for my sister and I. So it was a yellow kimono with a big red, maybe it was like a hinomaru, but it was a, yeah. They must have -- I don't know why they brought it -- they had it. Because I remember my mother bringing it home, this was from Japanese soldiers. So because we didn't really see them being any harsh to Okinawan, I don't think, I don't remember having... I remember my grandparents talking about, talking to these Japanese military people, that they had talked about their families, that they have children like these at home or something like that. So directly, we didn't have any bad feelings.

MN: But the Shouwa Tennou could not...

AT: Oh, no. And my sister was so upset about Tojo, so she was always, "Why does he have to live?" And Shouwa Tennou couldn't come to Okinawa because whole Okinawa was just... they know they were being used as, to divert the whole war to Okinawa. So it was sacrificial lamb.

MN: Did he ever visit Okinawa before he died? Shouwa Tennou? Did he ever come to Okinawa? Was he able to come to Okinawa?

AT: No, he never did. It was never, never... Okinawa. In fact, in fact, I think current Tennou came when he was kotaishi. And I know they had a big, big protest, and I believe, I believe he came when, yeah, kotaishi. That I cannot be sure, but I know they only made one visit there. Tennou definitely was not.

MN: Now, recently, prime minister of Japan, Hatoyama, he had to resign because he broke the promise to the Okinawa people regarding the U.S. military bases. What are your thoughts about the U.S. military bases, their expansion? Do you think Honshu should carry more of the burden, or what are your thoughts?

AT: I definitely feel that Honshu should. Because, and it's, they've been there too long. It's after the war, this long, and why such a presence, big presence of U.S. military in Okinawa? Well, I know U.S. don't want to, with, especially with Korean conflict over there, they don't want to let it go. But I really think that they have the best part of Okinawa as their base, and it's time to leave or minimize it or use more or Honshu area. That's, that's my strong feeling. Because they do have jobs, but my understanding is it's not that significantly huge amount that Okinawa job will lose. But I know there is a lot of opposition in Okinawa also because their income of the property, rent, are coming. But again, that comes from Japanese government. It's not the military, U.S. government, Japanese government are the ones that paying that. And that's a big chunk of income that those landowners hold. So that's another opposition in itself, conflict develops in Okinawa.

<Begin Segment 23>

MN: Now, last year the Okinawa Kenjinkai, the OAA, had their 100th anniversary. What do you think is the future of the Okinawa Association of America for the next 100 years here?

AT: Yeah, we need to -- well, you know, we do have younger generation, and that's because I think we've, like all the kenjinkai does have that problem of having the younger people. But what we did was we switched mostly to English rather than staying with all the Japanese, 'cause that's where, harder for the... so our meetings are mostly conducted in English, and we do have English. And we have, we're fortunate that we have our own building and we have our own office there, and the full-time worker, full or semi-full-time worker there who is totally bilingual, and communication. Our minutes, everything is all in English, so that helps. But yet, because everybody's scattered all over the place, and hard to bring in the younger generation. So hopefully it will carry on in some way, but again, I mean, I'm not young, but I'm part of younger generation that ourselves, we have to let our kids learn more and then grandchildren. Yeah, my daughter is involved in the scholarship committee, but that's about the extent she'll go. You know, when they need help, they'll try to go and help. But if you have younger children, it's hard to give full-time to help. So that, trying to sustain until they're free to help is the key point that I think we need to work on. So I hope you'll carry on.

MN: Well, what about your dance, you know, groups? Is there interest as there was before?

AT: Yeah, but that, too, is getting harder to get younger. Because younger children themselves are quite busy. Now, there are so many activities going, and, you know, once they start going to college then they get involved. But I do have kids that come back, and, or if they want to perform for their grandparents or if they want to perform for their wedding or something, they do come back. But continual learning is getting hard after high school. So have to get younger kids. But their parents themselves are so busy, and the kids are involved with sports and other activities, so that's... so once a year, shinnenkai or picnic are the only times that we really get everybody together. But taiko group is going pretty well, but there are lots of younger South American family are the ones that's really into it now. So we do have big Peruvian, Bolivian, Argentinian families, the younger group that's, are here. So they're bringing their children, so hopefully, that's why we have to have a trilingual at our functions. [Laughs] Adding salsa in there with eisa and taiko, everything. In some ways, it continues. South America is pretty good. They have, you know, big, even this taiko, Matsuri Taiko groups are, members are in hundred. And that's so hard to do for here. But hopefully it'll continue.

MN: You had a lot of representation from South America at your 100th anniversary. I was really surprised. Very strong. It seems the Okinawa community globally is very strong.

AT: Right, right. Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of the music, dance, and food, just have andagi and those Okinawa food, that really... I used to know, I mean, I know this professor, he was at Washington, D.C., Dr. Garfias. He's at Irvine now, but he said, "Oh, yeah, Okinawa people. If there's ten people that you have friends in anywhere in the world, they'll form a kenjinkai. So you know, they find some common sharing that they can do." So hopefully, yeah, South America just keeps on going. And yeah, I think they're... Yonsei, I don't know if they got into Gosei, but Sansei, Yonsei. Because Nisei are still young, South Americans.

MN: Well, I've asked all my questions, and thank you.

AT: Thank you.

MN: Is there anything you want to add that I didn't ask you?

AT: No, I think pretty much covered. Thank you for, I mean, this privilege, able to talk.

MN: Oh, no, thank you. I appreciate it.