Densho Digital Archive - Shig Miyaki Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So today is Tuesday, September 22, 2009. We're in Torrance at the Torrance Holiday Inn. Running the camera is Dana Hoshide, we have Tosh Nakano in the room also observing, and then Barbara Takei and Tom Ikeda are the interviewers, and we're here with Shig Miyaki. So Shig, I guess the first question I have is just, can you tell me when and where you were born?

SM: Well, I was born on Terminal Island, which is Los Angeles city, and on November 18, 1923.

TI: And do you know why you were named Shig or Shigeru?

SM: Well, my last name is Miyaki, which is "tree in a shrine." "Shigeru" is "blossom." So the tree blossom or something of that sort. [Laughs]

TI: And so do you know who named you that?

SM: Well, my parents, I mean, I guess my dad.

TI: That's beautiful. And you said you were born on Terminal Island. Do you know, was it at a medical facility?

SM: No, midwife.

TI: And was that pretty common on Terminal Island?

SM: Well, most of the guys were born by midwife. There was no hospital there, you know.

TI: So let me ask about your father. Tell me, first, your father's name, and then where he was, where he was born.

SM: Ryohei Miyaki. R-Y-O-H-E-I. He was born in Japan, and he came over here when he was seventeen. And...

TI: And do you know why he came to the United States?

SM: Well, I guess things were rough over there in Japan. And I guess there was hardly any work, I think, and that's why a lot of the Isseis immigrated to the United States.

TI: And do you know what part of Japan he was from?

SM: Wakayama.

TI: And what was he like? How would you describe him in terms of personality? Was he quiet, was he outgoing?

SM: Well, it's hard to say. Well, I guess he's just like any father, you know. [Laughs]

TI: Well, how about his friends? How would his friends describe him? If he's with his, sort of, buddies, how would he be?

SM: God, I don't know how to describe him. [Laughs]

TI: Okay. So let's talk about your mother now. What was her name and where was she from?

SM: Well, her name was Hamaye. And she was from the same village as my father, and, well, apparently I don't think they knew each other then, but she was a "picture bride."

TI: Okay, so that's how they met, so your father was in the United States.

SM: Yeah, and then...

TI: And then there was an arrangement.

SM: Yeah, arranged through relatives.

TI: And what was, what was her maiden name?

SM: Hamagiwa.

TI: And same question, how would you describe her? What was she like?

SM: [Laughs] I don't know how to describe... you know, I don't know the right words.

TI: And then when your father was in the United States, what kind of work did he do?

SM: Well, at first, I think... I really don't know what he did before he went and came to Terminal Island.

TI: Well, then just describe, at Terminal Island, what did he do?

SM: Well, he was a fisherman.

TI: And did his family, did he have a family history of fishing like in Japan, did any of his family fish?

SM: Well, not... well, small fishing, just village fishing. So it's not...

TI: Good, okay. So he was a fisherman on Terminal Island.

SM: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And so I now want to kind of talk about your experiences on Terminal Island growing up. You're actually the first person I've interviewed who grew up in Terminal Island, so I'm going to ask you, what was it like for you?

SM: Well, Terminal Island was, especially the Japanese community, there was about, oh, three thousand people. And the, all the menfolks were fishermen, and the women, they were, they mostly worked in the cannery.

TI: So with three thousand people, that's a substantial number. It's almost like a small town.

SM: Uh-huh, it is.

TI: And so did it operate like a small town, there were stores, churches?

SM: Yeah, there were stores. There was a Baptist church and a Buddhist church. And, well, the elementary school, we used to call it, it was all Japanese students, no Caucasian. Well, in fact, there were two, one family of Russian people that lived among us, and these Russians, their kids went to the school, too. And they spoke our broken Japanese like we did.

TI: That's interesting. So with Terminal Island before the war, did, as people walked the streets, would it be common to hear people speak Japanese in the streets?

SM: Well, broken Japanese. Not what you'd call...

TI: Now if you were to leave Terminal Island and go to another, was there a definite change? Did it feel a lot different? Did Terminal Island as a community, was it kind of unique in some ways?

SM: Yes. Well, the thing is, since we were all, you know, we spoke broken Japanese, and not too many English, they kept us half a year longer in our, in elementary school before we went to junior high school across the bay to San Pedro.

TI: Oh, so that was because, primarily because of the language?

SM: Yeah, uh-huh. Because they tried to help us out a little bit more. So we were a little bit older than the people in our class when we went to Japanese, I mean, junior high school.

TI: Because on Terminal Island, they just had the elementary school, then when you got to a certain age, you had to go to...

SM: Yeah, they kept us half a year longer.

TI: Now in your elementary school, like in your class, how many kids would be in one class?

SM: Oh, I would say twenty-something.

TI: Okay, so a regular size class.

SM: Yeah, a regular size class.

TI: And your teachers, were they Japanese or were they...

SM: No, Caucasian.

TI: And when you think about kind of the going out after school, for instance, did you go to Japanese school?

SM: Oh, we went to Japanese school, most of the kids did. But I don't think we learned anything. [Laughs]

TI: And why was that? Because people didn't pay attention as much, or...

SM: Yeah, you just, kids... you're not interested in studying, you know. Well, we must have learned something about the culture or whatever, you know, but not much.

TI: Now, you mentioned earlier how your father was a fisherman, and oftentimes the mothers would work in the canneries. Did the children ever have to help out in any way with the fishing?

SM: Well, no. The fishing part of it is, well, you know, when they go out to see, I mean, you know, the kids are all home and they can't help anyway, see.

TI: But when the ships came in, did you ever have to, like, clean the boats or anything like that?

SM: Well, as far as... well, most of the kids were young then. When the war broke out, I was eighteen, but majority of the kids would be much younger than I am.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Well, let's kind of fast-forward a little bit. Say you're like an older teenager, say about fifteen, sixteen. In the summertimes, did you ever kind of work or help out?

SM: Well, I used to. I used to go out during the summertime.

TI: Okay, so this is kind of interesting to me. I've interviewed people about the fishing industry up in the Pacific Northwest, and I'm curious to know what it was like down here in terms of fishing. So what would be kind of a typical fishing trip for you?

SM: Well, see, there were several types of fishing boats. There were some of the small ones, and we used to call them "jig boats." And they used to jig for albacore, and then they used to go out for bottom fishing with set lines. Then you had your medium-size boat, which went out for barracuda, skipjack, yellowtail, and so forth, with taking live baits and fishing with a pole. Then you had your purse seiners that used net.

TI: So that'd be more common in the Northwest, they used lots of nets up there.

SM: Before that, before they got into purse seining, all the big boats, they used to go bait fishing down to Mexico, you know. And maybe you've seen pictures of where they haul in these tunas from the small to the bigger. When it's small, it's a one-pole operation. When it gets a little bigger, it's a two-pole operation.

TI: When they say "two-poles," that's two men, then, doing it?

SM: Two men connected to one line, and then they hauled it in. Then when it gets bigger, they use three poles, three persons using one hook and then hauling that in.

TI: And when you say "one-pole," a small fish, about how heavy would it...

SM: Well, it'll be up to about twenty, twenty-five pounds maximum.

TI: And then a two-pole one would be...

SM: Maybe in the forty-pound range, and then when it gets bigger...

TI: And what would be like the largest you would see?

SM: Well, I think the largest yellowfin used to be in the four to five hundred, but those were unusual.

TI: Thank you, that was interesting. Growing up, I'm curious about just your kind of normal, like fun activities. When you got around, got together with your buddies, what kind of things did you do on Terminal Island?

SM: Well, I think we did the normal things, played sandlot football, baseball, you know, whatever.

TI: Now, did you ever participate in, like, organized sports? Besides sandlot, were there, like, more organized, like, track or football?

SM: Well, not in elementary school. But when we went to junior high, then we had more organized activities.

TI: And so which ones did you do when you got in junior high school and high school?

SM: Well, I played a little bit baseball. And, well, then, even then, we did some sandlot organized football.

TI: Now, as a community, did you ever have a, like, community baseball team that played other communities?

SM: Oh, yes. Well, see, up to the World War, we were on the younger end. And so, you know, the older kids had a team we used to call the San Pedro Skippers, and they used to play with different... in fact, they were pretty good, considering all the opponents they used to play with. It was more like a semi-pro team.

TI: And so if the war had not broken out, would you have eventually maybe played on, like...

SM: No, I don't think I was good enough. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 4>

SM: But in other activities, well, they had these kendo and judo and things like that. We even had a Boy Scout troop there at the Buddhist church.

TI: And so were these things that you all participated in, like Boy Scouts?

SM: Yeah, I did most everything. But judo was my favorite, you know, or I was better at it, so naturally...

TI: And so when you did tournaments and things like that, were you pretty good at that?

SM: Yeah, yeah. We used to, every, twice a year, we used to have a tournament in Japanese, J-town. And all the people from around the area, from all over southern California used to come together, have tournaments there. Team tournaments and individual tournaments.

TI: Wow, so there would be hundreds, or how many people? It must have been a large gathering.

SM: Oh, yeah, it was quite a few people.

TI: And so in your, kind of your bracket, your age group, how many would be competing, did you compete against?

SM: Well, see, each community used to send a team. The Yonen, which is the young, under twelve, twelve and under, and then the middle group, which was seventeen and under. And then the elder group, eighteen and over.

TI: And so like in each group, though, like how many, like the under twelve group, how many would your...

SM: Well, in the team, there used to be five. And they used to have substitute besides that, but each team had five members. And they used to compete against different group, and if you're eliminated, then they go on to the final and you win the division.

TI: And so when you were doing teams, so you have five members. Did you have like a number one seed, a number two seed, like that, or did they just... like how did they determine who you would go against?

SM: Well, before, they used to have, when you had the one strong guy, they can take all of 'em down. But then they said that wasn't fair, so they used to, you know, pair each one against, and then the one that won the most won the tournament.

TI: And so in your group, were you one of the five that would be on the...

SM: Yeah.

TI: And then in general, how were you rated in that five? Were you one of the stronger...

SM: Well, I was usually around the top end of the group.

TI: And how would you do against all of the other teams then?

SM: We did pretty good.

TI: Okay. Well, I heard you're very good, so that's why I'm asking all these questions. [Laughs] I had to bring this out, because you probably wouldn't tell me how good you were. Good, okay. Well, that sounds exciting. That must have been a pretty big event for the whole...

SM: Well, yeah. And then like Terminal Island, you go down to L.A., it was a big thing twice a year. We used to go down there and had a good time. [Laughs]

TI: So when you think back, were there some... oh, what's a good question, like rivals or key competitors that you always had to fight and you always thought about?

SM: Yeah. There is quite a few people.

TI: So who was, like your toughest opponent that you always kind of dreaded to go against?

SM: Well...

TI: Or enjoyed to go against, maybe.

SM: There were a couple of guys that, you know, I didn't get a chance to compete against.

SM: You did not get a chance?

SM: Yeah. You know, there were a couple of them that were in our, in the same age group, and they were considered pretty good, but I never came across in competition with them.

TI: And it seems like you regret that. You wanted to go against them.

SM: Yeah, yeah, I would have wanted to.

TI: It sounds fun; it sounds interesting.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Any other memories like that? Judo, is there anything else that you have sort of fond memories back in those days?

SM: Well...

TI: And Barbara, if you know something, go ahead and ask. Is there something that you can...

SM: Well, you know, when we were in about the junior high age, we used to go, we used to take the rowboat and go fishing. And we used to fish out there and catch little, we used to call it tomcod, and we used to bring it back. And we sold it to these people that used to make dried fish out of 'em, two for a penny. And we'll have a sack-full, so we'd make a buck or two And that was good money then. [Laughs]

TI: So you'd just go out with a couple buddies, and you would just fish all morning and come back with....

SM: Yeah, yeah. Well, we used to get my dad's set line, which is... you know what a set line is. It has a lot of hooks, and we used to go out there by the prison, federal prison and then set the line and catch those tomcods. And we used to bring 'em back and sell it to these, people, which, in turn, they make dried, they open it up and salt it, dry it, then they go out to the countryside to the farms and all over, they sell it, see.

TI: And so when you made like a dollar or something, which was good money, what would you do with that money?

SM: Well, probably spent it on candies and go to the movie or whatever.

TI: So this was a way to get a little spending money, you and your buddies to do something.

SM: Yeah.

TI: That's good, I like that story.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So I'm going to move on now to December 7, 1941. And wanted to ask you, what are some of your memories of that day?

SM: Well, that Sunday morning, I remember getting up. And in those days, news were very slow. Everybody had radios, but, you now, it wasn't like what it is right now. And in the morning we were hanging around, and then people said Pearl Harbor was bombed or something. But we didn't even know where Pearl Harbor was. And pretty soon, said Japan attacked the United States. But we didn't think nothing of it. But that Sunday afternoon, we said, "Let's go to the movies," and we went across the channel to San Pedro. And then when we got out, they just had the, they had soldiers there, and they had us all go into these, this fenced-off area. And they kept us there for a couple of hours, then they told us to go back home, so we came back home.

TI: So describe when you, so you went across the channel and the soldiers were there. What was the, kind of, feelings of the soldiers? Were they, I guess were they, like, professional? Were they angry? Do have a sense? Can you remember what they were like?

SM: It's hard to say. But, you know, we were just herded into this fenced-off area.

TI: Or let me ask you this question. What was your reaction when you were herded to this other place? What were you thinking, what were you...

SM: That's when we realized this must be really serious or whatever. Because until then, we just didn't think too much about it.

TI: And so after this incident, so they sent you back. What did you do next?

SM: Well, then they came out with a, they said when you go to school, you had to take a certain route to school so that... whether it was for our protection or whatever, whatever it was, we had to take a certain route to school.

TI: And when you took that certain route to school, did you have to go past, like, army soldiers or anything like that? Was there any checkpoint?

SM: Well, I think it was patrolled with regular police, I think it was.

TI: But when you did that, did you ever have to, like check in with anyone when you left the island or anything like that?

SM: No, there was no anything like that.

TI: But they wanted you to just go a certain...

SM: But I guess there were some, in school, things weren't, things were a little bit different from an ordinary time.

TI: So describe that. When you say it's a little bit different in school, what were some of...

SM: God, it's hard to explain.

TI: Was it, when you were in school, you mentioned Terminal Island where the elementary school was almost all Japanese. In high school, what was that like? Was it mostly Japanese or was there a mixture?

SM: No, they're all mixed. In one class, there would be maybe thirty or forty Japanese in the whole class of maybe, the winter class was much smaller, about 150 to 200. And in the summer class, it ran from 250 to 350 students. And of that, I would say maybe ten percent was Japanese.

TI: So there was a substantial number, but again, you were a minority, about ten, fifteen percent. So after December 7th when you're in school, were there ever any tension with the other non-Japanese about Pearl Harbor?

SM: Well, there must have been. But I didn't, I don't remember hardly any that I considered mean.

TI: Do you recall any conversations with your buddies or your friends about what had happened and what might happen to you?

SM: Well, at that time, I don't think we talked too much about that, what happened. Until they got us, they evacuated Terminal Island.

TI: Did you ever get a chance to talk to your mother or father about what had just happened at Pearl Harbor and what that might mean to the community?

SM: Well, we probably did, but I don't remember too much.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: Shig, I forgot to ask this question, so I wanted to come back to it. But in terms of siblings, so did you have brothers and sisters?

SM: Oh, I had two brothers and a sister.

TI: Okay, so let's go through the birth order in terms of...

SM: Well, my sister was the eldest.

TI: And what was her name?

SM: Kazue.

TI: And how much older was she than...

SM: She was two years older than I. And I had a brother two years younger than I am.

TI: And what was his name?

SM: Ryouchi. And another brother who was five years younger than I am, Tsutomu.

TI: Okay, so there were four children, a sister, you, and the two younger brothers.

SM: But my sister, this was in 1928 or something, our family took a trip to Japan. And when we came back, my sister stayed in Japan.

TI: Okay, so in '28, so that was, so you were pretty young.

SM: Yeah, I was about four years old.

TI: Okay, so you didn't really know your older sister very well.

SM: No. Well, I got to know her after the war when she came back to the United States.

TI: Okay, good. So that's good to have established that. So going back to the family, so you were the oldest son, and two younger brothers. Did you ever talk to your younger brothers about what was happening?

SM: Well, I was... well, Terminal Island was a little bit different from other places. It was like a real Japanese family where siblings don't talk to each other too much. And you talk to other people a lot more than your own family. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so you would talk more with people your age, for instance.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: And then your brother would do the same.

SM: That's why, like Terminal Island, I know a lot of these people that are older than I am, but people that were younger than I am, we hardly know each other.

TI: Now, so why is it that you know people older than you?

SM: Well, I don't know why that is, but I guess they, well, the younger people know us, but we don't know them.

TI: I see, so you would always kind of look up more in terms of...

SM: Yeah, yeah.

TI: I understand. Good.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So let's keep moving. So you're Terminal Island. After December 7th, at some point, the government decided that they needed to round up the men, the fishermen.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Can you describe that, what day that was, and what happened?

SM: I don't remember exactly when it was, but it was soon after the war broke out that these FBI, or they called them FBI, they came and then rounded up all the alien male.

TI: Were you on the island when this happened?

SM: Oh, yeah.

TI: Okay. So when you say the FBI, do you recall what you saw? Were there very many men that came on the island, or just a few?

SM: No, there was a whole bunch of 'em. They were, I guess they were deputized or whatever. And they were not regular FBI agents, but they probably picked them off the street to act as FBI agents. And they went, came through, they went through all the houses, anyway.

TI: And as they went through the houses, they would just identify the, almost the male...

SM: Well, they looked through everything they could think of to determine if we had any contraband or whatever.

TI: Did they have lists of names to pick up, or did they just pick up people?

SM: Well, I guess they must have had the names, because they took all the alien male into custody, and they shipped them out to... well, we didn't know where they went at first, but we found out they went to Bismarck.

TI: And the treatment, when these men came through, how did they treat people as they went from house to house?

SM: Well, I don't know exactly how you would describe that. But they just went through everything that we had.

TI: And did you have any conversations with any of those men as they were, like, going through your house? Did you ever talk with them, did they ask you any questions?

SM: Not that I remember, you know. They more or less went on their own to check whatever there was.

TI: As this was happening to your house, do you remember kind of a feeling, like how you felt? Do you remember any thoughts about that?

SM: Well, it's... well, it was kind of humiliating to have them go through all your stuff, whatever, written or letters or whatever you had.

TI: And how much warning did you have that these men were gonna come through your house and take your father?

SM: I don't think there was any warning at all; they just came down and took him.

TI: And then after they left with your father, what did you do? With your mother, you, your brothers, what happened?

SM: Well, there were hardly anything to do. And I don't think we did anything. And until they came out with this order that we had to leave in forty-eight hours.

TI: And do you recall the time between they took your father and how quickly you had to then leave Terminal Island?

SM: Well, it was quite some time. See, the war broke out in December, and we were, evacuated Terminal Island, I think it was later part of February. So it was quite a bit of time there.

TI: So during that time period, after they took away your father and the other Issei men, and so you, your family had to, essentially, survive without the fishermen, what did you guys do? How did you survive without the fishing?

SM: I really don't know. [Laughs]

TI: But the whole community must have really struggled.

SM: Yeah.

TI: Because essentially that's their livelihood.

SM: There were a lot of people there that were financially in trouble, I would say.

TI: Was there any, sort of, help or support from other Japanese communities in southern California in terms of either money or food?

SM: If there was, I don't know. But during the evacuation, I remember a lot of people from L.A., especially the L.A. Produce Market, they used to have trucks that they sent trucks down to Terminal Island to haul some of the stuff that we could take to different parts of southern California.

TI: So they would send trucks so that your belongings, you could put on the truck and they could do that. Going back to your family, so did your mother kind of take care of things or did you have to kind of step in and help your mother during this time, to run the household?

SM: Well, I guess it kind of ran by itself, you know. Everything was like it was with just the father not being there.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Well, then going specifically, when you got the order, forty-eight hours to leave, so now things had to happen. Describe what happened in your family.

SM: Well, in my case, I had a second cousin in Buena Park. And I went there, I was able to drive then, so I borrowed their truck and I hauled our stuff and a couple of other families' belongings to their farm. And we stayed at their workers' housing.

TI: So in your case, you, I guess, were lucky you had a relative that you kind of stayed with.

SM: In my case, that was, that's what I did. But there were families that didn't have any older kids, and they were all young, and they had no place to go. And the thing is, they didn't tell us where to go or how to go. And so a lot of churches and Japanese school and community centers, they took a lot of these people they had nowhere to go, to stay with them.

TI: And when people only have forty-eight hours, you had a truck, but I'm guessing people had to leave a lot behind.

SM: Oh, you couldn't take anything that was large. So we had these people come in and try to get whatever we had for nothing. Everything was five, five or ten dollars, refrigerators, dining sets, whatever. That's how things were. It was chaos.

TI: So did you, your family end up selling some of your...

SM: Oh, yeah, we sold the, our dining table, refrigerator and whatever, that was worth anything.

TI: And who did you sell it to, do you remember?

SM: Oh, these, I don't know what you call them. It was these... you know, when things happen like that, you have these people come in from all over.

TI: And so I'm imagining that they came with like a big truck and go from house to house.

SM: Oh, yeah, they had their truck or pickup or whatever, and they bought whatever.

TI: And they would just come to the house and they would just negotiate and say, "We'll pay you this certain amount." Now, were these Caucasians, they were whites?

SM: Well, they were mostly white, yeah.

TI: And then they would just, did you ever see people who refused to sell their things?

SM: Oh, yeah. I imagine there were people that would rather throw it out than give it to them for five dollars.

TI: So when you left your home, what was left there? You were able to have a truck, you sold some things. Anything else you left there? What was it like?

SM: I don't know. I don't remember, I don't think we took everything, 'cause we had to leave a lot of things.

<Begin Segment 10>

BT: Well, did most of the fishermen, the Issei fishermen, own their own boats, and what happened to those boats?

SM: In our case, see, they came out with the, just before the war, that aliens cannot own property, and that included fishing boats. And so what happened was my dad's boat, we had to put it under U.S. citizen's name. And, but my sister was not quite twenty-one at that time, so they put it under her name with a guardian who was a U.S. citizen over twenty-one. And it was under my sister's name.

BT: What kind of a boat was it?

SM: My dad had a 50-footer, I don't know what you call it. We did mostly bait fishing. But in the old days, they used to use nets, too.

TI: And then what happened to that boat?

SM: Well, after we, when we evacuated Terminal Island, we left it in care of the cannery. And, but we didn't know what'll happen after we... so we had a "For Sale" sign on it, and people used to come out to Buena Park to try to buy it, and we finally sold it.

TI: And do you recall how much you sold the boat for?

SM: We sold it for, I think it was $1,800.

TI: And how much would that boat be worth?

SM: At that time, it's hard to say. I don't know how much it would have been worth at that time, maybe twenty thousand. I don't know.

TI: So almost a ten cents on the dollar, less than ten cents on the dollar.

SM: Something like that, uh-huh.

TI: And who did you end up selling the boat to?

SM: Caucasian. And I don't know what the other people did. But my... well, eventual, my brother-in-laws, they had a boat, too, which was an 85-footer, or maybe a little bit larger. I don't know how they got around to keeping the boat, because they kept their boat.

TI: Well, I mean, when you sold the boat, what other options did you have, do you think? So you're in Buena Park, but the boat's down in the cannery, you didn't know what was going to happen...

SM: Well, we had no choice but to either sell it or have somebody take care of it.

TI: And so you really had, really, not very many options.

SM: No. Well, see, like in a bigger boat, I would say people would be willing to lease it or whatever to fish on it. And maybe that's what...

TN: He leased the boat out.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TN: But the lessees, or people that leased it, built up all these bills on it. And so after the war, when they came out, the boat was drydocked, and he had to pay twenty thousand dollars to get the boat back.

SM: Yeah.

TI: Just because of all the debts and the leans on it. Okay, yeah. So, yeah...

SM: So in a smaller boat, it's not worth it to go through all that trouble to keep the boat. [Laughs]

TI: And so that must have been a lot of responsibility on your shoulders to have to figure that out. I mean, here was your family's livelihood, and you have to sell the boat. It must have been a pretty big...

SM: Well, you know, $1800 at that time was fairly good money. But eventually I lost it.

TI: We'll talk about that later, but during this time, did you have any conversations with, or correspondence with your father about where he was?

SM: Well, yeah. After, soon after they were taken to Bismarck, we found out they were there. And I imagine we corresponded through mail.

TI: But things like the decision to sell the boat or anything, who did you talk with about that?

SM: Well, it's my sister and I, and we were the ones that decided to sell the boat, you know.

TI: So your sister was now, I'm sorry, back from Japan? I thought she was in Japan.

SM: Oh, she was back from Japan before the... I think she came back in '39 or something like that.

TI: Okay, so you had your sister to talk about.

SM: Yeah.

TI: Okay, good.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So I'm going to jump ahead a little bit, because I want to get to Manzanar. So can you describe... or at some point, did your family ever consider, there was a time period when families were allowed to voluntarily leave the area?

SM: Uh-huh. Well, see, when we evacuated Terminal Island, all the people were scattered all over southern California. We were in Buena Park, others went to L.A., different areas. And if we stayed there until the time that they interned us, we would have all been scattered all over the place. But, well, when they were building Manzanar, they had all the Terminal Island people volunteer that wanted to go to Manzanar as a group.

TI: And this was to go early to help set up Manzanar?

SM: No, no, no, not...

TI: Oh, but just to go as a group to Manzanar.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh. The real early group that went was the, they were mostly bachelors that went to Manzanar in their old jalopies and whatnot. And they kind of helped set up the camp.

TI: But in your case, so the Terminal Island people are scattered throughout southern California. How did the word get out to all the Terminal Island people that they can go together as a group?

SM: I don't know how they...

TI: Do you remember... well, how did you find out that the Terminal Island people were able to...

SM: God, I don't know. Through phone or whatever.

TI: So somehow the word got out, and people had this, kind of, network, communication network to just let each other know?

SM: So I would say most of the people volunteered to go, and they all came to L.A. by the railroad siding someplace here, it was, I don't remember exactly where it was. But we got on the train and went to Lone Pine.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: And what were your first impressions when you got to Manzanar, when you saw Manzanar?

SM: It was a desert. [Laughs] And, you know, they had a few of the barracks built, and they had all the foundation poured, and the next one, and so forth. But...

TI: Now, as a group, were you one of the earlier groups at Manzanar, or were there very many people there already?

SM: Well, we were the second family group. The first group was the bachelors, and the second group was the people from Bainbridge, Washington.

TI: Yeah, Bainbridge Island.

SM: Yeah, Bainbridge Island. See, when they had to evacuate there, and they had nowhere to go. But they had this first couple of blocks built in Manzanar, and that's where they came.

TI: I'm curious, because Bainbridge Island -- I'm from Seattle -- is right across the Puget Sound. What were your, what were your thoughts about the Bainbridge Island people when you came across them? Did they seem different than the Terminal Island people?

SM: Well, yeah. It was... I would say different. Terminal Island people were a little bit on the rougher side, you know. [Laughs] They were all fishermen and, you know, I don't know what the people in Bainbridge did, but I think... and our group was a much larger group.

TI: Yeah, so I have to tell you, from their perspective, they were mostly strawberry farmers, and the stories they have was I think they were a little intimidated by the Terminal Island people. [Laughs]

SM: Yeah, could have been. [Laughs]

TI: They said they were a little...

SM: Yeah, I could say that was about right.

TI: Okay. So there's something, in terms of going to school, you were at this point a senior in high school.

SM: Yeah, when the war broke out, we were in San Pedro. I was a senior. Then when we went to Buena Park, I went to Fullerton High School for about a, almost a month, I think. And then we went to Manzanar, and I think we were the first class to graduate or pushed out from Manzanar High School. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: I'm going to kind of go through Manzanar kind of fast, but there's one thing I want to touch upon. You're eighteen years old, so you're a young man. And I've heard that you liked to fish when you were at Manzanar. So can you tell me a little bit about that? I mean, how did you go about going fishing, because that would be outside the perimeter.

SM: Well, sport fishing, you know, we did a little bit on Terminal Island. But in camp, these true sports fishermen, my brother-in-law, he was a, he liked to do that. And they, I used to tag along with them, and that's when we used to go fishing in the creek, you know.

TI: So describe to me how would you go from the camp to the creek? Because that was outside the barbed wires.

SM: Uh-huh. Well, during the early days, they used to have, we used to have a crew that used to go out, make irrigation ditches for the farm. Well, we used to, we cleared the sagebrushes for the farmers, and then after that we made irrigation ditches. And so we used to go out with the irrigation crew or the farmers, and then come back in with the group.

TI: Oh, so when the irrigation crew went out, you would go out with them?

SM: Yeah.

TI: And then from there you'd go fishing, and then you'd come back in and go back.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Now, was this done, do you think, did the administration or the guards kind of know what you guys were doing?

SM: Well, there must have been some people that knew. But when we went to the mountain, we took another route. See, they used to have a reservoir above the camp, and they used to have people that used to watch the reservoir, they used to have a little shack there, that they used to rotate and stay there. And at night, they used to have a change of shift, and we used to, we got on the panel truck, and everybody would lie down on the back, and then what these people did was they opened the gate and then they closed it, and then go under the tower, and they'd tell 'em that they're the crew for the reservoir. And we went to the reservoir, stayed there 'til early morning, and then we hiked up to the...

TI: So you were able to go up there, but whose idea was it to maybe go hiking up in the mountains?

SM: Well, they're... we weren't the first one. We were probably the fourth and fifth group that went up there. But somebody thought about going up there, you know, somebody knew there were... I found out later that the lakes up there were planted in 19... what was it? 1920-something, wasn't it? Yeah.

TI: So planted with trout or fish?

SM: Yeah, yeah. Well, we didn't know it at that time, but we thought we were catching golden trouts. But they were actually Colorado cutthroat, we found out later. [Laughs]

TI: So if they were planted a while ago, they must have been good-sized fish up there.

SM: Oh, yeah, it was good-sized trout.

TI: And so before you guys decided to do it on your own, you mentioned other groups going up there. And so when people would come back and you would hear the stories, what would you hear? What would make you want to do this?

SM: I don't know. I guess it's more, it's something to do, you know, from the normal camp life.

TI: Now when your, you mentioned the fishing, but I heard that on one of the trips, you actually climbed Mt. Williamson.

SM: Yeah.

TI: And so that's not to go fishing, that's actually to hike up --

SM: Oh, fish up there.

TI: But at the very top?

SM: Yeah, uh-huh. Almost to the top, we passed the timber line, and there's seven lakes up there. And I think three or four of the lakes, they used to have fish, and we used to fish up -- and it seemed like it was about a week, but I don't know. It must have been maybe a lot less. But we stayed up there, and we ate fish. [Laughs]

TI: And so you're at pretty high altitude up there, you're probably...

SM: Oh, yeah, it's over ten thousand feet, yeah. You know, timber line was about ten thousand, I would say.

TI: And so when you're that high up, at night it gets pretty cold.

SM: Oh, yeah.

TI: So did you have adequate clothing?

SM: Yeah, we had a sleeping bag. You know, in those days, sleeping bag was pretty bulky, you know. Nowadays have a lot, compact sleeping bags. But in those days... so, you know, there was eight of us that went out there. And half of the guys used to carry two sleeping bag on their back, plus other stuff in between. And the others carried other equipment, pots and pans.

TI: And so you're up there days, and maybe even a week. When you would come back, how would you get back into camp?

SM: Oh, the same way we did going out.

TI: Now, with your group, again, do you think the administration, the guards, kind of knew what was happening, or going on?

SM: Well, there must have been some people that know. but, you know...

TI: Now, did anyone ever get into trouble for going out and doing these excursions?

SM: Oh, yeah. There were some that were caught, but later on, I understand that people, they used to go out, they'll purposely identify themselves in the foothill, you know. And then they'll, the guards'll come up there to pick 'em up and take 'em back to camp. They don't have to walk back. [Laughs] You know, that's what I hear that happened later on. You know, some guy got the idea that rather than sneak back in, they had the guys come pick 'em up.

TI: So they might get a little [inaudible] or something.

SM: Yeah, or build a fire or something out there.

TI: And did you hear, when people were obviously caught in this case, what kind of trouble did they get in? Did they...

SM: I don't think... they just probably gave 'em a good talking and that's about it, I think. They couldn't do hardly anything.

TI: Now, did anybody ever get in trouble, like break a leg or anything on any of these hikes?

SM: Well, there was one guy that got, died up there in the mountain.

TI: And what happened? It was just exposure?

SM: Well, he was not a fisherman, either. He was an artist or something, yeah. Artist that went up with the group. And the guys that fish were together, but he went alone someplace, and I guess they got caught in the storm or whatever. Later on, they went up there to try to find him.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So, Shig, we're going to get going on the second half of this interview. And we were talking about, a little bit about the hiking, and I think the way we ended up at the last hour was you talked about how this one artist died while he was up there, probably doing some artwork. But I'm curious, I want to go back and talk about the gear that you had. Because you're right, today I hike, and we have these nice backpacks with small tents, small sleeping bags, really light cooking gear. And if you're up there for a few days, you have to be somewhat prepared. Can you describe all the things that you brought up to the mountains?

SM: Well, actually, I don't remember taking any tent or anything like that. Well, there used to be a cave that was a kind of narrow, long cave, you know, in the rocks there, and we used to sleep there. And that was a few hundred feet below the lake where we used to fish, and we used to come down there and sleep, and then go back up there to fish. And we mostly slept inside the cave there.

TI: And so for, and so you mentioned sleeping bags, so you had sleeping bags. And then cooking gear...

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Now, how would you carry all of this stuff to walk up there?

SM: Well, I don't remember how we packed ourselves. But we took some, you know, rice and a pan, well, the frying pan, and some, a little oil to fry the fish. And especially above ten thousand feet, when you cook rice, you got to put that much water, that much rice and that much water, otherwise it all evaporates because of the high altitude. There's no pressure there.

TI: Oh, so when you start boiling the water, the water evaporates much faster at that altitude.

SM: Yeah, well, it don't get as hot. [Laughs] You could almost stick your finger in the boiling water up there.

TI: And so you would come back to this cave, and that was kind of like your sleeping area.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh. We used to build a fire there. There's no trees in that area, but there's a lot of brushes along the creek there. And we used to use those things for fire.

TI: And generally, when you went up there, how many would go with you? I mean, how large a group was it?

SM: Well, the time I went, there were eight of us. But, you know, there were others that went solo, or some people went with two or three.

TI: And when you returned, were people pretty curious when they found out you were up there? Did a lot of people ask you questions about what it was like?

SM: Not too much, you know. They knew we were all going out there, you know.

TI: And so was it, though, kind of a well-known secret? I mean, did most people in camp, or most of your friends know that you were up there?

SM: Oh, yeah, yeah.

TI: And while you were gone, was your absence ever noted? I mean, would people or a teacher or somebody say, "Where's Shig?"

SM: There were designated people that used to keep count of the occupants of the block. But, you know, those things were, weren't enforced strictly.

TI: So for the most part, people, I mean, you weren't really missed.

SM: No, no.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: I want to go back a little bit to school. You mentioned, I think the term you said was "pushed out," your graduating there. So tell me, the first year at Manzanar, what was school like? I mean, what was the classes like?

SM: I don't even remember. It used to be, they used to get one of those barrack quarters and used that as a classroom. And I don't know. I don't even know exactly what we learned over there. [Laughs]

TI: Well, earlier, you talked about enjoying sports. In Manzanar, did you do any sports like baseball?

SM: Oh, yeah, we used to play basketball and baseball and things like that. But, you know, it was quite a bit later that they had organized baseball and basketball.

TI: How about things like judo tournaments? So did they do judo at all?

SM: Yeah, we used to have judo, kendo tournaments there, you know.

TI: During the break we talked a little bit about your organized sports and you did track and field in high school, too, but probably not at Manzanar, but more when you were in Los Angeles. So track and... can you describe what kind of events you did in track and field?

SM: Well, pole vault was my specialty in track. And the shotput was just my extra, that thing that I did, but I wasn't too good at that.

TI: So now, when they do pole vault, they use these fiberglass poles. But in your day, what would they use to...

SM: It was all bamboo, mostly bamboo. Then every now and then they'll bring in an aluminum pole, but it was too stiff. So you had to have the spring, and it was hard to get a bamboo pole that was appropriate for pole vaulting.

TI: Wow. So the good, to really do well, a good bamboo pole would be better than an aluminum pole?

SM: Oh, yeah, much better.

TI: But then how long would a bamboo pole last? Because I imagine with the wear and tear, when you hit the box, it'd put a lot of stress on that.

SM: Yeah. It lasted pretty good, you know.

TI: And in those days, did you have your own personal pole or did everybody share?

SM: Oh, yeah, well, the... well, in any sport or whatever, the better athlete gets to get the first choice of all the equipment. [Laughs] And so everybody had their own pole, more or less, you come down the line to pick out, you get the choice of pole when they bring 'em in. [Laughs]

TI: And so in these days, so I'm thinking around 1940 or so, how high were you going with a bamboo pole?

SM: Well, I think I did 11'9", and that was pretty good for high school. That was good enough to go to the city, L.A. city finals. So, you know, I didn't place there, but I was good enough to compete there, let's put it that way. [Laughs]

TI: And the relative, so you're going close to twelve feet. What would be, kind of, at that point, with bamboo poles, like the elite athletes, what would they be doing?

SM: Yeah, in about, 13 foot would be about the limit for high school at that time.

TI: Uh-huh. And college, they would be a little higher?

SM: Yeah, in college, they probably did maybe 14 feet or better.

TI: Yeah, because I think a lot of the high school -- yeah, if you went 12 feet with a fiberglass pole, that was doing pretty well in high school, until you got to the elite level. Interesting.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So going back to Manzanar, I want to talk, after a few months, the government came out with a questionnaire, it was called the "leave clearance," and other people called it a "loyalty questionnaire." Do you remember when the government did that?

SM: I don't remember exactly, but I know I answered "no-no" to both questions.

TI: Now, do you recall talking with people about that decision, or how you came to that decision?

SM: Well, I think my mind was made up quite a while before that. When we were evacuated from Terminal Island, you know, that's about the time I was starting to feel that I, there was no future in this country for us.

TI: And so it was building up, so would you say prior to the war, did you have any thoughts about going to Japan before the war?

SM: No, I didn't even think about that.

TI: So it sounds like after the war started, and how the government was treating you and other Japanese Americans, that you started getting this sense that maybe the United States was not the place for you?

SM: Yeah. That's what I felt.

TI: Now, did you, were there other people like that that you kind of shared this thinking with?

SM: Well, there were a lot of people that felt the same as I did. And there were others that didn't feel that way, either.

TI: And when you have these two different ways of thinking, how did the groups interact about this issue? Did you guys talk about it, not talk about it?

SM: Well, there were some conflicts between the groups, you know. But I think a lot of times, each group ignored, you know, not talking about it.

TI: But in your group, and this is, I'm sure if you're, it might be a hard one. But how would you characterize the other side? Did you guys talk about, like, your point of view versus the other point of view and discuss that?

SM: My personal feeling was that different people feel different way, of different things. So personally, their feeling was their business. I felt that way, but there were other people that didn't feel that way. There were other people that, they resented the fact that they were thinking differently.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: And so while this was going on, and there were some people who were thinking that maybe this, that the United States was not the country for them, were there any, like, organized sort of meetings or groups to kind of talk about this, the Seinendan or anything like that in Manzanar?

SM: Well, there were people that used to have these meetings. I guess whether you call them educated or, you know... but like for myself, I just went along with what they decided was the thing to do, you know. And it was either pro or con. [Laughs]

TI: And how would you get this information? When you said you kind of listened to these people and they may have been more educated, how did they communicate that to you?

SM: Well, it's just between talks.

TI: So more informally kind of maybe at the mess hall or some other places where you'd run into them and talk about that?

SM: I never sat in on a meeting where these people discussed different things.

TI: But were you aware that some of these meetings were going on?

SM: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. But you know, I can't express myself too good anyway. [Laughs] And to get into a conversation like that, it was out of the question.

TI: And do you have a sense of how people perceived this group that was meeting, in terms of the people talking about them and what they were talking about?

SM: Well, that's why there were some people that resented the groups or whatever, and that's why there were conflicts between the two groups.

TI: And when you say conflicts, can you describe what a conflict would be? Did it ever come to physical altercations?

SM: Oh, yeah, I imagine there were a few physical, that thing, and then especially a lot of the people that were against the authorities there.

TI: And for you, were you ever involved in any, like, altercation, whether it's verbal or physical?

SM: Not that I know of.

TI: I'm guessing they probably stayed away from you because of your judo and everything, too. [Laughs]

SM: No, I pretty much stayed away from all those conflicts. Like even in Manzanar, they had these demonstrations where people got shot at and so forth. But I was never in a group like that, you know. I guess I was just lucky, I guess, I just wasn't the... [laughs].

TI: So earlier we were talking about the group of eight that went up fishing. Of your buddies that you went with, how would you characterize them? Were they on sort of the more pro-Japan side, or the pro-, more U.S. side? How would you describe that group?

SM: I imagine there were different opinions, but we didn't talk about that. This was different from all that stuff.

TI: And so that was kind of like a separate issue. I mean, you had your friends, you did things, and this was kind of more of a individual decision.

SM: Yeah, right.

TI: But do you recall, of those eight, how many of them, in the same way, answered maybe "no-no" to questions 27 and 28 versus "yes-yes"? Can you remember that?

SM: Well, like my brother-in-law and them, they stayed back. So they must have answered it differently from... like my sister was married in camp, and, you know, I don't know what they answered, but they must have answered differently, 'cause they weren't segregated to Tule Lake.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So within the family, even within the family, there wasn't that much discussion, that this was really something that you personally kind of formed your own thoughts?

SM: But like my brothers and I, well, my younger brother, he had no choice, because he was underage. And I guess as for my other brother and I, we were just, just plum against the government.

TI: And how about your mother? Did you have any discussions with your mother or correspondence with your father about this issue?

SM: Yeah, well, my father was very, you know, against what... when they were taken into custody and all that.

TI: And so was he able to communicate that? You said he was taken to a Department of Justice internment camp, and he was able to correspond...

SM: Well, I don't remember exactly how long it was, but he was sent to Manzanar from Bismarck.

TI: Okay, so...

SM: And then that's where we decided, when the questionnaire came up, then after that, we were sent to Tule Lake.

SM: Okay, so your father was back. So as a family, you would go.

TI: Do you recall any conflicts or tension between, say, your parents and your, the fact that your sister and her husband were not going to go to Tule Lake.

SM: Well, no, we didn't have hardly any conflict. We just... they wanted to do their thing, and we were gonna do our thing.

BT: So your sister married a Terminal Islander, Amos Hashimoto, right?

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

BT: And so your parents were probably pleased with the marriage?

SM: Yeah, sure.

BT: And Amos was the one you were hiking up in the mountains with.

SM: Yeah, yeah. Well, see, Amos I've known ever since I was a kid. We used to be neighbors on Terminal Island. And at that time, Amos and my sister, they knew of each other, but I don't think they even talked. But when they went to camp, we were neighbors again. And that's when they got together. I mean, I don't know. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: Yeah, I want to go back. So your father came to Manzanar when your family was there. I'm curious, did, had your father changed at all in that time period when he was away from the family? Did you see anything different about him in terms of his physical appearance or emotional?

SM: No, I didn't see any big difference, it was just the same, I would say.

TI: And when he talked about his experience, was he bitter about it, angry about it? Anything like that, do you recall?

SM: Well, it was just overall bitterness, I would say.

TI: So you, your brother, your parents, it sounds like, answered "no-no" on the questionnaire. So what happened next after that? I mean, so other families did a similar thing. Did you go to Tule Lake with a group, or can you describe sort of the journey from Manzanar to Tule Lake, and who else went with you?

SM: You know, I don't know exactly how we got there. I know we went by train, but like I've been telling Barbara, from about that time 'til the time I went to Santa Fe, there's not much I remember. [Laughs]

TI: Well, then, before we go to Tule Lake, so Manzanar, before you left, do you recall saying goodbye to anyone before you left, or what that was like?

SM: God... we must have said our goodbyes. [Laughs] But, like, I hardly remember any, any of that.

TI: So I looked at an earlier picture of you, you were a really good-looking young man. Did you have, like, girlfriends or people that you had to say goodbye to?

SM: No. I didn't have any special girlfriend or anything. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: And so it's kind of hazy going from Manzanar to Tule Lake. Do you recall at all, like, the first time you went to Tule Lake and how it seemed versus Manzanar? Just feeling-wise, did it seem about the same or were there differences?

SM: That's what I don't remember, you know. I hardly remember, I don't remember hardly anything about Tule Lake.

TI: Is there a feeling about Tule Lake? Was it a more difficult experience?

SM: I don't know. I just remember we used to run around camp, you know, doing our exercise and whatnot. And the rest of the time that they came to pick us up, I remember that. But other than that, I don't hardly remember anything.

TI: So things like when you're at Tule Lake, at Manzanar you were able to hike outside. Did you ever hike outside at Tule Lake, like Castle Rock?

SM: No, not that I remember.

TI: And was there a sense, because the security was maybe tighter at Tule Lake?

SM: It could have been tighter.

TI: How about the people that, do you recall any of the people from Manzanar at Tule Lake? You mentioned your family, but were there any other people that you...

SM: Oh, yeah. There was a group that went to Tule Lake, but like I say, Tule Lake is a blank. I don't know why it is, but it's a blank.

TI: That's fine. I'm going to ask Barbara, do you have any questions about Tule Lake that you'd like to maybe ask and see if there's anything.

BT: Yeah, well, we sort of sifted over, I guess, some of the issues at Tule Lake, but there's just no recollection.

SM: Yeah. That's real funny, you know.

BT: No, it's common. It's very common. Many people have just blanked out that period.

SM: I remember going to Tule Lake, and there's a few things I remember, that we used to run around camp. And the time they came to pick us up early in the morning.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: Well, so let's talk about the things you do remember. So running around camp, how much of that can you describe for me? So what was that like, and what time of day?

SM: Well, usually it was early in the morning. And I know I used to be one of the leaders, you know, leading the group. But that's about it.

BT: Well, how did that happen? That you were leading the group, do you remember that?

SM: Well, I used to do that in Manzanar.

BT: Oh.

SM: Yeah, I used to do the exercise group, I didn't know anything about leading. But like some of the guys, especially the Kibeis, they knew how to, how they exercise in Japan. And I guess I learned from them about what kind of exercise they do.

TI: And so once you saw that, because you're an athlete, you could easily show other people how to do it.

SM: Yeah, more or less. I guess I was just chosen to lead the group or something like that, I guess.

BT: But it started out from Manzanar.

SM: Oh, yeah.

BT: And was that, like, the Seinendan in Manzanar?

SM: Yeah, something like that.

BT: And it was mostly that you were interested in getting the exercise, or were you interested in the group's thinking?

SM: Well, it was a lot of things combined. Protest and whatever you want to call it.

TI: And so when you did this at Manzanar, was there any disapproval by the administration or the people when they saw your group exercising?

SM: I imagine there must have been. But I guess they left us alone, I guess.

TI: Because at this point, when you're doing this, you had already, were already, I guess, designated to go to Tule Lake?

SM: Oh, no. I think this was even before that.

TI: Interesting. And then, so in a similar way, so you were able to train people at Manzanar, so you remember doing the same thing at Tule Lake?

SM: Well, I guess that's what happened. [Laughs]

TI: How about the size of the group? Manzanar versus Tule Lake, do you recall more people at Tule Lake than Manzanar doing the exercise, or was it about the same?

SM: Well, of course, Tule Lake, I think there was a bigger group. Because it was people that had the same feeling that were brought there. Like in Manzanar, I think the group was a lot smaller.

TI: How about in terms of what people wore when they exercised, Manzanar versus Tule?

SM: What did we wear?

BT: A gray sweatshirt, the stencil of the rising sun?

SM: Yeah, somebody showed me that, but I don't remember that.

BT: You didn't shave your head?

SM: Well, I didn't shave it, but I think it was cut off, you know. [Laughs]

TI: And do you recall maybe the feeling? Was there a, when you had this group together doing exercises and maybe chanting, do you remember any of the feelings, like a good feeling or anything like that?

SM: [Laughs] I don't know whether it was good or bad, but I guess the anger part of yourself, you know, shows in your action, I think.

TI: So we're right at the end right now, so I'm going to end --

BT: One more question.

TI: Okay, go ahead.

BT: There is, I guess, a lot of people talk about how they were forced to be in the Hoshidan. Do you think that a lot of the young people who were doing the exercises in the morning were being forced?

SM: There could have been some.

BT: By, forced by who?

SM: Well, their parents, or older people or whatever. But I couldn't say.

BT: But for people to be participating in this activity, do you think that they wanted to do it?

SM: Well, most of 'em wanted to do it. But I imagine there were some that were pushed. [Laughs]