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TI: Well, to the Japanese, did you begin to stand out a little bit more? Because you were a Japanese American, a diplomat, and as you would make your way around, my sense is in getting to know you, Lucius, you're very good at getting to know people. And I'm wondering, did you find yourself at times, perhaps, being more effective because of being Japanese American as you worked with the Japanese?

LH: Oh, I feel that very strongly, more effective. Because they trusted me more because... this is an extremely sensitive area to discuss, because it can be misinterpreted. But a number of Japanese consider Nikkei Japanese. They don't look upon citizenship, they look upon blood. So they initially may approach you or negotiate with you on the basis that we're the same. "Your name is Horiuchi, my name is Tanaka," whatever, "and we have the same blood. So you're one of us." And I had to explain to any number of Japanese, both diplomats and friends and acquaintances that, "Listen. I'm proud of being of Japanese ancestry, my blood is pure Japanese, but I'm an American. I was born and brought up in America, I'm loyal to America, I never gave it a second thought that I could be loyal to any other country." But in their mind, a Japanese with Japanese blood is, and regardless of what country they're from, they are Japanese.

TI: That's good.

LH: But that's a two-edged sword.

TI: Well, the other thing that might have played a factor was your age. I mean, when, your first tour of duty, you were a young man.

LH: Oh, yes, I was twenty-three, and I looked eighteen.

TI: And you're dealing probably with, oftentimes, with men much older.

LH: Oh, much, much older. Oftentimes a generation or two older. And in fact, I don't want to say I exploited, but I utilized that age difference to have them treat me not only as an equal, but more like the feeling between, say, a grandfather and a grandchild. In other words, "Take me under your wing, educate me, tell me what's going on in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, tell me more about how I should work with the Japanese." And a lot of them did take me under their wing, I would say, not as a grandson or a son, but as a, they would be my sensei and I would be their deshi, their disciple, to some extent.

TI: And they were trying to help you because they thought that would help, perhaps, your career?

LH: Oh, help my career, help, you know, U.S.-Japan relations. We all have multifarious motivations involved in whatever we do, but I, you're right, I think I'm pretty good at reading people and utilizing that information almost immediately in whatever relationship I develop.

TI: Well, so in the same way, they looked at you perhaps as a, possibly as a son, nephew or grandson. When you dealt with these older Japanese, how did that differ or how was that compared to you dealing with the Isseis that you knew? Like your father, your uncles, the ones who were Issei, who immigrated, was there much difference between the men that you dealt with in Japan and the Issei in the United States?

LH: Excellent question. You may not know that all Nikkei, Nisei, called the Issei "Obasan," "Ojisan," "uncle," "aunt." And everyone was like part of the family, even though we weren't living in the Nikkei community, we were still, in a sense, part of the Nikkei community. But they were not truly relatives, and in my case, when I then went to Japan as a diplomat, they were not my relatives, and even though some were a lot older than me, and we treated each other as equals, as diplomats, but at the same time, because of the age difference, there were some additional considerations, I think, given to me because I was eager and young and willing to work. Again, that's a two-way street, and a double-edged sword, but can be exploited for our purposes.

TI: So at times for you, though, was it hard for you to, oh, be harder on someone who you viewed as, perhaps, a jichan, ojisan or obasan? I mean, how was that for you? Was there that line, that, at times, did you feel like, "Oh, I have to be careful, they remind me so much of my relatives or people I respected back at home"?

LH: Yes, I don't think the latter. But I think along the lines that if they felt too close to me for reasons I just mentioned, I wouldn't withdraw, but I would sort of draw the line. And through various subjects, point out to them as subtly as possible that there is a difference, and we are from two different nations, and we are not, in essence, "blood brothers."

TI: Good. Okay, that was very good.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2008 Densho. All Rights Reserved.