<Begin Segment 19>

LB: So Fred had an enormous impact on people wherever he went to go speak. Can you tell me about the reactions -- I know you went and you would go speaking with Fred to different places. What kind of reaction did you see, response that people had to Fred, and why do you think there was that reaction?

DT: Well, certainly law students wanted to hear him, scholars, law professors, judges, lawyers, political leaders, anybody who knew anything about that case. And in law school it's mandatory reading, so everybody knew about Fred's case. Curiosity. They want to know, okay, who is this guy and what's it take to, what kind of a person would put himself out there like that and have the courage to do that? I think that was one thing. And then when we talked about what the evidence revealed, it was just, again, people I think generally were flabbergasted that this happened in America. That the process could be so thoroughly subverted by powerful people. And so Fred came to represent the ordinary guy that wanted to set the record straight, and there's a certain fascination about that. You know, the lone guy who stands up and says, in the face of all this pressure, "I'm not going to give in." And I think that... you know, he wasn't charismatic like Min, but just in his own quiet way, and speaking in a very ordinary way, it was very compelling. And you could see the look, the rapt attention people had when he would tell his stories. We'd always, if there was wine and drinks going around before the event, I know Kathryn was running around trying to limit his intake. [Laughs] 'Cause he'd have a tendency sometimes to drink a little too much, and then his story would a little bit meander, you know. But that was part of his charm and humanity, and people loved that. So he had a big impact, not so much because of what he said, but what he stood for, and how genuine he was about it.

LB: Can you tell me a little bit about Fred's work after 9/11?

DT: So, you know, after the decision came out, or after the filing and then after he won, he became very active in redress and reparations. Before 9/11 or any of those events, I mean, he was lobbying congressmen. And congressmen, senators, were thrilled to meet him, because he was the hero. He stood up, he won, he's a constitutional law legend, and for them to meet him, Fred, it was something for them. And so Fred had developed a persona of integrity, I think. And so after 9/11, Fred made it a point to -- and even before that during the first Gulf War -- that when we do have these conflicts, you can't punish people just because they look like the enemy. And that was his, his statement. So he took personal responsibility to continue this educational process, and he spoke at many colleges and universities, public events throughout the country. And after 9/11, I think Dorothy Erlich of the ACLU said that she was convinced that the reason why there was no mass racial roundup was because of the reopening of the internment camp cases and the reparations effort. She said the education was so thoroughly done that... and laws were passed, for instance, in California that they have to teach Korematsu v United States in high school. And that's hard-wired now into the curriculum about the internment. So whereas these educated reporters had no idea that this even happened, most college students now, I'm hoping, at least are aware that this had happened. So Fred was really very much involved in informing the public of his case and what he went through, and the experience of Japanese Americans, and in the correcting process America did to right the ship.

LB: What would you say is -- my last question -- what would you say is Fred's legacy?

DT: Well, God, with a legacy... you have so many different levels on him. I mean, one, stand up for what you believe in. Have the courage to stand up. Another legacy is really not so much Fred but government. The excesses of power and the need for ethical people to make the right decisions in the face of extreme pressure. And you contrast Fred's position and his stand, and Gordon and Min also, with Harvard, Yale, Stanford educated lawyers in the Justice Department. That when it came down to, push comes to shove, whether to tell the truth or lie, they chose the convenient path, to lie. And that is another lesson in this case. I think another lesson is just gaman, you know, the Japanese philosophy to endure and persevere and suck it up and get on with your life, but don't forget it. Don't forget what happened, and to make, take a step to educate the country. I mean, when you think about it, it was a textbook lesson on the meaning of the Constitution. And that's a pretty good gift to the American public. I think Fred's case stands for that. So legacy for Japanese Americans, they're a tiny population, really tiny in terms of American history, but they've left a big mark here. I mean, one was a mark of shame, not for anything that Japanese Americans ever did, but for what was done to them. But then, yeah, how they kind of rose above things, kept their dignity, and have gone out beyond that as Fred has done to make sure it doesn't happen to any other group. I think that's pretty noble. So there's a lot of different ways to look at it.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.