Densho Digital Archive - Tetsuo Nomiyama Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: Today is May 2, 2010, we're at the Nomiyama residence in Westminster, California. We have here Tani Ikeda and Ron Yu videotaping, and in the room Tsuru Matsuda Nomiyama and Paul Minerich. And Mr. Tetsuo Tim Nomiyama will be interviewed, and I will be interviewing. My name is Martha Nakagawa. Nomiyama-san, where were you born?

TN: Alameda, California.

MN: What is your birthday?

TN: January 20, 1916.

MN: What is your father's name?

TN: Kenjiro Nomiyama.

MN: And your mother's name?

TN: Matsu Nomiyama.

MN: What is her maiden name?

TN: Danno.

MN: And what prefecture is your family from?

TN: Fukuoka.

MN: Please name me your siblings, your brothers and sisters, starting from the oldest. Your brothers' and sisters' names.

TN: My father have eight... I mean, altogether eight in the family.

MN: Your oldest brother's name?

TN: Oh, mine? I have seven altogether, and my older brother and older sister, I'm a third one.

MN: And what is your older brother and older sister's name?

TN: Don Shiraku Nomiyama and Tomiko Kunisaki.

MN: And then you.

TN: Then my brother, younger brother Kenzo Nomiyama.

MN: So all four were born in Alameda, California?

TN: Yes, uh-huh.

MN: And then after Kenzo, who came after Kenzo?

TN: Tokiye, born in Japan, Noriaki, born in Japan, and Katsu, she's born in Japan, and Seigo was born in Japan.

MN: And Katsu died in infancy?

TN: Yeah, died.

MN: What were your parents doing in the United States?

TN: Father doing yard work, gardening, I think, and my mother, housework for the...

MN: What was the name of your Alameda kindergarten?

TN: Buddhist, Alameda Buddhist Church, that's the place, kindergarten, had it.

MN: Where did you attend Japanese language school?

TN: In Japan.

MN: No, in Alameda?

TN: I don't remember that, Japanese language there, 'cause kindergarten, you know.

MN: Do you have dual U.S.-Japan citizenship?

TN: Yes.

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: How did you feel when your parents said you were gonna move to Fukuoka?

TN: Oh, I don't feel... such a small, you know, good or bad, we just followed whatever parents tell us.

MN: How old were you when you moved to Fukuoka?

TN: I must be about five years old, around there.

MN: Did you speak Japanese when you moved to Japan?

TN: Must have, yes. Parents speak to me Japanese all the time.

MN: Did the children in Fukuoka tease you because you were from America?

TN: No, they treat me good.

MN: Did you get into a lot of trouble in Fukuoka?

TN: No, I don't think so.

MN: No fights?

TN: No.

MN: How about your teachers in Fukuoka? How did they treat you because you were from America?

TN: There's no difference, they treat me good.

MN: When you moved to Fukuoka, did your parents return to the United States? Did your parents return to the United States and leave you in Fukuoka?

TN: Yeah. My mother and my sister and Kenzo lived in Fukuoka, then my father came back to United States.

MN: When you were attending high school in Fukuoka, what was it like in Japan because the military was becoming very strong.

TN: Yes, very strong.

MN: How was, what was it like? Share with us what Japan was like.

TN: I have a schoolbook there. The top one. They give you, just like the military, they give you rifle.

MN: So they taught you to use a rifle in high school?

TN: Yeah, once a week they trained. We...

MN: So it was like a military school.

TN: Not exactly, but --

MN: No, but that's how they were --

TN: Once a week, you know, they... and you have to sign the flagpole and all that.

MN: In high school, if you were asked to fight and die for Japan, would you have done so?

TN: Not exactly. Obviously die for Japan, but there was lot of incident in China, and lot of people grabbed the bomb and sacrificing, and they glorified. And I thought, "Oh, that's something." [Laughs]

MN: Well, Japan in the 1930s, they controlled Manchuria, Korea, parts of China.

TN: Yes.

MN: While you were in high school, did you think Japan would go to war with the United States?

TN: I doubt it, because they was just minding themselves, trying to build up a country. And they need a place to expand. So the people in Japan is really, get together and push in some way. But I never thought they're gonna fight against the United States.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: Why did you decide to return to the United States?

TN: Come back? Because I'm a second son. The oldest son's supposed to take over the family. It's not my, responsible. And I have to decide my own future. And my brother was here, but eventually I thought he's gonna come back, and I could be free. That's why I have a good opportunity to come, and I stayed.

MN: Now, before you could come back to the United States? You had to get permission from the Japanese military office to be excused from the military exam. Can you share with us what happened when you went to the military office?

TN: Yes. When I really decided to come to the United States, my age was coming to military age. Then I asked, went to office, asked for permission. They say, "No." And he really insult me. He say I'm a traitor. I still remember his face. I still remember his lip. [Laughs] But I explained to him, it's not the only staying in country is not the, improve anything. Maybe we need to expand it out. And it's half Japan itself. No, you don't. He need it right now, all the young man, he said. "So you stay."

MN: So what did you do?

TN: Then I went to higher office in Fukuoka. That was just the county office. So I went to higher office, but he told me, too, "Your age coming," he can't do much.

MN: So you had to stay and take the military exam.

TN: Then the military exam, yes. I did.

MN: Did you pass?

TN: I passed. But they pulled the number, and I was off. So I decided to come.

MN: Your mother asked you to stay until the New Year.

TN: Yes. [Laughs]

MN: Was that the last time you saw her?

TN: No, I wanted to come over here soon as possible, so I was gonna decide to go, that was 1946, end of the year. But the mother, whole family, "Oh, come on, stay for New Year, then you go."

MN: So what year did you come to the United States?

TN: '37.

MN: Did you come back by yourself?

TN: Yes.

MN: And where did you go in the United States?

TN: I was staying Angel Island for maybe over a month, long time. Because I thought maybe I had a military exam in Japan, so people know here. So maybe they're gonna reject me, send home. But I'm the only one in the island long time. But finally, they released me.

MN: What kind of questions did they ask you at Angel Island?

TN: It isn't much. They don't ask too much. It's in our paper. So they don't ask, just to keep you there.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: And after they released you from Angel Island, where did you go?

TN: Right that day, my cousin in Turlock, only hour and a half drive to San Francisco, he took me to his home.

MN: And you worked at your cousin's Turlock farm?

TN: Yes. It's a little town, Denair, they call it. It's about five, six miles from Turlock.

MN: Denair?

TN: Denair. And he has a nice place, and that's the house, workman house. It's empty, offseason, you know. So anyplace we have a place to take.

MN: But you were working for free. Why?

TN: I think that age, that time, you know, most of Japanese people just a laborer carrying a blanket, season to season. And my cousin's father has a hundred-some acre, big farm there. And a lot of people worked the season and stay there. And place to stay, too many house, and they have enough money to spend, long as they feed you free, I think that's the way they were. They don't pay, but they could stay. So I went, and that's the way it started.

MN: Can you tell us what your day was like, starting from when you woke up in the morning? What time did you wake up and what did you do at the farm?

TN: I started working next day. [Laughs] Yeah.

MN: What time did you wake up?

TN: See, they had a car. That time, maybe '30, some car. I'm the one, get up, and they send me to school there, high school. So I say, "Okay," I work, I get up early, milk the cow, clean up the barn, feed the cow, and go to school. And come home again, five o'clock, milk the cow, feed the cow, clean up the barn. Then I thought, "Oh, I can't join anything, so I better wake up myself." That's the way.

MN: How much English did you know?

TN: Well, I was determined to learn English, because I look at it, all the Nisei, ten, fifteen years from now, I thought, "Japanese language is no good no more." So if I wanted to be successful, live independently, I have to learn. So I start writing English, I mean, learn. You could see my diary, all Japanese, but all the spending, all English. I was, amazed myself. [Laughs] Dance, five cents, ice cream, ten cents, movie, fifteen cents, it's in there in my diary. I showed it to her.

MN: Where did you get the money to go the movies, get ice cream?

TN: First, I don't have a money. My brother, five dollar a month, he send it to me. Five dollar... five cents, I could buy a tobacco, you know, bought them in a sack. Last me a week. [Laughs] It still was okay.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: But your father started to write to you and say, "Send money," because your house in Japan burned down and he needs to build a new house.

TN: Yes.

MN: So you need to send money to him. What did you do?

TN: You see the suitcase there? My father wrote, "Send the money because you've been over a year now, and we need the money," he said he planned to build a house. But I don't have money. I can't say, 'cause I'm not paying anything. I said, "I just don't have the money." So I tell my folks, "Wait a little while." But they keep writing to me.

MN: So what did you do? Did you find a job? A different job?

TN: Then I thought I better give up this. But actually, cousin, husband, you know, she's the one owned the... but he's a lazy person. Oh, he don't know nothing about the farm because he's, too, big family, and the bottom boy. I think they spoiled him. Every day he'd read the comic under the tree. [Laughs] Then my cousin tell him to, "Hey, you better clean up some spot," he'd get up there next morning and he does that. That's about it. So I thought, "My gosh, he said he's gonna make me a good farmer," but I thought, "This man..." [laughs]. So I thought, "Oh, I better wake up." Then I say I'm gonna get a job. Then Nakano-san tell me, said that.

MN: Where, where was Nakano-san's store?

TN: Turlock to Modesto is about ten [inaudible].

MN: And what was the store called?

TN: Halfpenny store.

MN: Can you show them a photo of the... which one is the store?

TN: Yes, this is the grocery store. Upstairs is apartment, and barbershop, garage, all that.

MN: It's a big store.

TN: Big store. They have everything. General store. Even automobile tire.

MN: What kind of work did you do at the store?

TN: General, you know, serve the people, and delivering stuff. And I lived with them, so Sunday they want to go certain place, I take them, shopping, whatever.

MN: So you had no day off.

TN: Yeah. But I was enjoying, because no family, and people treated me okay. And long as they pay me, I don't mind work. So that was okay. [Laughs]

MN: What kind of customers came to Mr. Nakano's store?

TN: Mostly Japanese and Mexican people.

MN: Did you face any discrimination at Modesto?

TN: No, I don't think so. But I remember one time in high school, I was very popular in junior high school, you know. I have a picture. And we were very friendly. Everybody, they liked me. But the one boy, one time, just playing, called me "Jap." [Laughs] So I slapped him so hard. "Don't you ever call me..." after that... anyway, it was friend. That's it. And one time, too, in the army, I was a corporal's guard, and I did favor for this guy. He didn't do right, and he called me "Jap." So I got so mad, too. Take the, "Come on out," and we fight. But the sergeant comes in, he said, him quit. So that's, all my life, call me, so far, two time, "Jap."

MN: And that was your army days.

TN: Yeah, one time in the army, one time in high school.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: Let's go back to 1941. You got your draft notice from the American military. 1941, you got your draft notice from the American army.

TN: Just a minute. [Adjusts hearing aid]

MN: Okay, 1941, you got your draft notice from the American army.

TN: Yes.

MN: What did Mr. Nakano offer to do?

TN: Oh, he, his health wasn't hundred percent. So he told me -- this is family store, you know -- and the Mrs. doesn't do, and all the children still young, and I'm the only one. And he asked me to stay little longer. I thought about it, but I thought I better go do my part first. So I say I'm gonna join the army.

MN: So he was going to write to the army to have you stay longer? Was he gonna write to the military army to have you stay, not go into the army at that time?

TN: No.

MN: Was that what Mr. Nakano was trying to say to you?

TN: Yeah. He has everything, you know, lawyer, everything, so, "Stay, I'll help you to stay. I said, "Yeah, thank you, but I got to get this over." Anyway, I have to join the army, sooner the better to finish my part. So I say I'm gonna go.

MN: Now, the day of the physical, you were very sick.

TN: Sick.

MN: What happened?

TN: Sick, sick, I have a diarrhea. From Turlock to Sacramento, I had about three, four times. [Indicates vomiting] I wrote it down. So sick.

MN: You threw up.

TN: Yeah. That's the way I wrote it, you know. And they put me into the hospital right away.

MN: You went to a military hospital.

TN: Yeah, military hospital.

MN: But you weren't sworn in yet.

TN: No, I wasn't military that time yet. But they put me in military...

MN: Do you remember what day you entered the American army?

TN: I got it in my diary there. I think fifth, December 5th, I went in, in the army. Sworn in, all myself. This group is already, it's in there. So I think it was...

MN: December 5, 1941, two days before Pearl Harbor.

TN: Yes.

MN: So at that point, how good was your English?

TN: Not too good, I think. But since I was working on the store, I used lot of English, trying to improve. So I think it was all right. [Laughs] No difficulty.

MN: And when you went into the army, is that when you got the name "Tim"?

TN: Tim... in high school. Friend, you know, all the friend. In fact, in junior high, I still write the Christmas card other day, that neighborhood boy, who used to go school, Denair, Stanley Olsen. He's, I visit him after, maybe ten years ago, and we exchanged Christmas card. So that time, I have "Tim." He knows "Tim."

MN: How did you get the name "Tim"?

TN: I think magazine or something. I picked that up.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Okay, we're gonna go back to the army. You're in the army now, and then two days after, Pearl Harbor is attacked. How did you hear about it and what were you doing on that Sunday?

TN: Not particularly. I wrote it down on the diary. It was sad.

MN: What were you doing on that day?

TN: Like I say, all the group is, it's already there, assigned something, I think, group. But I'm the only one alone, and tents, hut, maybe dozen in there, I'm the only one in there. So they don't bother me, practically nothing. Every morning, after the breakfast, they assemble, pick up the cigarette butt all around there, yeah, that's about it.

MN: Where were you at this time? Where?

TN: Where what?

MN: Where were you on December 7th? Were you at the Presidio already?

TN: Yeah. I was in there.

MN: In Monterey.

TN: Monterey, yes.

MN: When, in December, if America asked you to fight in Japan, would you have gone?

TN: Hmm... I don't think I went that far. I didn't think that far, face to face, you know. I was just wondering what's gonna happen.

MN: Now you were in Monterey for less than one month, and then you were shipped to Camp Roberts in California. What did you do at Camp Roberts?

TN: Driver. Big truck, I have to take my pillow, back. [Laughs] Oh, big truck, I never drive that. But they tell you to drive. About two hundred Japanese people there, is all doing detail work, that kind of driver.

MN: Now, from Camp Roberts, you went to basic training at Camp Robinson in Arkansas.

TN: Arkansas, yes.

MN: In Arkansas, were you training with hakujin people or just Japanese Americans?

TN: It's mixed, hakujin and Japanese. I could tell, Company A, B, C, D, all the group is working, Japanese is always end of the line. [Laughs] So they separate each company, Japanese, maybe ten each, I noticed.

MN: So at that time, the Japanese Americans were not segregated yet.

TN: No.

MN: But you saw blacks segregated.

TN: It's Leonard Wood. Then I went, after cook, I got hurt. I burned my hand in the coal stove, and I had to quit cooking. Then they assigned to me guard duty. At that time, I was corporal, so I just pick up the guard here and there and post. That time, I was, pick up a lot of colored people, camp, and those people I posted, you know. Magazine and area, oh, those people all took a lot of beating, and dirty work. But I pick 'em up, they issue me a jeep, and driver, and time come, I pick up the guard and post. So I was there.

MN: So you were picking up people, and you were picking up the black soldiers, also.

TN: Yeah, black and white, too.

MN: And white.

TN: And post, even guard house, you know, two or three posts there, change. Twenty-four hours, and forty-eight hours off.

MN: But you were seeing that the blacks were not treated well.

TN: Yeah, that's the time I saw, but after the incident, I mean, the court martial, in the stockade, then I see group with black people, white people, struggling.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: Well, we'll get to that. So let me go back. So from Camp Robinson, you went to Leonard Wood?

TN: Leonard Wood.

MN: Okay. And were you at Leonard Wood when you heard the United States government was gonna put Japanese Americans into camp? Where were you? Where were you when the government issued evacuation orders?

TN: Oh. That was, must be Leonard Wood. But I didn't pay attention to that --

MN: So you had no feelings?

TN: -- evacuation. Because I have no family, only brother, family, that's about all, cousin.

MN: But where did your brother go to? What camp?

TN: All the Bay Area, they went to Tule Lake, I think. And my cousin, Modesto, they went to Colorado.

MN: To Granada, Amache?

TN: Amache, my cousin.

MN: You said at Camp Leonard Wood, there was a hunger strike.

TN: Camp Leonard Wood? No. Labor battalion, they went hunger strike. And maybe five guys. Then Mr. Oyama's, he knows, DB Boy, Oyama-san, wife's brother, he went to hunger strike on Leonard Wood.

MN: Do you know why they went on a hunger strike?

TN: No, I don't.

MN: How long was the hunger strike?

TN: I think four or five days. We are cooking, but they come, shut down, they don't eat.

MN: What happened to them? Were they court martialed?

TN: I don't think so. But they are in the labor battalion, so they don't need a court martial or anything. But the one person who have a fight, got in, he was in Leavenworth. I forgot his name, but I hear he's there, too.

MN: So one of the Nisei soldiers got into a fight and was sent to Leavenworth?

TN: Because he has a court martial. Because he break the beer bottle and trying to threat. So it's a serious case.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: From Camp Leonard Wood, you went to Fort McClellan, Alabama.

TN: Yes.

MN: The day your Company C arrived, you heard a speech by Brigadier General Wallace Philoon.

TN: Yes.

MN: Can you tell us what he said?

TN: Yeah. I think Company A, B, having the trouble. And General knows what's going on. So when Company C was, arrived, they, Company C, D, too, I think, we went to that place to listen to his speech, yes.

MN: What did he say?

TN: He say, he don't say, obviously, what's going on, but he knows not everybody happy there. So he went out to prevent any trouble, I think. Any trouble feeling, talk around. That's what I understood. That's the way I took it.

MN: So after you heard this speech, what did you do?

TN: Then, next day, I went to see company commander. I'm not happy.

MN: Did you go by yourself?

TN: No, I went, I think, two, three guys was there, too.

MN: And what did your company commander tell you?

TN: He said, "Well, can't do much." So I asked, "Put him in the cage," I want to say something. He said, needs some kind of excuse to put... so I said, "Make a excuse, anything." I want to get in.

MN: When you say the "cage," you're talking about stockade?

TN: Stockade. Then they called the jeep, loaded me up, went to stockade.

MN: Now, why weren't you happy?

TN: Huh?

MN: Why weren't you happy? What were you upset about the army?

TN: I went, lots of Japanese people was in there. I was surprised. [Laughs]

MN: In the stockade.

TN: Stockade.

MN: When you got there?

TN: Yeah.

MN: You did not know there were Nisei soldiers?

TN: No, I didn't know. But I was surprised, oh, my gosh, what's going on? But, then, stockade, and they assigned me in the little hut, you know. And so cold, so I had a bucket, and go outside, then guard on the tower, he say, try to shoot me. "Where you going?" I say, "Too cold. I want to make a fire." No, he tell me to get back in the hut. So I go back in the hut. And within a few minutes, they all called, "Go out, fall out and line up and march down to the mess hall." Then that's the time when we hear the speech.

MN: What was the speech?

TN: Speech, it's the same thing. "This is treason, very serious case. If it's any other country, they're gonna shoot you down. So think hard," and mess hall, they have an open door like that. Open door, "Go back to company, turn right. If you don't, turn to left." So I went out, turned to left, stand there. Everybody coming out of mess hall, what the heck, they're following the other guy right. I thought, "Oh, my gosh, what the heck those people come here?" Yeah, I was kind of surprised and disappointed.

MN: How many people went left?

TN: I think twenty-one, first.

MN: Twenty-one?

TN: Yeah, twenty-one. And all went to right.

MN: How many hundred went right?

TN: Yeah, right.

MN: How many, how many?

TN: I don't know. Big number. Rest of them went. And we was... group here, "no-no" group here, and all the fence outside. And it was, I mean, people, go back to company people were outside, line up. And a few people come back to, in the gate again. That time, I remember Sumida, he's a DB Boy. His brother was there, too. He was with me. And one brother with me from Leonard Wood. And that brother was talking, side, tell him to get out. We can't put the, in the same part. One should take another chance. Tell him to get out. So he got out, taking a training, right turn. They, you know, he ended up with a labor battalion. But with me, Sumida was always with me.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: And your group became known as the "Fort McClellan Disciplinary Barrack Boys."

TN: Yeah.

MN: And you call yourselves the DB Boys. You said Mr. Nozawa wrote a letter to Washington, D.C.?

TN: Yes, I remember. He wrote the letter to Washington, D.C., Kataoka, DB Boy, he's the one carries the mail. Three-day pass, and get out of post, you know, then mailed it out. So he went to Washington. That's all he said.

MN: What was in the letter?

TN: I think he complained about Fort Riley incident. You saw the picture, machine gun with the motor pool.

MN: That's when President Roosevelt came to Fort Riley, and they had to, under guard, go into a hangar and wait until President Roosevelt left? You're talking about that, Fort Riley incident? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? The Fort Riley incident was when President Roosevelt came to Fort Riley?

TN: Yes, yes.

MN: And all the Nisei soldiers had to go into a hangar under guard and stay there until President Roosevelt left?

TN: Yes. Long hours, they say.

MN: So Mr. Nozawa, a DB Boy, complained about that incident.

TN: Yes, that's the main, too, but a lot of people, like Mr. Murata and those people, have a family suffered, and [inaudible] and all that. So lot of people have physically complained, financially complained, all kind of combination.

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: Mr. Nomiyama, why were you protesting?

TN: Huh?

MN: Why, why were you protesting?

TN: Complain? Principle, that's the main thing.

MN: What principle?

TN: Democracy, not equal treatment. It's a long history, Japanese. All the Issei, trying to come up, and they make all kind of role, pressed down. Can't have a citizenship, can't buy a house, nothing. So many way, long time, they press, press, press. Not even just the wartime. That's what I thought.

MN: But maybe you could get democracy if you fought for the army. You didn't think that way? Maybe you get democracy if -- can you hear me?

TN: Lower.

MN: Lower. [Laughs] Did you think that maybe you could get democracy if you fought for America?

TN: No. You see, I saw black people, long history. Do they have a chance that time? No, not a thing. I went to Washington with Paul and all that. I think when they made our Constitution, round the table, all white made the Constitution. Equal, you... whites. So they made a equal, good agreement. But they don't see the colored people. So I thought, oh, they made a good mistake. I, strong, that thought. They didn't think colored people is a people, human. All white down the table, equal. "I treat you equal, you treat me." Made a big mistake. That's what I thought.

MN: So until you were treated equal, you were not gonna fight?

TN: I wanted to clear my feeling by fighting for, anytime. Because, you know, after the war, I meet my friend, Turlock friend. Ever since I come from Japan, he hung around with me. Kiyono-san, Kiyono. And when I joined the army, Turlock people give me a party. City, city gave me a farewell party. That time, I made a speech, broken English, I say, "This is gonna be my country, I give my life." I saw after the war, I saw Kiyono-san. He said, "Nomiyama-san, you made a statement one time, I mean, at that time. You say you're gonna give your life to his country." [Laughs] I was kind of surprised, but that's the way we was brought up. Your country, you have to give everything.

MN: But you could be court martialed and sentenced to death for disobeying orders. Weren't you scared of disobeying orders?

TN: No, I don't scared, because I didn't disorder anything, disobey anything. I'm not scared, no. I have no fear.

MN: How long were you in the stockade?

TN: In Alabama, maybe one year, then removed to Leavenworth.

MN: Can you share with us what this is?

TN: Yeah. This is the one I made in Alabama stockade. It's a box, you know, and all big part out there, I thought I'm gonna save, and I started work.

MN: What did you use for a chisel?

TN: I made it from spring, bedspring. And we have a coal stove, we have a little hammer, I made a little chisel and little knife, all kinds, and I start doing that. I even made a shogi, I couldn't find it. I don't know, someplace I put it.

MN: And shogi is like American chess, kind of similar. They have pieces, wooden pieces that you carved?

TN: Yeah.

MN: And a board?

TN: That's at the stockade, we did. Leavenworth, we can't do.

<Begin Segment 12>

PM: So when you turned left, you didn't know what was gonna happen. So there was a lot of concern about that. And so... lot of things not making sense to me, from what I understood your story to be, Dad. And so, to me, it's not creating the correct impression about what's going on in your mind and what you were concerned about. Do you understand what I'm saying?

TN: What I'm thinking, principle of democracy.

PM: Well, yeah...

TN: That's it. That's the thing I'd like to give my life. If they didn't like that, I don't give my life. That's what I'm trying to say.

PM: Yeah. But, see, I don't understand that. Because on the one hand, you're in the army before Pearl Harbor. After Pearl Harbor, they intern all the Japanese people. So after you went into the army, things changed quite a bit.

TN: Yes, I know.

PM: So, now, all of a sudden, things are different.

TN: Not to me.

PM: But you don't care about the internment. You don't care about Pearl Harbor.

TN: I care, but... I care, that's why. It's rooted.

PM: That's not what you said.

TN: No, it's all the... what I'm saying, it's not chopped off, it's all there.

PM: Okay, listen to me. Listen to me. When you went into the army, when you went into the army, Pearl Harbor had not happened yet.

TN: No. No.

PM: Two days after you went into the army, Pearl Harbor happened.

TN: Yes.

PM: That would seem to me that it would be an important event. Was that important to you?

TN: Yes, very important.

PM: Very important?

TN: Yes.

PM: The country of your family has now attacked the United States, for goodness sakes.

TN: Yes.

PM: Okay. So, several months after that, the President issues an order saying that all of the people on the West Coast that are Japanese have to go into camps.

TN: Yeah.

PM: Was that important to you?

TN: Yes, important.

PM: Well, okay.

TN: Very important.

PM: All right.

TN: Because you have a citizenship. You have a right. You have a house, business, everything. Within a week, you have to go, very important.

PM: And these are Japanese people.

TN: Yes.

PM: You're Japanese.

TN: Yes.

PM: Your brother, your older brother, Don Hiraku, he has a wife at that time, right?

TN: Yes, yes.

PM: He has to go into the camp. His wife is in the camp. So you have family members in the camp.

TN: Yes.

PM: That would seem like that would be important also.

TN: Very important.

PM: You were thinking about that, too.

TN: Of course. It's all connected, I said.

PM: Fine.

TN: It's not chopped off.

PM: Okay. So, you're now asking, the army is asking you to continue your training, and they're asking you to fight for the country that Japan has now attacked, and the country that now has put the Japanese people in the camp.

TN: Yes.

PM: So, that must have caused you some concern in your mind.

TN: Of course.

<Begin Segment 13>

PM: So, things go on. The people are put in the camp in 1941. You did not go into the stockade in Fort McClellan until 1944, right?

TN: That's right.

PM: That's three years later.

TN: Yes.

PM: So what is going on in your mind for three years?

TN: Three years, I wanted to prove my feeling. And within the limit I have, to loyalty on the United States.

PM: United States was your country.

TN: Yes, my country. And I have a, I have, gonna give all my life, if it's, give me everything to whatever you're entitled. But they don't give to us.

PM: To who? Give to who?

TN: To Japanese people.

PM: Okay. So let's assume for just one moment, okay? Let's assume that some other country had attacked the United States, Germany or Italy or some other country, and that the relocation of the Japanese people never happened, it was someone else who the United States was fighting with, you know, not Japan but some other country. Your mind probably would have felt differently, or would it not? What would your feelings be?

TN: My feeling is, I gotta do much as I can to the limit. That limit is my life, see. But come to McClellan, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna give my life to this country. That's why I waited so long to do what I can do until, limited.

PM: When you went to Fort McClellan, you were probably going to be trained for combat to replace people in the 442nd and to go to Europe.

TN: That's right, yes.

PM: Okay. So at that point, you felt, "Well, I better say something now or never"? Or may never have a chance?

TN: Yes, that's right.

PM: All right. But what I'm concerned about and what I'm asking you about is, how much was it of concern to you that it was your family and your Japanese people that had been put into the camps, as opposed to just the general injustice that minority people have been feeling for many, many years? See? You understand what I'm asking? Black people were slaves in the, you know, since the country started. Chinese people and Japanese people had discrimination against them in our country for a long time.

TN: Long time.

PM: Okay. But how important was just the general feeling of discrimination versus specifically what was happening with the relocation camps? How much did that play in your mind?

TN: Japanese people, black people, Chinese people, it's connected, Paul. Look at the black people, how they treat? Like animal. Don't you think so?

PM: Yes, there's been problems, absolutely.

TN: You think that's fair? No. Is that, all that rule and law, they give anti-Japanese law they made in California. You think it's fair? It's not just the wartime discrimination. I'm thinking about history, what they did. That's what it is.

PM: When you went to your commanding officer, then, to complain about this, what made you think that you could do that at that time?

TN: I don't know. I don't know, but last chance I have, thing to talk. That's why I waited so long, and last minute.

<Begin Segment 14>

PM: The day before you went to your commanding officer, you heard the speech.

TN: Yes.

PM: Was there something in that speech that indicated to you that you could talk to your commanding officer?

TN: No. I don't know. I don't know, but I don't care. I wanted to state my part. Then I wanted to satisfy myself. Then I'm willing to give my life. That's the way I felt.

PM: What type of satisfaction were you looking for? What did you want your commanding officer to do to satisfy you so that you would continue to train?

TN: Equal. Then they have to change.

PM: Well, but the commanding officer couldn't do that right away.

TN: Couldn't do that. So what can you do? I couldn't do it, but I have to clear my thinking some way. I need a help. I have to talk somebody to clear, so I could give my life to country.

PM: Well, you talked to him --

TN: I waited so long.

PM: Okay, and you talked to him.

TN: Yeah.

PM: And what did he say?

TN: He can't do. But that's okay. I want to say something in the court martial. That's the way. If they can't do, that's okay. Not okay, but what can I do? At least I say something. Then I clear my feeling.

PM: So when you were given the choice to go to the right or to the left...

TN: Yeah, left.

PM: The commanding officer in the stockade had talked to you before you made that choice. Isn't that true?

TN: It's all my choice.

PM: Well, before you made that choice, the commanding officer talked to you, and to everybody else in the stockade, right?

TN: Stockade.

PM: The commanding officer talked to everybody in the stockade before you had to make the choice to go right or left. Is that true?

TN: What is that?

PM: The commanding officer talked to you in the stockade. Yes or no?

TN: Stockade... they don't talk person to person there.

PM: The whole group, they talked to the whole group.

TN: Yeah, whole group.

PM: And what did they say to the whole group?

TN: He say, "You open the door, you want to go back to camp? Refuse, left, right."

PM: It was my understanding, from what other people have said that heard that same speech, that it was a little more threatening than that. They said something to the effect that if you choose not to go to training, that that would be disobedience, and that, "You know what happens to people in Japan if they choose not to do that." It was like it was, it was trying to make a threat to you. Do you remember that or not?

TN: No, I don't. I just clear my feeling. Only way I'm gonna go left, and I want to declare my obedience in court martial. That's all I wanted.

PM: So when you went to the left, you had no fear about --

TN: No fear. None whatsoever.

PM: Okay. And so you felt that was your chance, then, to make a statement at the court martial.

TN: That's right.

PM: Okay.

TN: Exactly. I don't care what they're gonna answer, give to me, long as they don't clear my mind, I don't care. That's the way I felt.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: While you were waiting for the court martial, what did you do in the stockade?

TN: Stockade?

MN: You were waiting for the court martial.

TN: Oh, yeah, stockade, we fixed the ditch and pick up the rock and all kinds of stuff, that's all. But we behaved very good, friends with the guards, you know.

MN: When did you have your court martial? What day?

TN: Court martial...

PM: April 1944.

TN: Yeah, '44.

MN: Were you tried as a group, or individual?

TN: [Laughs] What?

MN: Is it a group trial or individual trial?

TN: Individual, yes.

MN: What were you charged and convicted of?

TN: Disobeying.

MN: Did each soldier get the same sentence? Did each soldier get the same sentence? Would you like to answer that, Paul?

PM: Mr. Kataoka, he was sentenced to thirty years. You were sentenced to five years. Why do you think that they gave a different sentence to the different men?

TN: I think Taniguchi, Kataoka, then me. They're trying to scare the group, so they gave a heavy one, Taniguchi and Kataoka. That's what I thought.

MN: Did you have an interpreter for your court martial?

TN: Yes, yes. But I never used, I never trusted.

MN: Was it a Korean interpreter?

TN: No. I think Japanese.

MN: MIS, maybe?

TN: But I don't use. Well, he was sitting there, but I don't bother.

MN: And where were you sentenced to? Where were you supposed to do your prison time? When you were sentenced, when the judge sentenced you, you're gonna do prison time. Where are you gonna do your sentencing, your prison time for your punishment? Where were you sent to?

TN: Then after that, went to Fort Leavenworth.

<Begin Segment 16>

MN: Tell me what Leavenworth was like. Describe it to me.

TN: That's very tough place. It's very, history, they have long history. And when you go through into your room, I think you have to go through about five gate, I remember, to get to your room.

MN: Were you scared at Leavenworth?

TN: No.

MN: Were all the Nisei soldiers in one section in Leavenworth?

TN: Leavenworth, big, and inside, they have a wing. And our group is one wing, and all separate. And one door handle to shut the, oh, maybe twenty room at a time. Then upstairs. Then the window is far away.

MN: At Leavenworth, did the army try to change your mind again?

TN: I think so. There's barrack there, so time to time, they interviewed, "You willing to go back to the army?" Yes.

MN: Did some people change their mind?

TN: One out of our group.

MN: What was your answer? What did you tell them at the interview?

TN: No mistake. We stick to original, my, his idea. That's all.

MN: So you were still protesting. You were still protesting.

TN: Yes.

MN: In your group, do you think there were informants, inu? In your group, do you think there were informants, inu? One more time?

TN: Your voice kind of high.

MN: Oh, go lower? In your group, do you think there were informants, inu?

TN: Oh, inu? I suspect.

MN: Why?

TN: I don't know why. They come to you, talk nicely, but they don't come too close, you know.

MN: They were friendly, but you didn't feel very close to them?

TN: No. Then that, few people left, they don't come 'til the end yet. Some way they get out.

MN: So you suspect that they were there to be friendly and get information from people and then go back out? You think that's what they were doing?

TN: For what?

MN: As a inu?

TN: Inu, yeah.

MN: Did you think they were, they're friendly with you --

TN: I don't know. Just a feeling, I think. So we just stay away, you know. Just don't go in through the...

MN: Were you friends with the black prisoners at Leavenworth?

TN: Yes.

MN: How did you become friendly with them?

TN: Oh, Mr. Nozawa, he's a really talkative, friendly people, person. He make hakujin group, black people group, very friendly. And especially black people, we tell them what we're here for, and they feel also, we are brothers. We really together feeling.

MN: Do you, is that how you protected yourself in prison, to be friends with the black prisoners? Did you protect yourself, Japanese Americans, from other criminals by being friends with the black prisoners? Were you friends, did you become friends with the black prisoners? Did you become friends with the black prisoners as protection from the other criminals?

TN: Black people?

MN: There's other criminals in Leavenworth, right? Other criminals. Other criminals. There's other criminals at Leavenworth. Other prisoners.

TN: Other prisoners, that's all.

MN: And sometimes you get attacked, and you have to protect your group. How did you get protection? Did you get protection from the black prisoners?

TN: Alabama stockade, they really have a racial feeling. Black here, Japanese here, us, and white. And Nozawa friend, a hakujin, gave us the information, how they're feeling, what they're gonna do. And the black prisoner come us, you know, "We're gonna help your case." White attack Japanese. Evening, each day, all the prisoner had to fall out... let me see. Japanese, white, and black people, and they come. Then one day, white group throw the rock, us.

PM: You call yourselves DB Boys because of Fort McClellan or Fort Leavenworth?

TN: McClellan. I'm talking about the stockade.

PM: Which one?

TN: McClellan. I'm sorry.

MN: That's okay.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: Okay, Nomiyama-san, one more time. You're talking about, right now, Fort McClellan stockade, where the black prisoners were going to help you?

TN: Yes.

MN: Oh, I thought he said Fort McClellan, Alabama.

PM: No, when we had our break, I asked Dad about where the name DB came from. Was it the Fort McClellan Disciplinary Barracks or the Fort Leavenworth. But when we broke off, we were definitely talking about Fort Leavenworth, and there were no black prisoners that I think protected each other in Fort McClellan was my understanding. I think that was all Leavenworth. I think that's what he was talking about in his memoirs, so maybe you better be careful asking --

TN: McClellan and Leavenworth was...

MN: Different.

TN: Way different.

MN: So let me ask you, let me ask... Fort McClellan, were there black soldiers?

TN: Yeah.

MN: Were the black soldiers gonna help you? No, right?

TN: Black and white and Japanese in McClellan.

MN: Were you friendly?

TN: I feel that something going racially, you know, struggle. But we all depend on the black people.

MN: At Fort McClellan, black soldiers. Not prisoners, black soldiers.

TN: Black soldier, yeah.

MN: I'm going to go to Leavenworth, okay? We're at Leavenworth now, okay?

TN: Leavenworth.

MN: Let's talk about Leavenworth, okay. So Leavenworth also had black prisoners.

TN: No, it's all mingled. I think it was... but it seemed like they spent, I'm not sure...

MN: So you had no trouble at Leavenworth?

TN: Leavenworth, no.

MN: You said you were, when you had to do rock quarry duty at Leavenworth?

TN: Leavenworth?

MN: Yeah, you had to do rock quarry, you know, breaking the rock?

TN: Yes.

MN: Yes. Who was your partner? Your partner? You were handcuffed to another Nisei soldier.

TN: You mean work? Yes, I went to, one day, with rock quarry with Sakuma. He's thirty years' sentence, I have a five years'. They put five and thirty years, and sent to mountain, rock busting duty. But I'm feeling, they were trying to see how we'd behave.

MN: And one prisoner tried to escape?

TN: No.

MN: No.

TN: But one time, road is so icy, slippery in the hill, and start spinning. And we were hanging on the truck, and a lot of prisoner trying to talk about the escape in the mountain. But the jeep, all over with the machine gun, you know, good thing they don't run, I thought.

MN: You had five year sentence.

TN: Five.

MN: How many years were you at Leavenworth?

TN: Maybe one year, little over.

<Begin Segment 18>

MN: When did you come out of Leavenworth?

TN: 1945. '44? '45.

PM: Probably 1946.

TN: '46, January. No, June. Someplace there. I knew they give, issue us heavy winter clothes.

MN: But it was hot. It was probably June 1946.

TN: '46, June.

MN: What kind of discharge did you have?

TN: Dishonorable discharge.

MN: When you left Leavenworth, how much money did you save?

TN: I had about two hundred dollar, somewhat, I think.

MN: And you took a train to Colorado?

TN: Yeah, Colorado.

MN: And...

TN: I lost them all, I thought.

MN: Tell me the story.

TN: In the train station, I lost them all.

MN: No money?

TN: All money.

MN: How did you lose two hundred --

TN: I had a... soon as I got out of Leavenworth, Kataoka's place, he was living in Kansas. Then I'd throw away all the clothes and I bought the nice silk shirts and suitcase, then a billfold, and took a train to Colorado. In the station, I got off the place, windy. Then one person get off with me, and hat flew away. Then I tried to catch for that hat, and I lost it. Next day, oh, no. It slipped out. Just for somebody else's hat. So I went broke. [Laughs]

PM: You've been broke ever since. No money.

TN: Yeah.

MN: So at Denver, you went to see your cousin. So what did you do for your cousin at Denver?

TN: That's the tomato season. I think short season anyway. I helped harvest it, then we all moved on to, back to Denair, my cousins coming back, so came back.

MN: And what did you do there?

TN: Then cousin offered me to run the dairy. The hakujin was running. So I said, I talked to my brother. He was saying he will like to do gardening in Oakland with me. But I thought, "I like farm," so I stick with the cousin that came back. And even I made a contract. My brother says, I think, make a contract. So I made a contract in there. But his own way, and I took over.

MN: The dairy. But you quit after one year. Why?

TN: Because I couldn't take it. Because single hand, about fifty cow. Get up four o'clock in the morning, feed the cow, cook myself, irrigate the field, almost twenty-four hours, twenty hours a day I have to work. I can't take it. [Laughs] Then all the tool was just half broke down. This hakujin used it all, much as he can, they never fix it. I don't know how to fix it. Wagon broke. It was hard time. But somehow, I survived one year.

MN: And you saved a lot of money after one year.

TN: I think I made about, I don't know how much, hundred, half my cousin take, half I take. Then I had to make a payment for hay, all that, cow, I have to take share. So I had to pay back some costs.

<Begin Segment 19>

MN: But after you quit, you got married.

TN: Huh?

MN: After you quit, you got married.

TN: Yes.

MN: And at that time, how did you meet your wife? How did you meet Tsuru Matsuda?

TN: My cousin's sister was imperial party, and sister no husband was big supervising, and he knows lot of people. And he was in the camp, he knows some people, and one of the group, and he knows my wife here. Introduced me, tell me to come down, tag along. [Laughs]

MN: But you didn't tell her you didn't have a job.

TN: No. I can't. Her father, mother, you know... without a job person, I don't think they'd like it. So I keep my mouth shut.

MN: How did you pay for the wedding?

TN: Huh?

MN: How did you pay for the wedding?

TN: I had it. I had, at that time, when I quit and everything, I think four or five thousand dollars. So I still have all the receipts: ring, party, wedding picture, everything is paid. So I had enough, saved that up.

MN: So when you use your saving for your wedding, then what kind of job did you get after that?

TN: Then my brother was saying he wanted to, me to become a gardener. But I thought, no, gardener. And I looked, come to see here, I thought, oh, this is open place, and seemed like a more forward country. So I thought, I decided to come here.

MN: To Orange County.

TN: Yes. I moved everything, all the tools. Even I was using in the barn... I still have here. Shovel, fork, hay pitching, still I have here. [Laughs] It's about seventy years now.

MN: It's antique. After you married your wife, or before you married your wife, did you tell her about your military protest?

TN: For a while, I didn't tell. I didn't tell nobody. Because complicated, you know, very complicated. Lot of people don't understand. Just one word, you can't finish, pretty deep, this kind of thing. So no use to tell until time's come, I know time's come. Just like Paul say, "How come?" But I wait and wait until last.

MN: What did your wife say when you told her that you were in prison?

TN: Oh, she didn't say much. I don't tell my daughter either. No one. No one, even her.

<Begin Segment 20>

MN: Well, from 1948 to 1954, Mr. Edmund Zane, he tried to help you, Mr. Zane.

TN: Yes, Zane.

MN: How much did you help Mr. Zane?

TN: That time, he wasn't in yet. Kataoka, living in Los Angeles, we become a good friend, communicate, and we was working.

MN: To try to clear the DB Boys' names?

TN: Yes. That thing, he really involved heavy.

MN: He was not successful.

TN: Huh?

MN: He was not successful.

TN: No.

MN: You know, when your daughter started to date Paul, Mr. Paul Minerich...

TN: I don't know, ask him. [Laughs]

MN: Well, when she started to date him, you were against it.

TN: Yeah.

MN: Why were you against her dating a hakujin?

TN: He, Lisa, sat down here, I said, "No. No way." [Laughs]

MN: Why?

TN: Well, like I speak far ago, how much Japanese people, colored people here, you know.

MN: They're pushed out?

TN: Yeah. Discrimination. I don't like it. But I didn't say my army record, no.

MN: But you told Paul before you told Lisa about your army imprisonment.

TN: Yes. But after he married, after he become a lawyer, then, "I show you something," and he saw my court martial stuff.

MN: Now, why did you decide to tell Paul?

TN: But soon as... well, I had to tell why I... even my wife don't know nothing. I better tell. This is the time to tell, so I told. He saw the paper and he say he's gonna work. [Laughs]

MN: How did you feel when Paul said he's gonna help to try to clear the DB Boys' names? How did you feel?

TN: Feel clear. Feels light.

MN: Were you happy that Paul was gonna help you?

TN: Oh, yes. He helped hundred percent. I trusted him hundred percent. All the DB Boys was depending on him. He practically worked for nothing, all this work.

PM: You know, Martha, when my wife was a young girl, she would go to picnics, and they would call themselves the DB Boys, but no one ever questioned, "Well, who are the DB Boys?" So she grew up with this whole group that they would get together, but she never knew the story. Right, Dad? I mean, you would get together for picnics with the DB Boys. Even when Lisa and your daughter Susie were little, but no one knew who the DB Boys were.

MN: It was just a group, then.

PM: Yeah, just a group of friends.

TN: He's the one put the DB name, Disciplinary Barracks.

PM: Who put the name? Not me.

TN: You? I thought you.

PM: No. That name had been, for some time, I think they called themselves that.

TN: Anyway --

MN: Isn't that a military term? Disciplinary Barracks Boys? That's a military term, right?

PM: Not that I'm aware of. If it is, that's news to me.

MN: That was just my assumption. So we don't know the origin of why they're called the Fort McClellan Disciplinary Barrack Boys?

PM: It's never been clear to me whether that name originated from the Fort Leavenworth days or the Fort McClellan days, who started it, and how it came to stick. I just assumed that it's just one of those things that just developed over time because these guys did make a point to stay together after they were released from prison and they went on about their lives. They continued to get together again ever year with their families and so forth to keep the association alive.

MN: Now, Mr. Nomiyama, when Paul started to work on this, was it very hard to get other DB Boys to come into the group?

TN: Especially northern part, they're not interested. So I thought, "Okay." And when he start telling me that, "I'm gonna work for you," and whoever comes, he says he gonna take care. So one day, I told everybody, "We're not gonna force you, you volunteer to join me here." So all the southern California, they joined me and Paul worked.

<Begin Segment 21>

MN: Now, in December 1982, the army voted three to two in favor of granting everything you asked for except setting aside the court martial conviction. Are you happy with the results?

TN: Yes. What else can you ask for?

MN: Looking back, were you ever ashamed of what you did during the war?

TN: No, not a one bit.

MN: Do you have any regrets?

TN: No.

MN: What would you say if somebody says, "Nomiyama-san, you were, you were not loyal to the United States"?

TN: Yeah, that's right.

MN: What would you say to them?

TN: That's why I don't like to tell anybody. Because like I say, each individual, different situation, different feeling. Especially Niseis, you know. No, it's really complicated.

MN: So if I say to you, Nomiyama-san, "I think you were disloyal." What would you say to me?

TN: I say, myself, I'm hundred percent loyal.

MN: But you didn't serve in the military, you protested.

TN: Yeah. But I believe myself, I'm a hundred percent. I was ready to give my life, but it's not worth that much. That's what I feel. That's why, even maybe 442nd, all that, making a good job, but to me, they're using it.

MN: You thought the government used them?

TN: Yeah, government, 442nd, good boy, good fighter. Look at the Texas group. They only want to save two hundred-some. Look at the 442nd, eight hundred-some. Korean War, look at that. Why so many Japanese, young ones have to go like that? I think, to me, government use. Italy, France, machine gun nests, hard to... 442nd, come on, good fighter. To me... they overuse. That's what I feel. Why? [Shrugs] Maybe they think I'm a chicken. Yeah, maybe so, but I think some of 'em, you're chicken. They can't express themselves. Shikata ga nai, follow. That's what I feel. That's the way born, that's the way I was educated. I'm stubborn. [Laughs] But anyway...

MN: You know, 1989, the government apologized, and they gave reparations. Do you think that was enough? What do you think about that?

TN: It's, I think, fair. But that money, not gonna pay what they've done. That's the way I feel. No, it's not gonna pay. But at least people release and what they did, it's okay, fine. Thank you.

MN: Would you like to add anything else, Nomiyama-san? I've asked all my questions. Anything else you want to add?

TN: No, thank you. Thank you very much for this opportunity you give to me.

<Begin Segment 22>

MN: Paul Thomas Minerich. And I wanted to ask a little bit about your background. Are you from southern California?

PM: No, I was born in Euclid, Ohio, which is a suburb of Cleveland. But I came to Santa Ana where my mother currently lives, to that home in 1959. My dad transported all of us out here, and I've been here ever since.

MN: Now, while you were growing up, had you heard about the incarceration of Japanese Americans before?

PM: Not in particular that I recall. I didn't know too much about it until really I guess my college days, and when I started to date my wife, Lisa, I became more aware of that.

MN: And did you meet Lisa in college, or how did you meet Lisa?

PM: We went to high school together, at Santiago High School in Garden Grove. We never went out or anything in high school, we started dating in college. We both attended Cal State Fullerton and started dating in college, so we graduated from high school in 1969, and graduated from college in June of '73. We were married in August of '73.

MN: Now, how did you feel about Lisa's father's reaction to you coming to the house and not really wanting to talk to you?

PM: I didn't know she had a father for a while, because whenever I came over, he wouldn't be there. [Laughs] I mean that to say that he didn't associate with me that much. I don't mean that literally, you know, but it was cool. He, I think it was clear that he was really not in favor of me dating his daughter, but I did anyway, thinking that, well, what's not to like? So he'll learn to like me.

MN: Did your own parents have any problems of you marrying a Japanese American?

PM: No, no. No, they just had the concerns that... we were young when we got married. I was only twenty-one, so they just had the concerns that we were maybe too young to get married. But never in particular a problem with regard to the, to the different ethnicities. I think my dad had mentioned it at one time, but it was never a serious problem.

[Interruption]

MN: Okay, what is the ethnic background of the last name "Minerich"?

PM: Yugoslav. My grandparents, when they got off the boat, so to speak, when they came from Yugoslavia, my name was M-A-J-N-A-R-I-C. And phonetically it's "Mine-rich," that's close, and so my dad has kept it ever since like that.

MN: Your mother's also Yugoslav?

PM: Yeah, my father is Croatian and my mother is Slovenia. They were both born here, but their parents were born in Yugoslavia. Croatians and Slovenians is kind of like the Hatfields and McCoys, I guess, to some extent. But they, that's as much of an issue of them getting together as me and Lisa, you know. 'Cause, oh, Slovenians and Croatians, they don't get married. But there was no problem with that, yeah. They're both from Yugoslavia, their parents.

MN: Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore.

PM: No. No, it's all been broken up into the different countries.

<Begin Segment 23>

MN: Now, did your relationship with Mr. Nomiyama get better after you got married?

PM: Well, I asked Dad's permission to marry his daughter, and there was resistance to that. But he finally agreed, 'cause Lisa wanted it, and I wanted it, so it was accepted, and certainly, it got much better. And I started to call him "Dad," and he reciprocated, you know, and treated me better and respectfully, so things improved as we went along. So it was a, it was a good thing.

MN: Now, how many years were you married before he divulged his past to you?

PM: We were married in August of '73, and I learned about this, I believe -- just judging from the actions that we took in 1980 -- I would have learned about this probably in early '79. Maybe late '78, early '79, something like that, around and through there, would be my best estimate as to when I learned about it.

MN: What was your reaction to him being in prison?

PM: Well, it was... it was the kind of situation where I felt I knew him then, I knew his character, so I knew something was up there. I mean, something bad happened for which he had to take a position on, that he made a judgment call. And I respected him enough to know that I didn't immediately thing badly about him because of that, certainly. We needed to know more about what the thinking was that went into it. So it was just a kind of, "Oh, really?" kind of a situation, you know. Then we learned more.

MN: And what did you think about the situation where he hadn't even told his daughter yet about his past, and he told you.

PM: Well, yeah, I suspected that his daughter and his family knew something about it, because like I had mentioned, they had been getting together with the DB Boys since they were kids and having picnics and so forth. But no one really questioned what was going on, which I thought was very unusual, that the family didn't dig into this a little bit more because it was such an event, a historical, something of social importance. But it didn't, and so they were learning along with me as to what happened.

<Begin Segment 24>

MN: Now, what happened after he told you his past? Did you offer up, you know, "Maybe we could clear the DB Boys' names"? Or what started this movement?

PM: Well, he told me for a reason, you know, and frankly, I don't recall as I sit here who had the first ideas to move forward with this. But it just kind of occurred that, yes, we should try to do something to clear the air about this incident, because he had the stigma of a dishonorable discharge and a court martial conviction at that point in time, and I felt that there was certainly some explanation to that that may render that being an unjust verdict that occurred, particularly in view of the history that had occurred since that time. And so I felt that maybe there was something that could be done. I had no experience whatsoever with respect to military matters, but I knew enough to know that the laws with respect to those matters are substantially different than what I was taught in law school and what I was tested on in the bar. So one thing led to another, and we ended up going to a military rights, veterans military rights organization up in Los Angeles, very near USC, on Adams Boulevard. And they explained what it is that we could do. And so I read up on it and studied up on it, and we then decided to approach the rest of the DB Boys and see if they would be willing to go along with it. As with any group, some of the men were gung ho, and some were not. Some chose not to participate, and some were right there and in the moment and wanting to go forward with it. In particular, Mr. Kataoka, he was one of the more interested men involved, and some of the others were quieter about it but still had the, their conviction about this, I mean, their moral conviction about it that they wanted to do something about it, and we assembled a group.

MN: Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were twenty-one convictions?

PM: Yes.

MN: And of that twenty-one, how many joined your group?

PM: I believe there was eleven.

MN: And I know Mr. Edmund Zane had been working on it way earlier. How helpful was he to you when you started, reopened this in 1980?

PM: Mr. Zane made a valiant effort to try to get something done in the '50s, late '40s and into the '50s. And the time just wasn't right. He, he made a very detailed presentation to the, to whoever would listen to him at that time, and he made a lot of effort to contact different political and legal contacts in order to try to get some help. And he put together some briefs that analyzed the trial transcripts and the court martial convictions, and tried to make arguments about why the evidence was insufficient to support the convictions and so forth. He had it on 8 1/2 x 14 sheets of paper that was single-spaced, and it went on for, I don't know, hundreds of pages. And so the presentation to me seemed very difficult to understand. But most importantly, I think the time was just not right for his efforts. His efforts were gonna, were not gonna be listened to like they were when I started to do something because civil rights hadn't occurred. Whereas it had by the time that I took up my efforts. So it was all in the timing, as most things often are. And his wasn't at the right time. But he sure put an effort into it on behalf of his friend Mr. Kataoka.

MN: And, of course, by 1980, yes, the civil rights movement, and then the redress movement was just starting and the coram nobis cases were being opened. Did that influence how you approached the military, and do you think it influenced the final verdict of the military?

PM: Well, I would think that it did, yes. It didn't influence me in particular in the way that I presented the case. But I can't help but think that the historical perspective was of overwhelming importance. Because a lot of things had happened since World War II with respect to racial equality. We came along at a time when those things had already occurred and we were riding on the backs of those people who had done that to a large extent. Because ours was a case of racial discrimination, and that's what these men were protesting and resisting in the military. Of course, their situation was different and more compelling because they were in the military, and it put a different dynamic on this. Because these weren't just civilians not wanting to be inducted or being conscientious objectors. These were military men who were charged with evading orders or disobeying orders. And so there was that dynamic that was going on as well.

MN: So were you satisfied with the final verdict that they gave to all the men?

PM: Satisfied, no. Because we had requested that the court martial convictions be set aside. But I certainly understood it, and I understood where they were coming from. And I respect that, you know, that they didn't overturn the convictions. We took this in a two-part process. In 1980, we applied for basically, it was a clemency type of petition. And they were granted their honorable discharges as opposed to dishonorable. But we took the second step a couple of years later asking that the court martial convictions be overturned, and that they be reinstated to the benefits that they had. And so we got as much out of it as one might reasonably expect, I think, under the circumstances. So I think the bottom line is, is that these were still military men, and despite the feelings that they had about what was going on socially and the particular effects that these, that the internment and the war had on these men in particular, they, they were still military men that had to obey orders. So I could certainly respect that. And so that's why I think the conviction was not overturned completely.

<Begin Segment 25>

MN: Now, this was a two-year ordeal. How were you funding this?

PM: The men each chipped in, you know, there was really no funding. It didn't cost anything to do this. The only cost involved was our plane flight and lodging back in Washington, D.C., because we were granted a hearing that we had at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. And so it was just that, and of course, they paid for it themselves. Every once in a while they would kind of put some money in a hat to help me defer some expenses that I went to in assembling the documents that we had, but the out-of-pocket cost was insignificant. It was my time, which I gladly donated and didn't ask for anything on that, but they were good enough to, as I say, pass the hat and give me some monetary remuneration for what I was doing.

MN: Well, if they actually went out and hired a lawyer, it would cost a lot of money.

PM: Well, the time that was put into it was significant. So it was a labor of love on my part.

MN: And your wife Lisa also helped out, right? She typed out...

PM: This is before computers, you know, so yeah, the brief, she typed it. I can remember her sitting at the IBM typewriter, you know, typing this, and I remember the sound of the erase button on the typewriter as we go. [Makes sound effect] It used to make that sound. She typed it, yeah. In the office, 'cause I had just started out at my practice, I got sworn in in December of '77, and we were doing this in 1980 through '82, so it was the first few years of my practice.

MN: And I know you said you went to this veterans organization in Los Angeles, but did you go to any other, like, 442nd group or any other Japanese American groups to help you?

PM: I enlisted the help of Senator Matsunaga and Senator Inouye. And they were helpful to me. They gave letters of recommendation, basically, and were sympathetic to what we were trying to do. I don't believe I went to the JACL, and I believe that that was intentional. A lot of the men did not have a good opinion of the JACL, and the reason why is because of the stance that the JACL took during the war, and basically saying, "Hey, we need to prove our worthiness as American citizens." That wasn't the position that they took. And so they didn't respect that position, and so I didn't enlist their help. No, I didn't go to the ACLU. The ACLU did not help these men back then, and there was some question as to perhaps why not. But the ACLU had a different position back then, too, which was all documented in Shirley Castelnuovo's book. She goes through that and explains that, and frankly, I learned about that through her book as well. But I didn't enlist their help. I can tell you, though, that since we have done what we have done, and in particular, as a result of the Loni Ding movie The Color of Honor in which our story was presented, and was mostly about the 442nd and the MIS, that I can tell you that the 442nd men who have expressed an opinion about the military resisters such as the DB Boys, they have been, they have been sympathetic towards that. They have expressed a respectful attitude towards the military resisters, and understanding that those men did what they thought was the right thing to do. And while, and while you may think that some of the men of the 442nd would say, "Well, the men who resisted were just trying to get out of combat duty and chickened out," so to speak, they don't feel that way, at least publicly, the opinions that I have received. Perhaps some do that have kept it to themselves, I don't know. But the ones that I have heard express an opinion have been respectful, and I admire them for that, because obviously they took, they did what they had to do and they put themselves in harm's way. And you've got to respect what they did in boatloads of respect.

<Begin Segment 26>

MN: Now, how was your relationship with Mr. Nomiyama changed as you had helped him on this, on trying to clear the names?

PM: Well, I think that he, he had to trust me, and he did, and as well as the other men. So our relationship grew much better, of course, because there was a mutual respect, I think, involved. I respected what he has done, and I still do, and I think he respects me for putting the effort in that I did. And so we're in pretty good shape, I think, as far as that goes. We're having a little problem right now, though, because I'm trying to save and salvage some of his bonsai, and he's very concerned about my efforts to do that because I'm a beginning bonsai person, and I don't have the experience. But I'm doing my best. [Laughs] I don't know if he respects my ability as a bonsai man at this point, but that's the only problem that we're having right now. He had some that were in the ground, niwagi, they call it, and so I dug them up and I'm trying to save them. And so far, they're alive, but I'm very concerned about it. [Laughs]

MN: Let me ask you about your father. Did he serve in the Pacific?

PM: No. He was a, he was a flight instructor in World War II, and, but he was never stationed outside the United States. He taught others how to fly bombers, and that's what he did.

MN: Did, what was his reaction to hearing about Mr. Nomiyama's story?

PM: My father had strong opinions about the war and what happened, but he's an open, big-hearted man, and he could understand and respect the position that my father-in-law has taken on this. So, you know, there were strong feelings about the Japanese. I mean, this is before my day, but he's lived through that. He was in the war, and he is past that. And they had a good relationship, both my parents and the Nomiyamas have gotten along in no other way but great during our marriage.

MN: Is there anything else I haven't asked you that you want to add?

PM: No, I don't think so. The only... just in general, about this situation, it's a difficult situation because, as Shirley has pointed out in her book, you have conscientious objectors, and you have what she characterized as "conscientious resisters" -- which is the DB Boys -- and she made a distinction. And I think it's an important distinction. Why are these men different -- and they asked me this question at the hearing at the Pentagon -- "Why are these men different than other conscientious objectors?" And in my mind, and I think she makes this point as well, is that it was really the immediacy of the problem to them. Now, my father-in-law, in his interview, has expressed that he was, he was concerned about racial equality in general, and yes, he certainly was. But he also points out that he was very concerned about what was immediately going on with the Japanese people. Because he did have family that -- although he wasn't married at the time and had no children, but his brother sure did, was married, at least. So it was, it immediately affected them in a way that most conscientious objectors don't have that. They have a general, a generalized objection to war or a particular war. And that's also a distinction, as to whether you protest war in general, or you protest a particular war such as the Iraq War. But these men had another layer of specificity to their experience that made them different. And I think that was a very important point. World War II, yes, there were protesters, but these guys didn't know about that or conscientious objection and these kind of things. They were reacting to a problem that was right in their face, that they felt that they had to do something about it. So there's no question in my mind over the sincerity of each of these men that I represented, had the honor to represent. And there's no, there's no doubt in my mind that they would have, they would have gone to battle and given their lives for the United States, but they needed something back with regard to this immediate problem that was going on. And I understand that. And so this is the way that they chose to meet that problem. And I think, while we certainly need the fighting men that actually chose to fight, we need some people questioning what's going on as well in order to improve. And I think, and part of the people who have objected and resisted such as we have in the black experience, the Martin Luther Kings, so to speak, and all of the others who went unnamed, who fought this fight at the lunch counters of the United States, we need those people, too. And so I'm glad that we have them, and we still have one sitting with us. That's my thinking about it. I may not have made that choice, I may have chosen to fight, but I respect what they did and I'm glad they did it.