Densho Digital Archive - Haruye Murakami Hagiwara Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So the way I start this is just the date and where we are, so today's Thursday, June 10, 2010. We're at the Hilo Hawaiian, and in the room we have several people. We have your sister, Mrs. Tanimoto, and your niece, Carol Ikeda. On the camera we have Dana Hoshide, and I'm the interviewer Tom Ikeda. So Mrs. Hagiwara, thank you for joining us. So let me just start at the beginning. Can you tell me where and when you were born?

HH: I was born in Hilo, Hawaii.

TI: And what was your birthdate?

HH: March 25, 1928.

TI: And do you know where you were born? Were you born...

HH: Oh, right at, on Kilauea Avenue in town, Hilo, Hawaii.

TI: So was this by a midwife?

HH: Midwife, I think.

TI: So was that pretty common, to be born by midwife?

HH: At that time, yeah.

TI: By any chance, do you know the name of the midwife?

HH: I did, but I can't remember. She's gone, but she did most of the townspeople, I think.

TI: Okay, good. So let's, let me start with your father. Can you tell me your father's name?

HH: Minoru Murakami.

TI: And do you know what part of Japan, where he came from?

HH: Yamaguchi. Iwakuni? He came from Yamaguchi, Iwakuni?

Off-camera voice: Yamaguchi, Hashirano.

HH: Oh, Hashirano.

TI: And do you know what kind of work or business his family did in Japan?

HH: I read someplace where the mother's family had a lumberyard. He was, you know, a schoolboy, while he was in Japan. His father had immigrated to Hawaii, so he was left with his mother's parents, but in the meantime the father passed away because Hawaii had an epidemic or something, so he never saw his father.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And so why did your father come to --

HH: Hawaii. Okay, the mother had remarried and they had immigrated to Hawaii, her, she and her husband. And in order to meet the deadline for immigration, she had to bring him over before he was eighteen. So he had, he dropped out of school to meet the deadline and he had, his uncle came to Hawaii to join the mother.

TI: And about how old was he?

HH: Eighteen.

TI: Okay, so right at that deadline. I see.

HH: Yeah. Probably just before deadline, they made it.

TI: So, eighteen years old, what did he do in Hawaii?

HH: He, well, what he did was when he came they were in Kohala, which is very rural, and when he went he saw that there was nothing he could do. Otherwise he would have to work in the cane field. So he left and went to Honolulu, went to night school, learned enough English so he could get a waiter's job, and then went to school at night to learn English.

TI: Then when he was finished with English school and got the waiter job, how, do you know how long he did that?

HH: No, I don't. Short while, though. He met my mother and they, they eloped. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so let's talk about, I was going to ask, so first, what was your mother's name?

HH: Hana Matsuda.

TI: And do you know what part of Japan she was from?

HH: She was Yamaguchi also.

TI: And so she met your father in Honolulu.

HH: At the night school.

TI: So how did she come, or why did she come to...

HH: Her parents were already here, and then... the mother had just given birth to a child, so she wanted -- my mother was only fourteen or fifteen -- to come and help with the care of that child.

TI: So you mentioned she was going to night school, and that's where she met your father. So can you tell me a little bit about what your mother was like? You know, personality wise, how would you describe her?

HH: She was kind of quiet, pleasant, very caring.

TI: And how about your father? What was he like?

HH: Oh, he was, he was, I wouldn't know how to describe, but he was outgoing and he could speak well, he was smart, and he could do a lot of impromptu speeches, so he was, while he was working, was asked to do a lot of speeches.

TI: Okay, good. So you mentioned your mother and father met in night school. Then you mentioned they eloped?

HH: Yeah.

TI: Tell me about that. What happened?

HH: They, well they were of age, so they eloped to Kona, got married and moved to Hilo, so they wouldn't be bothered with the family.

[Interruption]

TI: And just for clarification, another niece joined us, Gwen, so she's in the room also. So I just asked you about your parents eloping, and you mentioned how they went to Kona and then to Hilo. What was the reaction of the families when they eloped?

HH: Oh, I don't know.

TI: So your father --

HH: Oh, no, I think there were, I don't know if you can say... they were upset. But the father came over to see, to check on his daughter, and he came and he met them and he approved.

TI: Okay, so initially they, 'cause I'm just thinking, wow, they, they left Oahu, they went to Kona, then Hilo. It's almost like they were trying to get away from the family.

HH: Oh, yeah, the family, yeah. But the father came and checked on her and did give his approval.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Now why did they choose Hilo?

HH: I don't know. I think it was because it was far, far from all the... [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, probably.

HH: It's not that easy to travel during that time.

TI: And so what did he do when he got to Hilo?

HH: I think he did sales work. You know, take grocery orders around the island and stuff, did all that until he got hired by Nippu Jiji, because he knew the guy and the guy hired him.

TI: Do you know about what year he came to Hilo?

HH: I don't know. Let's see, she was eighteen. I don't know how old...

TI: Okay, well maybe we'll, it'll come up in the next interview. So he started working for the Nippu Jiji. What did he do with them?

HH: Well, he solicited subscription for the bilingual newspaper, and those newspapers, they subscribe for a year, the whole year, not month to month, for the whole island, so it's quite a job to go and get subscription. Then you have to follow up and collect a fee, and you need to have enough advertisement and things of that sort, so that the thing would be economically feasible.

TI: Oh, so he covered the whole island.

HH: Whole island.

TI: So he would travel on the Kona side and do this. How about delivery of the newspapers? How did they deliver?

HH: I think by mail.

TI: Okay, so he didn't have to worry about that. He just had to get the subscriptions and, you mentioned, advertising. How about news? Did he ever cover the news?

HH: News, too, yeah. So he was a newsman, collector and subscriber.

TI: And so your father must have been a pretty good writer for him to also be a news writer.

HH: Oh, yes. Yes.

TI: And do you recall what kind of news articles he wrote?

HH: Oh, no. I wasn't even born. [Laughs]

TI: So this, but this would be general news, like things happening on the Big Island.

HH: Whatever happened he, he submitted.

Off-camera voice: He's right there. We were right there.

TI: And then that way, then the people on Oahu and everything would know what's happening on the Big Island.

HH: Yeah.

TI: Okay, so it was an important job.

HH: Yeah, because that newspaper covered all islands.

TI: And when your father was doing that, what was your mother doing?

HH: She was housewife. We had eight children.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, so let's talk about that. Can you describe all the children, like... we'll start from the oldest and we'll just kind of describe each one.

HH: She's the first. [Referring to sister]

TI: Okay, so that's...

HH: Kazue.

TI: And then who was second?

HH: Miyoko, another female. And then Tsuyuno, and then came --

TI: Can you spell that?

HH: T-S-U-Y-U-N-O.

TI: Okay.

HH: And then Etsuro, the first son. And then came Masaye, then me.

TI: Okay, so you were one, two, three, four, five, six?

HH: Yeah. I'm the last girl. Then my brother, Katsusuke, and then the last one, Keishi.

TI: Good, okay. So big family.

HH: Oh, yeah. Those days everybody big.

TI: Why was that? Why was it big families during that time?

HH: You don't have the knowledge you have today. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so child, or birth control.

HH: That's right.

TI: I see.

HH: They all were about eight, nine. Most families.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: And so let's talk about growing up in Hilo. What are some of the early memories that you have, growing up in Hilo as a young girl? What are, what are some of the things you can remember?

HH: We just stuck to the neighborhood as a whole. But they did have, what you call, a civic center like, where you could go and join to learn some things, you know, like they had tap dancing and stuff like that.

TI: So you remember things like tap dancing? So did you take tap dancing classes?

HH: No, no, no. I didn't have rhythm. [Laughs]

TI: What kind of classes did you...

HH: But you went there for recreation, and to meet other people.

TI: And so do recall any of the, did you take, like, singing, dancing...

HH: Oh, no, no.

TI: How about Japanese cultural things, like Japanese language?

HH: Oh, yes. That was important. My father was a Japanese language newsman, so you know... we all had, after schools we had Japanese school. After English school you go down to the Japanese school. You had most of the Japanese schools, the Buddhists had their own language, I mean, language school, and the, we had a Japanese school. It was all segregated, so it would be clustered in areas, so all over had...

TI: But the Buddhist had their own language school?

HH: Yeah.

TI: And then the other ones were just clustered by area.

HH: Yeah, area.

TI: So which one did you go to?

HH: I went to the Japanese Independent School.

TI: And where was that located?

HH: Right in central Hilo. Kukuau and Kinoole. Where you could walk to, you know. Every place you'd walk. You walk to school, which is about a mile.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: But tell me about language, Japanese language school. What was that like? So this was after, after school, regular school, you would go.

HH: Uh-huh. About three, I don't, I guess it was an hour, and regular school first through sixth, sixth through twelve, and you had teachers and you learned how to read, write, and you learned, what they call, sort of like social studies.

TI: So this would be like Japanese history?

HH: Yeah. Not history. What they call shinshuu, what is shinshuu?

Off-camera voice: Huh?

Off-camera voice: Shinshuu, what is that?

Off-camera voice: What is shinshuu?

Off-camera voice: Shinshuu? shinshuu is Buddhist.

HH: Oh, no. Well, what it was was to teach you culture kind of stuff.

Off-camera voice: That school we went to is dokuritsu gakkou. It's an independent school, so no connection with church.

TI: Okay, good.

Off-camera voice: But the Christian children family went to that school, dokuritsu instead of shinshuu that --

HH: Hongwanji.

Off-camera voice: And we went to that because we weren't Buddhist on the shinshuu side. We were the Zen Buddhist side.

TI: I see.

Off-camera voice: So each one that, the one that Buddhist goes to that school, but the rest of them went to dokuritsu.

TI: Okay, good. I'll ask you more about it when it's your turn. [Laughs]

TI: That's good. So how would you compare going to English school with Japanese school? How was Japanese school different?

HH: You had to immediately get down to business. Reading, writing. And I'd get, I would say culture, but... teach you some things you should ethically know.

TI: And so when you said get down to business right away, was it more strict, the Japanese?

HH: Strict, yeah. Attendance was very strict.

TI: And so if you had to compare the teacher at the Japanese language school with the English school, how would you compare the teachers?

HH: The teachers... Japanese language you had only one teacher, because you were there only for an hour or so. The English you switched by subject, and by groups.

TI: So other Japanese cultural things? So like picnics or...

HH: Oh, yeah. They, these people all came from different prefectures, so immediately they set up what they call prefectural associations, and kenjinkai they called it. And you had picnics by kenjinkai and you had meetings and you had, you know, dinners and stuff.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So describe a kenjinkai picnic. What would that be like? Where would, like, where would the picnic be, and what would you do?

HH: Oh, the picnic, well, we have, in Hilo we have what you call Onekahakaha Beach, and there's a stage over there. And so they would, you'd bring your own lunch, dinner, lunch more, and the kids would swim and then they'd have a program on this stage.

TI: And what kind of program? What would they do on stage?

HH: Oh, they had tap dancing and they had all kinds of stuff, but that was more for adults and the kids had games going on.

TI: And describe the food. What kind of food would people bring?

HH: Rice balls with whatever you eat at home, you know. Vegetables.

TI: Now was it the type of picnic where people brought their own food and ate their own food, or did people share?

HH: I think mostly they ate their own, but they did share if you brought plenty. Otherwise you would bring only enough for your family. You got big families now. And you know why. [Laughs]

TI: Well, on the Kona side they said the reason why was because they needed more farmhands. At least that's what they said on Kona. [Laughs]

HH: Oh, that's, that's...

TI: Because there we interviewed one family that had eleven kids and the other one had, I think they had eight kids also.

HH: Wow. Well, I didn't... they could feed 'em with a farm.

TI: They didn't mention birth control, though.

HH: They didn't?

TI: About, at these kenjinkai picnics, about how many people would be there?

HH: Quite a bit. Maybe in the hundreds. And you would lay a mat and you would have your food, and your family would come to eat whatever. And each family had their mat. You just, just put it on the sand, and... it's a gathering place there. But they would have shave ice and they would have sodas, you know, from the kenjinkai. It's organized.

TI: And you mentioned the kids would just go play, so what would you do when you were a child? What kind of play would you do?

HH: They had that, Onekahakaha Beach had a puddle where it was safe for young kids, and then you can -- just waist high -- and so you would kind of swim. You'd swim, actually. And then you would have games. They would organize games for the kids.

TI: Okay, good. Now was there ever a community event where the whole community would come together, and... can you recall anything like that?

HH: Mostly, well, it's too big if you do that, so they do it by...

TI: By kenjinkai or smaller groups.

HH: Smaller groups. Small, but it's big enough.

TI: Okay. How about, like, sporting events? Was, were there sports that were important to everyone?

HH: Yes. There's, they would have what they call "Lincoln wreckers," and they would have area where they had football and baseball, and you would have your rivalry between, you know, the wreckers and then the Lincoln guys. So they, they had a kinda organized kinda rivalry, but this is done by volunteer work, I think.

TI: And how about, was there ever, like, competitions among other islands, like someone from Oahu or Kauai?

HH: I don't, I can't remember, but I don't think so 'cause too difficult to cover the transportation.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Now do you recall any interesting or big events that came to Hilo when you were growing up? Like maybe a special visit or anything like that?

HH: We always had the circus come, which was yearly. I forget when it was, but then you would have everybody just going. You'd buy tickets and you'd go in.

TI: So tell me about the circus. What was that like?

HH: Oh, lots of Ferris wheel, merry-go-round, and lots of food and lot of games where you can throw darts and stuff. But you have to pay, though.

TI: And then when you say circus, do they have things like, on the mainland, you know, so like the three ring circus where they have a tent and they have different acts going on?

HH: I think they had. Not that big, I think, but they had... what was the name of that circus?

TI: The Ringling Brothers was something on the mainland.

HH: They had, yeah, over here they had, I forgot what, but there was one that came yearly.

TI: And I'm guessing, because it was in Hilo, that people all around the island would come to the circus.

HH: Yeah, they would come.

TI: And so when you saw people, the farmers come in, could you tell the difference between people in Hilo and the surrounding areas, the farmers, when they came in?

HH: Oh, no.

TI: So they all seemed about the same?

HH: Yeah.

TI: Let's talk about the family now. So what, describe the house that you grew up in.

HH: I think... it was a small house, but basically it was segregated into about four bedrooms, and then you had the parents in one, the girls in one, and the boys in one.

TI: So that would be three bedrooms, so what would the fourth bedroom...

HH: Well, you got to spread out the girls. There were five girls.

TI: So the five girls shared two rooms.

HH: Two, yeah. But there's no door, there's just a division.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: And so describe just a, you know, for the family, or for you, a typical day. A typical day, like a Tuesday, what would happen in the family, from waking up and going through the day, going through school. Just why don't you describe a day for me?

HH: Well, everybody would go their own way 'cause they all have different kind of jobs. But my father would always be out 'cause he is not only in the office, but he has a lot of community work that he does, but everybody was out because the kids would go to school. We all walk now, so you leave the house early and the only person, generally, at home would be my mother. And she raised ducks and chickens, and raised beans, things that we could eat.

TI: But before everyone went their own way, in the early morning, did you eat breakfast together?

HH: Yeah. Well, I don't know if we ate together. Everybody had their own timetable, but there was only one room where you could sit down and eat. There was huge round table and you could sit all of us and stay, so I know that dinner we always ate together, but breakfast I think you just ate what you could and then left.

TI: And who would make breakfast? Would you make your own or would your mother make it?

HH: I think she made a pot of something and then we, we just helped ourselves.

TI: And do you remember what you ate for breakfast, usually?

HH: No.

TI: But you said a pot of something, so something warm that you...

HH: Yeah, you can always have soup, miso shiru, with an egg inside.

TI: And then you mentioned you walked to school. Did you walk with your sisters?

HH: My sister, and then -- everybody walks, so you had people all walking to school. I think it was a little under one mile.

TI: Okay, and when you went to school, what was your, what would people wear when they went to school, generally?

HH: Regular clothes. Nothing fancy.

TI: But like --

HH: No uniform...

TI: No uniform.

HH: No shorts, just... because mostly dresses.

TI: Okay, so the girls wore dresses, and the boys wore long pants?

HH: Uh-huh..

TI: Okay, so they were dressed pretty well.

HH: Yeah. I'm not sure we had shoes. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, on the Kona side it seemed like they were more casual. They didn't wear shoes when they went to school.

HH: I can't remember.

TI: And then, so you're at school...

HH: And you come home, then you --

TI: For lunch time? Or...

HH: No, no, you have lunch at school. Lunch was cheap. I think it was twenty-five cents, something like that, so you had lunch at school, 'cause that was a pretty good meal. Then you come home and then you go to Japanese school. There's no time.

TI: Now what about the children who couldn't afford lunch? You know, twenty-five cents actually sounds like it might be a lot for some families, or did everyone...

HH: I think they had help. Everybody ate. Nobody went hungry.

TI: Okay, and so after school you said you came home.

HH: You went straight to Japanese school.

TI: Oh, you went straight to Japanese school? From English school straight to Japanese school. And then that went for another hour, and then what time would you come home?

HH: It would take at least half an hour yet. School two-thirty, three, three-thirty... about four or five, four-thirty you'd be home.

TI: And then what would happen when you got home around four-thirty, five? What would happen next?

HH: When you're very young you don't have to do anything. [Laughs]

TI: But the older ones had to, what? They had to do chores, or...

HH: Yeah, they would have chores, and if you have enough older ones the chores are finished by the time it gets to you.

TI: But then, so if you didn't have to do chores what would you do?

HH: No, I did. We had what we call furo, bath, you know what a furo is? Okay, we had a wooden one, and we had to burn firewood underneath to make it warm, and my job was to burn the wood.

TI: So you would have to heat up the water.

HH: Yeah.

TI: Would you have to fill the tub with water and things like that?

HH: Of course I did. Otherwise you'd burn the thing. [Laughs]

TI: So that was your job, to take care of the furo.

HH: And then we'd cook rice outside, too. What, they had what they call kama, you know what a kama is? And you'd burn fire underneath. That was my job.

TI: Okay. And you would start that even, well, obviously, the rice before dinner, but even the furo you would start heating the water before?

HH: Yeah, 'cause there's too many, and you'd just, you'd go one by one practically.

TI: So would you take your bath before dinner?

HH: You'd take it whenever you can with eight people around.

TI: Now, for the family, was there an order in terms of who went in the bath first and who got the last one?

HH: How you... no, no, not necessarily.

TI: It was just whenever people could do it.

HH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: And then you mentioned how you all sat together for dinner. What would a typical dinner be during the week day?

HH: Well, soup, rice, and not too much meat, but lots of vegetables, you know, what they call koko and stuff, pickled things, but they always had something.

TI: And generally the whole family, so you have eight children and your mother and father. And so when you all sat around the table, describe the conversation. What would people talk about?

HH: There's no conversation. You eat and go. [Laughs]

TI: So even your parents, there'd be not much talking.

HH: No.

TI: And so then the food would come out, people would eat pretty fast? And then...

HH: They leave. But they had chores. I think we took turns washing dishes and stuff.

TI: Do you ever recall your father or mother saying anything to the family during dinner, like a special announcement or they just wanted to talk about something?

HH: I don't know. I don't remember.

TI: And then after dinner, what would you do?

HH: It's pretty late already. You'd study and then you go to bed, take a bath and go to bed.

TI: Okay, thank you. I mean, it just really helps me --

HH: Oh, really?

TI: -- understand, kind of... you know, I love just the daily...

HH: Routine.

TI: Routine and how it's different.

<Begin Segment 11>

HH: My father always had a sake. He drank sake with his dinner.

TI: Do you recall having friends over and drinking?

HH: Oh, yes, because he was in this, when they first came to Hawaii, this group of people. I don't know if they were from the same area, but they organized what they called the haiku club. There were about six or seven of them, and they would meet at each other's home. They would take turns so that you have a rotation like, and they would have dinner and then do their haiku. And when they finished they sent this haiku to Japan, to somebody who was helping them, kind of guide them along, 'cause it's not something they knew that well. And then he would even, they would even have contests and stuff, and they would print it in the newspaper one day, when they had a haiku done and who won first place and that stuff.

TI: So when they had the haiku club meeting at your house, tell me as much as you can remember about what they did.

HH: Well, they would... it's easy to have dinner at houses. What they do is they build a horse -- you know what a horse is? A low table, put wood planks on and then they'd serve dinner. Usually your mother would help, help from one of the other wives. And they would make the dinner, they eat the dinner, then they do their haiku.

TI: Now the dinner would be a special dinner, or was it a simple dinner?

HH: Simple, because they want to get to the poetry thing. Haiku, you know what that is? Five, seven, five.

TI: And during dinner, would they all serve some sake also?

HH: No, not that much.

TI: 'Cause they wanted to work, probably.

HH: Yeah, yeah. They had to work.

TI: So they finished the meal. Did they stay at the table, or did they --

HH: They stay at the table. The table is set so you can write on it. You just clear the table, and then...

TI: And so that's what I'm going to ask, so when they started working, did they, was it kind of quiet where they're writing?

HH: Yes.

TI: Or are they talking about what they're writing?

HH: Not too much talking. I think they wrote more, because once they did it, nobody's that good that they can critique, you know, their, the work or help them. They send it to Japan, and a guy would critique and send it back.

TI: Oh, so amongst the group they didn't critique each other? Like, you know how writing groups now where sometimes they'll read...

HH: I don't know. Maybe later on when they got better they probably could, but they relied on the Japan connection.

TI: Okay. And then when they finish writing, what did they do? Did they just go home or did they stay around and talk?

HH: Oh, no, they go home. It's late by that time.

TI: And how frequently would they get together?

HH: I think once a month, and they had, if they had about five people that means you rotate five homes. And so, by the time you make the rounds...

TI: So it sounds like maybe twice a year it would be at your house.

HH: Yeah, just about.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Before we go to the war years, is there anything else growing up -- well, actually, I wanted to ask you, when you're growing up, your oldest sister...

HH: She's gone.

TI: Yeah, she left. How did you feel about that when your oldest sister was sent to Japan?

HH: It was kind of accepted thing. A lot of families sent their oldest child to Japan to educate them there. The monetary exchange was very good. It was cheaper to send them to Japan than to the mainland.

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, so we were talking about your sister going to Japan, and you talked about how it was, because of the exchange rate, it was cheaper to be educated in Japan than in the United States.

HH: Yeah.

TI: But you also mentioned it was usually the oldest that would go, so if it were cheaper, why didn't more people get sent to Japan, like your other sisters?

HH: Then that would be expensive, right? [Laughs] One is enough. Usually one, but a lot of older child went to Japan to be educated. They say they had a whole bunch of people they called Kibei, born in Hawaii, educated in Japan.

TI: But in Hilo it was pretty common for families to do this.

HH: Oh, yeah.

TI: Now, so when they came back, were they... how were they viewed when they came back from Japan? After being educated, say a family sent someone and they, someone came back, how would that person be treated?

HH: Normal.

TI: The same. But then they would have more education, though. Their Japanese would be better...

HH: They would have Japanese education. A lot of them taught Japanese school.

TI: Okay, so they would get certain jobs like teaching Japanese school where they could use their Japanese ability. And generally, over time, were they the ones who developed into the community leaders?

HH: I think so.

TI: So they, so they... oftentimes that extra education in Japan helped them. Now, if people didn't go to Japan, where, what kind of education would they get?

HH: Then you would go to the short term business school or something. In Honolulu, you always had to leave Hilo. It's way later... by the time I graduated you could go to college, but otherwise you'd be short term.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So anything else before we go to the war years? Is there anything else growing up in Hilo that you want to talk about? Any, like, any interesting events in the family or in the community that sort of stand out?

HH: Well, there's lots of events in the community. It's pretty well-organized. They have, they had a Japanese Chamber of Commerce, and they had... they had groups getting together. You always had a show going on, either with the church or some community organization, but you had quite a few things going on.

TI: Okay, good. Now, as you got older, did you have a job? Did you have a paying job?

HH: Well, when, yeah, when I was older it was wartime, yeah.

TI: But before the war, did you have any, any jobs?

HH: Oh, no. I went to school only.

TI: How about summertime? Did you have to do something in the summertime?

HH: No. We had, my father was a newspaper man. I used to help my brother deliver newspaper.

TI: You know, in thinking about your father... so before the war, how did people treat him? What was his position in the community?

HH: Well, I think he was well-known because he could speak well. And he was active in church, in his church, and always took leadership role, and organized a lot of stuff.

TI: And what church did you go to?

HH: Taishoji.

TI: Okay. And this was a...

HH: It's a Buddhist church.

TI: Buddhist. And Zen. Zen?

HH: Zen.

TI: Zen.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Okay, so why don't we go to December 7, 1941. Do you remember that day?

HH: Oh, yes.

TI: So tell me, tell me about that day.

HH: That day, I think she said they were preparing for a bazaar at the church, at the Japanese school, and we heard it over the radio, that it, there was a war and that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor. When it got to my father he couldn't believe it, so he went to his office to try to confirm that the war was on, but he couldn't get through. None of the calls were going through. So then, when you think there's a war and you got eight kids, you got to look, figure out how you're gonna feed them. And usually, if that happens in Hawaii, you know, our bulk things come by ship, so you have to kind of hoard the big items like rice. So what he did was he went to his friend where he buys wholesale. We used to, we used to buy hundred bag of rice to feed the family. I think it lasted six months or so. Anyway, that's what he went to order, and then he went to talk to some of the other friends 'cause you got to plan and prepare with a large family. Then, of course, on December 8th he was picked up.

TI: And before we go there, what about you? When you found out, what were your thoughts?

HH: Wow. I... nothing. I mean, gee, you think, you can't think 'cause you... it's something that never happened.

TI: And how about the people around you, your friends, the family? Do you remember...

HH: They all stuck home. They all clustered at their own home and didn't go out, you don't go out.

TI: How about the feeling? I mean, so people are in their homes, kind of clustered, what's the feeling?

HH: The feeling is "Wow, Japan hit us." That's kind of, you can't think beyond that.

TI: Did anyone talk about, "Wow, I wonder what's gonna happen, or if anything's gonna happen to us?" Or your parents or anything like that?

HH: No, no, no. It's something that never happened, so you don't know. You can't think.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: You know, something I didn't ask, at Hilo, in terms of different races... so you had the large Japanese community, what other type of communities were in Hilo before...

HH: It's kind of spread out. We kind of, where we were, mostly Japanese, so you don't have that much day to day contact with the other nationality.

TI: But if you did have, so there weren't --

HH: They were okay. They didn't...

TI: But what were the other nationalities, or ethnic groups, in Hilo?

HH: Portuguese, Filipino, Chinese, Korean -- Koreans always... they go by race. The Koreans always had rental units. They had apartments. The Portuguese had all kinds of stuff, but they were renters. They raised cows. Each group had something.

TI: And how about whites? Were there very many whites in Hilo?

HH: No, not, not... well, all the whites were rich, and then you had kind of segregated. The rich houses stayed at, most of their homes were up in the nice area, but they were all there. And then we had lower kind of housing. But they had to, my parents had their own home on leased property. It wasn't nice, but it was their own.

TI: Good.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: And so December 7th, you talked about how people --

HH: December 7th was a Sunday, so you had them... well my father was trying to make sure he had food for his family.

TI: And so it sounds like he was already thinking ahead, and he was thinking, "Okay, food," had to plan ahead. And then you mentioned December 8th he was picked up.

HH: Yeah, he was picked up, by seven or eight o'clock. But we were lucky because the guy who came to pick us up was a detective, Japanese, and he was our neighbor. He had lived right across the street. So when he came he was very apologetic, sorry he had to go pick him up and take him for questioning. But he would touch for weapons, but that was just outside. He didn't come in the house, and he went, and he was, and then we never saw him for four years after that. But I met a guy in Waimea, and he had his father come, and he said that was most horrible experience he ever had because the guy who picked him us was not Japanese and he said treated him like a criminal from that moment, so he said it was the most horrible experience that he had. So it depended. We were lucky 'cause we knew, well my father was well-known, so he was treated politely and we thought he'd come back after the questioning, but we never saw him after that.

TI: When your father was picked up, were you home when that happened?

HH: Oh, yes, because, because of the war everybody, no school, so I was home and I was in the living room. So I saw, that's why I know that he touched him and tried to see if he had any hidden weapons.

TI: And you mentioned seven or eight, was that in the morning or at...

HH: Morning.

TI: Okay, so right away in the morning he was picked up.

HH: A lot of them were picked up December 7th, that night. My girlfriend whose father is a citizen, he was picked up December 7th.

TI: Interesting. But I want to go back a little bit because it's, this is the first time I've hear of a Japanese police officer picking up Japanese.

HH: He was a detective.

TI: Okay, a detective, so was he a Nisei, was he a U.S. citizen?

HH: A U.S. citizen.

TI: And about how old was he?

HH: Oh, he must have been in his forties or fifties.

TI: Okay, so he was pretty old, detective... by any chance do you --

HH: And he was right across, he lived right across our house.

TI: So he knew the family really well.

HH: Yes, yes.

TI: Do you recall his name?

HH: (Takemoto). No, I did, 'cause of course they were... and my brother played with his son and, you know. They had no daughters, but...

TI: And so when he was...

HH: Well, he was so polite, right?

TI: Would he speak, do you recall if he spoke Japanese to your father?

HH: Oh, no, English.

TI: Interesting. And so he didn't search the house or anything like that.

HH: No, no. Everything was done on the porch. You know, you had a porch and I was sitting inside the living room, and then it was just, then they went.

TI: And what was your, the reaction of your father, when this was happening?

HH: I kind of think, I don't know. He was, "Oh, well" -- I mean, because the guy is a friend, too, so he probably thought he was just going to be questioned and come back, so he didn't take anything. He is usually in a business suit, so he went with that and didn't come back.

TI: And you say you didn't see him for, what, four...

HH: Four, four years.

TI: Four, almost five years.

HH: They returned November 1945, three months after the war ended.

TI: What about your reaction, when you saw this neighbor detective, who you knew, and you knew he was a police officer, you know, kind of pat your father down and take him away? What was going through your mind?

HH: No, I don't know.

TI: You don't remember. Do you feel, do you remember what you felt? Were you frightened or...

HH: Oh, no, no. No, because it was quite nicely done. He apologized, "Sorry I got to take you to, for questioning." And with Japan hitting U.S., you... anything goes.

TI: Well, this is probably the most gentle FBI or police officer pick up I've heard.

HH: Yeah. Well, because they were friends.

TI: Yeah, this is, this a little unusual.

HH: But the guy in Waimea, was, he said was the most horrible experience.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: So when your father didn't come back right away, how did you find out that, where he was?

HH: I think, I don't know how, but we knew he had gone to KMC. And he could, he couldn't call, and then -- oh, the reason we know is because he had left without any change of clothes, so KMC personnel called our house to ask us to bring him change of clothes. So... it's twenty-nine miles, now, to go there.

TI: You mentioned that other families had, maybe, their fathers taken away. Do you have a sense about how many were taken from Hilo?

HH: I don't know, but the only thing is there's a book there that has numbers. And then they took lots of people away, but a lot were questioned and released, but remaining were 109 from this island that was sent to Sand Island after about two months.

TI: But initially they were at KMC? So they were, they were all there. Now for the families who had a family member taken away, were they treated any differently by the community?

HH: No, there were so many taken away that you kind of had a comrade kind of feeling, but you didn't venture out too long because martial law came right into play at that time. In a few days we had martial law, so you couldn't be walking around, or riding around because your gas was cut down and you couldn't drive around that much. I mean, not that I had a driver's license, but we had a car, and so... martial law was from six to seven no lights in the house, so you can't stay in the house with no lights so what we did was you plastered dark paper, or I don't know what kind, better than paper I think, on the windowpanes. Now, the windowpanes are not one whole sheet. They're, you know, the old type. And you, so that the lights wouldn't go out, show, because if there was light leaking, you would have the policemen come right to the door, say turn off the lights.

TI: So you'd be very careful that all the leaks or all the spaces...

HH: Yeah, and then I think we had only one room where we would put light and then we had this blackened paper on the windowpanes, but I don't think we stayed much longer than eight o'clock. And besides, no TV, we had only radio, so there wasn't much you could do.

TI: Now when you did the blackout and all this, was there ever discussion that Japan might --

HH: Bomb.

TI: -- bomb or attack Hilo?

HH: There was always talk that there was a submarine in Hilo Bay shooting or something, but we were careful not to show the light because you can see from the airplane. So we followed directions.

TI: So how did the family survive? So your father was the main, you know, breadwinner and all of a sudden he's taken away so, eight children, how... and your mother.

HH: At that time she was just back. [Indicating sister]

TI: So your oldest sister was back.

HH: Yeah. And then my father's paper company, Nippu Jiji, they had closed down but then they got permission to reopen shortly thereafter, and they hired my sisters and paid them to do the collections of subscription and do whatever ads they could pick up. And the house was no mortgage, so only the food, and then we had chickens and ducks and vegetables, so you survived.

TI: Oh, so you were fortunate that the company, the newspaper hired your older sister --

HH: Two. Her and my other sister.

TI: Do you think they did that because they knew that your, the family needed, needed help?

HH: Oh yes. They were trying to help us. There were lots of people who tried to help. If, the neighbor had a laundry and when she had enough laundry that we could do at home she would give it to my mother and she would pay it by piece, so she would have some income.

TI: So other families, other people in Hilo knew that, because your father was gone, that the family needed help.

HH: Helped, yeah.

TI: So the laundry person, the newspaper... what were some other examples?

HH: Right after the war they started small businesses, like handcraft with coconuts, and then my other sister got hired there, and they hired as much as possible from the families who were affected.

TI: Okay, good. How about, during this time, during the war, were there ever any problems with the other ethnic groups? You mentioned the Portuguese, the Chinese, the Filipinos...

HH: Not, not, they didn't, they didn't. They were not a problem. I think they were kind of more pity for us.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So where there ever any incidents that you can recall, that maybe didn't happen to you or the family, but maybe others, or other parts of the island, that you heard of?

HH: No, not, not much.

TI: How about during the war? The Japanese community, in terms of, as the war's going on, you know, especially the early weeks of the war, Japan was doing, was really doing a lot in terms of advancing, a lot of military success. Do you recall any, like, pro-Japan feelings in Hilo?

HH: Oh, they were here and there, I think. You know, some felt that Japan was winning the war. That kind, but mostly accepted that this is U.S. and we are American citizens. Then you had the 442 come in and they had a lot of volunteers going off.

TI: This is the part I'm trying to understand because this is where Hawaii is a lot different, I think, than the mainland. So I think in some ways Hawaii's closer to Japan, and the communities like Hilo were much more concentrated than on the mainland, so I'm trying to get a sense of how that all worked in terms of some of the pro-Japan, you know, you have the 442, so you have all these different perspectives. And so how did people get along, or where there, like, discussions, or even fights about that inside the community?

HH: I don't know. You, with martial law you had to kind of stay close to home, so there's not that much contact, and you didn't have too many community gatherings. But you worry about, "Oh, those guys are volunteering." And my brother wanted to volunteer, but my mother refused to let him volunteer because her husband was taken by the U.S., so she refused. But then he was drafted, and with his meager knowledge of Japanese they sent him to the South Pacific.

TI: So he went with the Military Intelligence, or MIS?

HH: No. Oh, I don't know what he was in, what he was... yeah, probably because they would question. I don't know how much Japanese he knew. He skipped school so often.

TI: So going back, yeah, so when some families, like for instance, if someone, like a son, volunteered, did that family sometimes come under pressure from other families, like, "Oh, you shouldn't do that"?

HH: Oh, no, no.

TI: So it was more of a family by family decision.

HH: Yeah.

TI: And in your case your mother felt because her husband, or your father, was in an internment camp, that the son shouldn't volunteer.

HH: Yeah, so he didn't.

TI: And why, what do you think your mother was thinking? That it would be, what, disrespectful to your father if a son volunteered, or what, why was...

HH: No, no, no. We, if he went, there would be no male around, and you kind of feel safer with a grown male than, you know, little children.

TI: Okay, that makes sense. So by just having the --

HH: Male, at least one guy who might be able to work. But when he went, immediately he made a allotment, so that came in.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So you talked about right after Pearl Harbor, the school was closed the next day, but eventually school started again. So how had things changed for you?

HH: Oh, it changed quite a bit. There was talk of, you didn't want a whole group of people anywhere, so they split up the school population, the students, so they would go within walking distance to wherever they could set up. So we had -- and then they closed the Japanese school so the English school could use the facility, and then those in Waikea could use some place in Waikea. So they were, we were split all over.

TI: Oh, so the big school was split into smaller schools.

HH: Very small, yeah.

TI: And the teachers would just go to the various smaller ones.

HH: Yeah.

TI: And that was done because why?

HH: They didn't want, they felt that a large group had a better chance of the enemy coming and, you know, targeting groups rather than individuals. So I even remember, and I can't remember how we got it, we had a gas mask that I slung over my shoulder. It was khaki colored and it was shaped, you know, so you... they were trying to protect the students, but I don't remember the community having that kind of equipment. But it was very short, a very short time, so probably only in the beginning of the war, and then I don't know how we returned the thing, but somehow we just never had to carry it after a while.

TI: And then you mentioned earlier that during the war you actually start working?

HH: Yes.

TI: So what kind of work?

HH: Well, no, but that was in high school, later part. We used to go to school only four days a week, and the fifth day, when you became sixteen, the plantation hired the sixteen-year-olds to do what they call hoe hana, which is hoeing the weeds around the newly planted cane so that you don't get overcome with the weeds. And they would truck us to various places and then we would all hoe hana, have our lunch and then go home. And then when that stopped -- I think these things are seasonal, you know, where you have to catch the weeds, early part, after that you don't have to. Then we had Friday, which was an off day, and we'd go find jobs. So I remember finding a job at a potato chip factory and then working, going to school four days and on the fifth day working.

TI: Okay. When martial law happened, what impact did that have on people? What changes?

HH: You had very few juvenile delinquency. [Laughs]

TI: Because there were a lot of military police everywhere, is that why?

HH: Because you were confined to home. There's no light, you're not supposed to be out, you don't have the gas.

TI: So at night everyone is in homes, there's no...

HH: I think that book said that there was a low criminal activity among the juveniles.

TI: And so how did that impact you when you think about your life? What were the big changes for you?

HH: You stayed home quite a bit. You just went to school, came home, and just never ventured far from home.

TI: So when you're in that one room with one light, what would the family do?

HH: I don't know. Mind your own business. [Laughs]

TI: So you'd just sit in that room and maybe read or, or...

HH: No, difficult to read.

TI: Would the radio be on?

HH: Yeah, radio would be on. That's the only thing. And lights are not fluorescent lights, you know, they're little bulbs.

TI: So it's hard to read, then?

HH: Oh, yeah. You had to go to bed early. Early to bed, early to rise.

TI: In terms of sacrifice, were there some things that you recall during the war that the family had to do without, because, one, your father was gone, maybe, or maybe they were rationing or...

HH: I don't know. I don't, you know, it's the mother who finagles all the income, but I know that those who worked had to give a large portion of their salary to the home pile, you know, the funding to feed the whole family, so they kept very little for their own spending.

TI: I see. And did that happen when you went, you know, did the plantation work, that the money you made was to help the family?

HH: I don't think I saw the money. [Laughs]

TI: So it just went to the family to help.

HH: Yeah.

TI: And how did you feel about that, was that just something --

HH: Accepted. You had to. There's nobody around to feed us.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: Okay, so we're going to start the next part, and you're talking about, you know, so the war had started, they had taken your father away. I wanted to find out did the family have any communication with your father, like letters or anything?

HH: When he was at KMC, none, 'cause they wouldn't even let him use the phone. He's right in Hilo now and you could've easily used the phone, but they didn't, but somebody must have been friendly with him, who was a guard. And he called the house and say, "Your father will be coming on a certain day on a bus to be questioned," so we would all stand outside waiting, but we... the bus passed, but we didn't see him, by face. And then there was, he couldn't use the phone. After that we had nothing, so we didn't quite know how long he stayed at KMC, but according to that book they went to Sand Island by early March, so they must have stayed up there at KMC for about two months.

TI: And during this time, what was your, what was the, what was your mother like? I mean, did she...

HH: She was busy trying to raise vegetables and trying to maneuver so she could feed the large family and figure out all kinds of stuff.

TI: Did you ever get a sense that she was concerned about your father, or did she just not talk about it?

HH: She, I, she didn't talk to me, but she talked to my sister, I think. They talked a lot. Because when we went to school we were told not to speak Japanese, so, being kids, you're not going to speak Japanese, your mother can speak only Japanese, so you don't talk.

TI: Interesting. So who, who told you that you shouldn't...

HH: The teachers at school. It was all over: "Do not speak Japanese." Speak English, I think, it was more, I think.

TI: And before that rule came out, where would you speak Japanese? I mean, when you...

HH: My mother, she could speak only Japanese, she didn't speak English. It was, English was just broken kind, and just, you know, command kind.

TI: So you, when you heard that you said well, you can't speak Japanese even to your mother?

HH: Yeah, being a kid you don't, you listen to your teacher, so you don't speak, then you don't speak to her. She had to turn around and learn English.

TI: When, but then, other than speaking with your mother in Japanese, did you use Japanese anywhere else?

HH: Oh, no. Nothing.

TI: So with your friends you never spoke Japanese?

HH: No.

TI: Okay. So you heard your father left KMC, went to Sand Island --

HH: I didn't hear. I read it in the book. Two years ago.

TI: Oh, you read... so what did you know, then, about your father?

HH: Nothing. Nothing.

TI: So you thought he was at KMC all this time? Even, like, months later?

HH: Oh, no, no. We had rumors fly and then they try to get the rumor back to your house, so we knew he had gone to Sand Island.

TI: And then at what point did the family start getting letters from your father?

HH: I think mainland, or... I don't think you got anything from Sand Island.

TI: And so from, after Sand Island, where did he go?

HH: He went to four states, and it's in my book here. And ended up at Santa Fe, New Mexico. They did go to, what do you call that? Another place in New Mexico. In between he went to Louisiana. But he's, when he came back and he talked about his trip, he made it sound good. He said, "I got to see the United States at the expense of the U.S.," but, no, they were, they were all, the windows were all closed then, blackened, and they just passed through.

TI: So on the train you're talking, when he went from place to place.

HH: Yeah, place to place. So he didn't get to see any place, actually. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: But when he was on the mainland, what was your sense from the correspondence that you did get from him?

HH: We, I was practically the only one writing to him 'cause I think initially they couldn't write Japanese. At some point they were able to, so... boys don't write, so I was the only one writing to him. So I wrote to him wherever he was, then when he would write back it would be just one sheet of paper folded three ways -- you know, that one sheet, your mail kind -- and there would be holes all over the place, censored. It looked like it was razor cut, very clean cut, but full of holes so you couldn't even make out what he was trying to say.

TI: Do you recall the type of things that you wrote to him?

HH: Oh, yes. I wrote to him and told him that the neighbor had a shortwave radio, so we could find out some things. No sooner that letter went out, the FBI went to the neighbor and confiscated the radio. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so when you wrote that letter...

HH: They read it.

TI: They read it.

HH: Yeah, censored. So everything was being censored, so after that I hardly wrote.

TI: Did you feel a little guilty about that?

HH: I was shocked. But, and I was happy that nothing else happened, only the radio was taken away.

TI: Did you ever tell the neighbor that...

HH: No, no, no. [Laughs]

TI: Well, now it's on the record, so they may find out. [Laughs] Wow, so that just shows you that the government was reading everything --

HH: Everything.

TI: -- that was going --

HH: And it was, I don't know what they were cutting out, but they sure cut out a lot, so you couldn't even make out what he's trying to say. I think names, places, all were cut out.

TI: Okay. Even though it was censored, did you get a sense of how he was doing?

HH: No, you couldn't tell. This gave, that book gave a lot.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: Okay, so let's talk about, I know it's kind of a long period of time, but when your father returned. Describe that. What was it like when he returned, because when the war started you were, what, thirteen years old, he was there almost five years, so you're almost eighteen years old.

HH: Yeah.

TI: So it's a long period of time. You've changed a lot, you know, from, I think from thirteen to eighteen, you probably blossom into a young woman, so you've changed a lot.

HH: Yeah, I was in my last year of school. We were the first postwar grads, so everybody was happy that they came back. And he had a job because that company was good enough to give him his job back.

TI: So even before you get into his job, describe when he first came back. How, did you know when he was coming back?

HH: I, we did, but it was almost a few days after they arrived -- they had to go by ship, nobody came by air, airfare -- and more than happy to see him back.

TI: So he would first go to Honolulu?

HH: Yeah, and they were kept there a couple of days and then came back to Hilo.

TI: And so when he was coming to Hilo, did the family know that he was going to be on a certain ship?

HH: I think so.

TI: So just, can you recall, when you first saw him, where you were? Did you, like, meet him at the docks?

HH: Oh, no. I, no, I don't know how he came home, but I have a picture of him with leis, leis on his neck, carrying you, carrying you and the other kid. [Indicating another person in the room]

Off-camera voice: Keishi.

HH: Keishi. Keishi carried somebody, you and...

TI: So some family members met him right away.

HH: Oh, no, this was at home. So I don't know how they met him or who...

Off-camera voice: We don't know how he came back.

HH: I think by bus. You know, they let people off, they controlled it.

TI: But he got, he made, okay, so he came home, though.

HH: Yeah, and then the martial law ended October '44, so I think we were kind of free to do whatever we could, but I think gas was rationed yet, so you couldn't be running around.

TI: But he, he came back, you said a few months before the war ended?

HH: No, after.

TI: After the war.

HH: The war ended in August, he came back in November. It took them three months to bring him home.

TI: Okay, November. November 1945.

HH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So when you saw your father at the house, how had he changed over those four --

HH: Oh, he hadn't changed. He was the same mustache and everything, in the same kind of suits. He must've worn that suit for four years. [Laughs]

TI: What about his demeanor? I mean, what was his, was he..

HH: Well, he is, he tried to make it sound like he had a grand vacation, you know. He never gave us the hard part of living, except that when he, when my mother served him baloney, he said, "Please don't serve that," he wants to cry when he sees baloney.

TI: Because he had so much of that when he --

HH: Yeah, because they eat Japanese food. They don't eat baloney and eggs. They eat rice and miso shiru and that kind so... and then they're forced to eat it. And I think they said some place in Sand Island the guy said, "You have to eat everything that's before you," kind. He was a army kind, so I think that made him want to cry when he sees baloney. [Laughs]

TI: 'Cause he'd just want Japanese food from then on. How about his friends? Did people come to the house after he was released, like haiku club friends?

HH: I think the haiku club was dispersed. The haiku club, one of the guys, he had a daughter who was working for the federal government, and so she took it upon herself to proceed to try to get her father out. And she did succeed, because of the five or six or seven, I forget what, members, only two were permanently taken away. The rest were questioned and released, and the reason was most of them were eight-hour kind of job, they were working for other people. My father, who could kind of maneuver his schedule, did a lot for the community, especially meeting the navy, Japanese navy ship, to entertain them. Besides, his office was right next to the Japanese Chamber of Commerce, which I think coordinated the, you know, taking care of the naval, not individually, so...

TI: So the haiku club didn't meet anymore. But how about just friends in general? Did people come by, did you see any of that after your father was back?

HH: Well, they don't come that often, but I think they did. They can go to his office, so a lot of that kind would go, not to the home. The home is too small, too crowded.

TI: But right away he was able to get his job back?

HH: Oh, yeah.

TI: And he did that. So, again, the newspaper company was good to him and saved his job.

HH: They took care. And they took care during the war.

TI: So when your father came back, he wrote a couple poems, haiku, about his experiences. Do you remember when he did that?

HH: I have it in here, but it's all translated to English. He did, she has, you can talk to her. [Indicates sister]

TI: Okay, so we'll cover it in the next one, about the haiku. Other than those poems, did he share much later about his experiences?

HH: He did, but it was always colored and very like it was such a joyful thing to go from camp to camp. He made, he never gave the poor side, you know, the bad side of things.

TI: Why do you think that? Why do you think he only gave the more positive sides of his experiences with you and the rest of the family? Why didn't he share the hard, the hardship?

HH: The hardship. I don't know. He just didn't want us to see that he had suffered. He only talked about the fun things he did, like, at some point when they couldn't get, read the newspaper -- at some point they did, could read the newspaper -- he would talk about how he would find newspaper, English paper in the trash, read it and announce it to the group of how things were going in the U.S. And that kind of stuff he said.

TI: How do you think the wartime experience changed your father, in his life? So if the war had not happened, he would have been a certain way. Did the war change it so that he was maybe different in any way?

HH: No, I don't... not that sharp at that point to analyze all that.

TI: How about things like your family, like your mother? Did you see any changes?

HH: Well, actually, everybody grew, I think, having had to kind of fend for themselves, and I think my mother probably grew the most. She had to maneuver how to feed the family and make sure that she could feed us an adequate meal, and I don't feel like we were starving.

TI: So your mother had to really grow to take, to take charge of the family.

HH: That's right.

TI: And so feeding the family... what are some other examples of your mother needing to really grow, like maybe even paying bills and things like that? I'm not sure, what would be, like, examples of her...

HH: I think most of, well, she was mostly in the food. We still had cash, I think. But she grew whatever she needed. She had lima beans. We ate lima beans and we cleaned that thing. You know what lima beans is? It's kinda hard shell. We ate plenty of that.

TI: Good.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: Let's talk, go back to you. So after the war what did you do, after you graduated? So you're the first postwar high school class, and you said it was pretty festive and good, so what did you do after high school?

HH: I, because everybody, the war's over, I think more than half of our classmates went to college. And so you'd get caught up in everything and I was sent to college -- first high school. So he must have made all the arrangement. I stayed at the Buddhist dormitory and went to the university in Honolulu and graduated in 1950.

TI: And were you the first person in your family to go to college?

HH: That's right, yeah. The rest all were -- well, she went to Japan, but my other sister went to business school and the other went to beauty school, and my brother went into the war, so I was the first one.

TI: So how did that make you feel? I mean, there's some sense of responsibility being the first --

HH: No, you don't know anything. You don't realize that you're the first. [Laughs] It just so happens.

TI: Oh, so it wasn't too much pressure. It wasn't like people said...

HH: No. In fact, my brother, my kid brother, because they want to send the boys to the school, he said, "Can you please go to college 'cause I don't want to go." [Laughs] So he's gonna step aside, so they weren't pressured to give him, wait for him to go to college. He wanted me to go.

TI: Did you ever have a conversation with your father or mother about leaving the island and going to Oahu and going to college?

HH: Oh, no.

TI: So nothing...

HH: No. Except that I knew it was hard, but there was no choice. We took the cheapest route.

TI: And then you had friends also doing similar things.

HH: Lots of friends. We all, lots went to college. I think this is the first class that had so many go to college, but the time was right.

TI: And when you go to college, how frequently during your college years do you return to Hilo?

HH: Every, what you call, vacation. Summer you come home.

TI: And what did you study at, in Hawaii, at the University of Hawaii?

HH: Social science.

TI: So after you've -- well, before we even go after -- so what was it like leaving the island, leaving Hilo and going to Oahu? How did that change you?

HH: You were independent and you had to, and you had to watch your funds, so there wasn't much that you could do, and you did most things in groups. Everybody else was doing it.

TI: I think it must be a very different time for you, 'cause you're part of a big family where everything was more family-centered, and now you're off on your own a little bit more, you're...

HH: Yeah, but I was at a dorm and it was a Japanese church. And there were a lot of us, so we all did whatever.

TI: Did, did living away from home give you any different perspectives about your family or life on Hilo, now that you were away? When you look back at Hilo, did you have a different way of looking at it?

HH: Oh, I don't know. Not that intellectual. [Laughs]

TI: Did you ever get homesick?

HH: Oh, no. When you're at a dorm there's a large group and you do a lot with the group and you, you make your time. Living in a dorm is good fun.

TI: And did you start doing things like dating and things like that?

HH: Oh, no, no, no. We had no access to the kitchen.

TI: Well, I mean like, I'm sorry, like social life with boys. Did you date with other, with...

HH: Oh, yeah.

TI: And was that different than when you were on Hilo?

HH: Oh yeah, because that's wartime, you couldn't have any social life. In Hilo. But there you could.

TI: So describe a little bit about the social life.

HH: Just go movies and come to the dorm and stay... not that much.

TI: And in the dorm, did, were they mostly Japanese from the other islands?

HH: Oh, yes, 'cause that's a Japanese dorm.

TI: So there were places like, what, Hilo, Kauai, and places like that?

HH: Yeah. So we met people from Kauai, from Maui and, you know, we became friends.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: So when you are going through school, did you always think that you would return to Hilo, or were you thinking of other, other options?

HH: No, no. Return to Hilo.

TI: Now why is that? Why did you think you would always return to Hilo?

HH: Return to Hilo and contribute to the family. What choice do you have? [Laughs]

TI: So you were, I mean, there are other people who, they go to college and then they...

HH: They're on their own.

TI: They're on their own, and they do other things.

HH: No, no, we have an obligation.

TI: Because you're, did your parents pay for your college?

HH: Oh, yes.

TI: And so when you return to Hilo, what did you do, after you're a college graduate, what did you do?

HH: Well, I was, I started working for the state as a social worker, and I saw the other side of Hilo.

TI: So describe that. What do you mean by seeing the other side of Hilo?

HH: Well, the side that's poorer than us, and the side that made a lot of bad choices.

TI: So did that surprise you? Is that something that you had not known about?

HH: Oh yes. Yeah, that surprised me. And so I say I see the other side of Hilo. We were poor, but, you know, you're very protected. You don't have that much criminal activities.

TI: And so how long did you work with the state?

HH: I finished thirty years and I retired.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: And then during that time you got married?

HH: Yes.

TI: So how did you meet your husband?

HH: He came to the office. [Laughs]

TI: Now if I get too, if I get too nosy, just tell me. You can just say... [Laughs] So how, so he came to meet you? Or to, he just came by the office?

HH: To meet me. I guess the men congregate where there are single women, and they try to crowd their way in.

TI: And so he was... he noticed you. He was attracted to you.

HH: Yeah, yeah.

TI: And so he wanted to get to know you better. So what's your husband's name?

HH: Hiram. He's a 442, so he was gone during the war.

TI: And was he a Hilo boy?

HH: No, Honokaa.

TI: And where, I'm, I don't know Honokaa. Where is that?

HH: Honokaa is an hour away from here.

Off-camera voice: Forty-three miles going north.

TI: And was he working?

HH: He was living alone.

TI: Working in Hilo?

HH: Working, yeah.

TI: So how did, I'm curious, how did the two, how did he court you? How, what was the dating like?

HH: He'd just come, make sure he picks me up and takes me home. That's the only way he could. Then we started going movies and stuff.

TI: How long did you date before you decided to get married?

HH: About a year.

TI: And what year did you get married?

HH: 1952.

TI: Okay, so just a couple years after you graduated. And then how many children do you have?

HH: I have three.

TI: And why don't you just, why don't you just give me their names?

HH: Eric, Neil and Leila.

TI: Okay, good. Anything else you want to talk about? I finished all my questions. Is there anything that, like that something that happened maybe during or after the war that, that you want to talk about?

HH: Not really. As I said, I saw the other side of Hilo.

TI: Is there something you want to talk about about that, or anything that you learned?

HH: It was a eye opener.

TI: Because I'm thinking about your family and how...

HH: Oh, by that time they're small, right? Nobody's, everybody's gone, married.

TI: Your family?

HH: Yeah. All were married. And gone.

TI: And your parents stayed in Hilo all this time.

HH: And he started a business. He left the print shop, I mean, the newspaper, and started a printing firm, and hired her and my brother, two brothers.

TI: And what kind of printing was that?

HH: General. All kinds of printing.

TI: And with a focus more on Japanese, maybe, printing? Or just everything in both English and...

HH: Both.

TI: Okay, well, so Mrs. Hagiwara, this is an excellent interview. I mean, thank you for coming here, and I appreciate, 'cause I know it's not always easy, but thank you very much.

HH: Thank you.