<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Now, Frank, growing up, did you do any kind of sports or martial arts?

FS: Oh, yeah. I was, I did judo since I was twelve, in Little Tokyo. And I did until maybe I was forty. And I quit because my son didn't, he was too flabby. You know how, there was no tightness in his body. You know how kind of chunky people would just roll, and they're just like a dough, instead of, you know what I mean, rigid. So he could never get into the point where he could do judo and would fall and all that. He was learning how to fall, they call it ukemi, just falling, falling. He did that for ten months. And I did that only for one week, and I was doing standing practice. I didn't say nothing to my son, I said, "I'm going to see how far he, how much he can take." So I went to practice twice a week, I was going to Seinan Dojo here, pretty famous place. And I noticed my son, and then the teacher was saying, "You know, that kid is kind of retarded," talking about my kid. So I knew that he was not retarded, it was just that his form was not stiff. And then he was telling that to the fukei, the parents. So I got kind of mad and I said, "Well, you know this man here" -- I didn't say teacher -- "this man here says my son is kind of awkward," and what do you call the flabbiness? There's a word for it.

TI: Yeah, I'm not sure, soft --

FS: But anyway, and he can't get promoted to do the next phase. So I said, "As far as I'm concerned, he comes every time I come, twice a week, never complains, go home." And I ask Tony, "Tony, how was today?" He said, "Oh, okay." And he never complained, just comes diligently. Persistence is one thing that's hard in humans. And I was a grownup, and I noticed persistence in my son. So I asked my son one day, "Do you want to quit judo and go into something else?" And he says, he didn't want to make the decision. So I said, "Why don't you go into baseball? You like baseball. So why don't you quit judo and go into baseball?" He went home and he said, "Dad, is it all right if I don't go to judo?" I said, "Yeah, you go be a baseball player." So then he became a baseball player. He was a hell of a good ballplayer.

TI: That's a good story.

FS: Yeah, all-conference, high school.

TI: But was your sense that he just kept going because you were going? I mean, he didn't want to disappoint you?

FS: Well, he didn't care because I was paying the dues for my son. [Laughs]

TI: No, but I'm talking about your son.

FS: Yeah.

TI: Did your son keep going because, it was because of you?

FS: Yeah.

TI: And I wanted him to do it, so he did it for ten months. And I think that's a record; that's a world record.

TI: So going back to your judo, judo takes a lot of discipline.

FS: Yes, it does.

TI: And in talking earlier, it seemed like you were kind of an undisciplined person. I mean, you would do the streets and....

FS: Yes, very.

TI: So how did that work? I mean, was there a clash in terms of...

FS: No, I had a real good black belt higher-ups, way higher. Older too, grownups, that took a liking to me. There was one named Carl Shoji from San Gabriel. He came to our dojo three times a week, because we had a lot of black belts, big...

BT: What dojo?

FS: Rafu Dojo, Los Angeles. And he took a liking to me, and you know, he was a, his father was a lemon grower, orange grower. So they had a car. And those lemon grower and orange grower is a good farmer. You don't have to work. Just irrigate the water, and when the crops are in, just get all the Mexican people and put it in the basket, that was it. Not like flower, no minute work. So he had a lot of time, and he used to take me to tournaments. And then he took a liking to the way I did judo, and he used to concentrate on teaching me. (...) I learned from him. And he was a real good judo, he was a master, I would say.

TI: And so it sounds like when you respect someone, then you'll listen to them and work with them.

FS: Yeah, I do. I do. I think that's why they took a liking. They just kept harboring me, they take me places. Before we go to judo matches, he says, "You hungry?" I said, "No, not really." I didn't want to indulge. They said, "Well, we want to get a little snack before the tournament." And then, you know, here, the men, they take me to tournaments, so then I'd say, "I better not fool around. I better get serious. I better start winning." From that day on, I started winning. I don't care how I did it, legitimate, crooked way, I had to win. And he saw me, he saw that in me, a lot of crookedness.

TI: And what would he say? This is, you're talking about Carl...

FS: Shoji.

TI: ...Shoji.

FS: He'll make practice with me and throw me all over the place. He was high-ranking; he could throw me one hand.

TI: But when saw that, kind of, you maybe bent the rules, or the crookedness, did he ever say anything to you about that?

FS: I think that if I was in his place, and if I had a kid like that, I would say one thing: is that guy curable?

What do you call that word?

BT: Curable?

FS: Yeah, curable. "Could we change him?"

TI: Okay, right.

FS: If there's a potential, I would concentrate. That's what he did. And he showed me two techniques, they were very devastating techniques. Kids my age don't do that technique. They don't even do that, black belts, first, second, even third degree. That's why they call "uchimata." (...) You dive in and you lift your (right) leg up. And then when you lift your (right) leg up and you turn, this foot, you're standing, cannot be flat, according to Shoji. It have to be up, springing up a little bit. Inch, two inch. Then you have him lifted off the ground. If you're flat, he's able to get away, because you're too low. But you know that fraction made a hell of a big difference. When you spring up, I think you lift your whole hips up, so that the opponent's body go up like that. He's really off balance, so now you're twisting, boom.

TI: So you were like his protege, he liked to mentor you, give you these little techniques.

FS: I wouldn't say that. I think it was for my discipline.

TI: Okay.

FS: So he asked me, "How many times did you do uchimata?" "Oh, about a thousand times." He slapped my head. "Bakayaro. Ten thousand." And then next time I counted, about two weeks later, "How many times?" "Over ten thousand." " Bakayaro. Twenty thousand." One day he says, "I notice one thing. You only do right side. What about left?" "I can't do it." And he threw me all over the place, man. Everybody was looking, "Oh, that damn Frank, he's getting it tonight." Man, I thought I was black and blue. Then he says, "Now you start to learn how to do left side. Forget right side." Oh, that is hard. It was hard. It was only one month, one month. But one day, he just put, click. After that, it was so easy. I said, "What did I waste one month for?" So now, I was able to do both ways. Oh, man, that's when I threw seven guys, at uptown dojo, (tournament).

TI: And so when they had these big tournaments...

FS: All over.

TI: And did you do pretty well at these tournaments?

FS: Most of the time I won. If I do bad, I did it against a real tough guy. I either lost to him, or I split decision. There's about four guys that are stronger than me. But they became one my best friends.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.