<Begin Segment 10>

TI: But in the old days, so you said there was like a first class and a second class. So the first class were these, like, big five families, the whites, and then the second class were, like, the Japanese and Filipinos?

SO: Yeah.

TI: And so when, when say your father dealt with, like, the whites, because he used to work with, like as a cook's helper on the farm and things like that. What was the relationship between the Japanese and whites back then? How would you describe that?

SO: Well, no matter where you go, it's the same. The rich is rich, and you were the lower class, so you just have to listen to them and do what they tell you. So that's all, that's how it was. So people knew that someday, they'll have to have a middle class. So that's when the boys, after they went into the service, came back and created the middle class. So that's how Hawaii grew.

TI: And so for you, it was like you were second class all the way up until after the war, and then after the war when these, the veterans came back, got the GI Bill education, then it started changing, more like in the 1950s, then? Then it changed? It became more of like a middle class?

SO: Yeah, the middle '50s, '60s, '70s, that changed everything. So now they began controlling the government, and then even labor, now they're able to do whatever they wanted, organize all the unions. And then so at first, they used to hire the Scotsmen as plantation foreman. In Hawaiian, they used to call it luna, and they used to ride the horse and control all the lower-class people. Then eventually owners of the plantation figured Japanese are different kind of people, they're aggressive, they want to organize. "So what we have to do is now we're gonna hire, replace all the Scotsmen foremen with Hawaiians. Then Hawaiians would be above the Japanese." And that's what they wanted to do, and then so again, the Hawaiians started to control the Japanese. But again, Japanese were aggressive, so they kept on organizing, and then they came stronger and stronger. So they controlled the legislation now, so they had more things to look after. Like before, they just had to sit here, do nothing, can't do anything. But now they were able to do whatever they wanted.

TI: But in the old days, you said, so they would hire, first, Scotsmen to be the luna, and then the Hawaiians. So were they trying to almost like pit one group against another? Like the Hawaiians against the Japanese and maybe the Filipinos against the Japanese? Was that part of the strategy back then?

SO: Yeah, though Japanese and Filipinos were treated the same. So now they wanted to use the Hawaiians to hate the Japanese. Then they can get, like if you wanted property and things like that, you were able to get it. The Chinese were different. Like Japanese wanted to save money and go back to Japan, but the Chinese, they weren't looking for that, they were just trying to make a living in Hawaii, so they got married to Hawaiians, so they got properties now. So they were much ahead than the Japanese. So they got a head start in owning properties now, the Chinese. So when the war started, at that time, the Chinese were real prosperous. They had all the money. But they were different kind of people now. The Chinese didn't want to share with their other Chinese friends, so they didn't expend too much. You can see that through even like TV ad, the Japanese had three TV stations at one time, the Chinese didn't have any. The Chinese said, "Why spend money to entertain the other Chinese? Whereas the Japanese had the TV station to entertain, to advertise, so they kept on growing faster. And then today, you can see that the Japanese became prosperous, so they're changing now. They're being more independent rather than working together.

TI: And so back in the old days, how did, say, for instance, the Japanese and Chinese get along, like back in, say, 1930, back then?

SO: They were... [laughs]. On the street they were friendly, but the Chinese were more aggressive. They had bigger business, and then they had the money, and then they had land, they had property, so they were much ahead before the war. So like Japanese had to work harder. But today, wherever you go, the Japanese are too aggressive, so they tried to stop the Japanese from coming into any country. No matter where you go, South America, North America.

TI: And when you say the Japanese are aggressive, what do you mean by that? What would be examples of Japanese being aggressive?

SO: At first, no matter what country, Japan had too many, the population was big. So they wanted to send out people to go out and look for different occupation. And as soon as they were invited to different countries, then, instead of being a farmer, the Japanese would become businessmen. So now they're trying to stop the Japanese immigrants from coming in. So that's true in America and then South America, too.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.