<Begin Segment 21>

LB: I have just a couple more questions. Fred was rejected by the Japanese American community when he fought his case during World War II. And some have felt that he resisted the internment for only personal reasons, not for, not on principled grounds. How would you respond to those concerns?

EY: Well, first of all, it was really difficult for Fred and for the Japanese American community at the time Fred stood up, and Min and Gordon stood up to say, "No," to the internment. Because you gotta understand their perspective, those who were feeling so afraid and lost so much that, "If we rock the boat, it might get even worse." And it might have. Certainly from the standpoint of Fred, Gordon and Min, they realize that it was wrong, and Fred knew it was wrong. And, of course, he wanted to, for himself, to have his freedom for personal reasons like everybody would. But the moment he was picked up and the moment he was gonna be charged, he had a very easy -- well, he had a choice that would have made life easier, which is simply to go to internment camps, that's it, like everybody else. But he said no, and he said, "I'm going to challenge this," so they said, "We're gonna charge you, we're gonna try you." And he said it then and he's reiterated that ever since, that he knew it was wrong, not just against him, but against all Japanese Americans. And so I think some of the criticism about Fred only doing it for himself, that's not correct. Because he did it for himself but not only for himself. I think part of that is still from that, that sense of anxiety at that time, like, "Why are you doing this? You're making it worse." My gut sense is that some of that criticism has lessened, that as with redress and the significance of Fred's actions as part of redress, I think it helped lessen that somewhat. And I think the story of Fred Korematsu is coming out more and more and realizing that, sure, he did it for himself, but he did it for everyone, is surfacing. I think that's really important. And then I think what's really important also is that, for example, the Heart Mountain draft resisters in Wyoming, Frank Emi and that group, who I had a chance to talk with not too long ago, their resistance to being drafted was very significant and they were prosecuted. And many of the Japanese American internees felt the same way towards them as they felt towards Fred, like, "Don't make it worse, why are you resisting?" And it's only been much later that people have come to recognize the significance of that kind of resistance. And of course, they're doing it for themselves, but they're doing it for something larger for everyone else. And so I think the JACL has begun to recognize that there have been apologies, and I think that, more and more, that kind of feeling of criticism has softened. I'm not sure in your experience how that is now, but that's been my experience. So it really shows that to stand up is really hard. 'Cause you're not only standing up to the power, you're standing up sometimes to your own people and your own group, and you have to really exist almost alone for a long time. And so it really underscores -- this is what I call courage, and I think they really had it, and Fred certainly had it.

LB: So you may have actually already answered this question, and the last question. How would you, how would you describe or characterize Fred's legacy?

EY: I think it's in his own words. That he did what he did, that we helped him with what he did so that this kind of injustice wouldn't happen again to anyone anywhere.

LB: Is there anything else that you'd like to share with me about, about Fred, about your, the things that have influenced you in your work?

EY: No. I think, I think I pretty much said what I feel. This process has been very good because it's enabled me to say some things I've never said before, to also hear from you and others things that I didn't know about the legal team or people that I work so closely with. And it's really underscored for me that to do this kind of work, it has to come from a place of connection, of almost having the spirit feeling connected to the work and to the people you're with, to come out of that deeper sense of love for what you're doing and who you are. And that gives you the kind of strength to deal with the adversity, the difficulties, and have hope even when things look a little dark. And then to take the good and the bad and move forward with that. And so just this process right here has been really wonderful, and I thank you and Densho for that.

LB: Thank you.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.