<Begin Segment 29>

BT: You mentioned earlier about your yakuza boss being in Santa Fe. What was he picked up for, and why was he in Santa Fe?

FS: I think because he was yakuza. He had a FBI record. County, L.A. was minor. He had an FBI record. [Laughs] Top man. So when he got picked up, he didn't get caught for Japanese-born nation, a spy, he was picked up for yakuza.

BT: And so he set up more gambling operations while he was in Santa Fe?

FS: The only one I did, the one I did was the only one I know.

BT: So you and he were doing the gambling again.

FS: Yeah. He was our boss and he was arranging the cash, money, and he was getting members and keeping the peace. And the was intimidating people.

BT: And how was this that the DOJ guards were allowing this to happen?

FS: I think they just kept it quiet, as long as there was no, no big deal, no injury, no disturbance. We didn't bother nobody, we kept to ourselves. They didn't care.

BT: You were kind of keeping busy, huh?

FS: Yeah. They thought that as long as they can be doing something, it'd be less work for us.

TI: And who were the gamblers in Santa Fe?

FS: People that lived there.

TI: So were there, like particular groups?

FS: No, no, no, it was just the general public. Boss used to, my boss used to go to a bunch of people, "Hey, you want to play shiko? We got a session going. Why don't you try your luck?"

BT: Where were people getting money from? Because they didn't have jobs like they did before.

FS: I also wonder on that, because there was no work at Santa Fe. I had a job in the mess hall, but I was lucky. I couldn't have got fired anyway. He didn't want me to go. He knew, I was the only one that knew how to cut meat. And not against the grain, with the grain, you know what I mean? Meat cutting is just like saw cutting, wood. Across the grain, not with. But he didn't, I know he didn't want me to quit. He says, "You know, if the work is too hard, I'll give you more time off." He made it easy as possible.

BT: But since you weren't getting salaries, other people weren't...

FS: Oh, no, I was getting paid.

BT: Oh, you were? How much?

FS: I forgot. [Laughs]

BT: Were you getting more than...

FS: Gambling paid me more. I didn't rely on that pay. They told me to go pick my pay, I used to let it go. And sometimes I had two months' pay. Then the boss's wife used to come from Galveston. That's the hakujin lady. Pretty soon she was bringing me a box of Baby Ruth. You know, forty-eight in a box, the big one? Every month, box of Baby Ruth.

TI: So, Frank, I wanted to clarify something. So the gambling didn't start 'til you got to Santa Fe. Is that true?

FS: More or less. They had little Hana no game, Hanafuda, but that was small, four or five people playing. But this shiko was big. You could have a lot of playing. There were a lot of people playing, then I needed a payout man. Collector and a payout man, and I have to do the oya, count the beans. That what the House, oya.

TI: So it really was at least a two-man operation.

FS: Two, yeah, two or three people. There's always two or three people there. I had people there to guard me, so nobody steal the money, that was the big job. And the other job was to keep order. And so those two people were there. I don't know if they were yakuza or what, but I don't want to fool around with them. They were kind of mean-looking guys.

BT: Well, you had mentioned that you had left Santa Fe with a thousand dollars in gambling winnings.

FS: Yeah, easy.

BT: So it just raises the question, where did people come up with that kind of money? 'Cause it wasn't that big a camp.

FS: Well, don't forget the people that ended up in Santa Fe had their life, quote "life savings" in their pocket. There was no bank. And a lot of them didn't leave it with their wife, because in Japanese family, the man is the boss. Today, they leave the money with you and all that. In those days, no, no, the mama don't have no money. "I give you x amount, you live on that." That was the system. So the man had the money, and he carried it. So how much life savings they had, I don't know. I don't know. But there was no collection done in Santa Fe because the boss put the fear of God in 'em. You know, "You don't pay, we're going to take your inochi." "Inochi toru de," take your life. So they pay. And then some people that didn't pay, two of the guys that was helping me, they'll say, "Don't give him credit, he owes too much money," or that guy. So when they start putting their bet, I just get the stick and then throw the money away, cast it aside. They say, "Nani sho no?" I said, "You better pay your shakin first," pay your debt first and then play. So then they get their money and walk out.

BT: You wonder why people didn't just report you to the guards and say that you're gambling.

FS: They were threatened, their life was threatened. Against the boss, see, you have a yakuza boss there, he knew the core of life of a person. If he threatened you, he'll fulfill it. Where you and me, we threaten people, we don't do nothing. We try to scare you. But the yakuza, he'll knife you. He says, "Not enough? I'll take your arm off," or something. So people will pay. People do... I don't think we had any trouble in Santa Fe as far as money. I think it's Santa Anita we had, because that was in camp first time, and people were kind of crazy for a while. But once in Santa Fe, there's an old Japanese saying that people are more ochitsuiteru, more settled. And so they knew how much they had, how much that could gamble. But there were people that were in debt. There was one guy in debt about thirty dollars. And then I think he's the one that had a sharpened axe, sharpened an axe, and then he went to someplace on that... and the next day he tried to cut his head off. I'm not kidding you. I went to see him because they were telling so-and so. And I remember the guy's name, he's, he owed money, about thirty bucks. So I went to see him, and he was a bloody mess. So I told the guy that worked with me, "You go through his pockets and get the money out before he send him to are." Otherwise, we'll never get the money. So he went through his pockets and he got it. I think he got about fifty or sixty bucks, he took the whole thing. [Laughs]

<End Segment 29> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.