<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So what would be helpful for me is if you could describe like maybe, with the renunciants, maybe one case. What does one case look like in terms of working with the client, the type of correspondence, how long it would take. Can you kind of go through like one typical case?

TN: Well, in one case, when we started the hearing, we interviewed them, the reason why they renounced. We asked their backgrounds, we asked them whether they joined any of the organizations that was listed by the government, and if they were a member of the organization, the reason why they joined, and what were they doing before the war. Like most of 'em were farmers, and they said, "We left all of our growing crops, and we had to go into camp, and then we had to sell the tractors and all the equipment. So to go outside and start all over again, it would be hopeless." So they thought the life would be better in Japan. "At least we'd be together in our family, as a family."

TI: So you would do this kind of in-depth interview to establish the duress...

TN: Yeah, the duress. Individual case was a little different, every one, so we have to interview everyone. So I interviewed quite a bit, and then roughly prepare an affidavit for them to sign. So I made a trip to Japan to interview quite a bit of people in Japan from Tokyo and Osaka. Wakayama, there was a whole group of people in Wakayama. And Hiroshima, there was a whole mess of 'em.

TI: Now, was there any, sort of, examples or cases where it was hard to get the trust of people, that they weren't sure about whether or not they should work with you or not?

TN: No, they trusted me, yeah. They trusted me. By then, you know, if they don't trust me, they wouldn't even come to me.

TI: So you would go around and do these interviews and then prepare an affidavit.

TN: Yeah.

TI: And then what would happen next?

TN: Then we would submit that -- people in Japan, we made a special arrangement with the American consulate in Japan to accept the... you have to be a sworn statement, so the only way you can do that is to go to the, in front of the consulate and sign the affidavit. And then when we received the affidavit, we submitted it to the Justice Department for review, and if they figured that there was sufficient cause to set the renunciant aside, they would concede the case to us. Then we prefer that judgment for the government to sign and file it with the court. We received a judgment for each individual from the district court and mailed it to every one of these kids. So if there was any dispute, you know, about the renunciation, they were restored initially like she said, citizen like before.

TI: And so that was, that was pretty straightforward if the government signed to concede the case. What happens if they did not concede the case?

TN: Well, the government said, "We'll try those cases." Finally, a lot of people decided to stay in Japan, so they figured that they'd rather stay in Japan. There must have been about ten or twenty of those people. But this is one case where I met Wakayama, Kinzo Wakayama, and he told me that the government forced him to renounce, too. And they had a gun in front of him, says, "I'm not going to renounce." They pulled a gun on him. So he said, "Okay, then, if that's the case, I'll sign." He signed it. And so I don't know whether that was the truth or not, but I told that to Mr. Collins. So made a suggestion to the Justice Department that if Kinzo Wakayama wins the case, everybody get it back. Evidently, the government wouldn't go for it. [Laughs] He was a labor organization leader in San Pedro. He was the head of the Hoshidan.

TI: No, I've read about him. But when you, when you went to trial, I'm guessing there's a lot more paperwork.

TN: We didn't have to file any individual hearings. We all did it on legal affidavit purposes.

TI: But when the government did not concede, though, was there more work then involved?

TN: Oh, yeah. We keep on resubmitting the affidavit. We'd get it all back if it's rejected, so we can do it over again.

TI: Oh, so you'd have to then maybe get more information or change it, edit it, and then send it back?

TN: That's right. Some would be submitted about four or five times, and finally we'd wear them out.

TI: Okay, so that's how you would wear them out, you would just keep going back and back, and finally they would just get that stamp and say, "Go ahead."

TN: Well, gee, we were worn out, too, you know.

TI: Well, so again, so you just talked about the work involved with these cases. So you go interview them, you prepare an affidavit, you have to get a sworn affidavit, then you submit it, and then sometimes you have to resubmit, resubmit.

TN: Resubmit, yeah.

TI: And you're talking, you're multiplying this by thousands, you said five thousand.

TN: Yeah, we submitted quite a bit.

TI: And where did all this paper go? It must have been just boxes and boxes.

TN: I don't know. It's in the University of California archives. [Laughs]

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.