Densho Digital Archive - Rose Matsui Ochi Interview II

<Begin Segment 1>

MN: March 14th, we're at Cal State University Long Beach.

RO: Where?

MN: Cal State University Los Angeles. [Laughs] Sorry about that. We have Tani Ikeda on the camera, and Gordon... what is your last name, Gordon? Lee. And Tommy Ochi. We'll be interviewing Rose Ochi, and I'll be interviewing, and my name is Martha Nakagawa. Okay. Rose, this is session number two. Let's go back to the Supreme Court victory you had with the Serrano case. You didn't continue in law. Why not?

RO: Well, you know, it was two years of my life. I mean, sixteen-hour days. And remember, I'm a Reggie Fellow. We made ten thousand dollars a year. And at the end, while it was a major victory, major victory for schoolchildren, not only in California but throughout the U.S. We needed to go to the state legislature to pass enabling legislation. And I thought, well, trials take too long, and I want to get involved in politics and understanding how public policy are made.

MN: And that's how you ended up in the Los Angeles mayor's office.

RO: Yes. My mentor, Terry Hatter, was director of the City Criminal Justice Planning office under Tom Bradley, and he asked me to come, and I began as a program director. Had an opportunity to develop juvenile justice, gang, drugs, domestic violence, just the whole array of criminal justice and juvenile justice programs as well as policy, deadly force. It was a place where I can advise the mayor not only on public safety policy as well as civil rights.

MN: Did any of this help you in your future work with the Manzanar Committee? And if so, how so?

RO: Yeah. All my work, whether it's working on redress or Manzanar, involved understanding the political dynamics, having access to elected officials, and that you develop those over time.

<Begin Segment 2>

MN: Now, can you share with us again, when you were working in the mayor's office, you also got a call from the White House. And can you share with us that story, how you got selected and how they got your name?

RO: Well, actually, we were skiing in Utah with UCLA classmates, and someone said, "The White House called." And I said, "Sure." It was actually the White House, and they were asking me to serve on the Select Commission on Immigration and Refugee Policy. And when I took the call, I said, "Number one, I don't know anything about immigration. How about So-and-so and So-and-so?" And they let me know that I had been selected, and that they are ready to convene. I said, "Why me?" And there were two individuals, Norman Locke, he and his wife Esther, where were very much involved in the Carter campaign, and that they insisted that... this is an unusual body. It's made up of four senators, four congressional members, and four cabinet members, four public members, and I was going to be the Asian representative. That they asked that they select that person. And when I asked them some time later, "Why did you pick me? I don't know anything about immigration," and they said that they had heard that I'm not afraid of anyone. And part of that comes from, I was a civil rights lawyer and I was in Legal Services, so you're always fighting the dragons and all. But in City Hall, I had a reputation of taking on the police chief. He's a pretty notorious police chief, Ed Davis.

And can I share my story when I met him? I went to see him after I was appointed, when my boss was appointed to the bench, he recommended that I succeed him. So I went over to see the chief and I said, "Chief, I'm going to be the director." He said, "Oh, no. Tom Bradley, he went and done it again. A woman, a lawyer, an ACLU type?" And I said, "Chief, you know what? Think about it this way. It's like a pickup basketball game. Sometimes you're skins and sometimes you're shirts." He said, "You be skins." You know, he had this wonderful sense of humor. We didn't agree on policy, but we recognized that when we were fighting the state or fighting the county, that I was going to be leading the charge, and we became fast friends. I believe, though... I, my father was a kind man. And if you grow up and you're not afraid of your father, then you're not afraid of strong men, and I think that helped a lot later in my career.

MN: So that's where you sort of got this reputation of being fearless, 'cause you were able to take on the LAPD chief of police, okay. So now, when you get this call from the White House, Mayor Tom Bradley gives you an option. And can you tell us what the option was and what you chose to do?

RO: The mayor, the mayor actually supported all my involvements, whether it was with the bar or with Japanese American community. And in this case, this is going to be a major commitment. We would be going back to Washington to deliberate, conduct hearings, etcetera. And he said, "Rose, you can go on company time." And I said, "No, I'm gonna go on vacation, because I'm gonna say whatever I have on mind."

MN: So you wanted that freedom, okay. Now, can you share with us that first meeting on that select commission, what you said?

RO: Well, this was the opening, and there are speeches from the chairs, Hesburgh, and the chairs of the judiciary committee. You had Rodino and all the dignitaries speaking. And they're about ready to close, and I says, "Excuse me." And I just spoke very briefly. I said, "Historically, immigration and refugee policy has been arbitrary and discriminatory racially, and that as we proceed, we need to be mindful of this and work appropriately." I didn't tell him the story that my mother and father were subject to deportation after we were released from internment.

MN: Well, you also were sort of the lone voice for protecting family preference?

RO: Well, what happened is... we had a lot of so-called liberals. It was during the commission's life, the administration changed from Carter to Reagan, and people started to shift. And there was a chance that the fifth preference, the reunification of brothers and sisters, was in danger. So there didn't seem to be any other voices, people felt that that was one that have to, to give away. And one day, we took a break, and I went over and I was talking to a Representative McClory, a conservative Republican from Chicago. And I learned that his daughter-in-law was Chinese, and she, we talked about family reunification. When we came back from break, McClory stands up and speaks on the issue. Senator Kennedy turned and stared at me, because I guess he assumed it came from me. But I, I've always made it a practice to work both sides of the aisle. We've done that in City Hall, and we'd done it for Manzanar.

MN: What sort of opportunities were open to you when you served on this commission?

RO: Well, you know, you're... these are the top leaders of the judiciary, and we were able to form some very fast friendships, because we conduct hearings, have dinners. I remember going to dinner with Alan Simpson, Senator Alan Simpson from Wyoming, and he told the story that when he was a young Boy Scout, that he and his troop went into the internment camp Heart Mountain to have... what do they call it? A powwow with the Boy Scouts, Japanese American Boy Scouts. And they camped and played together, and they made fast friends. And one of them was Norman Mineta. And they were pen pals for many, many years, and I had an opportunity to share that story when Ms. Reno was gonna do the keynote speech for the groundbreaking for the National Japanese American Memorial Foundation. I asked her, they needed a speaker, and then if you something like that, then you are stuck writing the speech. But I used that opportunity to insert that story. But, you know, history is actually made by relationships, and those two work together on redress. But redress had its ups and downs, as you know, and I had an opportunity to work for JACL at the time when I was the national vice president of membership.

<Begin Segment 3>

MN: -- after about three or four years, and then you called Joan Bernstein, who was heading the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians. And what did you recommend to her?

RO: Well, you know, the Commission lasted many years, and so you become very fond of the staff. And I have to tell you, if I may, can I do it my way? When the Commission held its first meeting, Jack Herzig, Aiko Herzig's husband, was someone I knew, 'cause I used to serve on a public safety committee for the National League of California and Cities, and Jack staffed that body. So we, when I visited Washington I'd meet Jack and Aiko. And so when I was appointed to the Select Commission, Jack said he's gonna take me out to lunch. So he took me to this fancy restaurant near the White House. It was called Maison Blanc. And I went in there and I thought, "Wow." And these ladies, they sat there with their fancy jackets, with their label hanging on the back. And I said, "Jack, would you believe this? Look at that." And I said, "Don't worry, I got it covered." I flipped over my label with Gianfranco Ferre, and he got a big kick out of that. But at the time, my husband was working as a, heading a architectural firm in Beverly Hills. So there's more occasions to go be in Beverly Hills and Neiman Marcus, and Tommy bought me that suit for the first meeting. Gianfranco Ferre, I believe, is the architect who became a designer. But any event, that's how Jack and I were in touch when I served on the Select Commission. So when the Commission finished its work, one of the things it did was it extended the life of the Commission. And so as the Wartime Commission was moving forward, the commissioners and the Commission staff wanted to ask for an extension. So the wartime hearings were going around the country, and I stayed at Jack's house. And they asked me, would I testify in Los Angeles? And that hearing was pretty much all set, but they added me on so that I could make that pitch of asking for an extension, because the Select Commission had made an extension. How did I have this connection with Aiko? When the Select Commission ended, I wanted the staff to find positions. So I called Ms. Bernstein, and I said, "Here are some good people, lawyers, accountants, etcetera. But I want you to do one more thing. I want you to hire Aiko Herzig. She has done the research for Farewell to Manzanar, she could hit the ground running. And as you know, Aiko discovered the information about the lack of military necessity that was just instrumental in the successful lawsuit, the coram nobis cases.

<Begin Segment 4>

MN: Okay, so Rose, I want to ask you about Manzanar now. Let's go back to 1972, you're still a Reginald Heber Smith Fellow, but you still had time to be involved in the Asian American community, and you incorporated a lot of nonprofits. And can you tell us some of the nonprofits you helped incorporate?

RO: Sure. One of 'em was the Asian Educators, Francis Nakano, I believe, was the principal, he approached me. I think Sue Embrey came to know me through that organization, 'cause she was a teacher at L.A. Unified School District. Asian Pacific Women's Writers, Manzanar Committee.

MN: And that's the really important one. And now, Manzanar at that time also received a California State landmark designation, which was very contentious. And then after that, Congress authorized the review of all the ten WRA camps and found Manzanar to be the most intact. So at this point, Dan Olson from the National Park Service's Western Regional office had the job to conduct the study, but he wasn't getting anywhere. So, because Manzanar sat on the Department of Water and Power land. So somebody gave Dan your name in the mayor's office, so you got this call. Now, when you got this call from Dan Olson, what did, how were you gonna overcome this challenge?

RO: I had been assigned Manzanar. I mentioned Jeff Matsui, who was an executive assistant in the mayor's office, and he handled Asian American matters. I handled civil rights and criminal justice policy, but he assigned Manzanar to me. So I took the call from Dan and I said, "We'll talk to the mayor and we'll see that we'll clear approval with DWP. [Interruption] But also, I'd like to approach the Inyo County Board of Supervisors. Manzanar lies within Inyo County. So I wrote a letter to the board, and I asked to meet and have lunch at the Big Pine Cafe. And some time later, I got a call from the Inyo County Reporter, and he said that Keith Bright, when he read the letter in the board hearing room, he threw it on the ground and he said he had served in the Pacific War, and was I one of them? Anyway, the day arrives for our lunch meeting, and they were all gathered in the Big Pine Cafe, and there were other supervisors and some guests. In fact, one of the supervisors brought a Japanese American medical doctor who had been interned in Manzanar from Mammoth. So I said, "Which one is Keith?" And I motioned to him and I said, "Let's talk." And I buttonholed him outside, and I said, "Look, you know, what don't you want?" I know that there's a lot of sentiments against, there's a lot of residuals from the California designation fight, and that I'm gonna make certain the Japanese American community wants what's best for Inyo County as well." I said to him, "What do you need?" I said, "You need economic development. If you build the site, the more reasons to stop, eat, visit, buy gas. Look at it this way." And he looked at me and he said, "Let's get to it." And I want you to know that the congressman from that area was a Republican, and that while I had connections with Mel Levine, who introduced the bill from Los Angeles area, we would never have succeeded but for the support of the Republicans led by Keith. He was viewed as Mr. Republican, but he did more than that. He, I would go up there and he would, I would meet with Indian Paiute leaders, that Manzanar was occupied by the Paiutes before the army drove 'em out. I met with families, descendants of the early pioneers, the apple growers, who were all removed by DWP. Keith opened all those doors, but he's the person that bared the brunt and the political backlash. There were others. There was Bill Michaels, who was the head librarian of the Eastern California Museum. Here in town, I'm, we're here in L.A., and it was very ugly. If you review any of the Inyo County papers during that time, our first superintendent, Ross Hopkins, was subject to death threats. And here's a person whose father, who was killed in the Pacific. And he stood by and fought hard for the establishment of Manzanar. The bill had already passed, but this is during the process where we're trying to transfer the land.

MN: Let me go back to Keith Bright and Bill Michaels, but especially Keith Bright, 'cause he's an elected official. During this time, did he ever say, "Rose, I can't help Manzanar anymore, it's gonna hurt my reelection"?

RO: And that's why I admire him. I don't think he gave it any thought. He's an old-fashioned guy, a man of principle, and he thought once he learned that -- you know, let me back up a ways. Most people believe the internees were Japanese. They clearly did not know that anyone volunteered for the U.S. Army and served. I'd like to share a story of how...

MN: I'm gonna get to that. This is where you're gonna be talking about the public meetings, is that...

RO: Yeah.

MN: Okay. Share with us, then. Now the National Park Service is setting up these public meetings. You have no idea who's gonna be there, you have people like Lillian Baker out there. Tell us, how did you, how were you gonna take this challenge?

RO: Well, I thought that this is not a time for lawyers, this is a time for real people-to-people conversations. So I asked about, for some 442 vets that would be willing to come with me to Inyo where the public meetings. And I wanted someone that would be comfortable in interacting with maybe even some unfriendly crowds. And I found two wonderful vets, one, Hirotaka Sugawa, the other, his name escaped me, I believe it was Shiro. And the day of the hearing, I said, "Let's meet for breakfast." And they showed up, and they had on their jackets and medals and their hats, and I said, "Wow." As we approached the hall, we crossed paths with this World War I vet, his name is Bernasconi. And he was sent to oppose the designation. And when he saw these two Japanese American vets, he just stopped in his tracks. And he said, "I didn't know you served on the American side, the same side." It was a very powerful moment. And then Hiro went in at the hearing and he just disarmed everyone. There were actually a couple of activist leaders from L.A., and I said, "Let Hiro talk." 'Cause I was fearful that they would, you know, refuel the California designation conflicts. And Hiro, he just disarmed everyone, and he said, "You know, my name's Hiro, I'm not a hero, but I left internment," and joined with his friends, leaving their families behind. And there was no need to talk more. It was a slam dunk after that. There's some diehards always, but the good people of Inyo County embraced the project. So we had the support there, but the war was both in City Hall and also in the halls of Congress.

<Begin Segment 5>

MN: Now, let's talk about City Hall. First of all, before the war started, you were able to get a lot of donations through the Cultural Affairs budget. Was that very difficult to have them support Manzanar through donations, and what was the donation going towards?

RO: Well, as you know, Sue Embrey, the chair of the Manzanar Committee, organized a pilgrimage every year. And it was a potluck. And so one of the things that I would do is round up food. Gilbert Lindsey, who represented Little Tokyo, and his aide, Arlene Kuba, would get me crates of oranges and apples. But there's other grants that have been provided to buy busses . The city, there are, many city council members supported Manzanar.

MN: So you were able to work internally to gather that support. And then it was your idea to get the L.A. City Council to pass a resolution in support of Manzanar. Now, why was it important for the city council to pass this resolution?

RO: Well, over the years, Manzanar was supported by most of the council members, is that at this critical stage, the former deputy mayor for Tom Bradley now became president of the Department of Water and Power. And now we were at this point where we've introduced legislation, we're trying to get council support so that we could move forward in Washington. And Mike Gauge was vehemently opposed. His argument was that the presence of the Park Service would undermine their water, their water rights. So he was couching it in environmental rights versus civil rights. And actually, some people thought that he wanted to run for mayor, because Tom Bradley was gonna be termed out. So we went to council to ask for their resolution. And one day, Sue was there, I was an executive in the mayor's office, so I could not be the face of Manzanar within City Hall. And Sue testified at the hearing. And I saw Mike Gauge pulled her aside, and this is a bull of a guy, and he's jabbing his fingers at Sue and he said, he said, "This'll never happen. Over my dead body." And he said, "Settle for a city park." After that exchange, Sue came over to me and she said, "I was terrified. I was trembling." And I said, "Oh, from where I sit, looked like it was righteous indignation." But she, she said to him, "The city did not incarcerate me, and the federal park is the only way." And in any event, so we marched on. But the fight was not only in the city. They moved over to Congress.

MN: Well, before we get into Congress, now, I understand Michael Gauge, when he was given this city resolution, when that was introduced, is it correct to say that he threw it on the floor?

RO: Yeah, yeah. He crumpled it and threw it on the floor. While I already had the votes, that didn't make them very happy. So we had unanimous support from the council.

MN: So when the actual resolution came before the city council for a vote, was he there? And if Michael Gauge was not present at the vote, how were they able to pass the resolution?

RO: Actually, at one committee hearing, actually, he was not present. And the staff asked that we delay the vote, and the committee chair, president Ferraro just said, "Forthwith," and approved it without him.

MN: So you were able to really get a lot of support for Manzanar internally.

RO: You know, my job was go to before council for the criminal justice office, and I'd been with the city many, many years. But the point is, yes, it's the mayor's relation, but it's actually, it's individual.

<Begin Segment 6>

MN: Okay, so let's go into Congress. Now, after the National Park Service determined Manzanar was most suitable, you contacted Congressman Mel Levine. Can you tell me why you called him?

RO: Congressman Levine happened to sit on the right committee, Natural Resources. And he, I knew him, and he actually represented the west side area.

MN: And are you the person that also contacted Congressman Bob Matsui's office?

RO: Well, the, after we began this process, the Park Service had an anthropologist study Manzanar, and they discovered that around the dump site, they found a lot of valuable artifacts. And so Ross Hopkins... actually, this is after. This after the designation.

MN: Okay. So we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's talk about the House Committee that you testified before. And who testified, who went with you, and how that went.

RO: Yes. The, we had three of us testify before the House Committee.

MN: And who were the three?

RO: There was Sue, Hirotaka Sugawa, and myself. And when we arrived, I could see that they were running late. So I turned to Sue and Hiro, and I said, "We're not going to testify. We're just gonna submit our written testimony, and then you each have one line. So I went first and I said, "On the way up to the hearing, we passed the National Archives, and I saw 'Past is Prologue' written on the wall. And this is a lesson to us all, that if we do not do anything about the past injustices, we're bound to repeat them." Then Sue, she told the committee that she was a high school graduate when war broke out, and her life was interrupted, and she was carted off to Manzanar, and that she volunteered to make camouflage nets to support the war effort. Last, Hiro, Hiro gets up, and he says, "I want to share a little-known piece of history. That the 442 vets were also a part of the liberation of Dachau, but the U.S. Army took 'em out of the picture, because how were they going to deal with the paradoxical question where their parents and siblings are in American concentration camps?" It was all over. But we had problems on the Senate side.

MN: So on the Senate side, who prepared the companion bill to Mel Levine's bill? Which senator...

RO: The lead was gonna be Senator Cranston.

MN: Okay. So now you're in Washington to testify before the Senate, you're having breakfast with the L.A. city lobbyist. What does he tell you and what do you do about it?

RO: Mike Gauge had been fighting us not only in city council, but now within the mayor's office, and that's where the big fight shifted. And that while I was already in Washington with Sue, he sends communication to our city lobbyist that, "No, Rose cannot testify, and that you cannot use her, the mayor's written testimony." So I turned to the lobbyist, Jim Sealy, a wonderful guy who has a lot of guts, I worked with him on legislation for many years. I said to him, "Sorry. Tell 'em that the Senate testimony didn't arrive in time. So would you make forty-five copies of my House testimony, and I'll carry it up to the committee." So we just went ahead.

MN: You know, Jim Sealy could have got into a lot of trouble for doing that. Did you have to... how hard was it to convince him to get that copied?

RO: You know, at a certain point, you have to decide you don't give a damn. And even if it means your job, and it's quite liberating. But the hard part of this is, as I said, the fight was in the mayor's office. My office, my staff, was also negatively impacted. We would work on a gang conference, we have five hundred people coming, and then the new deputy mayor getting orders from the former says, "The mayor's not gonna appear." Well, that works out. I asked the City Attorney to do the keynote, and we've always been friends, and that friendship lasted. So when I came back from the Clinton administration, he appointed me on the police commission. So some good things came out of that. But we suffered in a lot of ways. I could remember the day that I buried my mother, and I came back to the mayor's office, and they said, "Go see the deputy mayor." And he said, "We're gonna move your office to Piper Tech." That's the city garage. And I said, "I buried my mother today. I don't want to talk to you." I'm not one of these people that goes to the mayor or Papa to complain, but I did go see the mayor and I said, "Man, that man did not got any kind of decent sensibilities here." But fortunately for the support of a lot of people, most of the people were intimidated when the deputy mayor or the new deputy mayor is opposed, they started backing away. And lot of people joined the deputy mayor saying, "Why you need to do that? Why can't we do something else?" And this is where I'm indebted to Jeff Matsui. Jeff is someone that hasn't gotten any kind of credit for the community, but he's always in there taking care of Little Tokyo, whether it was where East West Players sits, that was gonna become a childcare facility, widening of the north side of First Street. But he laid his body between other execs and the mayor's office. And in this case, Jeff was right there. Never stepped away. Now the new deputy mayor and the former president of DWP, were gonna do everything they could to stop the passage of this at the Senate level. And poor Cranston's office was being, you know, lobbied by DWP, a powerful, powerful entity. And then we just, everything that was moving forward came to a screeching halt.

MN: And at one point, actually, Cathy Lacey from Cranston's office was told she could no longer call you. How did you get around that?

RO: They did everything to keep us from moving the bill forward. And so Cathy was forbidden from speaking to me. So we used... what is her name?

MN: Martha Davis?

RO: Martha Davis from the Save Mono Lake Committee, and she became our go-between, and she would talk to Cathy, and then Cathy... then they would talk to Sue, Sue would talk to me or whatever. But any event, we were not got going anywhere. So I suggested that why don't we draft some neutral language? Why don't we have somebody, a professor or some expert, develop some neutral language that would, everyone can sign off on. Any event, one day, Jeff gave me some language that mayor gave her, he got that from Mike Gauge and DWP. And I looked at it, and I said, "What? This is a DWP protection act. This is ridiculous." So I called a friend of mine, his name is Bill Hing. He was my assistant on the Immigration Commission, and at that time he was a professor at Sanford Law School. And I said, "Do you have any water experts up there?" He said, "Two." "One from L.A.?" He said, "Yes." I says, "Tell him to call me." And we spoke and I said, "I'm gonna fax you some language, and I want you to tell me whether it was yours." Some time passes, and he calls and he acknowledges that it was not. So I told the mayor, and the mayor said, "Call Cranston." And the bill passed, as you know.

MN: You know, throughout this whole ordeal, I mean, you didn't get moved into Piper Tech, but you still had to move your office. Did your staff say, "Rose, let's just back away from Manzanar"?

RO: I'm always very appreciative of... it was their fight. My fight was their fight.

<Begin Segment 7>

MN: Let's go back to Manzanar, sorry. Was it the Manzanar Advisory Commission that hired the first superintendent Ross Hopkins, the Manzanar Advisory Commission?

RO: What about them?

MN: Did they hire Ross Hopkins?

RO: No, no, the Park Service.

MN: But you folks had a say in it. Is that correct?

RO: No. Actually, Ross was the first superintendent, and... may I say something about Ross?

MN: Sure, sure.

RO: Ross, his father served in the Pacific War, and he was subject to death threats, and it was affecting his health, and he fought and he hung in there with us. And the national JACL wanted to give him an award, and he doesn't like awards, so I accepted on his behalf. And I was given a minute, and I said that Ross's father served in the Pacific and died, and yet Ross, although he was subject to death threats, could make distinctions on why we fought to preserve, to make certain that this story can be told for generations to come, so that others can learn to make distinctions.

MN: And you also mentioned that Ross Hopkins was not a typical bureaucrat.

RO: No.

MN: Give us an example of what he did that was, you know, didn't go up the chain of command.

RO: Well, you know, he actually didn't come from the interpretive side, I think he comes from the maintenance side. So he was much more of a can-do guy, and not a bureaucrat. And this is where he, when they discovered that there are some valuable artifacts in the dump, then he would -- this is before e-mails -- he would send me scribbled faxes about, "We need to expand the boundary to include that in the designation." So this is when I, we would call Bob Matsui. His office is always open to us, his staff is very responsive, and it was nothing. I just said, "We need five hundred feet expanded for the boundaries," it's done. Bob is not someone that got a lot of credit for redress or any of his support. He sort of low-keyed things, but he was amazing.

MN: Now I'm gonna stop back a little bit, and there's this huge rock that sits in front of the interpretive center, and I understand you are the one that picked that rock, and you're the one that also came up with the wording. Can you tell us the story behind that?

RO: Well, as I mentioned, the Park Service wanted to designate Manzanar as a national historic landmark. And there was a time crunch. And the community has differing views about how we describe camp: "relocation," "concentration," "internment." And so I talked to Manzanar Committee, the JACL, other community leaders, and they came up with all these different points of view. And yet they wanted to pour the bronze, and I needed to make a decision. So I said, "Make it Manzanar." So if you go in front of the interpretive center today, you'll see a rock with the sign "Manzanar." And Dennis Nishikawa, of Councilman David Cunningham's office, worked with me on, on selecting the rock and going with Councilman Cunningham to the dedication. That was awful; the worst ride ever. In a DWP helicopter with him smoking all the way, trying to get into the passage. [Laughs] It was awful.

MN: Okay. Now, by Manzanar's entrance, there's a Blue Star Highway sign. Can you tell us how the idea to have a Blue Star Highway sign came about?

RO: Well, actually, that's Tom Ochi's idea. You know, we go up to the Sierras regularly, and we stop at rest stops, and there's one where there is a Blue Star Highway sign. And it's located in areas where soldiers had volunteered to work in the armed services. So Tom said, "You know, Rose," he said, "nobody, from the beginning, they assumed that there, that those folks that were interned were Japanese, and it never occurred to them that they would be American soldiers." And so he says, "If we just designated it a Blue Star Highway, people will know immediately." So Sue approached the Garden Clubs of America, and they embraced the idea. And in about a year, we had a wonderful pilgrimage. We had American Legions from around the area and from Los Angeles, and it was very visual, that now we have come together, and the community as a whole, not just the supporters, see the benefits of Manzanar.

MN: Now, you also mention Mas Okui a lot. Can you tell me how Mas Okui contributed to Manzanar?

RO: Once the bill passed, then there was, it was a advisory commission to Manzanar National Historic Site. And it was, the legislation kind of laid out representation from different Native Americans, local community, former internees. Mas Okui, at the time, teacher at the L.A. Unified School District, he had been interned as a young boy, and he served. Actually, every year on the pilgrimage, Mas volunteers, and he rides up with the teachers and he shares his experiences. But Mas is very famous in another way. He's a famous fly fisherman. He often donates his services for good community causes.

<Begin Segment 8>

MN: Okay, I'm gonna shift into redress now.

RO: Okay.

MN: Okay. So let's just start on redress. Floyd Shimomura was then National JACL president and he contacted you. How did you get to know Floyd? How did you get to know Floyd Shimomura?

RO: Probably from Asian Bar. I had started the Japanese American Bar Association in Los Angeles, and then there have been other minority bars that sort of kind of come together, and I believe I met Floyd through that. Because at that time, while I was a member of the East L.A. JACL chapter, I was not really involved.

MN: Now, why did Floyd want you on the National JACL board?

RO: It's kind of unusual. One, I think it's because he's young, and two, their top priority was passage of redress legislation. And he knew that I had served on the Carter Commission, and that I knew all the top judiciary senators and house members, and he thought that I could help, and plus, that I had worked on legislation in city, and that I could bring that expertise.

MN: Now, you worked very closely with Min Yasui. How was that working relationship like?

RO: With Min Yasui?

MN: Uh-huh.

RO: Well, you know, he was someone that I admired. He had been involved in civil rights in Denver and nationally, and so we have connected even before JACL. I... you know, I can recall there was one concern, that there wouldn't be enough monies to pay for all the settlements, and I had suggested that you stagger the payments by age, and then that went forward. So there were opportunities where I could use my legislative background. But it was quite an experience being on the JACL board. I remember my first meeting, one gentleman said, "That's pretty astute for you, a woman." I said, "Oh, okay." It's about a three-day meeting. The Sunday afternoon when this fellow makes a very brilliant observation, I interrupted and I said, "Denny, that was quite good." [Laughs] Anyway, I try to have, make good.

MN: Okay. Now, you also ran for national president of the JACL. Can you tell us how that campaign went?

RO: How the campaign --

MN: Yeah.

RO: it was very difficult. I think, I think that there was a very positive response from younger women, younger males, but generational folks, male or female, had a little problem. Any event, it was a very close election, but in the end, while there were some irregularities and all, my husband pulled me aside and he said, "You can help redress, you don't need to be here." And so we left. And I continued to work on redress in my individual capacity.

MN: So no hard feelings between you and JACL because of that.

RO: No, actually, the gentleman who won, Harry Kajihara, was a fine, fine fellow, and supported their efforts in any way I could.

<Begin Segment 9>

MN: Now, when you were helping on the redress effort, you visited at Congressman Rodino's office on a different matter, on immigration. [Interruption] Share with us how that meeting went.

RO: Well, actually, in my work for the city, I would go into Washington from time to time, so it gives me an opportunity to visit or push my agendas, whatever. And one trip, stopped by to see Congressman Rodino, and they were furiously trying to pass some major immigration legislation. This is well after the Reagan administration, which included amnesty. And I stopped by, actually, on redress, but he said to me, "Rose," he says, "we have a stalemate here. Your friends," and he's referring to Maldef, "are not going for any of our language." And I said, "You know, the mood and the climate in Los Angeles is getting very, very hard. INS is just running around stopping anyone, I mean, Japanese tourists in Little Tokyo." And I said, "you know, maybe you need to talk to them and ask them not, 'What do you want?' but, 'What will you be willing to settle for at this stage?'" Any event, that conversation went on, and the laws did go forward, and major changes and overhaul of immigration policy occurred back then, and it was considered difficult there as it is going to be now.

MN: And at the end of the meeting, you brought up redress. And what did --

RO: Well, one of the things he said to me, he said, "Rose," he said, "why aren't our friends, congressmen, not pushing redress?" And I said to him, "Well, as far as the Japanese American members, you know, they are not in safe districts. They're getting backlash, I can read it in the Japanese American newspapers, that they're being targeted by hate-mongers. And so what we need to have is somebody to champion redress that comes from a safe district." So he appointed Barney Frank from Massachusetts, and he moved the measure along.

MN: Now, I'm gonna ask you about Senator Alan Simpson. Earlier you mentioned that you had met him through the Select Commission, and you regularly, when you went to the Hill for your job, you also dropped in on him. And one time, you were looking at this painting.

RO: Yeah, one time I was waiting in his outer office, and he came out, and I had said, "The Grand Tetons." And he said, "How would a big city girl like you know the Grand Tetons?" And I said, "Well, my husband's uncle Fred paints there every summer." And he said, "Not the famous Fred Ochi?" And I said, "Yes." And any event, you know, every chance I got, I would tell him -- 'cause he was the minority whip -- "What are you doing? What can you do?" and all. And he was just very much supportive. He worked with his old friend Norm Mineta, the friendship that began in Heart Mountain, behind barbed wires and maintained through the years. And together, they really helped to make history. I think history is really a personal, personal connections that make the difference. And I wanted to thank him, so I asked Uncle Fred, who's my husband's uncle, whether he would give me a painting, a painting of a red barn in Spencers Mountain, to give to the senator. And I was able to do that on Fred's behalf.

MN: Now, how did you hear that the redress bill had gone to the desk of President Ronald Reagan?

RO: Well, Skip Enders, who worked in judiciary for Rodino called me. I was in the mayor's office and he said, "Rose, the bill has gone to the White House." And at this point, while everyone that has been involved in this effort, we have never really had an indication from the White House what was going to happen. I thought, well, I need to get some information to him. So I raced over to the Pacific Citizen office, where George Johnson was about ready to leave to go to the JACL convention. And I said, "Stop. Find the article, the Orange County Register article about Captain Ronald Reagan." Captain Ronald Reagan presented, posthumously, an award to Sadao Munemori's parents. And I said, "He needs to see this." So I raced over, and George found the article, and I faxed it to a number Skip provided. I said, "Give me somebody that will make certain that it will be put under the President's nose." And at this time, we didn't know whether they'll veto it, let it go into effect, or whether they would have a quiet signing ceremony or big public event. And in a quick minute, we learned that there's gonna be a signing ceremony in the White House and that we were invited. I got the call from Senator Simpson's office, and I went out on a red eye. And that was kind of a very special moment for all of us, so many, so many people who worked on this redress effort. And I was just happy to be a part, and to be in that room. And while I, we were standing and cheering as he was signing, and he goes into his remarks, he mentions my name, "Rose Ochi sent me this article." And he proceeds to read every word, but he changed it. He didn't mention the name of the army captain, and he read the entire text, and then he closes, "And the name of the army captain was Ronald Reagan." So we broke out in applause and cheers, and it was just a very special moment for everyone, and a very, very special moment for me.

MN: I know you said it's a very special moment, but on a personal level, what were your thoughts when you were there, and all the, you know, your parents are already passed away. What were you thinking when the redress bill was actually signed? Do you regret that your parents weren't alive still?

RO: You know, it was a different kind of a relationship with my family. We never really talked about redress, but we, they didn't really, don't even know what I was up to. They knew that I was always busy. The only conversation I had with my father was when I was in law school and I heard about Korematsu case and I mentioned it to him. And I said, "What did you do?" And he said, "Shigata ga nai." And so like probably most parents, they suffered in silence. And they didn't know what I did. They didn't know much about all my activities. I'm not someone that comes home... I didn't, it was, it's not something we really shared. And they know I'm doing stuff because, you know, their friends would say, "Oh, your daughter did this," or, "Your daughter did that." But Rafu made me famous. [Laughs] But what I liked about Rafu best was when I'm a AA basketball star and all, they have my picture there. Because basketball was very important to us.

<Begin Segment 10>

MN: Well, since you mentioned basketball, let's talk about your other Asian American or Japanese American involvement. You were very active in basketball.

RO: Well, yes and no. I did not hang around with the Japanese Americans in high school. I sort of kind of hung out with everyone. But then, except basketball. And it wasn't something I -- I was athletic, but I didn't really play basketball. But they had these leagues and they needed me to join 'em 'cause I'm tall. And, but I was not a basketball player, so I was a guard. And in the old days, there's a line in the middle, and the guards stay on one side, you don't shoot. And, but we were AA All Star, we would go play basketball in central Cal, and they take basketball seriously there. The hotel, fill a gym, and they come running out wearing basketball uniforms and whatever. And there we are with our little tight shorts. [Laughs] Too tight to even scramble for a ball. But it was a wonderful, unifying, enjoyable experience. I think I mentioned earlier that's how I met my husband.

MN: And then was your other major Japanese American involvement running for Nisei Week queen?

RO: Oh, that's not something I wanted to do, that's not my thing. But my mother, my mother wanted to, she wanted me to go to Japan, and I think that there was a Japan trip that was tied to, and, but ultimately I was able to send my mother to Japan to go back to see her sister.

MN: You're actually still involved with Nisei Week. You are invited every year to be a part of, a model in the fashion show. Can you tell me how that came about?

RO: I don't know, but it's nice because it gives you incentive to trim down and not make a fool of yourself. [Laughs] But my main reason is you connect with designers, people like Tadashi. And so he's so generous. Every year I go see him, maybe I can get three evening outfits so that -- I would buy them -- but at cost. And so those connections are important. But it's a nice way to stay in touch with the community.

MN: Do you want to share with us your foray with Flower Drum Song?

RO: [Laughs] Oh... when I was at UCLA, I was a PE major. PE teachers were a very big influence in my life, and in junior high school, they said that I had leadership potential. They may not notice it in the classroom, but they did out in the field. And the same thing at Roosevelt High School. But PE? It was a way to work and play. [Laughs] Put on short and tennis shoes. I didn't want to go to an office and sit at a desk, and I liked being around young people.

MN: And how did you get involved with Flower Drum Song?

RO: Oh, Flower Drum Song. Oh, Flower Drum Song. As a PE major, you have to take dance, so I did take some dance. And we heard that they were auditioning for Flower Drum Song, and I thought I would try to get a part. And all these professionals that came from the Broadway show were, they were ready. And we just bumped around a way, and so they selected me to be a showgirl, and I was gonna be the Swedish in a burlesque scene. [Singing] "I'm a vagabond sailor," and I'm supposed to come in and do my bump and grind. And then they sent me to costuming, and this designer named Irene, she said, "Take off all your clothes." And then somebody came in and started stitching sequences. I said, "Oh, oh." Anyway, I went to the first rehearsal, and that was important ultimately, because I ended up getting residual checks for years. But I, you know, Khrushchev had complained about Shirley MacLane's costuming and can-can, and I thought, "Oh, wow, I'll be in trouble because I want to be a schoolteacher." And it turns out well that I dropped out, because Tommy Ochi, who became my husband, and his friends, were all a part of the nightclub audience, and I would have had to come out and do my bump. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 11>

MN: Okay, now I'm gonna get back to a little serious matter. Let's go back to Manzanar.

RO: Manzanar.

MN: Sue Kunitomi Embrey, she passed away in May 2006, and you were one of the few non-family members to see her before she passed away. Can you share with us what your last conversation with Sue was like?

RO: Well, I actually had seen her the day before. And this is Mother's Day, and her son came from Chicago, and daughter-in-law, to visit her, because now she was in intensive care. And he called me and he said, could I come to the hospital? I said, "Well, I was there yesterday." And he said, "Please come." And so I went in to see her, and I said, "Sue," and her eyes kind of flickered, and I think she knew that I was there. So I just kind of reminisced with her about our journey. And, but one of the things I said to her was, "Sue, I will promise that your dedication and your perseverance efforts will always be remembered. Anyway, she passed that night. And since then, I've had opportunities to talk about her involvement, and the involvements of others. I talked earlier about Keith and Ross Hopkins, and there are others. Recently, I spoke at Ken Burns' program. And Ken did a special program on the "pocket parks," little small parks. But special parks, and one of 'em was started at the initiation of a Japanese photographer. And there were others that involved Japanese immigrants. And my piece was to talk about internment, establishment of Manzanar. And in my message, my message was, "Like Ken Burns, it's important that we acknowledge the citizens, the public members that worked to establish these parks." And I would say, without any disrespect, park people come on board, and they're gonna look at it like not necessarily history, but instead, approach it as a park of a rock, mountain, a lake, and that they, they don't necessarily capture the history of the community that was affected. And so it's been great experience in this particular park to be a part of the development of the exhibits, and continue to be so. Recently there was a dedication of the Block 14 project, and that is the first time, publicly, the Park Service, the new superintendent, a Japanese American named Les Inafuku, acknowledged my role as the lawyer which supported Sue in this effort. It wasn't important to me necessarily that I be acknowledged, but that up to that time, the Park Service referred to Sue's role as leader of the Manzanar pilgrimages. The pilgrimages were a very important part of the education, not only of the community at large, but importantly, the activists who can carry this effort forward in the years to come. So I appreciated that acknowledgement by Les, but we want, in keeping with my promise to Sue, that we want the full story told. And in her book, she acknowledged my role and Bill Michaels', but as the story continues to unfold, I want to make certain that stories of the role of Keith Bright and others who suffered, actually greatly, and stood in the fire to make this happen.

MN: What other efforts are you doing to win support locally in Inyo County?

RO: Oh, okay, we're gonna go back now. I talked earlier about reaching out to pioneer descendants and to Native Americans and all. You know, I'll tell you one story. My husband's a fisherman, and so we go up to Owens Valley when we can. And in the town of Independence, there is a hotel -- not a hotel, a coffee shop, Bobo's. And one day Tom and I were having breakfast there, and this is at a time when there was a lot of hostility and opposition in the valley. And here, this Japanese American looking guy comes in, and he goes up to the counter and he shakes hands with everyone, looks like the regulars, and I said to Tommy, "I'm gonna go talk to him." Tommy said, "We're gonna hit the road." I said, "Give me a minute." So I take out my little mayor's card, and I go over to him and I said, "My name is Rose Ochi, I'm working for the Manzanar Committee, and I need your help. Everybody seems to know you and like you. What do you do?' He says, "I'm the dishwasher." [Laughs] Anyway, but no stone unturned.

<Begin Segment 12>

MN: So you were basically just talking to anybody you can while you were going up there. Now, during the President Bill Clinton's administration, you, on the fortieth anniversary of the school desegregation, you went to Arkansas and you were able to visit Rohwer. Was that your first time back at Rohwer?

RO: That was my first, first trip.

MN: How did that feel like, going back?

RO: Well, it was... first, I have to say, it was a very special occasion to be invited to be a part of the administration's delegation, was something that I was very, very pleased about. Our agency that I headed up at that time was the Race Mediators for the Central High case. It had been hung up in the courts and stalled, and one of our mediators resolved all the remaining issues. So the, Susan Weber Wright, the judge, had invited us as well. But I used the occasion to do a personal pilgrimage, my first pilgrimage to Rohwer. And it's terrible, I can't remember his name, but there was a Japanese family that was interned in Rohwer, and they decided to remain, and they live in Little Rock, couple of brothers, and they married local gals, and they're very much a part of the fabric of the community. He drove me to Rohwer, and I had lunch with this wonderful woman who has been collecting Rohwer memorabilias. People have been sending it to her over the years, her name is Rosalie Gould, and her family owned land in that area.

MN: Now, what was your thoughts when you went to that camp site?

RO: Well, you have to remember, I was just a very little girl when I was interned. And so I can't say that I have any memories, but I did see the chimney and I saw the railroad tracks and all, but I didn't really have any memories. But I did have a lot of strong feelings that emerged, and that's when I recalled when I was lined up to be named by Rose. And I talked about that earlier, but I think while it was on one hand devastating to your psychic, as I believed, it became a source of empowerment.

MN: Did you wish that Rohwer could have the same status as Manzanar?

RO: Having said... I see Manzanar as the flagship. It's good to see other designations, and I see the efforts by many to preserve and protect their, all the confinement sites. I think that they're not necessarily all suitable to develop interpretive centers and become full, pull parts of, what is it, segment of the Park Service. And that was the determination that was made by the initial feasibility study they looked, to look at all the sites.

<Begin Segment 13>

MN: Now, during the Clinton administration, you broke some barriers. I wanted to ask you, overall, what were some of the proudest achievements that you've been able to accomplish as an Asian American, as a female?

RO: Well, I was associate director of the White House Drug Policy Office, and I oversaw the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas program. It's a very macho program. And I think some of the barriers is that people generally did not see Asian, even males, in leadership roles. And I took on the responsibility of an agency where the drug czar knew me from surveying on Attorney General Levy's minority advisory commission. He knew my beliefs, my positions, and he trusted me. He moved High Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas program from the supply side of the office into my shop because he wanted to develop a program that engages not just the federal or the dealing with international interdiction, but he wanted to develop programs that involved domestic law enforcement, state and local prevention and education. And I brought a background of doing a lot of that in the mayor's office. Other barriers... well, the, after my two years were up and the new drug czar wanted to select his own people, Ms. Reno asked me to come to the Department of Justice.

MN: And at that, at the Department of Justice, how high did you go up?

RO: Huh?

MN: What level did you achieve at the Department of Justice?

RO: It's a level of assistant attorney general.

MN: And I understand you were the first Asian American to --

RO: Woman.

MN: -- woman to reach that level.

RO: Yes.

MN: Was that a very, since you were the first, was there a lot of pressure, everybody watching you?

RO: I don't know. It didn't occur to me. We were just overwhelmed. There were church arsons, you know, our purview involved so many of the President's initiatives, the Initiative on Race, hate crimes, church arson I mentioned, race-based justice. So all, a lot of the priorities at the Department of Justice as well as in the White House involved CRS. So I may be the representative of the Department of Justice to a White House meeting planning the Race Initiative. I can tell the story with, our first meeting, we met with the President and the Vice President, and Mrs. Clinton, the First Lady. And they were talking about their thoughts, expectations about Initiative on Race. And here's this room full of White House executive and middle staffers, and I'm the only non-White House person in the room. And I have a tablet, and I'm listening, and I take notes, and I'm the only person taking notes. And I thought, "Well, that doesn't look too good, I come from Justice, I'm taking the notes." But I want to know what they are saying. Well, I went back, and I wrote a book on President's Initiative on Race, kind of a how-to book on racial dialogues. And you know, at that time, the planning process came to a halt. There's a lot of disagreements about how they wanted to proceed. And one day, this young lady named Sylvia Matthews, who was shepherding this project, stopped me and she said, "The President loved it," my how-to book. And one of my treasures from serving in the administration is a signed copy, "Thank you, Rose." But we went on and held hundreds of dialogues around the country. The goal was not to talk to them, let people come together across racial lines and try to resolve the differences that divide them.

<Begin Segment 14>

MN: Now, Rose, you know, today, you're the executive director of the California Forensic Science Institute. Most people are retired by now. They're fishing, you know, or something like that. How do you keep yourself going?

RO: Well, I retired a number of times. I retired from the city before I joined the administration, and then when I left the Clinton administration. An exciting thing was happening. A collaboration of the university, LAPD, and L.A. sheriff to build a crime lab here on this campus, and I couldn't resist. The President wanted to create an institute, and I had relationships with Justice, sheriff, the chief, and he felt that I can bring everyone to work together and make this happen. We've just celebrated nine years, and we're making a significant difference here contributing towards this partnership and the way of research, training, and supporting career development. But I'm not ready to retire.

MN: And, Rose, I know you've always been sort of the, a pioneer. You're usually the only Asian American or the only female in the room. What words of encouragement would you give to, you know, other girls and females coming up, and to Asian Americans?

RO: Couple of things. One, number one, I truly believe that... I had a very wonderful relationship with my father. He was an Issei father, he's stern, but I wasn't afraid of him. He's a good man. And there's a lot of, you know, bluster and everything. And if you're not afraid of your father, you're not gonna be afraid of people in authority, and you can challenge authority, and I have done that over the years. And I also had a very good relationship with a brother, and so I like men, you know. Not just male-female relationships, I like men as friends. I have a lot of, maybe more male friends than female friends. Basketball, go back to basketball, you know. I was a guard. I didn't shoot, I didn't score, so, you know, I didn't really have the bragging rights, but it was okay. My personality suited helping to make it happen, and that's a nice, there's nice carryover in working in collaborations with people so that you have a win-win. When I testified before the Wartime Commission, as I mentioned, this is something Aiko asked me to do last minute, so I didn't matter what I was gonna say. I didn't have time to prepare, so I just shot my mouth off. [Laughs] And I mentioned that internment had some lasting psychological impacts on our community as a whole and as individuals. And that, you know, fishermen, farmers, are all very, very generous of sharing their bounty. And then when you're all, you lose all your possessions and then you are kept, and that there's no way to increase the supply, somehow it becomes a zero sum game. And somebody else's game comes from you.

And the term "crabs in the barrel," I think one of the problems in the community is we could have done much better is, and if you look at other groups and how they can even forget their differences and work together, we spend a lot of time going after each other. And this comes from, I believe, the internment and this whole zero sum concept. Somebody's gain is your loss. And somehow, I recognize that, and I try to stay away from that. And my biggest contributions is not necessarily all the programs and policies that I have been involved in at the White House, in the mayor's office, it's the people that I've had, the young people that I've been able to groom, now people are judges and they're city council members and leaders, business leaders and all. That's why I like to be here at the university. Now I have a, all these young folks, I'm not a good influence. This young lady that started with me in her sophomore year, and she wanted to be a criminalist, she's now a criminalist, but now she wants to be a lawyer. But my opportunity to work with young people has been very gratifying. As you know, I did not work for money. You know, Reggie for ten thousand dollars a year with phenomenal hours, but it's been very rewarding. And when I think about my father's answer to me when I'd ask about internment and he said, "Shigata ga nai," you know, I don't ever want to feel that way. I always want to feel that there's something that could be done. And I feel, in small measure, I have been able to do a bit. And so I feel very good about that. And I say, at times, I know that Takayo's very happy, too.

<Begin Segment 15>

MN: Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add?

RO: Oh, I could, but you know what? People got to go. I wanted to say something about my dad, and I said something about Dad, and that's good enough. He just had a lot of bluster. You heard my earlier stories about, yeah, so...

MN: He passed away when you started in the mayor's office.

RO: You know, I have to tell you -- I'm just talking, you know -- they come from Japan, right? I mean, when the emperor's carriage goes by, they have to hit the ground, right? So then when the prince comes to Los Angeles on their first trip and I'm invited to be a guest at the Music Center and go through the line, and my mother along with all these Issei women outside waving flags. So it's been a long, long distance that our families traveled.

MN: Did they know you were inside?

RO: Oh, yeah. My mother knew I was. So they don't know a lot about what I do, but then they'll hear.

MN: Oh, yeah, that's quite an honor to meet the emperor.

RO: But I don't know whether I told you about, but I'm willing to say things that are not, not necessarily welcome. You know, I had the opportunity to meet with Nakasone, prime minister, and at a time where there was a lot of anti-Japanese sentiments, whether it was around imports or buying up all this real estate in downtown. And I told them that they need to be mindful. Mindful of eroding the goodwill that we've earned over many years of hardship and sacrifice.

MN: Do you remember what his reaction to that was?

RO: He listened, but I will say this: at the time, I was vice chair of the corporate board for United Way. And we, at that time, started reaching out to -- with the mayor's help -- Japanese business executives who ordinarily were not joining those types of boards. And they began making contributions to the campaign.

MN: The campaign to United Way.

RO: For United Way, yeah. Part of -- since we're going backwards -- part of why I've been able to say things where typically Japanese Americans are not outspoken, I think it's also a creature of internment. And 'cause it turns everything upside down, and the parents become not in charge, they rely on their students -- their students, their children to be their voice. And I think my older sister, the birth order, older sister and brother, they're more traumatized because they gave up a lot. I was so young, I was four, so, you know, to me, it was an adventure as long as you're there with your parents. But when you come back, then you need to, to talk to some public official about this, that, or whatever. They give me the phone. And the story that they always talk about is my job was to make the sandwiches for lunch. And one day, I was trying to make sandwiches, and there wasn't enough bologna to make six sandwiches. So I go back to the store, and I tiptoe up to the butcher's counter -- this is old days -- and I took the bologna and I went, "This is not enough bologna to make six sandwiches." And so he gave me enough, and I went home. Probably it was fine. But they would send me on these missions. And so I think the advocacy somehow, I don't know.

MN: But, I mean, you know, when you were in the mayor's office and you were getting all this pressure from everybody else to accept the city park instead of Manzanar, weren't you ever afraid you were gonna get fired?

RO: That's what I said earlier is that once you reach that threshold and you know that that's gonna happen next, he took away authority, starts taking away projects, start denying access to the mayor, just one thing or another, and then moved us out, I can't remember, to the fifteen floor where I had this huge, spacious mezzanine suite. But once you decide that, "Hey, that's okay, you can have my job." It's, there's nothing left. And it has less to do with Manzanar, I don't know, probably some of my pride and values. It's that East L.A. or whatever it is. But I'm gonna win.

MN: And you did.

<Begin Segment 16>

RO: You know, I was talking about that "crabs in a barrel." One of the things, I've never been a joiner. I can't... and the whole thing about the JACL, I don't like to spend my time jostling on the kind of internal politics. It just keeps you from moving forward. So I'd like to help groups as a pro bono counsel and all, but I don't want to be immersed in the dynamics within an organization. But part of it, I think, pretty unique to the Japanese American community is they spend a lot of time taking each other down. And it's just, just senseless and fruitless, and I think that people have to recognize that this is a vestige of our incarceration, and that then we need to as a community speak openly about that.

MN: And you actually are very unusual because you, you kind of help people come, rise up. And so that's very unusual within the Japanese American community because I do know that we do like to keep people down. I know what you're saying. But I see you and you go somewhere and you go into the Clinton administration or whoever, and you're just --

RO: I'm a bootstrapper.

MN: You keep...

RO: One thing I do is I work very hard and I get in, but I hold the door open. And I just bring 'em in, and many folks, Ron Wakabayashi is now the director of the Community Relations Service, doing a phenomenal job here in Los Angeles. Byron Wong, he's now still at Justice Department. Wherever I am, in the mayor's office, in Justice, White House, I'm somehow, I'm having a good time. "Come on, come on."

MN: That's very unusual.

RO: I think power shares, power grows. And I think the reason why I've been able to -- I collect back, you know. There's always, there's somehow, it's family. And there's some reciprocal responsibilities. So if you work for me, I adopt you, actually, almost.

MN: Just like you're adopting a lot of the East West Players?

RO: Huh?

MN: Like you're adopting a lot of the East West Players people here?

RO: [Laughs]

Off-camera voice: I think that you should, when she retired from the city, there was about five hundred people there, and a lot of 'em they know, they aren't all Japanese community. They're United Way, they're the Mexican American political people.

RO: African American.

Off-camera voice: African Americans, you know, and they come from different areas. They didn't know each other, but they didn't know that they're connected to her. She spreads herself --

RO: Well, actually, actually, a lot of my work is not in the Japanese American community. Immigration took me to Latino, I was a champion for amnesty. Cruz Reynoso, they were voted out of the California supreme court, and he was looking at a district court federal appointment. So I told him, "I'll be the bad-ass and I'll champion amnesty." And I climbed all over, again, when Reagan administration took over, then the mood towards amnesty became very negative. There was a day where they said, "If you break residence, you will not be eligible." And I just stood up and I said, "Okay, are we saying we don't want any Mexicans to participate in the amnesty program?" I said, "You know they're gonna break residence, 'cause they're in the nature of seasonal work, their closeness to the family, the proximity to the border." I said, "Is that what we want?" And then, you know, I think I mentioned that before I went off to the Immigration Commission, I was intimidated, I know that these are the real senators and the congressmen, but I read in Kenny Han's office that, "With courage, you're the majority." And I just believe that. And so I, I just spoke out. and, you know, when you say the truth, people back off.

<Begin Segment 17>

MN: What is this ID program that Tommy had been talking about earlier? This was regarding immigration? Do you want to share --

RO: Well, I think the reason why I'm able to make friends on the Immigration Commission is I believe, you know, I grab an issue, and I don't worry about, is it a Democratic issue or Republican issue. So at one point, they wanted to recommend universal ID cards. Well, as a liberal, I'm against that. As a conservative, Alan Simpson definitely would be against it. So the immigration issue is such as that you had kind of interesting bedfellows, and you keep jumping out of, and switching beds. And so you don't take personal. I can jump on somebody one thing, on one thing, but it's not personal, and you can align on another. And this is why it was interesting for me because I would take on Civiletti, the attorney general, 'cause maybe they would hand him a recommendation, and he doesn't even have the backup information. And then I'll react to it, and I'll call on people to give me information that I need, even when I don't know anything, I says, "Well, tell me," and I'll point to someone. And he didn't like that very much, you know, to be embarrassed at pushing him to do something when he didn't get the votes and all. But most people don't take anything personal. And it's again, as I said to Chief Davis, skins and shirts.

MN: But, I mean, when you took on Civiletti, did you think your career, having a job at Department of Justice was not ever gonna happen?

RO: No, no. You know, when you do anything, you really can't be worried about tomorrow, 'cause then you just become petrified, catatonic. I don't know what I am. I get amnesia. Somehow, I didn't do things right to be where I am, but somehow I must have done something right. And what I have to say it is that I forge strong friendships. It's like I worked really hard for Terry Hatter on Serrano vs. Priest, and then he'll want to take me to mayor's office. When he is elevated to a bench, then he recommends that I succeed him. You know, I served on the Minority Advisory Council, and the chair was Leigh Brown. He was the police commissioner in Atlanta, but he was busy with all the children's murders. So I had, I took charge, and I led it to fruition. So he knows me, he knows my philosophy, but when he gets the drug czar position, I said, "Hello, I want this job."

Actually, something I want to mention is that I give speeches to people that want appointments, and I tell 'em, you know, you should volunteer or you should write or you should this and that. In my case, all the things that I recommended was not the reason why I was appointed. So all of them are like relations, you know. Leigh Brown knows I could trust her, I know what her philosophy. Ms. Reno knows me from, I visited her to take a look at their drug treatment program, acupuncture in Florida when she was a DA. So I met her and also come and visit some of our gang programs. So she knew me, and then while I was at Drug Policy I involved her in some of our conferences. So when there is an opening at CRS, she knew what she was getting.

MN: Great.

RO: Huh?

MN: Anything else you want to talk about? We're open right now.

RO: It's been a wonderful adventure, and I have to say, I'm not done.

MN: You might start your own company, you said.

RO: Yeah, some day, some day when I... I don't know. When I get hobbies or something else. But there's Don Quixote, you know, I'm ready to go.

MN: Great. Well, thank you.

RO: Thank you.