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TI: So you talked a little bit about the process, where you suggested to the administration that they should hold the hearings in Klamath Falls and not in camp. But it sounded like they didn't listen to you and held the hearings in camp. So explain to me what happened next, the hearings and how that went.

TN: Well, at the time of the hearing, I think Mr. Burling was the head of the Justice Department. And he explained to us, to the hearing officers, that these people were evacuated, so they must have a tremendous feeling about evacuation, which was wrong. And if that was the reason why they were renouncing, don't accept those renunciations. So that was the primary motive of the Justice Department, trying not to accept their renunciation at the beginning. But the thing is, we had these organizations that was set up already, and these people were intimidating all these people to renounce, see. They even coached them what to say at the time of the hearing. And it became a pattern, everybody all going. But the real reason why they were renouncing was because they didn't want to be separated from their families, and they were influenced by other people, too.

TI: So let me make sure I understand this. So Mr. Burling, who was sort of the head of the Department of Justice team, his instructions were that essentially, the people at Tule Lake were there almost, like, under duress, that they were there, kind of forced. And that because of that, the Department of Justice lawyers should try to dissuade them from doing this. But countering that, there were these other groups within camp who were encouraging people to renounce, and they were even coaching them in terms of how to, what to say to the lawyers so that they could. And furthermore, a lot of that pressure came from wanting to keep the families together. So is that pretty much...

TN: Yeah. Well, and everybody who renounced, they didn't want, the family didn't want to split up, so they, the family had four children, all four children would renounce, and the parents were aliens, too, see. And the parents would say, "If you became alien, we would be all together." Even if they're deported to Japan, "We'll be together." But here, if you're a citizen, they might be forced to, forced to leave the camp or something like that. They didn't want to be separated because the future was very uncertain in Japan.

TI: And so during this time, what was your role? What did you do at the legal aid office during this process?

BT: Well, a lot of people were stymied, so they were asking me to, advice as to whether to renounce or not. I told them, frankly, "Hang onto your citizenship. It might be not worth anything at the present time, but the time will come when your citizenship will amount to (something)." Because I remember all the Issei had tremendous difficulty before evacuation because they were aliens, they were not citizen, they couldn't acquire land or anything like that, certain type of business. So I said, "If you want to renounce, you could renounce at the time when you get on the ships or you go to Japan. Then hang onto your citizenship." Very few people took my advice. [Laughs]

TI: And do you think a lot of that was that fear that even though you would say that, they still might be separated as families?

TN: Yeah. Well, those things, you know... but there were so many rumors going around, and a lot of people were listening to Japanese broadcasts from Japan. They were able to pick up shortwave radio, and naturally, Japan would have to say, "We're always winning the war," you know. "So America is not telling the truth." But they would never read any... the main thing is they were not educated properly, a lot of people, to read all the periodicals that was available, able to outside newspaper or magazine or things like that, that would be able to tell them who's actually winning the war. [Laughs]

TI: And so for you, what did you read or listen to to get that wider perspective?

TN: Well, I tried to... I was getting Times and Newsweek and all that, Wall Street. The New York Times, I always subscribed to that. I used to read this and I used to show my mother the picture of Mt. Fuji, you know. She said, "Oh, that's full of trick photography." They won't believe it, you know, the submarine, American, U.S. subs going into Tokyo Bay and taking pictures of Mt. Fuji. Some of the people, the Issei people who were intelligent told me that after the battle at Tarawa, that they said there's no way Japan's going to win the war if they're going to be on the defensive like that. Even after the Midway, yeah, they lost so much. But it was hard to convince a lot of people to accept the real fact of life. They were confined in camp for two or three years, you know, you don't know what's going on outside. So if you go out on a seasonal leave or something like that and see how people are living, it would have been a different story. But they confined them so much that then, I think Dillon Myer was a very intelligent fellow. He said, "Even though they renounce their citizenship," he wanted to get them out of the camp. So the Justice Department would have a hard time picking them up. [Laughs]

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.