<Begin Segment 6>

JG: Well, it's interesting because one of the things that I'm taking away from this line of conversation is just your own kind of awakening... you had mentioned how the different things that were taking place in Crenshaw kind of heightened your sensitivity to race, for example. And just to take a step back from that, I mean, you're growing up in a time when United States is embroiled in kind of, you know, the culture wars, if you want to call them that. Vietnam is taking place, you have the civil rights movement, the rise of black power, yellow power, brown power, and I'm just, I'd like to get a sense of your own kind of political awakening. And maybe to take a step back, you had mentioned Vietnam and its impact on you, and I'm wondering if you might talk a little bit more about that, because I'm interested in, specifically, how did these relatives, you talk about your brother... no, not your brother-in-law, your cousin's husband, okay. My mind is not as supple as it once was, clearly. But you talk about your cousin's husband telling you these stories, and I'm just wondering if you could talk about what your understanding was of Vietnam and how that influenced your own kind of development.

MN: Sure. Let me put that relative off to the side for a second by kind of backing up a little bit. I'll share some other experiences I had back then that really were the first formative influences on my thinking about Vietnam. First of all, I have to say, one of the earliest influences on Vietnam was Muhammad Ali, the boxer. People often ask me, "Mark, where did you learn public speaking?" I tell them I learned it from Muhammad Ali, watching him on Wide World of Sports every Saturday, 'cause this is when he was going up, coming up the ranks as a boxer, but also he was heavily embroiled in the civil rights movement from the standpoint that he had changed his name from Cassius Clay, what he called his slave name, to Muhammad Ali, the iconic figure of Islam. But one of my earliest awakenings, in terms of my consciousness about Vietnam, was when he made the remark, when he refused to apply for the draft, and his comment was, "I ain't got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. They ain't never done anything to me. Why should I go over there and kill them?" And that really hit, as simple, not simplistic, but as simple as that logic was, it really hit home to me. And on top of that, when I thought about the fact that the army had said that even if he did enlist they wouldn't send him to the front, that they would just use him to go around doing boxing exhibitions, which I think was a lie, really, even when they said that, I thought to myself... I was naive enough to think from the standpoint that, God, the guy wouldn't go over there risking his life. He'd just have to do boxing exhibitions. Why doesn't he just go do that and stop all this ruckus, especially when he was banned from boxing for, what, five years or however it was, which was arguably the best years of a boxer's life, in terms of the age that he was at that time. The fact that he was willing to risk all that for his convictions, as a Muslim, as a humanitarian, but as one who was just opposed to war, really hit home to me. And so I honestly tell people that. That's the influence that Muhammad Ali had on me when he was coming up as a boxer.

Another experience I had really was in a way a benign experience but something that really hit home with me in an equally powerful way. A cousin of mine had gotten married back around 1973, '74. I think I was either still in high school or first year in college. But another relative of ours on that side of the family who had gotten accepted to Annapolis, the naval academy, had come, was able to leave Annapolis and come home and attend the wedding, and in fact, he sat at our table during the reception. And during the reception, during the lunch, we started talking about Vietnam, and I had voiced somewhat facetiously that, hey, maybe I'll enlist in Vietnam. Then I could have the army pay for my college. Assuming I survive, have the army pay for my college on the GI bill when I get out. And my cousin Jerry said to me at that time, says, "Mark, don't enlist for the draft." I said, "Well, why not? Look at you. You're in Annapolis. I mean, you've got it made." And he said, "Don't enlist for the draft." He said it's terrible and he says, "I'm telling you as one who's at the naval academy. You just don't want to do it. Even though I'm at the naval academy, there are certain members of my class besides me who aren't like a lot of other folks." And I didn't realize what he meant at that time, but now with hindsight I understand what he meant. "But they treat us like dogs and they treat us like we're below grade, so if that's happening to guys like me in Annapolis, just think how it's gonna happen to guys like you who are on the front lines. So don't enlist." And I just said okay.

JG: Because he was Asian American?

MN: I'm sure that's what he meant, right. And my cousin Jerry, he was an older Sansei, graduated high school back in the '60s, '61, '62 era. I've always thought of that era of Sanseis, the older Sanseis, I call that era the Kennedy Peace Corps generation. They were the ones who were very patriotic, pro-Kennedy, went into the Peace Corps, did good things like that. And unlike my generation of Sanseis who came of age during the late '60s, early '70s, we were very cynical about, not just Vietnam but a lot of things happening with the government, but... so here's my cousin who's this patriotic, Peace Corps Kennedy type who's telling me not to enlist, and here he is in Annapolis. And that really made me think hard about that. That also had a shape, shaping influence on my attitudes towards Vietnam, and really towards government in general. Now, getting to my cousin's husband, who was actually in the Air Force, in a way he was similar. My cousin's husband got drafted during the late, mid to late '60s, but being a black belt in judo and being, having moved up the ranks in judo, he actually was good enough to make the armed forces judo team, and so he did. He was actually the number two man on the armed forces judo team, and he did spend most of his time in Vietnam going around doing judo tournaments and exhibitions for the GIs and also competing against some of the armed forces teams from other countries, but he did experience the front lines every now and then. But it wasn't like they put a rifle in his hand and sent him into the foxholes. It wasn't like that. However, there were times when he would come home on furloughs and tell us things about the war that you just didn't read in the papers or hear on the radio or on TV at that time. He would say, though, what the public did know, that there were certain rules of engagement that the U.S. were bound by that really limited the U.S. Army and Air Force and Marines and so on and so forth from really being effective, and one of those rules was the no fly zone that the U.S. Air Force -- him being in the Air Force, knew this -- were not allowed to fly into when, at the same time, North Vietnamese fighters were allowed to encroach on the South Vietnamese air space and come into South Vietnamese zones, which made no sense at all and really tied the U.S. Army, U.S. efforts' hands behind our backs. He would mention things like that, and it's one thing to read about these things in the paper, but to hear someone from the front or someone who was over there really talking about it and, and mentioning the effects that it was having, really reinforced, not just the stupidity of the war in general, but the stupidity that the U.S. government had in agreeing to these types of rules that really handicapped our war efforts in the first place. He would also tell us stories of things that happened personally to him. Told a story one time where he volunteered for helicopter duty twice. The first time, after volunteering he came down sick and couldn't go on the mission. The second time he volunteered he got into an argument with his commanding officer and his commanding officer punished him by giving him latrine duty that day, so he couldn't make the mission then. But what happened was the first helicopter that went up got shot down by a North Vietnamese helicopter, or fighter jet. The second helicopter that went up got shot down by mistaken identity by another American helicopter, so after that he never volunteered again, and that taught him never volunteer for anything so long as he's in the army, or as long as he's in the armed forces. And gosh, you hear stories like that, it makes you really think twice about the role of luck and fate in one's life.

JG: Did you, can you recall any conversations taking place within your immediate family about the war? I mean, did your parents talk about this with you and your siblings, or do you have any memories or recollections of that?

MN: I don't, I honestly don't recall them saying too much about the war. Again, I was about, when our involvement, when the U.S. involvement in Vietnam really started to escalate, I was all of, what, ten or eleven years old, so I was well outside of draft age, so I guess, in an immediate level, they didn't worry. Now, when I was in high school at that time, we did have to register for the draft, so I did go down and register for the draft. But they weren't too concerned about it because I had mentioned to them that my number, because the draft back then really was more of a lottery that we registered for, my number, my birthday was so far down the list, and also, on top of that, the U.S. had really started to talk about deescalating in Vietnam. I think those two factors really didn't make me too worried about it, and also didn't make them too much worried about it, either. So that's why I don't remember them saying too much about Vietnam.

JG: Would you have gone?

MN: I'll tell you, I don't know. I think ultimately I may have gone, but I was honestly at that time thinking about packin' a bag and goin' up to Canada, which was what everybody was thinkin' of doing and some folks did. It's one of those questions I'll never have to answer, but that was difficult decision for me. On the one hand, it was a personal decision that I would've had to make. On the other hand, I kept asking myself, gosh, do I really have the guts to do something like that? There was this part of me that was the traditional, good, loyal, obedient eldest son in a Japanese American family that didn't want to bring shame on my family, so there was that factor weighing on me as well at the same time. But honestly, I don't know. It's one of those questions I'll never have to answer and that never will be answered. But it did cross my mind. It really did. Fortunately, I didn't have to answer it.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.