Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Maynard Horiuchi Interview
Narrator: Maynard Horiuchi
Interviewer: Tom Ikeda
Location: Sonoma, California
Date: November 20-21, 2008
Densho ID: denshovh-hmaynard-01-0020
   
Japanese translation of this segment Japanese translation of complete interview

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TI: So tell me, Chiang Kai-shek is a very historic figure. What can you tell me about him? What was he like as a person?

MH: Well, we have, I have the story -- well, the visit to Nanking was very brief. We did get up to this beautiful... what do I call it, astronomical... what was it? It was a place where they had all of their equipment for searching the stars and all that. Very long, long ago. I mean, long before the West had those instruments. We did go up there. And Madame gave me a big hat, I remember, which I wore in the pictures that were taken there. And they were very kind and generous to us. And then we were invited up to this residence in Kuling, which was his summer headquarters, which... what we did, we flew to Nanking and then crossed the river there to the southern side, and were taken up in, in sedan chairs, taken up the mountain to Kuling in sedan chairs. And we were being escorted by this Chinese nationalist general who was at least three hundred pounds, I think. And so he required quite a few more coolies on his sedan chair than Charlie or I required on ours. [Laughs] And it just amazed me going up this -- of course, I was, had never wanted to even ride in a rickshaw, because I was very much for the rights of men, and I didn't like, I never thought I'd be going in a sedan chair going up the hill. But as we came to one, came up to one of the... there were various tea places to have tea along the way, little, not inns, but something along the way. We came up to this, and there was this enormous generator there, tremendous size and heavy and all that. And all these coolies who had been carrying it had stopped for a tea break, and then they got back under that generator and were carrying it up the hills. 'Cause there were no, there were no vehicles up there in Kuling. I mean, no, no motorized vehicles in Kuling. So we arrived in Kuling. It was beautiful, it was just like Shangri-la, you came up the mountain, and then you looked over and across this bridge, and then on the other side was this settlement, which had been made by the American missionaries, so it was all Western-style houses, really. That's where they used to go from Shanghai to, in the summertime. And there was a school there for the missionaries, I think John... what's his name, there was one author who wrote quite a bit about this, I have his books about that. He was a missionary's son. And while we were there, the first night we were there, we were invited to General Marshall, to his headquarters because he was the then advisor to the Generalissimo.

TI: So this is the General Marshall of the Marshall Plan, George Marshall?

MH: Yes, yes. And his wife.

TI: And he wasn't necessarily stationed in the Pacific, he was just visiting?

LH: He was (Special Representative of the President to China).

TI: (Special Representative of the President to China), okay. So again, very prominent, along with your father, so your father was...

MH: Yes. And so we went to their house before dinner, which was going to be at the Generalissimo's. And during the course of the conversations there, it turned out that they had taught the Generalissimo how to play Chinese checkers. And Mother immediately said, "Oh, Maynard knows how to play Chinese checkers," and so they decided to try to see if the Generalissimo would play Chinese checkers with me. So we went to dinner and had a very nice dinner, Madame at one end of the table and the Generalissimo at the other. At the end of the dinner, we retired to a little sitting room where they put up this table, and the Generalissimo sat on one side with his military men standing around him, and I sat on the other side in my little Sonoma-made evening dress. And they pulled out the Chinese checkerboard, and it turned out that he only played one corner against the other corner instead of three against three. So the first time that we played, I beat him. So he wanted to play again, so we played again, and I beat him again. And then, well, he wanted another one, so I played him again and beat him again. I think he thought that was enough, and he sort of said, "Han ho," which means "very good," I think, in Chinese. And that was the end of the games. And my mother later said, "Maynard, you were so undiplomatic." But the Generalissimo told Madame to give me a wedding lamp, well, a pair, they were always a pair, a pair of wedding lamps, and showered favors on me. So he obviously had not taken it amiss, at least, he certainly hid it if he did.

And then I remember after that, the next day we went on to a, went on a picnic up in the hills, and it was the most beautiful view of this land south of there, the vast expanse of China south of there. It was, and you know, the browns and the colors of this whole landscape were amazing. But it is... not the greens, you know, there aren't that many greens. But it was overwhelming to view. Well, at that particular picnic, the Generalissimo and Madame were both along, and we went in sedan chairs to the picnic. And Charlie was supposed to vie with this same general that escorted us up there, the very big general, to see how much chicken, you know, chicken that he could eat, how many pieces of chicken he could eat. So Charlie and the General strove with each other, and Charlie beat him. [Laughs] He ate more chicken than the General did.

TI: Wow, so it's just this really engaging, I mean, you guys were really close and doing lots with these, these Chinese leaders of the Nationalist party.

MH: Yes. And what amazed me, you know, for this picnic, of course, they brought out linens, they had white linens, and they served, we didn't eat with the chopsticks that time, we had silver, and glasses, and it was all a very upper class picnic, I must say.

TI: So I'm curious, you mentioned at the very beginning, the protesters against Chiang Kai-shek. After being with him and doing all this, did that change your impressions of the General?

MH: I didn't regard him in that fashion. He was, he was the head of the country, and he was, my father was doing the best he could for him, and he was perfectly amiable to me, and Madame was very gracious to me. And so I didn't take, take it personally that I would stand against him as far as being acquainted and being with him was concerned. But, of course, philosophically, I had another attitude, yes.

TI: Okay, good. So any other stories, Chiang Kai-shek or Madame?

MH: No, I think that's it.

TI: So continue, so how long were you in Tsingtao, and what happened next?

MH: I started work there for, after my twenty-first birthday, I started work there for a unit attached to the Navy. And continued that until I left China in... when did I leave? '47 or '48, '47, I guess.

TI: And then shortly after, I think your father also retired?

MH: Not, not that soon after, I don't think.

TI: So about a year or so afterwards?

MH: '48, Dad retired.

TI: About a year later, he retired.

MH: Yes. But I flew down to Shanghai before I left, and had an interesting time there with this same unit. And, well, just seeing Shanghai was, was quite incredible. You know, there was a vast influx of White Russians in China, and I went to several of the teahouses of the White Russians there. Well, it was, it was a very interesting time, then. And then I flew back to Washington, D.C., and continued work with this, this unit there in Washington, D.C.

LH: Madame corresponded with you, I believe.

MH: Yes. Madame continued to write with, write to me, and she, and she did send me these wedding lamps. And then actually, I was going to be, I was, I was at that time engaged to be married to somebody else long before I met Lucius, and she gave me a beautiful length of white satin to be made into a wedding dress. And that, that wedding did not take place, and I also don't remember what happened to that satin. [Laughs] But she was very kind and continued to be in touch with me.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2008 Densho. All Rights Reserved.