<Begin Segment 16>

LB: Tell me about working with the legal team. What were the meetings and the work sessions like? What was the chemistry on the team?

DT: The chemistry was good. You know, the guy I have to credit for the... I mean, it was a marvelous team for a lot of reasons. I think everybody had strengths to offer, but the person who coordinated all of that, I think, was Dale. I mean, he did it in a way that was respectful of people's position and contributions, and he always was trying to work a way of getting and taking advantage of everybody's contributions, and also giving everybody credit, and making them feel a part of the team. It takes a real leader to do that. And we were just lucky to have him, right person, right time. He was perfect for that. And then he also got the fact right from the start that this was a political case, and everybody else on the team got that from the start, that this was no ordinary lawsuit, this had to be handled in a different way. And fortunately, we had people who had the skills to basically do that. And then Peter Irons himself was just a remarkable scholar. I mean, he could have taken that case and given it to anybody, and they might have handled it, they would have handled it a lot differently than a team of Japanese American lawyers would. And so the fact that he decided it was important to have Japanese American lawyers reopening their own case, I mean, that's something that most people wouldn't share. I mean, you know, if a scholar found this information, they'd want to bask in that discovery for their own, promote their own position, and Peter wasn't like that. So the team really was, you know, you said a "love fest." Everybody worked well together and respected... we had heated discussions and arguments, but at the end of the day, it was always consensus. It was never any split. We debated, we disagreed, but ultimately, we agreed. And it was a career highlight, I would say.

LB: Can you recall any rough spots? Conflicts on the team or with the clients? How the team might have worked through them?

DT: I recall Dale's blowup with Min Yasui. I'm sure you interviewed him about that, but I was there. Oh, maybe this is related to Goldberg or something. Anyway, Min... this is a guy that defied the government. And while everybody was saying, "Okay, we've got a bayonet at our back, the government has issued orders for curfew, we're gonna cooperate. The government has issued orders to be interned, guess we're going to prison." I mean, Min felt as an American citizen, he had a duty to violate the law. He tried to get other people to do it and they told him he was crazy, and he got himself arrested. He spent almost a year in solitary confinement before being interned. He lost his citizenship somehow in the process, the court took it away, he had to launch a separate legal action to get it back. Just a huge, charismatic speaker. I always felt that if he was born and raised in another time, like now, he'd be a senator. He might be a presidential candidate, who knows? I mean, the guy was formidable. And Dale is trying to tell him what to do? I mean, that doesn't work. A guy like that is not going to obey anybody unless he respects you. And so he was, we were trying to keep the story quiet, of what we found, and Min was just talking about it. And Dale said, "Look, you gotta stop talking to groups about this. We don't want you to talk to the press, we want you to clear everything through us." And you start issuing rules to Min Yasui? Impossible. And so I'm standing here and they're yelling at each other on the phone. I didn't, Min was in Denver and Dale was in Oakland. And it's back and forth, Dale's yelling at him on the phone, and then he goes, bang. [Pantomimes slamming phone down] And I'm looking at him from about twenty feet away in another room, and I look up, and I thought, "Do we still have a client?" And Dale says, he looks up, and he looks me in the eye and he says, "Do you think I should call him back?" And I said, "I think you should call him back." [Laughs] And so Dale calls him up literally within the next sixty seconds and says, "Min, I want to clear the air." And there's this back and forth, and Min said -- and I wasn't on the line -- something to the words of, "It takes a real man to say that and to call me back. And yes, let's clear the air." So he felt bad, too, he felt really bad. 'Cause he was getting, he was very skeptical about this case. He thought, "Oh, they found a bunch of documents. I don't think this case is going to go anywhere, but I'll go along with these kids." But by the time things started rolling, he became invested in the process, he got his own lawyer to go to, attend the team meetings just to see what we're up to. And I think his lawyer reported back that, "These folks are on to something."

LB: And this was Frank Chuman.

DT: Frank Chuman. At least that was my interpretation of why he was there. And after that blowup and reconciliation, Min was so, he was our biggest supporter. He was very cooperative, got the strategy and really bonded to it. That was, that was one the more rough events.

LB: Did other groups outside of the Japanese American community support the efforts of the team? I know that there was some support from the Jewish organizations, certainly the ACLU. Was the support... I guess I'm interested in what type of coalition building was done around the case.

DT: Coalition building. There was a lot of groups that just, even the ACLU didn't look good on the list because when Fred was arrested, the national board had sent out a directive to all the chapters saying, ordering them not to represent Japanese Americans, and it was the Northern California chapter that broke away. So even... this whole thing kind of resurrected the chapter in which they did some really great things, local chapter getting Wayne Collins involved and reopening it, versus the national that wanted to support the war effort and had ordered the local chapter not to represent Fred, and threatened the Northern California chapter with ouster. You know, the coalition building, I don't think that materialized much until way later. I think most of the money, for instance, which is a true indication of support to me, came from Japanese Americans who were fully invested in this process 'cause they were, it was their history. And it was only after, afterwards, I think, that people began to link it with other issues, whether it's discrimination against Arab Americans or other groups. Now, I may be wrong on that, maybe I'm not recalling something, but that was my recollection.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2009 Densho. All Rights Reserved.