<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Okay, so let me see if I understand all this, 'cause there's a lot here. So you had a group of five thousand trying to do a class action suit, essentially arguing government duress. And the ACLU decided to do an individual case with Murakami.

TN: Yeah, they're trying to get in on this action. That was the New York and the southern California.

TI: Okay, so they wanted a piece of this action, and you're almost saying that, because they missed the boat on the original incarceration and all that, this was a way for them to sort of get back into the game in some ways.

TN: Yeah, well, see, ACLU wanted to get into, involved in the case. And the northern California was backing, although they never backed us financially, but at least gave us moral support.

TI: And I tried to... and I think what you're saying also was, but the way they were doing it was very different.

TN: Oh, yeah. Well, they tried to, they blamed somebody within the camp, not the government.

TI: Okay. So your case was focusing on the government duress, big picture, and try to do this as a class action.

TN: Yeah.

TI: They took the case, "Well, we're gonna blame a group or some groups in camp," and so it was a very different... so when this was happening, very different strategies, did the two groups ever discuss or try to either join forces or come to some understanding in terms of what...

TN: Because we figured that, Mr. Collins figured that none of these people should be deported, none of these people... everybody's citizenship should be... because it was the government that forced us to evacuate. And after we were evacuated into camp, the government was supposed to protect all these people. If there's any discernments like that, the government should pick those people up and incarcerate them. So they, once you make a mistake like that, the evacuation, then they keep on making mistakes constantly, and forcing people to do things against government. And like in Tule Lake, you could... I realized that... I'm getting thirsty.

TI: Oh, sure, there's water right there. But while you're drinking, so the way I understand it, it's almost like Mr. Collins took the perspective that all these people are innocent, and they should be, their citizenship restored. And probably if the government wanted to go after, maybe an individual, then they should go after individuals. Versus the other group was thinking that each one had to apply separately for their, to restore their citizenship. So a very, very different approach.

TN: Yeah, yeah, different approach. But Mr. Collins figured that the approach, which the ACLU in New York and Los Angeles was doing was appeasing to the government, to save the face of the government. Mr. Collins said, no, the government should not be appeased at all. They're the ones to be blamed for everything that took place. And a lot of them were in Japan, too, they went back to Japan, fifteen hundred people went back to Japan.

TI: So did Mr. Collins ever talk with the lawyers with the ACLU in New York and southern California about this?

TN: Oh, yeah. Wirin even came to San Francisco trying to appease Mr. Collins. They had a big fight, you know. [Laughs]

TI: Were you there when they...

TN: Oh, yeah.

TI: So describe that meeting. What can you remember from that meeting?

TN: Well, Wirin, that was at the beginning of it, he wants to get in on the action, you know, he wants the publicity and all that stuff. And he was trying to make money out of this case, see. So Mr. Collins said, "Well, I don't want to join anything with you. You're not a real civil libertarian." So all these people getting misled by a lot of people.

TI: And so these two lawyers obviously disagreed. How about the community, the Japanese community? How were they kind of...

TN: Well, Mr. Kido, after the war, I remember Mr. Kido in Los Angeles and he said, "The only reason why we couldn't support your program was because we had a tremendous opposition from the Northwest people, especially the veteran groups, they were opposed to renunciants, and we couldn't do anything."

TI: So this is Sab Kido, so the JACL as an organization said, "We can't support the Collins group because of the veterans up in the Northwest, Seattle, Portland area."

TN: Yeah, he told me that they were opposed, they would get out of the JACL program if they supported this, backed up the Tule Lake people. And a lot of Tule Lake people might have caused, you know, made some derogatory statements to those people, too. So they had bitter feeling among themselves.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.