<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So eventually you end up in Arkansas, Jerome, Arkansas.

JN: Right, right.

TI: So describe that. What did Jerome, Arkansas, look like when you got there?

JN: Well, the thing I recall the most for some strange reason is this is my first encounter with kotonks. These are the people on the mainland, grew up on the mainland. Where the name came from is interesting, but the thing I remember first is when we got there, it wasn't... it doesn't look like it was completely done yet, it looked like it was muddy. They were digging, they were still kind of building ditches, I think, around each block as a drainage system. Because I remember falling into the drainage ditch, or being thrown in there or something. The thing I remember of my first encounter with the kotonks was because we, from Hawaii, we didn't wear shoes, and we would walk around without shoes. And the kotonks kids who had shoes on would say, "You barbarians." [Laughs] That was the beginning of my relationship with mainland Japanese. And I think we called them kotonks because it had to do with striking them, and then impact would be "kotonk," on hitting a Japanese American. I think that's what, that's my recollection of being called a barbarian, was the most, thing I remember. And being muddy, and I remember even being thrown or slipped into that ditch. And I remember everything was muddy.

TI: Well, so I'm guessing, from what I've heard about you and particularly your brothers, if they're called "barbarians" by the mainlanders, they didn't take too kindly to that, to that kind of treatment. So what kind of friction, or what happened after those kind of, sort of, verbal altercations where they call you names? What happened next?

JN: Well, insofar as the relationship between the Hawaii people -- well, for one thing, the Hawaii people were in three, we called them blocks. They were Blocks 38, 39 and 40. We were in Block 40. And... I lost my train of thought.

TI: And so I'm thinking, so the relationship between, especially amongst the boys, between the mainlanders and the Hawaii boys, how did they react during that time?

JN: There was always... the one I recall is that basically -- we call them kotonks -- the mainland Japanese, they were basically nice farm people, came from Sacramento areas and every other thing. A lot of the kids from Hawaii like my brother were more gang-oriented from growing up in Hawaii and in the high schools and intermediate schools here in Hawaii. And so they were more accustomed to gang fighting. And so when there were fights between, the tension between the local, I mean, the Hawaii people and the mainland people, kids, they weren't... kotonks, the mainland people weren't accustomed to having physical fights. They were more, basically, just nice farm kids. And here comes these people from, kids from Hawaii, and they were more gang-oriented, so they'd gang up on some nice farm kid, basically, is what. That's the impression I had, and Bert was one of the leaders all the time of this Hawaii gang and they would... in fact, there was one... oh, this is, I'm sorry, I'm jumping. It was in Tule Lake, actually. Japanese school, we had to go to Japanese school, and it was both kotonks and Hawaii people. And this Japanese teacher was -- we were all going back to Japan -- was teaching us Japanese in Japanese. And one of the Hawaii kids got cocky and talked and everything, and the teacher came up and hit him, and the guy turned around and whacked the teacher. To me, it was indicative, only the Hawaii kids would strike back a teacher, especially a Japanese school teacher. But anyway, that stuck in my mind all the time from way back. Again, indicating the difference between the Hawaii kids and -- the guy was, he was from the areas in Hawaii that were known for gang fighting.

TI: So it sounds like the Hawaii kids, especially the boys, were a little rougher, a little...

JN: Yeah, yeah. I always had the impression the kids from the mainland were more farm kids. There were some, in fact, who were, like, from San Pedro, and they were kind of, they were more citified. And I got close, I remember getting close to one of those guys. And he was closer to the Hawaii people, like, because he was kind of gang-oriented and every other thing. That was kind of interesting situation, he kind of took me under his arm.

TI: So in, going back to Jerome, did, pretty much, the Hawaii kids stuck together, and then the kotonks or the mainlanders kind of stuck together? There wasn't that much mingling?

JN: That's the impression I have, yeah, that there was tension between the two, basically.

TI: That's interesting.

JN: Yeah.

TI: 'Cause that kind of mirrors some of the stories I hear from some of the, like, 442 veterans, when the kotonks and the Hawaii boys met, there's that similar kind of friction.

JN: Probably, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright ©2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.