Densho Digital Archive - Bernadette Suda Horiuchi Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So we're gonna get started, Bernadette. And the way I start this is I do what's called a visual slate. So I mention the day, so today is May 19, 2009, it's a Tuesday, it's in the morning, and we're at the Densho studios. And also in the room for this interview is your son Paul, and on camera is Dana Hoshide, and I'm the interviewer, my name is Tom Ikeda. So thank you for joining us. So, Bernadette, I'm going to start from the very beginning, and why don't you tell me when you were born and where you were born.

BH: I was born in, actually, we lived in Bellevue because of the farm. But the winter, we had a farm and in the winter, there's nothing to do, so we came to Seattle to live, and that's when I was born. So I was actually born in Seattle, but we lived in Bellevue.

TI: And what day were you born, or what was your birthdate?

BH: February the 11th, 1913.

TI: Now, was that common for Bellevue families to both have a farm in Bellevue and a farm in Seattle?

BH: I don't think so. I think the only one I know is that we were the only ones. And, of course, the Takizakis already lived in Seattle. No, they lived in Bellevue also, but they came to Seattle earlier than we did.

TI: When you were born, what was the name given to you at birth?

BH: Setsuko.

TI: And then where did "Bernadette" come from?

BH: That was my Christening name.

TI: Oh, okay. So later, when you were Baptized...

BH: 1929.

TI: Now, was there -- and your maiden name was Suda.

BH: Yeah, Suda, S-U-D-A.

TI: Was there any significance to the name Setsuko? Do you know why they...

BH: No, I don't know. I didn't like the name, so I didn't use it very much. [Laughs] So he renamed me Mary, so it was Mary Suda for a long time.

TI: And who gave you the name Mary?

BH: My father.

TI: Okay, so first they named you Setsuko, and then later on they, you became Mary.

BH: Yeah. So I don't use Setsuko anymore.

TI: And then later on when you were Baptized, you went to Bernadette.

BH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So tell me a little bit about your father, you just mentioned your father. What was your father's name?

BH: Teikichi. I noticed on that thing that it's misspelled, but T-E-I-K-I... when I break it up, I can't spell it. [Laughs] Teikichi.

TI: And tell me a little bit about him. Where was he born?

BH: He was born in Japan in, way down in the southern part of the Izu Peninsula.

TI: And so do you know what prefecture that would be?

BH: Gosh, I don't know. Izu? Part of it is called Izu. It's a fishing village way down there. Actually, it's directly across from where... what do you call that man? Oh, what's his name, Townsend (Harris) or somebody?

TI: No, I don't know that. But that's okay. So Izu, and tell me a little bit about what your father's family did.

BH: I don't know what he did. Actually, I don't know too much about my family.

TI: Do you know why he decided to come to America?

BH: I think that's when everybody started to come. I think he landed in San Francisco.

TI: And do you know about what year that was?

BH: It was several years before I was born, so it must have been in the late 1890s or something? Is it 1890?

TI: Because you were born in 1913?

BH: 1913.

TI: In February. And so tell me a little bit about your mother. What was your mother's name, first?

BH: Her name was Iso, I-S-O. That's all I know. I think there was another name, but I don't know what the other one is. And I don't even know what Iso is. But she was called Iso, I-S-O.

TI: Do you know her maiden name?

BH: Suzuki.

TI: And what part of Japan was she from?

BH: That's down in, gosh, it's way down in the south, I don't know what you call that place.

TI: You mean like Kagoshima area? Down there?

BH: No, it's in Shizuoka.

TI: Oh, okay.

BH: But it's practically way at the tip of the, almost to the tip of the Shizuoka, sticks way out, I think. We were there, but I can't... Matsuzaki is actually, I think, what the place, the city or town or whatever it is. That I remember, Matsuzaki.

TI: And do you know much, anything about your mother's family in terms of what they did?

BH: I don't know anything about my mother's.

TI: How about how your mother and father met?

BH: I don't know either, 'cause they were in the same village, so I guess... I have no idea. They didn't... I wasn't interested in those days, either.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So you mentioned your father first came to San Francisco. Did he come with your mother?

BH: No, no. My mother didn't come 'til... see, my older sister was born in Japan. And I think right after she was born, he left, I guess. I don't know when that was. So I actually don't know when she was... she was born in 1904, I think.

TI: And what was your older sister's name?

BH: Tamako Kitajo. I mean, her married name is Kitajo.

TI: And any other siblings besides...

BH: Oh, I had a brother George. And then after George was Minoru. Then it was my sister Sumako, and then Yoshiko. I think that makes it seven. [Laughs]

TI: So one, two... so five children and then two adults? Or seven children?

BH: Seven altogether. My sister and me and then the rest.

TI: So do you know how they decided to go to Bellevue? I mean, what was...

BH: Well, my father came earlier, earlier than my mother. I guess, you know, when the men all started out. [Laughs] So he landed in San Francisco, I guess, with all the rest of the people. And they were looking for a job, I think. I don't know much about them because they didn't, you know, I wasn't interested in that when I was young. He told me a lot of stories about all the places he's been. I guess all over as far as Montana and all those places that they tried to get jobs, whatever they can get.

TI: And so Montana, what were some other places that you can recall?

BH: I really don't know. But I imagine, it was all Western part of, all over, Yakima. I've heard him mention Yakima sometimes.

TI: Did he ever talk about the type of jobs that he did from place to place?

BH: No, he didn't. All kinds of jobs that they can get, and I think one of the things that stands in my mind is when he was working in a ranch. He had to take care of cattle, I guess. One incident he told us about is -- now, how true this is I don't know. Maybe, you know how they all make up a lot of stuff, I think. [Laughs] But he was working a cowboy ranch, things like that.

TI: That's interesting. You wonder how they learned how to do these things. I mean, if I went to a ranch or something, I wouldn't know what to do as a cowboy or ride a horse or anything like that. So they would just go and do these things.

BH: And a lot of things I don't know because he died early, too. He died when he was only forty-eight.

TI: How would you describe him as a man? What kind of personality did your father have?

BH: Well, he was quite a knowledgeable man, I guess. 'Cause all the Isseis used to come and ask his advice for a lot of things. Like if this man has a, had a daughter and wants to get married or something, and then my father and all the others, Mr. Takizaki and them, they used to go around and inquire about the, what kind of a family they came from. I remember him doing that. So we used to have a lot of men come over and talk to my father about things like that.

TI: So this was in Bellevue?

BH: Bellevue, yeah.

TI: So he was, like, maybe described maybe as a community leader?

BH: Sort of, yes.

TI: How about your mother? How would you describe your mother?

BH: She was real quiet. When you're young kids, you're not interested too much about your family until they're gone, then you remember. I wished I had remembered more about them.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So I'm curious. Going back to, in the summertime or spring, you're in Bellevue working on the farm. When you're in Seattle in the wintertime, what kind of activities did you do?

BH: My father's sister ran a hotel where the parking lot is on Main and... was it between Sixth and Seventh, right behind the Panama Hotel? There used to be an old rooming house there. And I remember every winter, because my aunt, my father's sister kind of managed it, so we used to come and stay in Seattle all the time. That's why I was born in Seattle. I was born up there by the old... what was that place now? What was that place?

TI: That's okay.

BH: Nippon Kan Hall.

TI: Oh, sure. Actually, my wife and I got married there. So that's kind of a special place.

BH: There was a house, there used to be a lot of old houses now, I don't think there's any remaining but there used to have two doors and one goes upstairs, one on the main floor, one of those places up there. Right near, it must have been the top of the hill there, Seventh or Eighth Avenue, isn't it, up there.

TI: So in the wintertime, at first I thought you guys were resting, but actually, you guys were working. So you could work kind of helping out with the hotel, things like that.

BH: I don't think so. We just lived there, but I don't know what my father was doing at that time. He was living there, too, but I mean, what kind of work he was doing, I don't know.

TI: Now, growing up, did you have a preference between living in Bellevue or living in Seattle? 'Cause they were such different types of places.

BH: I liked the city at that time because there was Japantown, I guess they called it in those days, so we had a lot of fun going to different places.

TI: And so growing up, in the wintertime, did you attend school in Seattle?

BH: During the wartime?

TI: No, before the war, so when you were growing up. So when you were, like, in elementary school...

BH: Oh, I went to Bellevue grade school and graduated from Bellevue. And right after that is when the accident happened.

TI: But before then, in the wintertime when you were in Seattle, were you attending school? Did you go to school?

BH: No, 'cause I wasn't old enough, I guess.

TI: Oh, so this was even before.

BH: Before, uh-huh.

TI: Okay, so before you were going to school, you would spend some time in Seattle, then in Bellevue. But when school started, then pretty much you lived in Bellevue.

BH: Yes. I went to first grade in Bellevue.

TI: And during this time, was your... you mentioned you had an older sister in Japan. Did she stay in Japan?

BH: She stayed over there with the grandmothers. She came over when she was sixteen, I believe.

TI: But prior to that, you were the, you were the oldest?

BH: Oldest. I was oldest, yeah.

TI: So when you started first grade, was that pretty much the time when you guys stayed then?

BH: Stayed in Bellevue and I remember I went to grade school and I was scared to go by myself. I remember there was an older girl who took me to school.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: So tell me a little bit about what the Japanese community was like in Bellevue during this time. So you're... it was like...

BH: We didn't have any special place. We just walked, everything was walking in those days. And we'd go visit our friends, but they were all a distance away. But the Takizakis lived right close to us.

TI: Now, describe where you lived in Bellevue.

BH: Bellevue, right now is where Bellevue parking lot is, we lived on that corner. This corner and the parking lot's over on this side. So I think it's First Avenue.

TI: So the parking lot to Bell Square? That parking lot?

BH: Uh-huh, yes. Just kitty-corner from the northwest corner.

TI: Okay, northwest...

BH: There was farm there.

TI: That's amazing. Just within a block or so from the current Bellevue Square, which is a large shopping mall.

BH: Yes. Of course, I don't know how far, maybe it was city blocks, I don't know how many. In those days, they didn't have any blocks. [Laughs]

TI: And during that time, do you know if your parents owned the land, or were they leasing it?

BH: No, we had to lease it. Fortunately, we had a very nice, people that used to lease it to us. And I remember we lived in a log cabin, that was quite, it's about a mile north of where we lived.

TI: So explain that again. You said you lived in a log cabin?

BH: Uh-huh, my brother was, I think, born there at the time. It was about a mile north of where we lived.

TI: So describe the log cabin for me. How large was it, what did it look like?

BH: It was made out of logs, and they had, I don't know what they had in between, but I remember we were cold because wind would come through those cracks, you know, between the logs.

TI: Now, do you know who made the log cabin?

BH: No, I have no idea.

TI: And what kind of farming did your family...

BH: We didn't do much there, but mostly strawberries. I don't know what they did at that time, but after that we moved and went to a better place where Lakeview is now. Bellevue's richest place right now, we had a better farm there. And that was just before the accident.

TI: So when you moved to Lakeview, how large were these farms? How large was your farm?

BH: Oh, I think it was like three acres or something, I don't know. But as a child, not interested in those things. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Before we get to the accident, I'm just curious what a typical day was like in Bellevue for you.

BH: It was nice, we were just, you know, no prejudice or anything like that we got along with everybody. We had lots of hakujin neighbors, very nice.

TI: Now, do you remember, if you could think back who some of your best friends were back in these...

BH: I did have very good friends. They used to live, from where we lived, it was about... I don't know how many blocks it would be. But had a girlfriend there and they were very good to us. To this day, I don't know where, she left, they moved to Yakima eventually. I don't know where they are now, but she was my best friend.

TI: Do you remember her name?

BH: Evelyn Parrish.

TI: And so she was hakujin?

BH: Yeah.

TI: Evelyn Parrish. And what were some of the things that you and Evelyn would do?

BH: Oh, there used to be a little tree, I don't know what they call that, you know, small trees where we used to go in there and play house and things like that.

TI: So actually inside the tree you would play?

BH: No, no, around it. Those small trees, they're not those big trees. We used to go in there and play house.

TI: And if people were to describe you as a student, what kind of student would...

BH: I wasn't very smart. [Laughs] Average, I guess. Maybe a little below average, I don't know.

TI: But how would they describe you personality-wise? They'd say, "Bernadette is..."

BH: Oh, yeah. I was known as Mary in those days.

TI: Oh, Mary.

BH: Yeah.

TI: And what would they say about you, Mary, or about Mary back then?

BH: I don't know. I have no idea what they...

TI: Okay.

BH: School was way down there on First and... where the Meydenbauer Bay is right now. It was an old, looked like an old abandoned church. Upstairs was the high school, and down below was a grade school. We used to have one row of first graders, and second graders on the second row and so forth. So up to four grades in one room.

TI: And so in your grade, about how many kids would there be?

BH: Probably ten or so, ten or eleven.

TI: So it's kind of like when you hear about the, kind of, one room schoolhouse.

BH: Yes, that's what it was. They had a great big boiler or something next to me in school to heat the place.

TI: I'm curious. Of the people that you went to school with, how many of them stayed in Bellevue for their whole lives?

BH: I have no idea, 'cause I left, after the accident, we left, so I wouldn't know.

TI: So you didn't really stay in touch with anyone after...

BH: No.

TI: Any other stories about growing up in Bellevue that you remember? Anything that comes to mind? Like, whether the cemetery or any other...

BH: Well, I had a brother who died that was between me and my brother George. He died, and I remember there was a plot way up there by the... I think it's 116th out in Bellevue. I don't know what the street number in those days. But they had a cemetery there with all Japanese, most of 'em, with a Japanese name on it. 'Cause I heard later on that during the war, they tore it all, destruct, people came out and anything with a Japanese name, they just took the gravestone off or something, so mixed up, I don't know what happened after that.

TI: And how did your brother die?

BH: He was born dead, I think. I think they said he had a, they called it "blue baby" in those days, I guess. So I have no idea.

TI: And so you mentioned during the war, there was a lot of, I guess, anti-Japanese vandalism. But before the war, you said it was pretty good in terms of...

BH: Yeah. In Wyoming it was real nice.

TI: Well, before Wyoming, Bellevue, I mean, Bellevue was, you thought, before the war was, they were good to the Japanese.

BH: Well, we just got along with the neighbors, everybody. We got along fine in school.

TI: And, boy, do you have a sense of how large the community was, Japanese community was back then?

BH: You know, it's hard because they were all scattered wherever their land was. We were sort of removed from everybody. I mean, the others were, they had a place, it's called Midlakes at that time, but it's where all the Safeway and all the... there's a little lake there, and they were around it, around the thing. They had real good soil, so it's all in a row. They used to have farms.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So when you were, I think you were about fourteen or fifteen was when the accident happened?

BH: Uh-huh, I was fifteen.

TI: Fifteen. Can you tell me what happened? Describe what happened.

BH: Well, we were, in the wintertime, of course, we were in Seattle, living at Seattle, and that was in early 1928, I guess, because we lived there. And then we went to a farm out in Auburn to help out, 'cause we were all finished with our farming. So they used to, people used to want help, so we used to go and help them. And that was in Auburn.

TI: And then what happened? So you were in Auburn, and then you're coming home?

BH: Then it was, I think it was, like, August or something, July. Oh, no, it was July, this accident. So it was July, we decided, I think we were all finished with helping them, so we came back to Bellevue. My mother said, "Well, we have to get ready for school, so she said, "I have to go do some sewing," making clothes for us or something. So we left, and I guess we were there until July. Accident happened right at that time, right after we got back. We were visiting friends, the Takizakis in Bellevue, from Bellevue to Seattle, and they lived up there on Fourteenth and Fir, something like that. And we visited with them, my father's very close friends. They were always visiting each other. I guess that's about all.

TI: So you were, so the family was visiting the Takizakis in Seattle.

BH: Because of, my father took the whole family and decided we'd better do some shopping.

TI: And do you recall what day this was?

BH: July the 23rd, 1928.

TI: And was it a weekend or weekday?

BH: We must have stayed there three or four days, and then we went home.

TI: Okay. But the day you traveled back, do you remember what day it was?

BH: That was July 23rd.

TI: Was that a, like a Saturday or a Sunday?

BH: Gosh, I don't remember.

TI: And so you had to take the ferry back to Bellevue, because that was before they had bridges. And the ferry dock was at Leschi?

BH: Leschi.

TI: Okay. So describe, then, what happened.

BH: Well, I don't know if you know that street from Yesler, top of the hill and down to the ferry is quite a long ways with all steep hill. So we, my father was driving an old Model T, there was nine of us in that Model T.

TI: And so tell me first who was in the Model T.

BH: Oh, my whole family, my brothers and sisters and the two Takizaki girls.

TI: Okay, so the whole family and then the two Takizakis.

BH: Two girls, uh-huh.

TI: So there were nine of you in this old Model T.

BH: Old Model T.

TI: Coming down the hill.

BH: Coming down, and you know how you keep, the brakes probably, they said the brakes were all gone by the time we got to the ferry. But fortunately, he stopped, but he didn't know about that until later. And then when the ferry was still in Bellevue, I guess when it finally landed in Leschi, they told us we can get on. So my father was, being early, we were the very first car because we were early, and it was eleven something at night.

TI: And my father, they told us to come on, so my father put the car into the ferry. And it wouldn't stop. Kept on going, kept on going until we got to the other end and fell into the lake.

TI: Oh, so you went onto the ramp, onto the ferry, and then...

BH: They had a chain, they said, one chain I guess. After that, they put two.

TI: And do you recall, while this was happening, what was happening inside the car? Do you remember?

BH: I have no idea. 'Cause we were, it was one of those old cars that was open, so everybody got out. And so they didn't find anybody in the car when they found the car.

TI: But while the car was on the ferry...

BH: Yeah, going onto the ferry we were all in there.

TI: And then the brakes weren't working. Do you recall your father saying anything?

BH: He didn't say anything but I could tell he was, that he was having panic.

TI: And where were you sitting when this was...

BH: In the backseat someplace.

TI: And so then describe, so the car goes into the water.

BH: Uh-huh. And then we all got scattered around, I guess. I remember my brother and I, we could swim, so we swam and then got up to the top, top of the ferry, water. But people on the ferry were trying to help us. All the young men were there. Some of them were diving into the lake, and they handed, somebody handed me one of those brooms that they had on the ferry, I guess. So he said, "Grab this broom." And I tried several times, and I'd go under, and then I'd come up, I kept on doing it until I finally grabbed the broom and they pulled me up. So I didn't know who was there or who was saved or anything.

TI: And it was dark, too.

BH: Oh, it was eleven, the ferry was eleven something. But it was summer so it wasn't cold or anything.

TI: So you mentioned that your brother also was able to...

BH: He was in there, and I don't know what happened to them. I thought maybe I lost him and all my siblings. But fortunately the shore patrol, they picked up quite a few. I think one of the Takizaki girls. But we lost one Takizaki girl, our friend.

TI: And so explain. So of the nine...

BH: There were seven, seven saved.

TI: Seven were saved.

BH: I think so. Yeah, because we lost two.

TI: And so two were, died.

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And which --

BH: Well, my other sisters all died, too. So just, out of the nine, three of us were saved.

TI: Okay, so six died, and three were saved.

BH: Yeah.

TI: And so which three were saved?

BH: My, well, my father -- not my father. Just one, one of the Takizaki girls, and my brother and I, three of us.

TI: So you, your brother, and one of the Takizakis, and the rest perished.

BH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So while this happened, so after they pulled you out, what happened next?

BH: I don't remember very much. But when we got, picked us up and they took us to the hospital, I guess, in those days, the hospital was down on Yesler, almost at the foot of the, I think it's Third Avenue or Fourth Avenue, there was that triangle building used to be, I don't know if you... but that was a hospital and police station, I think, at the time. So they put us into the, upstairs into the hospital.

TI: And so they had an ambulance take you up to Yesler...

BH: I don't even know who took us or anything. So three of us landed in that place, Takizaki girl and my brother and I.

TI: And at what point did you learn or hear that your, the rest of your family had...

BH: Well, the next day they were trying to recover, but they didn't find anybody alive.

TI: And were you able to see your brother during this time?

BH: Yeah, he came. He finally came in the same room we were in, but he was saved much later than I was. I think the shore patrol or somebody saved him. And also the Takizaki girl, too. But all I remember is I thought I was the only one when I came to.

TI: Boy, it's hard for me to imagine what it was like when you, when this happened and when you found out. Can you recall any of your thoughts?

BH: No, I just kind of wondered how many of them saved and kept, every time, we asked the nurse or somebody, "Has any other family come?" She said, "Nobody." And I think they found everybody else, later, the next day. 'Cause it was dark, so it was hard for them to save everybody, they didn't know where they were.

TI: Do you recall any visitors when you were in the hospital?

BH: No. Except the, Mr. Takizaki, I think, came to see us because his daughter was there.

TI: Do you recall her saying anything to you?

BH: Uh-uh, no.

TI: And when you were in the hospital, what were they treating you for?

BH: I don't know because all I know is that we ended up in the hospital, and we drank a lot of that dirty water. [Laughs] Gallons of it, I guess.

TI: So your lungs were pretty much filled with water, and they needed to clear those out.

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: Do you recall how long you were there?

BH: I think it was just overnight, 'cause we weren't really injured or anything like that. It was just from drowning, almost drowning.

TI: So where did you go after this?

BH: Then he took us over to Mr. Takizaki's house. We stayed there for quite a while, until the funeral was over.

TI: So tell me about the funeral. Where was it held?

BH: It was at Bonney-Watson. So after the funeral they were, we had five caskets all lined up.

TI: Right. And so the Takizakis had a separate funeral.

BH: They had a separate one, 'cause he had a, she got married at Maryknoll, I think. She was at Maryknoll at the time.

TI: Do you recall any thoughts, like, during the funeral when this was going on, anything that you could recall from the funeral?

BH: I was only about fifteen, and I didn't think much about anything at the time. Wondering what happened to the family.

TI: And family friends, relatives, do you recall anything?

BH: No, we only knew the Takizakis. They were the only ones we kept in contact. The rest were all farmers. Except the men would go visit all the different farmers, but...

TI: So you were, you said, so the Takizakis took care of you. So they were living in Seattle.

BH: They were living, they had a grocery store on Twelfth across from Kono Garage. And they already had how many children at the time, so they said they couldn't take me in there. So that's why they took me to Maryknoll, and I stayed there until I was sixteen, seventeen.

TI: You were fifteen when the accident happened, how old was your brother?

BH: He's three years younger.

TI: So he was about twelve?

BH: He was twelve.

TI: And what was your brother's name?

BH: George.

TI: George was twelve. And so did both you and George go to Maryknoll?

BH: No, he didn't. My sister, older sister, lived in Renton, and she was married, and so they took him.

TI: So why, why did you go to Maryknoll and not to your sister's?

BH: Well, I don't know. They were having trouble, too, in those days, so they couldn't take both of us. So they took George, 'cause he was a boy and they could put him to work later, I guess. [Laughs]

TI: Do you recall how you felt about going to Maryknoll?

BH: Well, it was nice because I knew the Takizaki family and they all went to school there. So it felt just like home. In fact, they treated me like one of the family all the time, so even now, they treat me like a family.

TI: The Takizakis?

BH: The children, yeah, the kids.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So describe to me what Maryknoll was like when you went there?

BH: Well, it was, it was nice because away from the farming. But we did our little chore. Everybody had to... 'cause I was fifteen, so we took care of the little kids. So there were a whole lot of little kids that parents were gone, or one died, one of the parents died, so they sent the children there.

TI: And about how many children were...

BH: Oh, we had quite a few, I don't know. I couldn't tell you how many. But they had parents, too, but they had hotels, and I guess they had to put them someplace, so they used to have a bus that used to pick up all the kids. And then they spent the day at Maryknoll and then they'd take the, the brothers would take them back to their hotel or wherever they lived.

TI: But then after they took those kids home, how many kids were left there to stay overnight?

BH: No, I was the only one that stayed. The rest were all... 'cause one of the Takizaki girls, of course, lived with their parents.

TI: And so when you were there, the only child there, who took care of you at night?

BH: No, no, there were nuns there. And there were other little kids, their parents were separated or mothers gone or fathers gone. So they were just left alone. So with the younger children, well, we took care of them after they started to live at Maryknoll.

TI: So that's what I'm trying to get a sense of, who lived at Maryknoll? How many people were there?

BH: Gosh, I don't know.

TI: Was it more like under...

BH: Ten.

TI: And were you one of the older ones?

BH: I was the oldest.

TI: And so you were called upon to help out?

BH: Yeah, so we help out, give the kids bath and so forth.

TI: So roughly about ten children, you were the oldest.

BH: There were several other girls, too, there were other older kids, but they were Filipinos and other nationalities.

TI: So of the ten or so children, how many were Japanese?

BH: That lived there?

TI: Uh-huh.

BH: I don't know. Not too many.

TI: Okay, just a few.

BH: Just a few. I think there was Chinese, I don't know. There were about, seems like there were about twelve or so that lived there, and the bus would take them around.

TI: And how were the nuns in terms of taking care of you?

BH: Oh, they were real good.

TI: And during this time, who was the Father?

BH: Father Murrett. He was a nice man. He was jolly, he can play the piano. Any popular song the girls would say, "Play this, Father," and he'd, from memory he'd just pound the piano, real nice.

TI: And then would people sing along with him?

BH: Oh, yeah. Later on I met him in Kyoto, years later, with some of the nuns. They have a place over there in Kyoto someplace.

TI: That must have been special.

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And what was a typical day like at Maryknoll for you? Like on a Saturday, for instance?

BH: We had to do all the help around the, clean the house.

TI: And I'm guessing around this time is when you were, you were Baptized?

BH: I don't know how soon after that, I don't know. The accident was in July, and that was May, the following May, I was Baptized.

TI: And that's when you were named Bernadette?

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And at that point you went from Mary to Bernadette?

BH: Yes. Well, actually, it's Mary Bernadette, the whole thing. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so Mary Bernadette?

BH: But it was too much, so I just use Bernadette.

TI: And I'm curious why they didn't just use Mary.

BH: Well, I don't know. 'Cause I wanted Bernadette because of the girl, there's a girlfriend that I visited, a neighbor of ours, and she used to visit all the time, and her name was Bernadette. And I said, "Gee, that's a pretty name." And so I said, "Oh, that's a good name. When it comes time to be Baptized, I want that Bernadette." So that's why.

TI: Okay so you were a pretty strong-willed woman. You kind of knew what you wanted.

BH: Not much. [Laughs]

TI: Well, for your name, for instance, rather than just go along with Mary, you found a --

BH: Well, I kept that Mary, too, so it's Mary Bernadette, actually.

TI: Okay. I'll have to put that in my notes.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: So you said you were at Maryknoll for, what, a couple years?

BH: Fifteen, sixteen, I was there 'til, must be about a year and a half or two, I guess, but I lived there even after I went to school, I lived there. Because I went to Immaculate High School, which is only about two blocks away.

TI: And then after...

BH: Then after sixteen or so, they insisted, the nuns said we should go out and get some experience. So people would call in and ask if they want to, somebody to come and live with them to be a babysitter or something like that.

TI: So like a live-in housekeeper or nanny kind of thing.

BH: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Okay. And how was that? How did you like doing that?

BH: That was all right. They treated me nicely.

TI: And so generally who would you work for? What kind of families would you...

BH: Oh, they were, well, the first one I went to was, the father was a banker. And they had three boys.

TI: And do you remember, like, what neighborhood this would be in?

BH: I think it's Capitol Hill, lower Capitol Hill, I guess. It's a block up from the freeway, I remember.

TI: And what kind of things would you do at the house?

BH: I think I would help cooking, and washing dishes and taking care of the younger ones. They were close to my age. I think the oldest one was about my age, three boys.

TI: And do you remember for this first family, how long you did this?

BH: I went to school from there. They usually give me bus fare to go to school every day. So I must have gone there about a year.

TI: And so this was still Immaculate?

BH: I was still going to school. Then I heard of another family that wanted, looking for somebody, so I decided I'm going to go to that. That was the last family I stayed with. It was the Rogers family.

TI: And what was it about this other family that made you decide you'd rather work with them than this first...

BH: Well, I don't know. Living there with three boys, so others were girls, they had a daughter and two, twins, three girls. Three girls and a boy. And he was just a little kid then.

TI: So going back to that first family with three boys, was it pretty hard?

BH: No, it was nice. They were all good to me. Either place, they were all, treated real nice.

TI: Okay, but you just thought going to a family with three girls would be better. So you did this, you were now about seventeen years old?

BH: No, must be seventeen.

TI: Okay, so about seventeen.

BH: Seventeen, eighteen.

TI: And then what happened? About now is when you graduated from high school also?

BH: I graduated in the meantime.

TI: And so what happened next?

BH: After that, then I went to this other family I stayed with 'til the very end. In fact, they treated me like a family. They were people from Boston.

TI: And do you recall what that father did in that family?

BH: He was an eastern representative of some tool company. And he was real nice, and so they had one older girl, and she married a doctor at the end, and then they had twins, twin girls and a boy. The little boy is the one I took care of, mostly.

TI: Okay, so you did this, and then what happened after that?

BH: Oh, after that I got married. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So let's go there, let's talk about who you met. What's the first time you met your husband?

BH: Well, Mr. Takizaki, he was one of the people, because I didn't have any parents, so he told me about him. And it just so happened that Lucius' father, this father and my husband were cousins, and so after that, I went over there. But they had a lot of children already, Lucius, I think, was the youngest at the time. And so...

TI: So do you recall, before you met your husband, how they described him? When they said, "We want you to meet this young man, how did they describe him?

BH: Oh, he says, "Well, he's," first they were warning me, says, "You know, he's from out in Wyoming." And I thought, "Wyoming?" But he said, "He works outside so he's very dark." And I thought, "Oh, my." They were describing him, I think.

TI: And so when you heard that, so he was Wyoming, he worked outside a lot, so did you think of him more as a laborer type of person or a farmer type of person?

BH: And when they told that he worked on the railroad...

TI: And what came to mind when you heard that? I mean, what did...

BH: Well, they were trying to marry us off, because, you know, to get rid of us, I guess. [Laughs] And I met some people at sixteen, and I didn't like them. [Laughs] So when Mr. Takizaki described, well, told me about him, I thought, well, they said, "You're getting older," said, "you should hurry up and settle down." But he was just like a father to me, took the place of my father after my parents died. He was just like one of the family. To this day, they treat me like one of the family.

TI: But going back to this, before you met Paul, it sounds like you felt that they were trying to just move you along.

BH: Well, in those days, girls, they expected girls to be married when you were about sixteen, sixteen, seventeen.

TI: So you were getting old, you were eighteen...

BH: I was getting to be eighteen.

TI: You had finished high school, so they were...

BH: Then I stayed with this Rogers family until I got married. I was through with school by that time.

TI: So describe when you first met your husband. What was that like?

BH: [Laughs] Well, so I expected somebody who was real dark. He came over to the Takizaki family to where I first met them. I've never told any of my kids. [Laughs]

TI: Go ahead, what's that?

BH: They said, "Well, you're not getting any younger," he said, "you should settle down." And they were so worried about me being, running around single, you know, "You should settle down. I have a man here that I want you to meet." And, of course, he had no idea that he was gonna have a meeting with me, either.

TI: So Paul did not know he was going to meet you?

BH: Well, his cousin, Lucius' father, of course, described me. Because we knew his father from years ago, too, my father knew them. So, "He's visiting from Wyoming and you should meet him," and all that. So I, finally, we met over at Takizakis for the first time, and he wanted to, I guess, impress me that he's not exactly a railroad man, that he also does painting. So he brought over a painting and showed it to me, so he's talented. [Laughs]

TI: And so what did you, when you saw his painting that he brought, what did you think of the painting?

BH: It was his self-portrait, which we still have.

TI: And do you recall, when you saw the painting, what you thought of it?

BH: Well, I always liked art anyway, so I thought that was pretty nice. He does this kind of work besides railroad.

TI: And so when you saw that self-portrait, did it come across as anything special?

BH: Oh, yeah. I knew he was above a lot of people, 'cause most of 'em I met were farmers or something like that. So I thought, "At least he's talented."

TI: So you recognized his talent.

BH: Oh, yes. He showed us the painting and everything.

TI: Now, in the same way that people told you about Paul, that he was from Wyoming, he might be dark, what did they tell Paul about you when they described...

BH: Well, he's the one that said, "Looks like Mona Lisa." [Laughs] That's where it got started.

TI: So do you recall who said that?

BH: I think Mr. Takizaki or Mr. Horiuchi, Lucius' father, I don't know. I don't know what went on in the background.

TI: So when they talked to Paul about who you were, one of the things they said was, "She looked like Mona Lisa"?

BH: That impression, I guess. [Laughs]

TI: And they knew that would be a good description, because he was an artist and that would interest him.

BH: They said, "What do you think about him?" And I said, "Not bad." [Laughs]

TI: And what was it, when you say "not bad," what was it about him that...

BH: Well, like I think I could tolerate and live with somebody like that. [Laughs]

TI: So you saw his painting, you noticed that there was talent. What about his personality? How would you describe his personality?

BH: I thought he was very nice, and I remember he had nice curly hair. And his personality was good, and I thought, "What am I going to do? He speaks Japanese only." And I said, "How am I gonna converse with him?" At first it was just short words, but then I found out that he could speak a lot better than I thought. But he was fluent in Spanish since he had Mexicans working for him. So it wasn't bad. And he was telling me what kind of a place he had lived in, and it was just one of the railroad houses. It was a big, being the foreman, he had the biggest house, 'cause the rest were all bunkhouses. So that was kind of nice. So that was it, I guess.

TI: And so when he described Wyoming, living there, it sounded pretty good? Like a large bunkhouse or a large house...

BH: Yeah, I never thought about what kind of a place.

TI: And describe the dating process back then. I mean, so you met that first time...

BH: Then they asked me, "Do you think you could marry him?" or something, I guess. I said, "Well, maybe." He's gonna give me, I think we had a couple of dates, three dates or something. The more you got to know him, he was very different compared to a lot of the farmers that I'd met. Said, "What are you gonna do?" And I said, "Well, I don't think I mind marrying him." So we first got engaged in the first three months. And then he went back to Wyoming.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Well, one thing, if you were going to get married, since you were at Maryknoll, you're Catholic, and the Catholic church required people to be Catholic to get married.

BH: So we told him that, have to be Catholic, and so he says, "Well, I don't mind. I studied all about, all the painters were all, more or less Catholics, too, Europe." So he says, "I always admired the Catholics." So he said, "I don't mind taking instruction," so he took instruction daily, faithfully. Even when we went back to Wyoming, he still, there was a priest there that kind of told him all about the church and what's required and all that. So then we came back, well, he decided that he's gonna be Baptized.

TI: And is that when he took the name Paul or was it...

BH: No, he liked the name Paul.

TI: Oh, so even before he...

BH: Before, that he always, "What kind of name do you want?" He said, "Probably Paul."

TI: And do you know why he liked the name Paul?

BH: Because of all the artists. He respected them.

TI: And do you recall which artists? Cezanne?

BH: Cezanne.

TI: Paul Cezanne, okay. Oh, that's interesting. So he was okay with becoming a Catholic because many of the Renaissance painters or the European painters were Catholic. And prior to that, do you know if he practiced a religion?

BH: No.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So he, okay, so he studied, became a Catholic, and describe the wedding. Where did you get married?

BH: At Maryknoll. They had a Maryknoll church at that time. It was a very new church right there by Providence Hospital on Jefferson and Sixteenth, between Sixteenth and Seventeenth. So we were the very first Catholics to get married, Japanese Catholics. Somebody said they had another, first wedding was Filipino, but this was not a Filipino church, it was the Japanese church. So we were the very first ones.

TI: And so describe the wedding. How many people were there?

BH: Oh, gosh. Not too many. I didn't know that many people.

TI: And as a Catholic wedding, so it was a full mass that was performed?

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: It must have been special for them because you were a Maryknoll girl, you lived with them.

BH: Maryknoll parishioners all came. Very nice. And Paul's brother became his best man. [Laughs]

TI: And then did Mr. Takizaki sort of give you away?

BH: No, Mr. Rogers gave me away, since I was, didn't have any parents. So he said he'd volunteer to give me away. So it was very nice.

TI: That must have been a pretty happy time for you.

BH: Yes. And the Horiuchis, of course, came, and they said, Mrs. Horiuchi told me, she says, "A bride should never smile when you're..." 'cause a bride is supposed to be very shy or something. During the church service, we were walking back. You know, I was happy, so I was smiling away. And Mrs. Horiuchi says, "Don't smile." And Mrs. Rogers says, "Smile, smile." [Laughs] But I smiled anyway.

TI: So I'm curious, the not smiling part, was that a...

BH: That's Japanese custom, I guess.

TI: Oh, okay. And then Mrs. Rogers said, "Oh, this is America, so smile and show your happiness." And so you ended up smiling, you said.

BH: Oh, yes. My pictures shows it, our wedding picture.

TI: [Laughs] Oh, that's a good story. And so where did you go for your honeymoon?

BH: We went to Wyoming. [Laughs]

TI: So right away you would go to Wyoming?

BH: Uh-huh. Took the train. We had free passes, you know, because if you worked on the railroad.

TI: And so how long was the train ride from Seattle to Wyoming?

BH: It was quite long. It's a day and a half by the time you... night. I remember we had to, our first night was on the train, because we went to Wyoming and then I think we got to Nampa or someplace in Idaho, they changed. So I don't know, I can't quite remember, it was many years ago.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So you finally get to Wyoming. So where in Wyoming did you stop?

BH: The station, Green River. And I thought, "What a deserted town." [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you. So what did it look like when you got there?

BH: It looked like an old Western town.

TI: Did it surprise you when you got on?

BH: Yes. But then I didn't expect much anyway, because all on the way, there was nothing there.

TI: And then from Green River, how far did you have to go to get to Paul's home?

BH: House was, we were still west of where the station was. It was about, I don't know, he kept saying seven miles, but I don't think it was that far 'cause I could get down there in a car for a few minutes, ten, fifteen minutes. Must have been about three miles.

TI: And describe the house. What was that like?

BH: Barren, nothing there. Just the company house.

TI: And how many rooms did the...

BH: Oh, we had a kitchen and a big living room, and two small bedrooms, that's all. Then there was an upstairs, but we didn't use the upstairs.

TI: So it was a pretty big place.

BH: It's a big house. It's the biggest house in the section. The others were all bunkhouses.

TI: But you mentioned barren, so it's just like nothing on the walls?

BH: Nothing, nothing.

TI: I'm surprised. So his paintings, he didn't put paintings up on the walls?

BH: Well, he didn't put any paintings. There's no room, the windows were around, so there was no place to actually hang paintings.

TI: Even on the interior walls and things like that, there was no room?

BH: He had 'em all along the wall. [Laughs]

TI: And in that area, so it was mostly workers.

BH: Yeah, so we were the only, Paul was the foreman, so we had the biggest house and they had two, three bunkhouses. There were about three or four bachelors and two married families, that's all. So during the day, there's nobody there but us. The men all go to work, so just the women are left.

TI: And what would you do during the day?

BH: There was nothing to do, so we'd go around and visit the neighbors or something. And I was driving at the time, so I would go to Green River, the next town.

TI: So I need to ask, so here you were, coming from the city. You lived on the farm, so you kind of knew that life, but you lived in Seattle for several years...

BH: But it was nice. I don't mind.

TI: But you lived in these large homes on Capitol Hill and other places.

BH: Oh, yeah. It was a big difference.

TI: And then you'd go to Wyoming, and so how did you... you said it was okay for you?

BH: It was alright. Didn't have any furniture, but...

TI: So how about things like, oh, like indoor plumbing?

BH: No indoor plumbing, no water, no water and no electricity.

TI: So no electricity.

BH: No electricity.

TI: No running...

BH: No running water.

TI: ...water inside. So that was a big change.

BH: That was a big change. But earlier in Seattle or Bellevue, we didn't have water either. You had to get it from the well. But this was, the well was down on the railroad tracks, and we lived up on the hill, so we had to walk down and get the water. Every water that we used we had to go from the pump. The railroad would furnish the water, they'd come and pump the water into the cistern. In winter it would freeze.

TI: And then what would you do? Just bring chunks of ice?

BH: No, then we'd go, and somebody would go hit the top and kind of break up the ice.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: And so what are your fondest memories of living in Wyoming? What did you, when you think back...

BH: Well, it was nothing special, but it was nice. I didn't mind. Even now, I'd go back if I had a chance to live there. It's a really nice place.

TI: It's a simple life.

BH: Very simple, just like there were a lot of Okies coming in, like in the movie that you see. The people were all nice because Paul was the foreman so everybody respected us.

TI: And tell me... so I asked, you said you liked it, simple life. What about hardships? What was the hardest thing about Wyoming?

BH: Oh, that was kind of hard, the winter. The water was hard to get because it would freeze. And it had to be washed by hand, everything, take a bath in the tub. We had plenty of coal, the railroad furnished the coal, so we had a lot of, kept warm. Potbelly stove, the kids all grew up with that potbelly stove, too.

TI: Well, so eventually you had a son in Wyoming. And I'm trying to, wondering, how was it raising a son without running water, electricity, all the niceties that you'd expect?

BH: It was hard, but you get used to it.

TI: And so tell me, how, what year did you have your first child?

BH: '36? Yeah, '36.

TI: And so you were, what, twenty-three?

BH: Twenty-three.

TI: And you got married when you were eighteen, nineteen?

BH: I got married when I'm twenty-two.

TI: Twenty-two, okay. So right away you had children. Wyoming, and how many children did you have?

BH: Three. Three boys.

TI: And so --

BH: Two were born in Wyoming and one was in Seattle. So the second son...

TI: And so once you had your first son, then you're busy just taking care of...

BH: Oh, yes. And since I didn't have a mother, I didn't know what to do with a baby. [Laughs] But fortunately there was a Korean family that lived, had a farm. And so I got to know them, and she was a nurse at one time, so she came and showed me how to take care of the baby and this and that.

TI: That's interesting. So there was a Korean family?

BH: They were a family of, three families living together there had a farm.

TI: And do you know why, how they got to Wyoming?

BH: I have no idea about them.

TI: And it was interesting because the woman was a trained nurse?

BH: That's what I was told. She had, there was three families living together.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. That's the first time I heard of Koreans being in Wyoming.

BH: Kim and... person's name was Kim, and then there was a Chung. I can't remember who the other ones were. But anyway, there were three men, different families, they all lived together.

TI: And how did the Koreans and the Japanese get along in Wyoming given that...

BH: Fine. There was nothing like that going on at the time.

TI: So no resentment that the Japanese had occupied Korea or anything like that?

BH: So sometimes on my way between where we lived and Green River, the town, we had to go by it, sometimes I'd stop in and chat with them. Sometimes they would send you down to lunch, says, "Have some lunch with us." I was kind of hesitant at first, but they were more like Japanese except they had kimchee, that was the only difference. So every time I'd stop, get home, I'd smell like garlic. So Paul says, "Oh, you stopped at the Koreans' again." [Laughs]

TI: And so there was, did you ever talk about what was going on in Japan or Korea?

BH: No.

TI: And this family, do you know how long they had been in Wyoming? Were they --

BH: The Koreans?

TI: Yeah, the Koreans.

BH: I don't know. They were already there when I went.

TI: Were they immigrants or were they...

BH: I don't know. The girls seemed to be Niseis, but the men, I think they were from Korea.

TI: Oh, interesting.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So Bernadette, we're gonna now go into the second hour. And the first hour, we ended up talking about Wyoming and you're starting to raise children. And that kind of... and we were talking during the break in terms of when you were a kid. And so I wanted to go back and ask about a couple stories about, you mentioned about your father and mother. And the first one, there was a story about your father with a shotgun in the house. Can you tell me that story?

BH: When we were living... my father liked sports, too, so like on New Year's Eve, he would go out and shoot his gun like everybody else at the time.

TI: And describe, what kind of gun was this?

BH: I don't know. I think some kind of a pistol, that and a few other things we had, sword and things like that, we had to give it to the police department when the war broke out. I never did see it again. They still have it, I guess.

TI: But on, like New Year's, like at midnight or something, they'd go out there and shoot a gun?

BH: Uh-huh, yeah.

TI: So that would be like fireworks.

BH: He was very Americanized as far as things that...

TI: But I think you mentioned a story where he actually shot a gun inside the house?

BH: Oh, he was just showing off when he says, he got a new rifle or something, so he says, "But don't aim at anybody," he was teaching us, and all of a sudden he shot a big hole in the floor. And so he said, "How am I gonna cover that?" The broom handle was just the right size, so he stuck in there. So that was our... [laughs]

TI: [Laughs] So let me make sure I understand this. So he's, he's kind of trying to show you gun safety --

BH: Oh, yeah, he was kind of showing off, I think.

TI: -- and so he's doing that and it accidently goes off and shoots a big hole in the floor. And when that happened, his reaction was, "It's just the right size for a broom"?

BH: Yeah, it was. The hole was enough to have that broom handle fit in there.

TI: And when that happened, was he kind of, could you tell, was he frightened about what happened?

BH: No, I guess, I guess he was glad that he wasn't aiming at anybody or anything in particular. [Laughs] Another time he had a sword, and he was, I don't know what he was doing, he was showing off or something, and he was swinging it around, and he took a big chunk out of the wall, doorframe.

TI: I'm curious, you mentioned your mother earlier as being quiet. When your father would do something like that, what was her reaction?

BH: I don't know.

TI: Did you ever see her get angry at your father?

BH: Uh-uh. No, she was very shy. She wouldn't say anything.

TI: So even though he shot a hole in the wall or in the floor --

BH: Maybe they did, but I didn't hear it. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: What about, another story that you mentioned about your mother and father was that your father occasionally liked to drink alcohol?

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And this is during Prohibition...

BH: Just wine, just regular rice wine, I guess.

TI: And so during Prohibition, how did your father...

BH: We had one, but I don't know how they got it -- I don't think anybody came to check or anything like that. But my mother used to make it, and I said, "Why do you make it?" 'Cause my father would kind of get wild and rant and rave and all that. So I said, "Why do you make it?" And she says, "If I don't make it here, he'll go someplace else and do the same thing." So she says, "Might as well have it here," so she used to make it. [Laughs]

TI: And so she would make, you said it, was it rice wine?

BH: Rice wine.

TI: Okay, so sake.

BH: Yeah. And the sheriff and everybody in Bellevue used to like it, too, so they come over once in a while. [Laughs]

TI: So they'd come by and try -- [coughs] excuse me -- sake. Another story you mentioned over the break was we're talking about food and bread. And so in Bellevue, you lived right now close to Bell Square. Where was the bakery? Where did you go...

BH: It's still there, that kind of a high rise there. You had to go up some steps, it was level with the street, but you had to climb a little bit, I remember. So I think even now, I think you can see it's raised a little bit higher than other places.

TI: So you mean the bakery, where the bakery was?

BH: Uh-huh, yeah.

TI: And so where was this located?

BH: Well, it's right in the middle of there, someplace.

TI: No, but in terms of what street, the bakery?

BH: Oh, it would be directly across from... I don't know what's across the street now. But I think the furniture, fine furniture and things.

TI: So this is down in the old time, like Main Street.

BH: Yeah, Main Street, uh-huh.

TI: So it's a healthy walk. So when you'd go down to the bakery and get this, you'd have to walk back five or six blocks to get back home.

BH: We were kids, so you know, we didn't mind it.

TI: So describe to me what happened to the bread between the bakery and your house.

BH: [Laughs] So my mother, you know, we were very poor, and I think she must have -- I don't know how much the bread was, maybe five cents or something. So we'd go down and we bought the bread, but it was just in the process of baking or something, you could smell that, my brother and I. And it was warm. So he and I started taking a piece of that crust off of the end of the bread. And then we kept digging until it was almost hollow, just the outside. [Laughs] When we got home, boy, we got it. My mother got so angry with us. [Laughs] She was chasing us around with a broom handle. [Laughs]

TI: Because what you brought back was just a hollow...

BH: Hollow. So we had to go back down and get another loaf that was for our sandwiches for school. That's about the only time that I remember them getting angry at us. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, that's a good story.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: Okay, and there was one other thing that I didn't ask you about. When your father first came to the United States, my understanding was he came as a, thinking he'd be a student. Can you describe what he wanted to go into or what he wanted to study?

BH: I have no idea about those days.

TI: But then I think I read someplace where he was planning to go to law school?

BH: He was, he had a Stanford, I think it was supposed to be, going, and I think the uncle was supposed to be enough money to stand him to school at Stanford, and so he was depending on that to go to Stanford. But in the meantime, I guess, after that, when he couldn't go to school, that's when he started getting, going all over, ranch, looking for work.

TI: But that, I think, is kind of an indication that your father must have shown a lot of promise in terms of academic ability.

BH: He was very, even in the village, he was very, one of the top. That's why he went to, after grade school, I guess how they do it in Japan, I don't know, but there was a little ways from home, that he was supposed to go to a school special school for English and all that. But of course he came to this country, so he didn't go anymore. But his wealthy uncle was gonna send him over. He said, "I'll furnish all the expense," he says, "so go." But his uncle had a fishing, I think, that goes out to get the fish, big deal. I guess he had lots of people working for him. And so he was making good money, I guess. So he's the one that was going to furnish this. But they had a big storm and the whole boat sank, so he had no income. That's why he had to go scrounging around looking for jobs.

TI: It's amazing how things work out one way or the other.

BH: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So let's go back to Wyoming. So where we left you off at Wyoming was in the, I think, in the later '30s. At that point you had two boys, you had Paul, your oldest, and then two years later John came along. So what was it like raising two boys in Wyoming in the late '90s?

BH: It was nice because it was free. But only thing I had to watch them is that they don't get into the cactus too much, because they had that bug. So every night, after they play, we'd have to undress them and check everything to see if they had the... what was it called now?

TI: Was it like little ticks or something?

BH: Yeah, ticks. And so to see if they had ticks in their hair or someplace, we had to check them every night to see that they didn't have any ticks. So fortunately, they didn't catch any.

TI: And so during this time, did your, was your husband painting during this time?

BH: Oh, yes. He was painting every time when he was at home, he was painting.

TI: And describe that. Did he have like a separate room, like a studio?

BH: No, it was right in the front room. It only had one big room.

TI: And where would he get his art supplies?

BH: We had a little store in... oh then of course occasionally he'd come to, he used to go to Seattle and get some at the art store. But they had a little store in Rock Springs where we ended up living, which is a big, another big city there. And they had a place, I think it was... I can't even tell what kind of a store it was. Stationery and things like that. So we used to go there and pick out his canvas. And he of course got the cotton one, which was the cheapest one to get, so he could buy one yard of that and then paint on that. And then one time when his birthday was coming or something, I decided I'm going to buy him some linen canvas, 'cause he used to talk about the linen canvas, how good it was. So I went and bought him a yard of the thing and gave it to him, and he was so surprised and shocked because I bought him a linen canvas. And he says, "This is so good, I can't paint on it." So he carried it for a long time without painting anything on it.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. And so when your husband, Paul, spent all this time painting, what did you think when you watched him?

BH: Well, I just watched him and I did my own thing. Of course, no electricity, so there's not much we can do, just listen to the radio and do whatever, like patching clothes and washing, everything was done by hand, had to wash clothes by hand, hand wash it like this. And being a railroad man, his clothes would get real greasy and dirty. Had to wash that, overalls. [Laughs] And, of course, we had severe winters, though. They wouldn't dry, so we'd have to hang it up next to the stove to get it all dry.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: I'm thinking about kind of like the nights when he's painting, did you ever play your violin?

BH: I did a little bit, not too much.

TI: And how about just singing? Did the two of you ever sing?

BH: He used to sing. [Laughs] Japanese kind of songs.

TI: And describe...

BH: Oh, he was an actor, too, in Wyoming. And so he and his brothers put together a show, 'cause they had a Japanese school there. There were quite a few Japanese, but they were all Nisei kids being born, and they don't know anything about Japan or Japanese things. So we had to teach them how, so they don't lose that. They had us, a "tip school," I guess you'd call it. [Laughs] So they'd do quite a bit, and then we'd raise money and they built a little place where they can teach. They said they had some good teachers coming from Japan to teach them. Then they said to keep running that school they needed some money, so they said, "Let's up a show of some kind." So Paul was the instigator, I guess, he and his brother. So they asked everybody to donate some money to buy the costumes -- not buy the costumes, they had to make everything. So they got all the women to make all the costumes, and he wrote the scenario, he was the main star in it, of course. [Laughs] They did real good, and he was real good. Sometime at night when he's feeling good, he'd blast out singing all these Japanese songs. And I used to sit there and laugh because to me, it was comical. Especially those... what do you call that? Men, when they sing by themselves, I don't know what they call it. And he'd blast out singing something, and I wouldn't understand, and he'd make all these faces when he's singing. And I'd be... [covers face with hands] so he says, "Oh, she understands all this." Here I was, he thought I was crying, and instead I was laughing to myself. [Laughs]

TI: And where would he get the training to write a play and perform?

BH: He was very talented that way. He used to read a lot. He used to read everything.

TI: But from books he could read this and then figure out how to do this?

BH: I guess when he was younger, before he came, he was fifteen... he was fifteen when he came, so up 'til that, he used to read a lot. His grandfather used to be very strict. And he learned it all from his grandfather.

TI: So I'm curious, the plays that he did, was the style kabuki or kyougen?

BH: Oh, yeah, more like kabuki, I guess. So he wrote the story and he picked everybody to be so-and-so, and some women, we had a couple that ran a fish store, Japanese grocery store, they had a little, about two or three cans of everything. And they used to get together and make, she was a heavy-set woman. And he did the makeup, so he made this woman into an old, ugly man or something. [Laughs] And she was nursing the baby, and so when she tried to nurse him, she wouldn't go to him because... he had a lot of humorous stories about things like that. But he directed the shibai.

TI: And then so as a play, how popular was the play?

BH: It was quite popular. I guess at one time, Salt Lake, they asked them to come to Salt Lake to do a performance. And, of course, they can't go, they're all working, they can't take the time out to do it. And people from Denver wanted something, but they never did go out of Rock Springs, but it was quite famous, I guess. That was before I met him, so I don't know what went on.

TI: So all this, I'm sorry, you said before you met him?

BH: This was, yeah, before I met him.

TI: Oh, so this was before he had children.

BH: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. He was still a bachelor.

TI: Okay, so he had a lot more time and energy.

BH: Of course, his parents were living at the time, too, and the father died of cancer. So he knew his father only one year when he came, 'cause he was a baby when he left. For one year's old, he knew his father, then he got sick. So I never met him either.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: And so you mentioned that they, it was a fundraiser for a Japanese school. How large was the Japanese community?

BH: I don't know. They said people from all over came. People from Salt Lake came, people from Denver came. Because the train ride was free because they worked for the railroad, so they all came. They were very successful, so they wanted to repeat the same thing in Salt Lake. They said, "We can't afford to take the time off." [Laughs]

TI: But I'm curious, in Rock Springs, for people who attended the Japanese school, how large was the Japanese community in Rock Springs?

BH: I don't know. There were a lot of Niseis being born at the time.

TI: And so would you say more than twenty families?

BH: Probably something like that, maybe not even that many.

TI: And were there ever any community events like picnics or anything?

BH: Yeah, there used to be annual picnics once a year.

TI: And so describe that. What was that like?

BH: I didn't go then, 'cause that was before my time. Yeah, a lot of things happened before.

TI: Before. And so after you got there and had children, did you have any connection with the Japanese community?

BH: Not very often, because we were all a distance away from each other.

TI: And so things like... so what about religion? Did you go to church?

BH: Paul did. He went every time until the kids were born and had to stay home and watch the kids while I went.

TI: So you went to church, and then he would watch the kids.

BH: Uh-huh. Rain or snow, sleet.

TI: And how far did you have to go to church?

BH: Must have been about three miles, something like that. The highways over there were very slick, and there's not barrier, so if it snows, you can't tell where the road is. So they had a little elm or something, they said it was elm, pointed every so many feet so that you could tell that's the edge of the highway.

TI: And it's hard to imagine, having grown up in Seattle, when you see it snow in Seattle, that's just a little bit compared to...

BH: Oh, yeah, we got up one morning and one side of the house was all covered, can't see out the window, and this side is clear. They have...

TI: The big snowdrifts.

BH: Yeah, uh-huh. The ground would be dry in some spots, and all the snow on one side.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: So after you had two boys, then pretty soon the war started.

BH: Oh, yes.

TI: Why don't you describe what you heard, or how you heard about...

BH: Well, Paul used to read the newspaper, and he knew all this, but he didn't tell me about, too much about what's going on. He said we had trouble with China or something at one time, and this and that, but that's about all.

TI: So he was reading Japanese newspapers?

BH: That's all the Salt Lake people used to get. No Japanese anything on the radio.

TI: And so how did you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

BH: Well, he used to read about those things, and then they'd start talking on the radio, battery radio, hear about this, and then it was getting kind of bad. He'd tell us, "There might be a war."

TI: So when December 7, 1941, came, did you hear about the war on that day?

BH: We heard about it on the radio before that, that's before somebody warned us. So that Sunday morning, Paul was looking out the window, there was a railroad boss that was in charge of the railway around there, we saw his car parked outside and he was sitting in there. So we said, "What's going on?" So Paul went out there, then he came back and he says, "There's war in Japan." And that's the first time we heard. And then after that, everybody was nervous, we didn't know what was going to happen to us. But that was about December, and then April -- oh, they still kept on working on the railroad 'til Lincoln's birthday. And so they thought, well, they were safe, and so it was okay. Then that's what we thought, then all of a sudden, I don't know when it was that all the Japanese foremen... see, Japanese foreman was in every section. And all the boys that worked 'em, anyway, I don't know what they were, Caucasian people, but they mostly came from Oklahoma and Arkansas and places like that. Just like in that story about, John Steinbeck's. All the cars came west and they could see that there were cars that were all piled up with stuff, just like in the story. And, of course, the Japanese were all foremen.

TI: And so because the Japanese were foremen, then they were over these other Caucasian workers. Was there resentment?

BH: Mexicans, yeah.

TI: Was there resentment towards the Japanese?

BH: Oh, yeah. After that, everybody in the whole town, there were some places they wouldn't sell us groceries. But there was one, in Green River, there was one, it was Piggly-Wiggly I guess they called it, they had a supermarket. So they felt sorry for us and they says, "Well, anytime you need groceries, just come and charge it to us." So they were very nice. So the majority of the stores were very nice, except in the drugstore. We had a drugstore across the, right in the little village of Green River. Paul tried, Paul wanted them to learn to speak Japanese, so he'd talk. So they did say a few things in Japanese, and Paul would come in the store with us, and he starts asking in Japanese what this is and this and that. So we said, "Shh, don't talk Japanese anymore." So that was the last. We never let him talk Japanese after that.

TI: So your oldest son was learning Japanese, but after the war broke out...

BH: Yeah, no more.

TI: ...you told him not to speak Japanese anymore. And so you mentioned the Piggly-Wiggly, so they were kind, but there were other people that weren't so kind?

BH: Oh, yeah. There were a lot of people that wouldn't even sell it to us. One day we just bought a whole... 'cause we were gonna be, can't go too many places, so we went to Safeway, I think it was, and they used to, Paul used to get his railroad check, you know, his wages. So we took the check and went to Safeway store in Rock Springs, which is the next town, which is a bigger town. And we bought a whole top, the carriage thing was full of stuff that we need, like canned milk and can of everything. And when we went to pay, they said, "Sorry, but we can't take your check." I said, "Well, that's the only thing I've got." And he said, "Well, still, we can't take it." So we couldn't buy any groceries. So we just said, "Okay," then we just went out and left all the groceries there all piled up. [Laughs]

TI: And this happened after December 7th?

BH: Oh, yeah.

TI: Okay, so even though it was a good check, it was a railroad check, they wouldn't take it.

BH: No, they wouldn't take it.

TI: Because you were Japanese.

BH: Uh-huh. So that went on for a long time. Then they used to give us compensation check, Omaha, I guess, the headquarters for the railroad. So they sent for all the people, I think it was thirty dollars or something like that, which was supposed to be used for groceries.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So let me make sure I understand this. So after Lincoln's birthday, they fired all the Japanese railroad workers.

BH: Yeah, they said, "Leave the premises, Union Pacific premises within," I think it was forty-eight hours. So we had to evacuate. And so all our stuff, Paul's paintings and all, everything he couldn't carry, that we could just put in our car, we just put it in there. We used to have a small car at the time. So we put everything in it, what we could, everything. Paul built a bonfire and we took everything, old paintings, everything in there. All our, whatever we couldn't, didn't need to have, we just took it out there and made a big bonfire. His old paintings that he loved, but we couldn't do anything with it, we couldn't carry it anyplace. So we just burned everything. Clothes, and anything that's written in Japanese, we just burned it.

TI: Do you recall Paul saying anything when he had to burn all that?

BH: Well, there was nothing he could say. Like the Japanese expression was shikata ga nai.

TI: So what do you do? So you're kicked out of your house, forty-eight hours' notice, you're out of a job.

BH: Out of a job.

TI: So where did you go?

BH: So we went to, there was a little cabin for tourists, two little, two houses down there, between where we lived and Green River. So we rented one room, twelve-by-twelve, four of us lived in there for a month or so. And then we couldn't stay there forever, so his older brother was in Rock Springs already, so he started looking around. And he found someplace, and it was an old shack on the road going to another coal mining town. And so a black family lived there, they had about eight children, and they had an old house that... it wasn't even a house, it was a chicken coop at one time. And so couldn't help it, we had to rent that place. I think, I don't even remember how much we paid, eight dollars or something. And it was really a shack. So we lived there for, must be ten months, maybe fifteen, sixteen months, I don't know exactly.

TI: So what would you live off of? Because Paul wasn't working?

BH: Yeah, we got that compensation check, so thirty dollars.

TI: And that was thirty dollars --

BH: That's all.

TI: -- a month?

BH: That was...

TI: Or a one-time payment?

BH: I think it was a month.

TI: And so you were living on, essentially, thirty dollars a month.

BH: Uh-huh. Of course, we had a little savings, too, by that time. But we didn't want to use that if we can help it.

TI: And so what would the two of you do during the day? When Paul's not working, what would you do?

BH: He would paint or do something. But we had to leave the house, so we had to find this place. And we had no place to put anything. But somehow, Paul always loved to paint, so he'd save his brush and paint.

TI: What would Paul paint during this time? What kind of...

BH: He did a couple of portraits of me and some of the kids. When our second son that died, when he was just born, he was only about nine days old, he painted him while I was holding him. But he still painted.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: So for you, it must have been pretty difficult trying to care for two young boys during this time, living in these small shacks and things. How did the boys react to...

BH: It didn't bother them.

TI: So they would just play and do their own thing?

BH: They would just play, uh-huh. And the second one, he just doesn't stay still, so I used to have to tie him, a rope around his... and tie him to the telephone pole so he couldn't wander off, 'cause I couldn't do anything all day if I had to watch him.

TI: So your second one, John, was...

BH: Yes, he was a mischievous one. He was always into trouble.

TI: So you got to the point where you just tied a rope around him so he wouldn't wander away?

BH: Yeah, when I'm doing the washing or doing something when I can't keep my eye on him, I had tied him. At night when his father came home, he'd start running. And of course, end of the rope, and he'd fall. [Laughs] But they thought I was cruel to tie him up, but I said I couldn't do anything else. There was no law in those days. [Laughs]

TI: And so that was John, the second one. What was Paul like?

BH: He was quiet.

TI: And what kind of games would the two boys play?

BH: Nothing. They'd just wander around outside and whatever. There's nothing that they could do except play, between the two of them would play, or then the neighbor's kids would play and join them. There was nothing much going on.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: You know, I'm thinking about your, we've been talking about your life for the last hour and a half, and you've had lots of various hardships. Were these war years pretty hard for you?

BH: Well, it was pretty hard.

TI: Like harder than anything you'd lived through before?

BH: Oh, yes. And I remember my, Paul and his brother used to, you know, jobs were hard to get, but they managed to find... because my brother-in-law lived there for a long time, so people knew him. So through him, Paul was able to work together. So both of them worked together all the time, no matter where they went. They even went to, they got hired by the railroad. Not railroad, coal mine. So they wanted to go to the coal mine to earn some money. So they had another family of Japanese that he said he had to, he was the first one to be called. So he answered the thing and he went, went in the mine. And that's when all the miners got real, you know how they were, they were mad at him anyway, at all the Japanese. So they started to swing their axe towards this man. And so he, I think he said they were about a mile or so inside the mine, so he ran out of the place. And Paul's shift was the next one, so he came over and he says, "Oh, I almost got killed," he says. "I don't want go to back in that place again." Before that, the miners, when they were told to come to work, why, they all went to the mining store and they bought all the equipment, the lamp on their head and all their gear. And so Paul was so happy, he was just like a kid, he tried that on, you know. He had to return everything. So he said, "Don't go down there, you're going to get killed," so that was the end of our, their coal mining experience.

TI: Oh, so never got a chance to do it? Where was the coal mine located?

BH: Right in Rock Springs where we lived.

TI: So it was Rock Springs.

BH: Uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: So after, some months after the war, the government started rounding up Japanese and Japanese Americans on the West Coast and putting them in camps.

BH: Uh-huh. Well, they didn't do that to us.

TI: Right. But yet Paul's, some of Paul's family that lived in Seattle were put into camps.

BH: Oh, yeah.

TI: So you had heard about this. And so what were you thinking when this was happening?

BH: Oh, well, we didn't know. We thought we were just like gypsies and just travel around looking for work, but that didn't happen to us. We were lucky. People in Rock Springs were very nice, people that, the regular people that we used to associate with, they were very nice. But some of the people that came in from the east like Arkansas and Kansas, and they already had a house, because Rock Springs was booming at the time. It grew from twenty thousand to forty thousand during the war or something like that. It just increased.

TI: And why was that? What was happening in Rock Springs that made it so...

BH: The coal mining.

TI: Oh, so the country needed coal, so it was...

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: But then unfortunately, Japanese couldn't work there because of the...

BH: No, like I say, they got hired, but they didn't work anymore after that, when they said they'd get killed, especially under the mine where nobody would know them.

TI: But going back to the West Coast Japanese going to camps, did you and Paul ever talk about that in terms of what was happening?

BH: Oh, they were lucky, at least they have a place to go. 'Cause we found out how nice it was, meal was served and they just go and didn't have to do any work. So we felt kind of envious. But we visited the other Horiuchis' parents, was in Minidoka, so we went to visit them once. And we took our car and went from Wyoming to, no, we lived in Salt Lake -- not Salt Lake, Ogden, Utah, at that time. We drove to Minidoka. And went in, I says, "Gosh, how nice," but they had a tower there where the guards were there watching everybody. So we were afraid about leaving the car and going to the thing, and they said, "Oh, no, you can take the car in." This was quite some time later. So we drove the car, and people were so happy to see us with a car, and nobody else had a car there because they couldn't own one. But it was scary to be there because of the police.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: But yet when you first heard about the camps and saw them, you said you were envious.

BH: We were envious 'cause they had a place to sleep, even if it was only a barrack. But at least they had a place to go. So when we went from Rock Springs to Ogden to live, because they said they had jobs there. So Paul went to work in some kind of electric trolley, I think they called it. It's one of those big ones, not just the city one, but big one. So he got a job right away. He got put to work and he didn't know anything about those railroad electric cars. But the foreman told Paul, he says, "Put this wire together," and then it'll start running. So match the color or the wires or something like that. And so he was making good money, and they liked him and they liked his work. And so they were doing pretty well until one of the foremen of the railroad or somebody came, young kid came along. And he was more or less talking to himself and he said, "I wonder what would happen if I put the trolley up." And at that time, they were working on the thing and they got electric shock. And Paul came home all green and I said, "What happened?" He says, "We only got electrocuted almost."

TI: Because this young kid did something wrong and then he almost...

BH: Yeah, he put the trolley up when he wasn't supposed to.

TI: And he almost electrocuted... did he die?

BH: No, he was all right.

TI: He just got shocked.

BH: Yeah. He was the one, he just wanted to put that trolley up. I think there were two or three men under the railroad, the trolley, working on the wires or something. And they were the ones that got shocked. They said there were three or four of 'em, so he said it wasn't too bad. I think it divides or something, the power. If he had been alone, he probably would have been killed.

TI: And so Paul was frightened.

BH: Oh, yeah, he came home all green. He said, "That's the end of it." So he quit that railroad.

TI: Going back to Minidoka, so how long did you stay there?

BH: Just overnight or a couple of days. We were so envious, went to the dining hall, and they had big table with milk. [Laughs] They were so envious because they had all that milk to drink and they didn't have much. [Referring to children]

TI: And yet you said also that when you went there, though, it was a little scary because of the guard towers.

BH: Yeah, uh-huh. But once you're in there, they said, "That's okay." People were just running around, running around. And seemed like there were all the kids running around. It seemed like it was a nice place. So we wondered if, "You could take us," and they said no. They were already trying to take people out by that time. This was quite a while later. Said, "Oh, we're trying to take the people out now, not putting them in."

TI: And when you were visiting, I was curious because when I interviewed Lucius Horiuchi, he showed me an, I think it was an oil painting of inside Minidoka with a water tower and I think it was Lucius and his sister walking there. So it was something that he said that your husband painted when he was at Minidoka.

BH: No, I don't remember that.

TI: So it's in Lucius's bedroom, it's a painting from Minidoka.

BH: Probably took, made a sketch. He used to do a lot of sketching at that time, and then he'd later make it into an oil...

TI: Oh, so maybe that's what happened.

BH: Yeah, maybe that was what...

TI: He sketched it. And so any other memories from the wartime that you can think about? Because you were in Ogden, then after Ogden, where did you go?

BH: Ogden was pretty nice. He got a job, he did several jobs. He was a gardener, helped, he used to go around, there were a crew of them, I guess, and he was one of those. And he'd help, it was long work, and the owner was a banker in Ogden. So they said they wanted somebody to come to their house. They had a house, Japanese housekeeper already, couple, so they wanted us to go there and do the laundry or something. So I used to go do the laundry, and the kids would play out on the lawn 'cause it was a real nice lawn. And I guess it was twenty-five cents an hour. But even that much helped. [Laughs] And so they said, if anything had to do with water, like washing or something, they gave thirty-five cents an hour. And so after the work was all done, the kids, we'd go home.

TI: Well, it's interesting just listening to you, all the things that you did just to help out or to make things work for the family. It's amazing.

BH: But imagine being, twenty-five cents an hour for working. [Laughs] They had a swimming pool someplace, and so they used to have a whole bunch of people come and use their pool. And so then they'd have millions of towels. That's what I was there for, mostly, to wash them. And they didn't have any dryer in those days that I can recall. So we used to hang 'em on a clothesline. And when they get dry I have to fold 'em and put 'em away.

TI: And that was for twenty-five cents an hour?

BH: Twenty-five cents an hour. But to us, that was quite a bit at that time.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: So eventually the war ended, and then what happened next?

BH: We were in Spokane by that time. Well, he was getting kind of tired of that same kind of work every day, and a lot of the Seattle people had, went to Spokane to work, and they said, "There's lots of jobs here." So that's when we decided to go to Spokane.

TI: And what did you do in Spokane?

BH: Oh, that job... what did they do first? I forgot what he did the very first... but anyway, he worked into a -- oh, I know, he was following Roy Sakamoto. He had a, he was already there working, so he says, "Come to Spokane, there's lots of jobs. I think he went to join them doing, I think he had a contract to do all the taxicabs or something, so Paul joined them, and he worked there, and he was doing real good. But then he said, "I can't do this all the rest of my life." And we heard that people were really going back to Seattle so he stayed there about two years, I think.

TI: So as you were making your way back to Seattle, was it, had he pretty much decided he would never go back to the railroads?

BH: Oh, yeah. He had enough of the railroad. That's heavy work, lifting those rails. They're not very, they're not like rails that you see around here. They're about that high, and so the kids used to have to crawl over. They had to crawl over, they couldn't just step over. And that's what worried me most about the railroad. That's why I had to tie John up. [Laughs]

TI: And so you make your way back to Seattle. And for you, how had Seattle changed? I mean, it's been a while.

BH: Oh, it's so nice to get back to. Didn't see any change. [Laughs] Except that there were signs all over some places, "No Japs Allowed," or this and that. So we couldn't go into, on the highway, we couldn't stop to get any groceries or anything to eat. So we were, we sent the kids to go. Maybe they won't harm the kids, so he and John used to go and get whatever we wanted, like popcorn or pop or whatever.

TI: So during the war years or right after, you lived or visited lots of different places. Ogden, Spokane...

BH: That's the only place. Spokane was our last place.

TI: Okay. But then how would -- and then as you got to Seattle, it sounded like there was more, kind of, discrimination against Japanese, or was it about the same?

BH: We didn't feel that like we did in Wyoming.

TI: So Wyoming was worse?

BH: After the war.

TI: That's what I was trying to get a sense is...

BH: People from eastern part come from Omaha and Kansas. All the Kansas people came, and they were not very refined, the way they talk. It was pretty bad. Then they'd join the other people and say, "No Japs allowed," things like that to us.

TI: And so how did you and Paul feel about that? I mean, here, in some ways, you were well-educated. And when people, who perhaps didn't have as much education would say those things, I mean, how did you guys deal with that?

BH: It was hard because the language was different from ours, the way they talked.

<Begin Segment 29>

TI: So in Seattle, what did you and Paul do in Seattle?

BH: Oh, we found an old house that was for rent, but it was on Alder Street near where the youth center is now. And the house was an old house, and dirty. When they told us we could live here, we looked and the front room had nothing but tin cans, beer bottles, just terrible. So he and I think my brother took a scoop shovel and just shoved it out the door, made a place to live. The walls were so dirty that the kids would touch the walls. So up to so far where the kids can't reach, I washed the whole wall down. And very primitive. [Laughs] And they had only one bathroom upstairs, and it was filthy. Said, "We can't allow kids in that, to take a bath in that one," so we never used their bathroom. That's about all we did there, nothing else. Then I got pregnant with my third one, so I lived there for, we lived there until he was one, I guess. Because I didn't take him as a little baby. And Paul was working just down the street, we were on Alder and the body shop was on Fir. Was it Fir?

TI: And so Paul worked at a autobody shop?

BH: Yeah, and then he... I don't know how he, he went to help somebody. He said, this is a nice job that he could do, because he was good at matching paint. People would come in with, in those days, of course, everybody had old cars, nobody owned a new one. And so they wanted to make it new-looking. So he was able to match colors, so even if the car was, some of the car was old, but people, when they went to the body shop to get paint, of course, they used the paint that was off of the can. And so, of course, there was a big difference between the place where he painted from the old paint, and they didn't like that. And so Paul learned how to make colors to match the car. And so he mixed the paint up, trying to get it done. And he had a reputation of being able to match colors, so he used to get a lot of calls from people, body, fenders, wondering, "What did you use?" So he told them. But I don't know, that's about all, I guess.

TI: So his painting experience came in handy.

BH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: That he could mix or match paints.

BH: Uh-huh, if it's rusty looking he would mix it up, so make it look rusty.

TI: And during this time, was he still painting at night?

BH: Oh, yeah, at night, after he comes home from work, he was right at it. Even when it was railroad, the same thing. He'd come in, he'd come in the house, face was all dirty, grubby, his coveralls were dirty. But before he had a chance to do anything, he'd come running over to the painting that he started. It was on his mind all day, so he came and did that. So that's how much he was interested in painting.

TI: Now, when he came back to Seattle, there was more other painters, a community of painters.

BH: Tokitas and Nomura. There were a few others, I guess, but that was before my time, so I don't know. Nomura and Tokita was afterwards. But there were a lot of other Japanese painters that we know by name, but didn't meet them.

TI: And so when he came back, did he see more of them? Did he meet with them?

BH: Oh, yeah. He and Mr. Nomura and Tokita, they'd go out painting someplace, the three of 'em together, someplace to paint, inspired. So a lot of landscapes and things like that.

TI: And so about what year was this in Seattle, when you first started?

BH: It was... when was it?

TI: '46, '47?

BH: Before '47, because Vincent was born in '47. So must have been, well, '43, '44?

TI: Well, it had to be after the war, so probably after...

BH: '46? Something like that.

<Begin Segment 30>

TI: And so, let's see, he's doing the body shop for a couple years, and then I understand he had an accident.

BH: Oh, yes. When he was painting, and while painting, the car was getting, being dried or something, 'cause he had a lamp that dried the place. So next door was a Chinese laundry, and on the top, I don't know how high it was, over ten feet, I guess, and there was a sign. Mr. Nomura... no, who was it? Oh, yes. Kaz Shoji, he was a... what do you call it? He did things like that, I've forgotten exactly what his job was. But he was having a struggle because he was trying to put this big board up there, 'cause the Chinese laundry wanted a sign put up. So he was working on that, and then he got up on the top, I think it was an eight-foot ladder, so they says, "Well, lift it up a little bit," so he kept pushing. And the ladder turned and fell, so he fell with it and he broke his arm. It was a compound fracture on his left arm. So he was laid up for a whole year, couldn't do anything.

TI: So he couldn't work at the auto shop anymore?

BH: No, he couldn't work anymore.

TI: So how was the family supported during this time?

BH: That's when we were having problems. So I went looking for a job because I'd never worked in my life, so I didn't know... but Paul had to stay home because he couldn't work at all with his left hand bandaged. Not bandaged but...

TI: In a cast?

BH: Cast, yeah. So I went out looking for a job, and I went downtown looking, to all the employment office. And the first thing they would ask is, "Have you had any experience?" I said, "No experience." He said, "Well, then we can't use you." I remember I went to the telephone company, everyplace around there, and they said all the same thing: "No job." And so then there was, on Jones Building on Third and, across from the post office, there was a building, and they had a couple of Japanese girls working there. It was supposed to be called International... International something, I forgot. But anyway, they take orders for different kind of things, like flowers and... I don't know what the main thing was. But anyway, I had the typing experience, so they hired me five dollars a week. No, five dollars a day. So every Saturday, Friday night, I'd get my twenty-five dollar check. That's what we used, ate on. But it was so monotonous, you know, a printed form and then all the blank spaces I had to write, type whatever they were selling at the time. Did that every day, looking at the wall, blank wall all day long. And that was Third and Union.

TI: And so while you worked, then Paul took care of the boys?

BH: Well, they were old enough. But it was Vincent that was still a baby. But he was, I think, able to walk, toddler, so he used to take that twenty-five dollars a day and said, "Don't spend more than five dollars a day," because you had to pay the rent and all that. So he'd take Vincent by his hand, and they'd walk up two blocks or something to a grocery store where he'd buy a half a pound of hamburger and I don't know what, potatoes.

TI: And so this happened, so you were struggling --

BH: Yeah, by that time I was, I was working. Before that, I worked at the laundry next door where the sign was, where Paul was working, right next to the shop. I worked there, that was also five dollars a day. It was a Chinese laundry, and they did all the hotel work, sheets and things like that. And it was hard work because it was a big place where they had to do all the laundry. And the people, one of the, laundry, did all the bad work, I mean, dirty work. All we did was come in and put it in a big long ironer, I guess, mangle, and the sheets would be coming out, and we had to take that and shake it. It'd take two people to do that, one on the other end. I did that, it was hot, it was, we had to fold it in such a way, and the others were coming one after the other. So it was hard work. But for five dollars a day.

TI: So you would have to work really hard to, essentially, make a hundred dollars a month.

BH: Uh-huh, and no... it was all five dollars cash, you didn't have to declare anything. Of course, I guess they did it. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 31>

TI: So it was about this time that I think Paul realized that he could start selling his paintings. Tell that story. How did that come about?

BH: I don't know how he started. I think when they knew, he used to, people, we had a friend that used to drop by and he'd like the painting, so he'd take it. And their name was Spinola, and he was an insurance salesman at the time. So he said, "Can I take one of your paintings? And I'm going to show it to people, maybe they might be interested in buying it." And so it was little things, but he used to put it in a briefcase and he'd take it on and wherever he went, he'd show Paul's painting. And it got so he sold one. He sold one, he sold it and he thought, "Well, that's pretty good. I could making a living painting." [Laughs] So he did that for a while.

TI: And so this is about 1950 or so that he was able to start selling these.

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And so I'm curious. So you worked all month to raise a hundred dollars, or make a hundred dollars. How much was he able to sell his paintings for during this time?

BH: At that time I think it was like seventy-five dollars or something like that. And so when he got -- this Mr. Spinola sold a painting, sometime it was about, like over a hundred dollars or something. We did that for a while.

TI: And once he started doing that, did you continue to work?

BH: By that time, I never did find a job, but like I said, I worked at the laundry and then the Seafirst on Jackson, they were looking for somebody to work, so they said, "Why don't you go try?" And I said, "I don't want to work in a bank," that's a high-class job. I said, "I can't do anything like that, a country girl." [Laughs] But they said, "Go ahead and try," so I did. And they said, yeah, right away they hired me. So I started out from scratch. Then I worked there, I started in 1951, and I retired in, I quit when... I think you had to work 'til you're sixty-five or something nowadays to get pension.

TI: So in to the '70s then, '78 or so?

BH: I have no idea. Let's see, it must be. Because I worked there for quite a while.

TI: So it looked like about twenty-seven years?

BH: Yeah, something like that.

TI: Twenty-seven years, I think. And during this time, your husband just continued to paint and sell his paintings?

BH: Yeah. He stayed home and took care of the kids at the same time, make dinner.

TI: And describe the painter community that he...

BH: Oh, he used to go out with Mr. Nomura and Mr... [Laughs] My memory is really getting bad nowadays, I can't remember. I know the name and everything but I can't... Tokita. The three of 'em would get together and they'd go. And Paul had the car, so he took them and they'd go someplace and paint all day, come home with the sketches that they made.

TI: And during this time, was his style more landscape kind of...

BH: Yes, kind of, pencil sketching and things like that, yeah. I was surprised that he could make, just by pencil sketch he could make it into a painting, but he did that.

TI: And when the three of them were together, Tokita, Nomura, Horiuchi were all together, describe how they were with each other.

BH: They were very congenial, yeah.

TI: Did they ever sing together or stuff like that?

BH: I don't know. I think they must be talking about old times, what they went through, I guess. I don't know.

TI: Because you mentioned how Paul could sing and act...

BH: That was in Wyoming.

TI: But did he ever do that with his friends, and just kind of play around?

BH: No, no, he wouldn't anymore after that.

TI: So you mentioned Tokita, Nomura, the Japanese painters. How about the non-Japanese painters like Mark Tobey?

BH: Oh, yeah, he got acquainted. Then later on, after he started to open up a little shop, 'cause they said, "Why don't you open a little shop?" Was it 409 Pike Street? Got a little place to rent for I don't know how much, twenty-seven dollars or something like that, rent. And so he did that, of course, he didn't... had lots... other Mr. Horiuchi, Lucius's father, used to have lots of antiques. And so he, sometimes he said, "Why don't you sell this if you can?" So he had a little display, and people would come in once in a while and buy something. But it wasn't very good. [Laughs] He barely paid, made the rent, I think.

TI: But at some point, Paul started getting recognized as a painter?

BH: Yes. And they used to have an art fair in the Puyallup Fair, they used to do all that. He got some prizes there, sometimes first prize, sometimes honorable mentions and things like that. So that really encouraged him too... so that's when he started to become more serious. And then by that time, he was beginning to sell bigger things for bigger prices.

TI: And then I'm trying to think, with his style of paintings, it shifted at some point to more impressionist....

BH: He used to do that first, and then he found collage, which he found really interesting. And so then he, more or less, turned to collage. So that's when he started to sell, and then gallery. So he'd have a show once in a while, the galleries would be after him. Woodside used to sell, it was good, so he took in about... then he started painting some oils at that time, and they were bigger, not big as a big wall, but about 15 x 30 or something like that, or smaller, 15 x 20 maybe. So this was, he could make a living at painting, that's more up his line.

<Begin Segment 32>

TI: Well, and how did the mural at the Seattle Center, how did, that was done for the World's Fair?

BH: Uh-huh.

TI: And how was he selected to do that.

BH: There was a Mr. Norman Davis, who was a rich man here at the time, and he liked Paul. So he had something to do with the World's Fair, too, to the Center. So Paul was selected to do the mural. So Mr. Davis, Davies... Davis, I guess, so he said, well, then he started looking for tiles and he couldn't... there was one, I think, City Light building had a tile out in the front. So they went to look at it and he said he didn't get much for that. That got an idea, too, so he, Mr. Davis said, "Well, how about going to Venice?" He said, "Venice?" he says. But somehow or other, Mr. Davis says, "I'll go with you." He was a wealthy man, I think he was in some kind of liquor, I think, wine or something, I don't know what his line was. But anyway, he was very good to Paul. So he said, "I'll go with you," so he did, went to Venice. And got to meet the people that made all the glass, so he said it was very interesting. So that kept after him, so he says, "I'll maybe go over there and work for a while." So he was gone three months in Venice. And it was off-season mostly, in the winter months, he said, "Nobody there in Venice," he said, "it was so sad and lonesome." But he stayed there somehow or other.

TI: And he was there to kind of work on the mural?

BH: Mural, uh-huh. He went there to the glass, glass factory, yeah.

TI: And had the craftsmen there make the tiles and everything?

BH: Uh-huh, yeah. And so then he got it, so he got it all arranged, 'cause he took his own painting of what colors and stuff. So they left the, he left the painting there and they matched it up as far as they could. He liked black and dark colors better than the bright colors that he has up here. He didn't care much for that after it was all...

TI: Oh, so when the mural was finished, he didn't care for that?

BH: Not so much as he, like he wanted to do his own work, but he said Mr. Davis said, "Well, Seattle is such a dark city, wintertime, there's nothing there, so we need a little color." [Laughs] So he encouraged him to do it all in color. So after... that was in April, so from the time he left, they all worked on that thing until almost April, and then they said it was complete, so they were gonna ship it. So they sent fifty-two crates of all this, it came in little pieces, not pieces, but different forms. But there were fifty-four pieces, I guess, crates that they sent. And so then it was like a puzzle trying to put them the way... but somehow or other, they got it up.

TI: And when it was all done and they had the...

BH: The opening.

TI: ...the opening, what was that like?

BH: Oh, that was something. We didn't know why he had the black tarp all over it, so we didn't know what it looked like, except them, I guess. Paul must have seen it.

TI: Oh, so even you didn't get a chance to see it before?

BH: No.

TI: Okay, so describe the unveiling of it. What was that like?

BH: Oh, Mayor Clinton was the mayor at the time, and he was there and a few other city people there. And they said they want to take the screen off, so they wanted us to be there. So we went, and when they ripped it off, why, my goodness. It was so huge, it was hard to recognize that he did all that and they got it all into pieces together.

TI: And what was the reaction of the audience, the crowd when they opened it?

BH: I was so excited, I don't remember what they did, but they were all clapping and they thought it was beautiful.

TI: I'm guessing that must have been pretty exciting.

BH: It was.

TI: And do you, after that, do you oftentimes just go down there and look at the mural?

BH: Oh, yeah, Paul used to go down there quite often 'cause he wanted to see it after it's all up in different... and people would be standing in front, sometimes he'd miss it. [Laughs]

TI: And I'm guessing that really made him quite prominent.

BH: Uh-huh, but he didn't care much for that kind of work. But he did like, kept... so he did most of his work, got a studio and worked there.

TI: And so did your lives change after the mural?

BH: No, I don't think so.

TI: Pretty much the same? now, was he well compensated for the mural? Did he get paid quite a bit?

BH: I forgot how much they paid him. It wasn't very much. [Laughs] I have no idea what it was.

TI: It's such a famous landmark in Seattle.

BH: I guess it's just a little, slightly over a hundred thousand, I think it was.

TI: But still, for you, that was quite a bit of money.

BH: Oh, it was, all at once. [Laughs]

TI: But it's interesting, you said he didn't care for that kind of work. So he didn't pursue that...

BH: That was the last one.

TI: And so describe the work he did like to do. What did he do?

BH: Oh, he wanted to do his own work in his own studio.

<Begin Segment 33>

TI: Now, how did your life change as Paul became more and more famous for his work?

BH: I was working, so most of the time I didn't know. He stayed home every day and he built a, we built a house finally, and so he had a big studio that he... whole basement was a studio almost. And he painted there all day long. And so when people wanted to buy, why, all these ladies would come. I was working already, and they'd come and they'd buy the painting. And I wonder what the neighbors must have thought. Here he's all alone and all these ladies coming in every day, walking out with a big package. [Laughs]

TI: And during this time, as he sold his paintings, you continued to work at Seafirst.

BH: Oh, I worked there even after. I retired, I think, when I became sixty-two, when a woman can retire. Men can... sixty five or something, I forgot now.

TI: And why did you continue to work?

BH: Well, I was working 'cause I enjoyed it. And the kids were big now, so I didn't have to stay at home all the time. And Paul would be at home painting, and sometimes he'd cook dinner and things like that, and work on the yard. But he liked it. So I'd come home and sometimes I'd see all the windows and the doors all open, and I'd say, "What's going on up here?" He comes up to warm up something that he was gonna have for lunch, he'd forget, he puts it on the... goes downstairs. Says, "I'll be gone a few minutes," so he'd go down. Of course it burns, and I don't know how many stoves we went through. [Laughs] He burned all the elements. It's a wonder we didn't have a fire in the house.

TI: And so how did your life change after you retired? What was your life like?

BH: Oh, easy after that. We did what we want, go places we want. So Paul went to see his mother for the first time when he was... he came when he was fifteen, so he didn't see his mother for a long time. So I think the first trip he went was... let's see, we went together in... I think I went in '58, Paul went when he was, when he became, '60. I think it was something like that. I was still working at the bank, so I didn't go with him, and I still had kids at home. So Paul went by himself to visit his mother after thirty years. He had two sisters and a brother over there. He was gone, he said, "I'll be gone maybe a month or so." Well, he went and he wouldn't come back for three months. He said he liked reliving his old place and all his friends there, his schoolmates were there. Anyway, he had to come home for so many days, otherwise he couldn't come back in again, so he came home. And then the following year, he talked about Japan so much that I said, "Gosh, I'd like to see that Japan." So 1960 I went by myself, because he had to watch the kids then by that time. And I enjoyed it very much, met all my in-laws, Paul's mother was still living then, and his two sisters and a brother, but they were, three of them were born in Wyoming, and they were, after the father died, why, they had to go back to Japan. So the mother and the three kids all went to Japan. So that's the first time I saw all my relatives here, in-laws.

TI: That's a good story.

<Begin Segment 34>

TI: Okay, so for this last part, I wanted to reflect a little bit more about your husband's connection with the other artists in Seattle. So can you tell me about some of the other artists? So this is after the war, he's back in Seattle. Who were some of the other people that he...

BH: Just, seemed to be just Nomura and Tokita and Tobey is about all.

TI: Right. What about George Tsutakawa?

BH: Oh, yeah, and George.

TI: George, and then there was a Namkung?

BH: Namkung, yeah.

TI: Nam...

BH: Namkung. Just because he was a friend of George, I guess, that we got to know them.

TI: And they were, they all were kind of different artists, too. Like George was a sculptor, and then Namkung was a photographer.

BH: Tokita, Nomura and Paul was about the, they did about the same kind of work. Sometimes you can't tell which was which, because they were similar.

TI: And so would Paul be able to recognized good art right away when he would see, like, photography or a sculpture?

BH: Yeah.

TI: He would see that also?

BH: He was very good at recognizing all those people. "Oh, so and so must be this."

TI: And so as your husband became more well-known, did a lot of younger artists come to visit him, too?

BH: Oh, yeah. Frank Okada used to come around. I don't know, not too many. There were a lot of Caucasian young men who would come around sometimes.

TI: Earlier you mentioned also there seemed to be a special relationship with Mark Tobey.

BH: Oh, Tobey used to love Paul and antiques. So they used to go to, Mr. Takizaki had a little antique shop by the Beacon Hill, on that, right off the bridge. And they used to go visit all the time, and he used to love Japanese ceramics, Tobey. And so we got to be real good friends. So that's how we got to know Tobey.

TI: And so describe how maybe you and Paul... what's the right word? Introduced Mark Tobey to more Japanese, like, foods or...

BH: Oh, he liked it before we even met him. That's why he'd go to Maneki, I guess, all the time.

TI: And so he would go there with Paul?

BH: This was before, and they used to go, and then they'd go together.

TI: And I'm curious, did the Japanese community recognize or understand who Mark Tobey was?

BH: I don't know if they did or not. Except this restaurant, because he would go in there and get, every time he'd go in there, the lady at the Maneki wouldn't charge him for his food. And so then he'd drag Paul in there together, and they'd both eat there. And they kept doing that, so he said, "We can't do that all the time," so they each gave Maneki a painting, a small painting. And they said it was hanging there, and I don't know if it's still there or not. But used to hang it in there.

TI: Yeah, I hope they took good care of them. [Laughs] I'm worried about all the oil and stuff would kind of ruin those paintings over time.

BH: Yeah, I think they probably put glass on it. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, interesting, that's a good story. So they would get free meals all the time?

BH: Every time, they said that's why they gave 'em a painting, because they got free meals every time.

TI: That's a good story. And I think I read someplace where sometimes your husband and Mark Tobey would go down to Tacoma?

BH: That's the Main Street in Tacoma.

TI: And why would they go down there?

BH: Because there was an abandoned building on that whole street there at that time. The painting was, paint was all faded and torn, looks awfully dirty. And so he said he loved the color of those places, Tobey did. So he, 'cause Tobey didn't drive, so Paul had to take him. And they'd stand there and they'd look at all the walls. And it was really, I guess to us it would look dirty and abandoned. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, that's interesting. But the two artists would go there and they would see the colors and the textures and learn from that?

BH: Yeah, and Paul learned a lot from Tobey, too. They'd be walking and they'd see a puddle of water on the street, and they'd look at it, and Tobey would be just staring at it. And he says, "See, Paul, look at the color. Isn't that beautiful?" [Laughs] So they'd stand there looking at this puddle. Things like that.

<Begin Segment 35>

TI: You know, I have to, I'm thinking about your life. And you worked so hard in your life, and you had, in some cases, a lot of difficult times. And yet you seem so positive about life, too.

BH: Well, I don't know.

TI: But I was wondering about your relationship with your husband. It seemed like the two of you complemented each other? You had a nice relationship?

BH: Oh, yes.

TI: Can you talk about your relationship?

BH: Oh, he used to do kabuki thing, acting. He was quite an actor, too. And so he, on his good days, I mean, when he was feeling good, he starts doing that Japanese, that singing, you know how it is? I can't even imitate it. But he'd be doing it away, and to me it was funny because I'd never seen anything like that. So I'd go like this and he thought I was crying because it was a sad story he was telling. [Laughs] And all the time I was just laughing, giggling to myself. "Oh, what a letdown," he says.

TI: [Laughs] So it seems like the two of you had a special... even after being married for a long time, the two of you really...

BH: Yeah, he was very good that way.

TI: Good. Well, so Bernadette, we've been at it for over two and a half hours. And so it's been a long time, so I'm getting tired, you're probably getting tired. And so I just want to thank you so much. Was there anything else that you wanted to finish off with or anything, last comments?

BH: Well, I can't think of anything in particular.

TI: Well, I did the math, you're ninety-five?

BH: Ninety-six.

TI: You're ninety-six years old.

BH: And I met him when he was twenty-two, I mean, I was twenty-two. He was about twenty-six, twenty-seven, I guess.

TI: Well, you're in remarkable condition. You look like you'd be in your early eighties when I look at you and the energy you have.

BH: [Laughs] That's what people say, but I don't see it. I feel old, and I'm getting forgetful, and I repeat things. They're always having a terrible time 'cause they say, "I told you that already." [Laughs]

TI: Well, but thank you so much for taking the time. This was really an enjoyable morning.

BH: Well, thank you. I hope I covered everything just about.

TI: Very good, so thank you very much.

BH: Oh, you're welcome.