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TI: I'm going to kind of go through Manzanar kind of fast, but there's one thing I want to touch upon. You're eighteen years old, so you're a young man. And I've heard that you liked to fish when you were at Manzanar. So can you tell me a little bit about that? I mean, how did you go about going fishing, because that would be outside the perimeter.

SM: Well, sport fishing, you know, we did a little bit on Terminal Island. But in camp, these true sports fishermen, my brother-in-law, he was a, he liked to do that. And they, I used to tag along with them, and that's when we used to go fishing in the creek, you know.

TI: So describe to me how would you go from the camp to the creek? Because that was outside the barbed wires.

SM: Uh-huh. Well, during the early days, they used to have, we used to have a crew that used to go out, make irrigation ditches for the farm. Well, we used to, we cleared the sagebrushes for the farmers, and then after that we made irrigation ditches. And so we used to go out with the irrigation crew or the farmers, and then come back in with the group.

TI: Oh, so when the irrigation crew went out, you would go out with them?

SM: Yeah.

TI: And then from there you'd go fishing, and then you'd come back in and go back.

SM: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Now, was this done, do you think, did the administration or the guards kind of know what you guys were doing?

SM: Well, there must have been some people that knew. But when we went to the mountain, we took another route. See, they used to have a reservoir above the camp, and they used to have people that used to watch the reservoir, they used to have a little shack there, that they used to rotate and stay there. And at night, they used to have a change of shift, and we used to, we got on the panel truck, and everybody would lie down on the back, and then what these people did was they opened the gate and then they closed it, and then go under the tower, and they'd tell 'em that they're the crew for the reservoir. And we went to the reservoir, stayed there 'til early morning, and then we hiked up to the...

TI: So you were able to go up there, but whose idea was it to maybe go hiking up in the mountains?

SM: Well, they're... we weren't the first one. We were probably the fourth and fifth group that went up there. But somebody thought about going up there, you know, somebody knew there were... I found out later that the lakes up there were planted in 19... what was it? 1920-something, wasn't it? Yeah.

TI: So planted with trout or fish?

SM: Yeah, yeah. Well, we didn't know it at that time, but we thought we were catching golden trouts. But they were actually Colorado cutthroat, we found out later. [Laughs]

TI: So if they were planted a while ago, they must have been good-sized fish up there.

SM: Oh, yeah, it was good-sized trout.

TI: And so before you guys decided to do it on your own, you mentioned other groups going up there. And so when people would come back and you would hear the stories, what would you hear? What would make you want to do this?

SM: I don't know. I guess it's more, it's something to do, you know, from the normal camp life.

TI: Now when your, you mentioned the fishing, but I heard that on one of the trips, you actually climbed Mt. Williamson.

SM: Yeah.

TI: And so that's not to go fishing, that's actually to hike up --

SM: Oh, fish up there.

TI: But at the very top?

SM: Yeah, uh-huh. Almost to the top, we passed the timber line, and there's seven lakes up there. And I think three or four of the lakes, they used to have fish, and we used to fish up -- and it seemed like it was about a week, but I don't know. It must have been maybe a lot less. But we stayed up there, and we ate fish. [Laughs]

TI: And so you're at pretty high altitude up there, you're probably...

SM: Oh, yeah, it's over ten thousand feet, yeah. You know, timber line was about ten thousand, I would say.

TI: And so when you're that high up, at night it gets pretty cold.

SM: Oh, yeah.

TI: So did you have adequate clothing?

SM: Yeah, we had a sleeping bag. You know, in those days, sleeping bag was pretty bulky, you know. Nowadays have a lot, compact sleeping bags. But in those days... so, you know, there was eight of us that went out there. And half of the guys used to carry two sleeping bag on their back, plus other stuff in between. And the others carried other equipment, pots and pans.

TI: And so you're up there days, and maybe even a week. When you would come back, how would you get back into camp?

SM: Oh, the same way we did going out.

TI: Now, with your group, again, do you think the administration, the guards, kind of knew what was happening, or going on?

SM: Well, there must have been some people that know. but, you know...

TI: Now, did anyone ever get into trouble for going out and doing these excursions?

SM: Oh, yeah. There were some that were caught, but later on, I understand that people, they used to go out, they'll purposely identify themselves in the foothill, you know. And then they'll, the guards'll come up there to pick 'em up and take 'em back to camp. They don't have to walk back. [Laughs] You know, that's what I hear that happened later on. You know, some guy got the idea that rather than sneak back in, they had the guys come pick 'em up.

TI: So they might get a little [inaudible] or something.

SM: Yeah, or build a fire or something out there.

TI: And did you hear, when people were obviously caught in this case, what kind of trouble did they get in? Did they...

SM: I don't think... they just probably gave 'em a good talking and that's about it, I think. They couldn't do hardly anything.

TI: Now, did anybody ever get in trouble, like break a leg or anything on any of these hikes?

SM: Well, there was one guy that got, died up there in the mountain.

TI: And what happened? It was just exposure?

SM: Well, he was not a fisherman, either. He was an artist or something, yeah. Artist that went up with the group. And the guys that fish were together, but he went alone someplace, and I guess they got caught in the storm or whatever. Later on, they went up there to try to find him.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.