Densho Digital Archive - Nancy Sawada Miyagishima Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

MA: Today is May 13, 2008. And I'm here with Nancy Miyagishima. We're in the Marriott Residence Hotel in Denver, Colorado. I'm Megan Asaka, and camera person today is Dana Hoshide. So Nancy, thanks so much for coming here to do an interview with us.

NM: You're quite welcome.

MA: I really appreciate it. So I'm going to start with just some basic questions. When were you born?

NM: September 17, 1930.

MA: Okay. And where were you born?

NM: Sacramento, California.

MA: And were you born in the city, or like surrounding areas?

NM: Well, we lived in a surrounding area, but we went to the city. It was like a midwife place.

MA: Oh, when you were born you went into the city.

NM: Yeah. We did off and on live in the city, too, but we moved around so much.

MA: And what was the name given to you at birth?

NM: Yumiko Tomita.

MA: And how did you get the name Nancy?

NM: Well, when I started school, my mother thought I should have an English name. So she named me Violet, but changed it eventually to Nancy. [Laughs]

MA: Did you come up with Nancy then?

NM: No, she just changed it.

MA: Oh, your mother did.

NM: I think violet was her favorite flower. And then, Nancy was her favorite actress or...

MA: So I wanted to talk a little bit about your family background. And we can start with your mother's side. Your mother was actually born in the U.S. Is that right?

NM: Yes.

<Begin Segment 2>

MA: Can you talk a little bit about her parents and that story?

NM: Uh-huh. It would be my grandmother and grandfather, right? On my mother's side. And they left Japan at an early age, I would say in their teens. And, I think my grandmother was a little younger. And they lived in Hawaii, pineapple -- well, my grandfather was a foreman for the pineapple plantation. And, they met there and got married. And they had their first child there. And then in 1906, they decided to come to the United States.

MA: So your grandparents, your maternal grandparents, then, came separately to Hawaii. And then they actually met in Hawaii?

NM: Yes. Uh-huh.

MA: And you said your grandfather was working on a plantation?

NM: Uh-huh, as a foreman.

MA: And then what were his reasons for leaving Hawaii and moving to California?

NM: As I recall... I can't remember. I should have brought that article, but I forgot. And my mother, or my grandmother was, I think her father remarried and the stepmother was kind of cruel to her. So, there was a relative living in Hawaii, so she left it and came to live in Hawaii.

MA: I see, so that's how she left Japan and ended up in Hawaii. And then, did they eventually end up in Sacramento, your grandparents?

NM: Well, they were supposed to land in San Francisco, but it was the time of that earthquake, in 1906. So they had to bypass that area, and I think they eventually landed in Oakland and then migrated to Sacramento area.

MA: Did they ever talk about seeing San Francisco? Like at that point, I guess it would be kind of...

NM: No, I hear it through my aunts and uncles. And that's how we get our stories.

MA: And so then, your mother was born in Sacramento?

NM : Uh-huh, right.

MA: And what's your mother's name?

NM: Grace Aiko. The maiden name?

MA: Sure.

NM: Morikawa.

<Begin Segment 3>

MA: And what was your maternal grandparents, what were they doing in Sacramento? What jobs did they do?

NM: Let's see. They had a boarding house. And then that didn't go too well, so they opened a laundry store and they couldn't read or write English, so that didn't go too well. And then they opened a noodle shop, and my grandparents were so generous that they didn't let 'em pay for their food. [Laughs] So that didn't go too well. So they finally established a grape farm in, not Florin, Perkins, California, just about, oh, fifteen files from Sacramento.

MA: And you said that was what kind of farm again?

NM: Wine and table grapes.

MA: And were they pretty successful?

NM: I thought so. Uh-huh.

MA: And so when your mother was born, that's what they were doing at the time? They were farming?

NM: Uh, no. No. I think that was way before. Or way after, I'm sorry.

MA: Way after. So let's talk a little bit then about your birth father. And just a little bit about maybe where he was from in Japan, if you know?

NM: He was from Aichi-ken. That's near Tokyo, I think.

MA: Do you know why he came to the U.S. and what he did when he got here?

NM: No, I don't know too much about him. Except that he was pretty well-to-do, he had a business with his brother in Sacramento, or Marysville area, I don't know.

<Begin Segment 4>

MA: And do you know about how your parents met? Did they meet in California, or in Sacramento?

NM: Uh-huh, I think so. Yeah, and this was not a baishakunin marriage.

MA: You mean it was a love marriage?

NM: Right.

MA: How did your grandparents react to that?

NM: I really don't know. When they got married, my mom didn't have to work. They had a beautiful house, a nice backyard. And that's when my brother was born. So she was leading a good life then. And then something happened and I don't know the whole story but they separated before I was born. And there's one incident where my brother was in the backyard and my father came from San Francisco and kidnapped him and took him to San Francisco. [Laughs]

MA: So your parents then split up, or separated for some reason. And your brother, your older brother was a small child and your father just kind of came and...

NM: Took him. [Laughs]

MA: What were your, so you said your father was pretty well off. What was he doing in California?

NM: I think he had a garage or something like that.

MA: And did your parents sort of separate, was it because your grandparents didn't approve, or just sort of circumstances?

NM: Circumstances. Yeah, and then my grandfather didn't want them to get back together even though my mother was carrying me. So he did come around when I was being born, but they wouldn't let him in. And I have never seen him.

MA: So then they separated when you were, even before you were born, so you must have been...

a newborn. Yeah. And so your mother then, did your mother then move in, did you live with your grandparents?

NM: Yes, we did. Until my mom decided well, you know, she didn't want to be a burden to my grandparents, so this is like a baishakunin marriage, and my stepfather was a farmer, a strawberry farmer.

MA: I see. So then your mother was set up with someone else.

NM: Yeah. And my brother says she went from riches to rags. [Laughs]

MA: Really?

NM: Yeah, 'cause she had silk clothes and all that and then she had to wear cotton dresses and go out in the field and work in the strawberry farm.

MA: Right, that must have been a really difficult transition for her.

NM: Uh-huh, but she never complained. And she was very talented. She sewed and did craftwork and read and write English and Japanese. And so, all the friends that knew her when they got a letter from Japan, they would come to her to read or translate and write back and so forth.

MA: And what was your stepfather like? You said he was a strawberry farmer?

NM: Uh-huh. He was very nice to us. It's just that he was, how do you say, poor. [Laughs]

MA: And how old were you when they were married?

NM: Let's see, I must have been five, maybe, four going on five, maybe.

MA: And how old is your brother? How many years older is your brother?

NM: Just eighteen months apart.

MA: And what's your brother's name?

NM: Harry Haruo Sawada. Well, it used to be Tomita.

<Begin Segment 5>

MA: So then you grow up on a strawberry farm.

NM: Well, I mostly stayed with my grandparents.

MA: Did your brother as well?

NM: No, we always were separated. When my mother got married the second time, we all briefly lived together. And then when my mom got sick, well, then I went back to my grandparents, and my younger sister, too. And then my brother stayed with the stepfather.

MA: I see, so when did your mother get sick? How old were you?

NM: Pardon me?

MA: How old were you when your mother got sick?

NM: Let's see. I must have been about six then.

MA: And what, did she have a chronic illness?

NM: Well, she, it started out with pneumonia, but she had to go out and work in the field, and it turned into tuberculosis. And then she still worked. And so then she was sent to a sanitarium in Weimar, California, up in the mountains. And, and that was the last I ever saw of her, alive anyway.

MA: When she was in the sanitarium.

NM: Uh-huh. Went to visit her, once, I think, but we were, like, far away from her and we couldn't get close to her. And then, she knew she was going to die, so she promised all my relatives that the three of us would be together, never separate us, but it never happened.

MA: The three of you meaning, you and your brother and then you had a sister at that point, who was the daughter of your mother and stepfather?

NM: Uh-huh, right.

MA: So she said that you'd never be separated, basically, the siblings.

NM: Yeah, she made them promise that we would never be separated. But I guess we were separated that year, the same year. Same year my mom died the year of the war.

MA: 1941.

NM: And then we moved to Santa Monica.

MA: In L.A.?

NM: Uh-huh, L.A. area. Santa Monica.

MA: So you moved with your maternal grandparents.

NM: Uh-huh. The three of us were together then. Then I was sent to Colorado. My brother stayed in Santa Monica. And my sister was still there when I left, but he came home from school one day and she was gone, just like that. They sent her up north.

MA: To be with her father?

NM: Stepfather.

MA: Your stepfather.

NM: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 6>

MA: So going back a little bit to Santa Monica, what, so your grandparents at that point moved from northern to southern California.

NM: Right.

MA: What were they doing in Santa Monica? What type of work?

NM: Gardening. See, my uncle was there. My oldest aunt and uncle was there doing gardening work. And so, he did gardening. And then the rest of them worked in town at Vons Market and so forth.

MA: So in, when you were living in Sacramento, what grade school were you attending at that point?

NM: Let's see. I attended, one, two, three, three different grade school.

MA: Oh, wow.

NM: Plus, I went to the same one twice. So that would be four. Was called, let's see what was it called? Washington Elementary School.

MA: In Sacramento. Okay. And then when you moved to L.A., to Santa Monica, you started a new school.

NM: Uh-huh. And that was, I forgot the name of it.

MA: What were your memories of Santa Monica and arriving there, and your first impressions of southern California?

NM: I didn't have any memories of the place. We lived in town and we lived near our cousins and we went to the beach and so forth. In fact, all our relatives eventually moved to southern California.

MA: Were your grandparents pretty successful financially? Or how were they doing in Santa Monica?

NM: They were doing pretty well because their children were grown and they were working. And then they moved into a nice house and bought new furniture and then the war broke out and they had to leave all that behind. Didn't even have time to sell the place. I remember my aunt telling me that my grandfather was burning some papers in the backyard, in the incinerator, I guess. And the neighbors called the FBI and they arrested him because they said he was burning spy papers. But then his friends vouched for him, so he got to come back.

MA: And this was after Pearl Harbor?

NM: Yes, yes.

<Begin Segment 7>

MA: So you were eleven when Pearl Harbor happened. Your mother...

NM: Let's see. Yes, I was eleven.

MA: So your mother had passed away a few months earlier.

NM: In the spring.

MA: In the spring.

NM: March, uh-huh.

MA: You had moved down from Sacramento to Santa Monica, southern California. Where were you when Pearl Harbor happened on December 7, 1941?

NM: I was already sent to Colorado.

MA: Okay, so you were in Colorado. Can you talk about the circumstances about why you were sent there?

NM: Well, my aunt was living on a farm in Fort Lupton area. And she had three sons, and they were younger than me. And the youngest one, they wanted, my aunt wasn't feeling too well, so they wanted me to take care of the younger brother, even though I was only, what, eleven or so. And one of my aunt came along with me to Colorado, and when the war broke out, well she barely made it back to Santa Monica. She was on a train full of soldiers. [Laughs] But they all treated her well.

MA: Okay, so you were living in Fort Lupton, Colorado, when the war broke out. Do you have any memories of that day? About hearing about it?

NM: No, I just, no. I knew about it, but it didn't bother me. I guess I was too young to even comprehend what was happening. But on the farm, I think it was towards the end of the war, we had, there was a German prison in Brighton, which is between, well, we lived between Fort Lupton and Brighton, and these prisoners used to come to work on our farm. And they were young, 'cause towards the end, they had nothing but young boy in the service. So my aunt and I used to take sandwiches and apples out to them to supplement their lunch. But we really, and I was on the farm until I was almost sixteen. And we really worked hard. Like sugar beets and all that. It was hard work.

<Begin Segment 8>

MA: How was that then for you coming from, I guess, the city, Santa Monica and showing up in Fort Lupton. What was that transition like?

NM: On the farm, they didn't have indoor bathroom, no running water, and no electricity. So we had kerosene lamps. And we had to haul coal in and pump water and bring it in the house. And, the water was my duty to bring in and we had a bathtub built. I used to carry the bucket on my side here, that's why my, I'm not, my posture isn't straight, it's kind of curved. And that's, I think that was the start of my scoliosis. Because I was at the age when my bones were just growing yet. That's what my uncle says. [Laughs]

MA: So it was really hard work then.

NM: The farm was really hard work, yeah. Very hard.

MA: Were you going to school each day and then coming home and working on the farm?

What was your typical day?

NM: Let's see. Oh, get up in the morning, go to school, come home, and I guess we didn't go out in the field, but in the summer, we start out early in the morning and break for lunch and then go back to it. And then, during the sugar beets' harvest, then we stay out of school for two weeks. And that was in November, 'cause that's when the sugar accumulates in the beets, and that's when you have to harvest them. And sometime it's snow on the ground, but we still have to go out and work in the field.

MA: I imagine in that time, sugar beets must have been in high demand. Wasn't there like a shortage or something, during the war?

NM: Yeah, well during the war, you had these coupons where you could only get so much of sugar, or what was it, shoes. And so forth.

MA: And what school were you going to there in Fort Lupton?

NM: I went, see our farm was divided. One part was Fort Lupton, the other part was Brighton. But the house sat on the Fort Lupton side. So, I went to, well, the grade school, I went to Independence, which was on the Brighton side. In high school, I went to Fort Lupton High School.

MA: I see, so you sort of switched.

NM: Uh-huh. I guess that's the way it was. And we, of course, our social activities were mostly in Brighton, church and so forth. The only thing in Brighton was just going to high school.

MA: So in Fort Lupton was there a strong Japanese American community that you remember?

NM: I thought so. And half of them was from the West Coast.

MA: You mean people who had come during the time that you came, maybe, or maybe a little bit after?

NM: Uh-huh.

MA: So in your grade school, I guess in Independence School, how many Japanese Americans were in your class, do you remember?

NM: Let's see, there was one, just one that I know of that's a native there. And then, and then, several of them came from the West Coast. I don't know if they came from the camp or, or on a work program, or what. But, I think there was a couple of them that I know of, but very few.

MA: Were your teachers mainly Caucasian?

NM: Uh-huh. Yes.

MA: And how did they treat you and your family?

NM: I thought they, we were treated decently.

MA: Who were some of your friends, back in that time, especially in Fort Lupton? Who did you play with and socialize with?

NM: You mean names?

MA: Yeah, or just, what you did together for fun after school, or on the weekends.

NM: Well see, we were bussed in, so we had to come straight home. But I did have a couple of friends that we ran around together.

MA: You were bussed in from all over? Students from all over that area would be bussed in, went to the school?

NM: Right, uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 9>

MA: What religion did your family practice at that point?

NM: Buddhist.

MA: And was there a temple, or Buddhist church in Fort Lupton?

NM: There was one there, but we went to the Brighton. We belonged to the Brighton church.

MA: What was the Buddhist church like at that point? A lot of people described it as a sort of, in other communities, the sort of the center of the community.

NM: That's right.

MA: Were there activities there?

NM: Oh, yes. We had our, like, hanamatsuri they call, and we dressed in kimono and danced, and I was in the choir there. Attended church every Sunday. But after I moved to Denver, I never did, after I got married, my husband was a Christian, so it was kind of hard to be going to the Buddhist church. So I am the only Buddhist in the family. And my youngest granddaughter, she kind of converted. She said, "I'm a Buddhist too." Although she was baptized Catholic. [Laughs] 'Cause she loved to dance and, and, and they attend the Buddhist church for activities, uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 10>

MA: When you were in Fort Lupton, right around the time that Pearl Harbor happened, were you in communication with your grandparents and your brother? Did you know what was going on on the coast?

NM: I guess so, but then I don't remember. All I remember is that, them coming to Colorado, to my aunt's farm. They all came to my aunt's farm.

MA: Oh, your grandparents and your brother?

NM: Uh-huh. He came with, yeah, my cousins.

MA: And so they were actually able to come before people were taken away to camps, right? During that period before?

NM: No, it was during the period.

MA: Right, okay.

NM: And there was a deadline. So they had to come by, I think it was in the winter, that I know of, March maybe. And they all drove out here. And I remember at, I guess the border, you have to check in at the state line or border. And I remember my brother getting out of the pick-up, they all, my cousin and he was in the back of a pick-up truck. And, well, before that, they were going through Arizona and they were refused gas, and they were being harassed. So they decided to go further up north and take the northern route which is more dangerous. And, I guess at the border, at the inspection station, I guess, my uncle got out and had to go, and my aunt was in the front seat, of course, with the little one, and they told my brother, I mean, she told my brother, "Well, go see what Uncle Goto's doing." And he got out and he hit his head on a truck or something, fell along and slipped on the ice maybe. And he blacked out and they left him behind. [Laughs]

MA: So how did he end up getting back to --

NM: Well, the National Guard saw, I guess they knew what happened, I don't know. So they chased the car, the truck down to Georgetown or some small town. [Laughs]

MA: So then your, it sounds like then your whole family kind of came out.

NM: Separately, uh-huh. And my uncle that was in the service, well, they were all in the service, but they drove the northern route because of what happened to the Gotos. And my uncle was the only one driving, because my other uncle was an Issei and he, they weren't able to get a license, driver's license. So, my other uncle drove and he got so tired, he pulled to the side of the road, take a little nap like 3 o'clock in the morning. And when the sun came out, they were right on the edge of the side of the mountain, steep mountain. And my uncle on the passenger side said, "Boy, if I had gone out to go to the bathroom," he wouldn't be here.

MA: Wow.

NM: That's how close they were to the edge.

MA: Sounds like a kind of dangerous journey to cross to Colorado.

NM: Oh, yeah. That's why my cousin tells me, you know, "The people that went into camp, they were kind of protected by the National Guard, or whoever, but they had to come on their own." And she said she was really scared. She's the oldest of all my cousins, and she says it was a scary time for her and all the families that came out here.

MA: That's an interesting perspective, I think. Her perspective was that they had no protection whatsoever. They had nothing.

NM: That's right, they were on their own.

MA: They're on their own.

<Begin Segment 11>

MA: So let's talk about, you mentioned earlier your, your younger sister who before the war, was sent to live with your stepfather in Sacramento.

NM: Well, you know, that part I don't understand. I get two stories. They, my brother heard the night before that they said the house was too small and we can't afford to keep her, is what my brother overheard. And, the other story is my uncle said, when the war broke out, he knew my stepfather was going into camp, so he decided to take my little sister to say goodbye to my stepfather. And when he got there, then, I guess he left to do something, and when he came back, my stepfather hid her, so he had to come back to Santa Monica. And I don't understand that, because, after the war, I mean when the war broke out, they were not allowed to travel. Just a twenty-mile radius of where they were. And so I don't know the whole story.

MA: So it seems then, uncertain circumstances surrounding. But your sister was young, wasn't she. A small child?

NM: Four or five. And then, they were sent to, I don't know what assembly center they went to, but they went to Jerome. And from Jerome, my stepfather denounced, repatriated. Wanted to repatriate to Japan.

MA: Renounced his citizenship.

NM: Yeah, so they were sent to Tule Lake. And I think before that they wanted to get my little sister out, but it was too late.

MA: You mean get her out of the camp.

NM: Out of camp. I don't think my stepfather would have. And, and then she forgot her father. She knew her mother, but she forgot her brother and sister. Or she wondered what happened to us and, and then when she was in camp, she was afraid of the guards and she thought they were gonna shoot her. And you think like that when you're little.

MA: I imagine it must have been very scary.

NM: Yeah, because when they were sent to Tule Lake, 'course, a lot of them had to go to other camps to make room for these, they're non the "no-no" boys, but the "no-no" boys were there too, besides the ones that denounced their citizenship. Anyway, what was I going to say now?

MA: You were talking about your younger sister, being in Tule Lake.

NM: Uh-huh. She doesn't remember anything about the camp except the guard and the rifle. And when they got to Tule Lake, oh, this is what I was going to say. They were separated from the older, like the grown-ups. They were in a separate area, like a little nursery.

MA: Oh, the children were separated.

NM: Uh-huh. And when they were shipped to Japan, which was just shortly after war, 1946, they were shipped from San Francisco, I guess, on the USS General H Gordon, and they were down below the deck, and the MIS were upstairs. And I think, I think my husband's brother was on there, and our best friend were MIS. And they were told that there's 150 Japanese prisoners of war down below, so please don't have anything to do with them. And mainly to exchange for prisoners over there. So when they got to Japan, my husband's older, my husband's cousin, who was sixteen, remembers docking at this one area near Tokyo, I guess it was. And it was cold, and I think my sister later on when we started writing said that she remembered sitting on a stone slab while her father went to scrounge for something to eat and so forth.

MA: And that was February of '46. I imagine life was pretty rough in Japan.

NM: Oh, it was for them. In fact, they weren't welcome there.

MA: You mean the people who had renounced their American citizenship and had been shipped over to Japan.

NM: Yeah, they call them gaijins. Yeah, we weren't Japanese, we were Americans. To them anyways.

MA: So your sister remembers sort of negative feelings.

NM: Yeah at that time, they called her gaijin and threw stuff at her. 'Cause she had to start Japanese school from the beginning and she was older and much bigger than the rest of them, and they teased her. But she came out all right. Got married and had a nice life.

<Begin Segment 12>

MA: What type of work did your stepfather do in Japan? Do you know?

NM: My stepfather, I don't know. He eventually married over there and took the wife's name. They do that when there isn't anyone to hand the property to. So he lived on a, I don't know if it was a farm or what, but they had property down there. And I remember my sister writing, not to me, but to my brother that she had one picture of my mother, and she had pasted it in one of her boxes on the cover, because I don't think my stepfather wanted to have anything to do with us, although he was pretty nice to us while we were together.

MA: How did you find out about her? Were you in communication with her? You said you received, your brother received a letter, was it --

NM: I think what happened was my brother was a Boy Scout leader, and they went up north to Sacramento for a conference, and he was looking through the roster and he saw a Sawada, and it happened to be my stepfather's, father's kids. And this person was going to go to Japan on this Boy Scout, another conference. So he, see, they knew where my sister was. But they wouldn't tell us.

MA: You mean your, the relatives.

NM: My stepfather's family.

[Interruption]

MA: You were telling the story about your brother communicating with your sister who was in Japan. How he was in the Boy Scouts and went to Sacramento.

NM: Oh, okay. My brother gave this, supposedly a cousin, his address and said, "If you see her, give her this address." And I guess this cousin knew where she was. Where we didn't know, we didn't even know where she was, or if she was alive or anything. But, I think that's how my brother got, she got in touch with my brother. Or through the archive, I don't know which was which, but we were, (...) my husband and I were in Canada. And my brother got a letter from my sister. And I usually call home about once or twice a week. And, then my daughter says, "You got a letter from your brother and he wrote and said that he finally got in contact with our sister." And I was just flabbergasted.

MA: Was that the first contact you had seen from her?

NM: Uh-huh. And then so my brother started writing about her life here in the United States, and she didn't know her name was Joyce. And write about our mother and our time together, what little time we had together.

MA: So it seems like your, I don't know if they deliberately did this but there was sort of an effort to, like your stepfather's relatives didn't want you to contact her, and there was sort of this divide.

NM: Yes, because I don't think my grandparents didn't like, well didn't really care for our stepfather.

MA: Oh, I see.

NM: And then so, once my mother passed away, well my stepfather decided well, break all ties, I guess.

<Begin Segment 13>

MA: So going back to your time in Fort Lupton, you were living with your aunt and uncle. What were they doing out in Colorado?

NM: Well, my aunt is a baishakunin marriage.

MA: Arranged.

NM: Yeah. And she married someone from Colorado.

MA: And then they moved to Fort Lupton.

NM. Uh-huh, and farmed.

MA: So after Pearl Harbor happened, you were eleven, you were pretty young. Was there any talk of you going back to the West Coast? Did you try to go back? Or were you pretty much going to stay in Fort Lupton?

NM: Yeah, I was going to stay in Fort Lupton, but eventually, I moved back to Denver with my grandparents.

MA: But there was never any talk of you going, like you said your aunt had traveled back to the West Coast. There was never any talk of you?

NM: What happened was there was only room for one person, my aunt had one ticket to go back. And she had to send for her birth certificate in order to go back. And I don't understand that either, because traveling, I thought was restricted. So, I don't know how she got back.

MA: So somehow she got back to --

NM: Santa Monica.

MA: -- Santa Monica.

NM: And then shortly after that, my grandparents and my two aunts and one of the baby cousins came on the train. And they could only carry what they could carry. So my two aunts had to share one little suitcase with all their belongings.

MA: What happened to your grandparents' home and everything that they, their possessions?

NM: I don't know. See, when my uncle was the last one to leave the house, and he just shut the door and came, left, everything was left behind. And I think my grandfather before he left, he buried a lot of stuff under the house. 'Cause the house, I guess, sat on stilts in Santa Monica. And I guess it's still there, or it's disintegrated, I don't know. Yeah, but they lost everything. I remember I had dolls for Girls Day and kimonos and all that, and I don't know what happened to 'em.

MA: Yeah, everything was gone. So was there in Fort Lupton specifically after Pearl Harbor, any sort of, did you feel any tension in Fort Lupton, or any sense of like discrimination or prejudice against the community?

NM: I don't remember.

MA: So in school, you didn't really feel any change?

NM: No. I was just shy anyways, so I wasn't a very outgoing person. [Laughs] No, but like I was telling my oldest, well, my son, and he said that when he was going to school, he had a lot of prejudice. People calling him the J-word and all that. Surprisingly.

MA: And that was in the '50s?

NM: Oh, let's see...

MA: Or '60s.

NM: Yeah, '60. Grade school and middle school. And he just told me this the other day, and I didn't realize that they had problems.

<Begin Segment 14>

MA: So in Fort Lupton then, you lived there on your aunt and uncle's farm for five years you said. And you said you worked on the farm every day. Did you have, like, migrant workers who helped you and who maybe lived on the farm during harvest season?

NM: No, they lived in a house and then they were trucked in, mostly Hispanics. But we did a lot of our work too, picking, pickles and tomatoes and beans and sugar beets, of course, was the latest, the last thing of the season. But in the spring, we had to get up at 3 o'clock in the morning to harvest the lettuce and spinach, because you don't want them to wilt in the sun. And have to take it to market early in the morning. Yeah, I remember getting up 3 o'clock in the morning.

MA: And so your uncle, or whoever, would take the vegetables to the market. What was the market like? Was it a public market in Fort Lupton?

NM: No, I think he had to take it to Denver. He had to travel to Denver from Fort Lupton, which is, how many miles is it? Thirty miles or something like that?

MA: So would he do this every day? He would drive the vegetables?

NM: Oh, we had, yeah, whenever we picked our products. But going back, I remember when my grandfather first came out here, and I guess to make a living they had to start out with whatever they can. And he used to raise vegetables and he would take it in a cart to the market. And some of these people would turn his cart over and scatter all the vegetables and fruit. And my grandfather, he didn't say a word and just picked it up and salvaged what he could. This is even before the war.

MA: Do you think they did that because he was Japanese?

NM: Yes.

MA: Did you, when you were living in Fort Lupton, did you travel to Denver ever with your uncle?

NM: Just for doctor's appointments.

MA: So you wouldn't go with him to the market.

NM: No, no.

MA: But you would occasionally go to Denver?

NM: Yeah, and at that time, my grandparents moved to Denver from my aunt's farm. 'Cause when they came out to Colorado, they all stayed at my aunt's farm. And they had a little house behind their house. So they were able to all stay there, all the relatives.

MA: So they all stayed on this one farm. And when did they move to Denver?

NM: I think shortly after that. Because they never farmed. They just stayed there, so eventually, well, at first they moved to the town of Fort Lupton. And my brother went along to there, and I stayed behind. And, supposedly they were supposed to adopt me but something happened.

MA: Your aunt and uncle were supposed to adopt you?

NM: Right. That's what I heard, but that's all heresay.

<Begin Segment 15>

MA: So your grandparents moved, you said, into the town of Fort Lupton.

NM: First.

MA: What was the town like? Fort Lupton?

NM: It was a small community. And I don't know what they did there, I really don't know. I think they lived there, just a brief time and then they moved to Denver. And my grandfather did gardening and worked at the Denver Country Club, golf course, keep it mowed and stuff. And the flower gardens and all that.

MA: Was there like a Japantown in Fort Lupton? Was there like a collection of restaurants or shops?

NM: Not that I know. No. Church is the only thing I remember.

MA: The Buddhist church?

NM: And I think -- Konishi, well, Gladys -- she would probably know more, because they lived there. They had a big family.

MA: Did you ever sense, during your time in Fort Lupton, that there was any strange feelings between the people who'd been there for a long time, the Japanese Americans who'd been in Fort Lupton for a long time, and then the people who were coming in during the war?

NM: No, because, I think it's because my aunt and uncle were there. Otherwise, there may have been really. And then, well, when I say my aunt and uncle, it's my aunt's husband. You know, uncle. And he had a brother in Henderson. So they were all farmers from way back.

MA: But you think if they, if you hadn't had that connection with your uncle, that maybe it would have been a little more different.

NM: It may have been difficult.

MA: Did you ever hear about anything? Any sort of community tensions like that? Think maybe friends or family that...

NM: No, I don't remember really.

MA: So what was your, was your brother living with you in Fort Lupton during that time as well? He came over with your grandparents.

NM: Yeah, no, he lived with us briefly. He lived on the farm briefly, but then moved to Fort Lupton and then into Denver. So we actually haven't been together that long from childhood, the three of us. We were always separated.

MA: Yeah, it seems like you especially moved around a lot from --

NM: Oh, yes.

MA: -- everywhere, you know. Sacramento to L.A. to Fort Lupton to Denver. How was that for you as child, I mean, moving around so much?

NM: Well, you know, I think it affected me in a way that I didn't want to possess anything. I kept giving things away, I didn't want to hold on to anything. 'Cause every time I move, I think, "Well, I can't take that with me." So, I don't like to possess anything, actually. Just what I need.

MA: Yeah, yeah.

<Begin Segment 16>

MA: So let's talk a little bit about... so you're in Fort Lupton for several years. And you said you started high school in Fort Lupton. And the high school, what high school was that again?

NM: Fort Lupton High School.

MA: Fort Lupton High School. What were your experiences like in Fort Lupton High School? You know, your two years there.

NM: It was okay. And I got good grades because you have this competition among the Japanese, you have to do good. [Laughs] And, yeah, I had close friends, and we had a good time, except we didn't socialize after school.

MA: Were you still being bussed in?

NM: Uh-huh.

MA: At Fort Lupton High School, was it mostly white students and Nisei students? Or was there more, were there also Hispanic students that attended that high school?

NM: Uh, very few. There was. But mostly Caucasians. And then the Japanese well, at lunchtime, this family that moved into the town of Fort Lupton, we used to go there for lunch. And they were good friends, too, I mean, we made good friends. Yeah, I remember that. But they eventually moved back to the coast.

MA: So I imagine then, during that time, you saw a lot of people move in and then back. Do you remember that, like, the Japanese American community must have been kind of shifting a lot.

NM: In, yes, in Denver it was, the Japanese town was just booming. And then eventually, most of them went back. My uncle had a studio in, in the Japanese town called Yamakishi Studio. And he, before the war broke out, he was a photographer for MGM.

MA: In Los Angeles?

NM: Uh-huh. That's why, when he came out here he eventually opened a photo shop, and did very well.

MA: Who were his customers? Mostly Japanese American families?

NM: Yes, that I know, yes. And there was a lot of them at that time because they were all, a lot of them came from camp to Denver. And a lot of my friends were from Sacramento area. The ones I went to school in Denver, Manual High School. Yeah, and most of them are still here. But they, all of them were born in Sacramento.

MA: What about your family? So did your, it sounds like a bunch of your family came over to Colorado, did most people end up staying, or leaving after the war?

NM: My oldest uncle went back. His family, and when they went back, there was no place to stay, so they stayed in a tent city, they call it. I guess they pitched tents and lived there until they could find a place.

MA: Was that in California?

NM: Uh-huh. In the L.A. area.

MA: Was there ever any talk about like you shouldn't, that people shouldn't go back to the West Coast? Was there a fear of going back to the West Coast that you recall among your family at all?

NM: No, I don't know why they didn't go back. I know my aunt said they liked Colorado, so... but I think there was a fear, because there was still a lot of who knows, problems going on. And I think that was the reason why they stayed here, too, and they were afraid to move back.

<Begin Segment 17>

MA: Okay, so we're back. I wanted to talk with you about your move to Denver and what that was like. So you moved to Denver when you were in your third year of high school?

NM: Yes. This was 1946.

MA: 1946. And why did you move from Fort Lupton to Denver?

NM: I guess they didn't want me anymore. [Laughs]

MA: And you moved in with your grandparents.

NM: Uh-huh.

MA: So they had moved to Denver just for better job opportunities.

NM: Yes.

MA: What were your impressions of Denver when you, when you first arrived and started going to high school there?

NM: Actually, I wanted to go back to Fort Lupton.

MA: What was it about Denver that sort of--

NM: Well, it was strange to me, just new to me. But then I got used to it. And, and I think the hardest part was making new friends.

MA: Yeah, I guess that's because you're entering a school where you didn't know anyone.

NM: Yeah, and they all have their group. And so, a couple of them were real friendly, but one in particular, we got to be real good friends. But after graduation, everybody was my friend.

MA: So you were able to make friends very easily then.

NM: Yeah, at first I was too shy. Because they all had their groups.

MA: So where did your grandparents live in Denver?

NM: They lived in, on Champa Street. I know you wouldn't know where that is, but it's right in town.

MA: Was it right near the Japantown area?

NM: Not, not that close. Yeah, you still have to drive.

MA: Were there many Japanese Americans who lived in your grandparents' area?

NM: Yes. And my uncle purchased a house on Champa Street and had a lot of Japanese in that area, mostly from the West Coast.

MA: People who had come from camp and then --

NM: Yeah, they bought the hotels, and apartment houses, and so forth.

MA: Did you go into Japantown often, or the Nihonmachi?

NM: No. Right after high school, I didn't drive, so I'd take the bus to go into town to get my hair done and made friends with people that came from Colorado farms and all that, and we got to be real good friends. And then, right after high school, I started working at the drugstore. It's called TK Pharmacy, owned by the Terasaki Brothers.

MA: And what was that pharmacy like? Was it --

NM: It was booming. It was really a busy, busy place. And I worked behind the fountain and eventually cashier. And then, one of the brothers had a brother-in-law that just got out of dental school. So he wanted me to come to work for him. So I eventually started out as a dental assistant and I went to school to get certified. And after that, I worked for thirty-five years as a certified dental assistant.

<Begin Segment 18>

MA: So going back to your high school, what were your, did you have any, what were your sort of goals or hopes for the future? Do you remember at that time what you were thinking about your future?

NM: I wanted to be a nurse. But going to the high school in town, I got kind of lazy with my studies. In my yearbook, they had me on the honor list, and I can't say why. [Laughs]

MA: Was it going to school in Denver, you sort of... the transition, it seemed hard for you. So was it maybe that?

NM: Yeah, the teachers weren't as strict as on the farm, on a small town. In Fort Lupton, I really studied hard and got As and then I came to town and got Cs, and I even got a D in typing. [Laughs]

MA: I bet your school was probably much larger than the one in Fort Lupton.

NM: Oh, yes. And the school had a lot of African Americans and Hispanics and Caucasians and Japanese when I was going. It was very, what do you call?

MA: Like multiracial?

NM: Yeah, right.

MA: Did the racial groups interact very much socially? Or did each group sort of stick together on its own? What was the social dynamic like in your high school?

NM: As I remember, I think we all stuck together. Our own group, our own kind, I should say.

MA: What sorts of things in high school did you do, like social activities with your friends?

NM: I didn't do any. I had one friend that we used to, on our free time, we used to go play tennis and take our tennis racket and then we didn't play tennis, we just sat on the tennis court and talked. No, I came straight home. And then I think I worked, 'cause my grandparents really couldn't afford to really fully support me. So I worked.

<Begin Segment 19>

MA: And at that point, your grandfather was working you said in --

NM: Gardening.

MA: Gardening, and the country club? Was your grandmother working?

NM: No, she never did work. She always stayed home.

MA: Did you speak Japanese or English with them during that time?

NM: It was really hard to communicate, because I lost, I didn't know hardly any Japanese. So it was really hard to speak to them. Very hard. 'Cause my aunt and uncle, they're all Niseis and they speak English. So I understood more than I could speak. That was hard.

MA: And your grandparents would only communicate in Japanese?

NM: Right. Although my grandfather got his citizenship in, what year was it that they got it? 1954 was it?

MA: Or something like that. '50s.

NM: In the '50s.

MA: So your grandfather got his citizenship. Did your grandmother try for her citizenship?

NM: I think she tried, but she didn't make it.

MA: So you were in Denver during the, you said 1946 was when you moved. Did you notice a big change when the Japanese started moving back to the West Coast? Especially at Denver, it seemed like there was a vibrant community and, you know, what was that like, you know, when people started moving back?

NM: It seemed like, how should I say it, like some of our parts, our life was missing. It got a little lonely. And of course, after we got married, we moved to an area that was just hardly any Japanese. And because we didn't belong to the Japanese church, churches, well, so we didn't do very many things as far as Japanese.

MA: What area was this that you moved to?

NM: The east side. But then, where we were, there wasn't any Japanese. And my kids went to Presbyterian school, Methodist and Presbyterian, and then they married, they all married Caucasians.

<Begin Segment 20>

MA: Let's talk then about, you graduated from high school in 1948. And that was a time when you work in the pharmacy, after that. When did you meet your husband?

NM: Let's see, right after he came back from Germany. And, I guess he used to come into the drugstore all the time and sit and have root beer or whatever. But I went to school with his two sisters, his two younger sisters. But I didn't make the connection. [Laughs]

MA: So how did you eventually meet, you two?

NM: Well, he came, he was coming to the drugstore off and on. And then one day, he said, "You wanna go to a movie?" And so I said, "Okay." I wasn't very interested in going out, at all. I was more interested in going to Obon practice and, and doing Japanese dancing and all that. Classical dancing, I took lessons. So I was more into that, and going out with my girlfriends.

MA: What would you do when you went out with your girlfriends? Did you go to the movies?

NM: Oh, we went everywhere. To the park, to Elitches, to the movies. And, and they had their brothers too, and they would come along, and we had a good time. We would just walk around and then when we got married, it just kind of went our own way.

MA: And when did you, when did you get married?

NM: 1950. December.

MA: And at that point, you moved out to the east side, you said to the east side.

NM: No, we lived in an apartment not too far from where I lived. But, when we got married, my side didn't approve it, so they didn't speak to me for a whole year. I said this is going to be hurting someone. [Laughs]

MA: Why didn't they approve of the marriage?

NM: I don't know. They thought I was just too young, I guess. And my brother was in the service. He was in the Korean War, he was gone. My uncle was in the Korean War, he was gone. So I was at the house, kind of supporting the grandparents and all that.

MA: And so your brother, when did he enter the army? Was it right after World War II?

NM: No, when the Korean War broke out, I think. And, see he, he was gonna go, they were gonna join the service, my cousin that got killed in the Korean War, they were gonna join at the same time. But my brother decided, well, he better stay and help the family, so he didn't go. But I think he must, I don't know if he was drafted, or if he enlisted.

MA: Did he talk to you about his experiences in the war?

NM: No, he went to Germany. See, my cousin went to Korea. And he went to Germany.

MA: So your brother spent his time --

NM: In Germany, right. Forgot about that. And naturally there was no war going on over there, right. I guess a lot of U.S. servicemen were stationed in different countries.

<Begin Segment 21>

MA: And you were saying that you worked as a dental assistant. How long did you, did you have that job? Was it your whole career?

NM: Yes, for thirty-five years. I retired in 1990.

MA: What made you go on that path?

NM: Well, I was working at the drugstore. You know the Terasaki Brothers, their brother-in-law, Dr. Kawano just got out of dental school and was practicing. And his wife was helping out as a receptionist and assistant. And she was a pharmacist also, besides the three brothers that worked at the TK Pharmacy. And Dr. Kawano says, "Would you ask Nancy if she wants to come to work with, you know." And one of the brothers said, asked me, and I said, "Oh, I don't know." But eventually I did, and that's how I got started. And let's see, I worked for him for twenty-two years. And then I decided I wanted to work somewhere else. So I went to work for this very nice hakujin doctor who was very nice. Very, very nice. I was lucky. And I worked with him until I retired.

MA: Your first dental job, what was the dentist's name that you worked with?

NM: Dr. Kawano.

MA: Dr. Kawano. Did you work mostly with Japanese American patients? Like in the community?

NM: No. We had, I think, eighty-five percent was, no, I should say, eighty percent was Jewish. Because he lived in a Jewish community.

MA: That's interesting.

NM: So they call him a Jewish-Japanese. We had a lot of Jewish patients. And we had a lot of Italian patients and a few Japanese. Yeah, that was interesting.

MA: That's really interesting. Were there separate, so there's like a Jewish neighborhood, an Italian neighborhood?

NM: Mostly Jewish neighborhood. They all lived in a close area, because like on Saturdays, they weren't able to drive. So in order to go to church they had to walk. So they, they all kinda lived around the synagogue, or whatever, yeah. And that's where he built his house.

<Begin Segment 22>

MA: Were there, I'm curious about the Japanese American community in Denver. Were there any housing segregation that you recall in like the '50s and early '60s? Where Japanese Americans couldn't live in certain areas? Was there any of that in Denver or surrounding areas?

NM: Oh, there might have been. Because, it seemed like the Japanese kind of grouped around one area. I know this one friend of mine, we went to school together. She and her friends were going to go to Elitches or Lakeside and then they saw a sign that says, "No J's allowed." And I don't know if this was, I don't know if it was during, no it couldn't be during the war. It was right after the war, I think. That's what she told me. I never knew that.

MA: They saw signs, like in the stores or something?

NM: No, right on the entrance of the , you know, Elitches is a, where you have rides and stuff.

MA: Right. So there was, it seems like there was some of that.

NM: Uh-huh. But I never came across it.

MA: And, so after, you said you worked with a Caucasian doctor, or dentist, I'm sorry. And you had a really great experience working there.

NM: There was only one incident, and he was a regular customer, a patient. And he was really nice, but he kinda said, "I think it was a good idea they put all the Japanese in the, in the, I mean, it was a good idea to incarcerate all the Japanese." I didn't answer him.

MA: Oh, he said that to you.

NM: Uh-huh, he said that to me. But that was the only thing that I remember. And when I went to work for these Caucasian doctor, there was the head doctor and he liked Japanese. While they were going to dental school in, I think Kansas City, he befriended the Ito brothers, who all became dentists. But he, he, and then he had taken in a new dental graduate to work in his office, and that's how I got hired, too, I think.

<Begin Segment 23>

MA: And you had three children. Can you tell me their names and when they were born?

NM: Carol was born October 7, 1951. Alan was born April 19, 1953. And Joyce was born October 7, 1956. They were born the same day, they were all born on a Sunday.

MA: Oh, really? As your kids were growing up, did you speak Japanese with them, or like any Japanese traditions that --

NM: No, no we didn't. We all had, the neighbor was all Caucasian so they had Caucasian friends. And some of them were from German background, and all that. So they were good friends, like when, when they play war, they said, "We're good friends with you because we were Germans, and you were Japanese and all that." We're still good friends. In fact, we're going to see one of them this weekend in Wyoming.

MA: And you have some grandchildren as well.

NM: Uh-huh, I have four. Three girls which are sisters (...). And then my oldest daughter has Matthew.

MA: And did your children stay around Denver, the Denver area?

NM: Well, Carol moved to San Francisco for a while and then she came back.

MA: So I'm curious about your sister again. I wanted to talk with her, or talk about her. And can you talk about meeting her for the first time and the circumstances about getting together with her? And what that reunion was like?

NM: Oh, we never met yet.

MA: Oh, you never met.

NM: Kara did. But we've never met.

MA: Oh, but you've tried to meet over the years.

NM: Oh, I think we tried three times. And each time, I was so excited and then something happened and it was really disappointing.

MA: And have you been able to keep in touch with her over the years?

NM: Just on birthdays and Christmas. But she would write to Kara, because they met in Osaka. So she really likes Kara, or something like that. She feels close to Kara.

MA: Did she talk about, at all, to Kara or to your brother, or to you, about what it was like for her after the war and growing up in those circumstances?

NM: Well, like I told you, when they first landed in Japan, she had to sit on the hard cement while her father went scrounging for food. And during that time, until my stepfather got married, I don't know what really happened. Except, when she first started school, the kids would tease her because she was older and bigger and they'd throw plums at her and all that. She, I don't know how she felt, but I could just imagine. And then when she got older, I think she, she must have found out that she had a brother and a sister and aunts and uncles and cousins and so forth.

<Begin Segment 24>

MA: And can you talk a little bit about the quilt project that you worked on?

NM: Well, this Japanese, what is it, the quilt thing. It was all volunteer. But they wanted the woman's life in Colorado. And so, Carol, my oldest daughter decided, well, she volunteered me actually. And then we decided to make this quilt with my sister and myself. And we really worked hard on it. And my husband designed the whole thing, and we made it up. And I guess it was displayed at an art museum here in Denver and this reporter saw it and so she called. And we did our interview, it came out in the paper. [Laughs]

MA: And the part that you did was, it was like a piece of a larger quilt?

NM: No, it was a hanging quilt. Everybody did a block, and there was six on each block. So it was actually, let's see, twelve by twelve maybe.

MA: And your, 'cause I saw the article earlier. And your portion of it shows you and your sister, sort of reuniting in a way, but also on your separate, it shows her on Mt. Fuji and you next to the mountains in Colorado. So, I thought that was really nice.

NM: Yeah, and then we did send a picture. My brother did, I didn't. And I don't know what she thought of it, though.

MA: So, I just wanted to know if you had any thoughts you wanted to share, or reflections maybe that you wanted to say in closing?

NM: About my life?

MA: Yeah, about anything.

NM: About anything? Let's see. I did. Sometime my mind goes blank.

MA: That's okay. Or about your life, or any, any sort of thoughts about the Japanese American community in Denver.

NM: Well, we didn't do much with the Japanese American community. I think Carol does more than what I did. I always had Caucasian friends after we got married. And my neighbor came from Michigan, Upper Peninsula. And they were going to move to, out west, or towards the west anyway, and he came across Denver and he decided to settle here. And then so, that house next to us was for rent, so he decided well, it was near the Colorado Women's College, so he decided well, he'll rent that place. They eventually bought it. But he calls his wife and says, "Joan, I found a house. But there's some, I think Japanese family living next door. I don't know what you think of it." Because back in Escanaba they never had it. They don't have Japanese. And Joan was telling Tom, "Well, I don't know." But eventually they moved here. And we became best friends. And I would go back to Escanaba and visit her. 'Cause she had to move back because her husband was killed in a plane crash. So she eventually moved back, and that was my lonely time too, because every night we used to have coffee together. And on weekend, we did everything together.

MA: So you created a strong friendship.

NM: Oh, yes. And then when I went back to Escanaba for the first time, she had the whole, it's a small community, she had all her friends lined up at the airport to greet me. [Laughs] I think it was because they'd never seen a Japanese before. [Laughs] But they were are so well, they treated me well, they invited me for luncheon. Each one of her friends. And really had a good time. But we travel, my husband and I travel a lot from the West Coast to the East Coast. And Canada, Alaska. And every winter, up until the last two winters we'd go south for about three months. Where's it's nice and we're warm, and it's so tropical weather there.

MA: Yeah, that's great, you're able to travel.

NM: But then since then, we sold our RV. So we haven't been traveling a lot. Taking care of my, of our two great-grandkids.

MA: I bet that's a handful.

NM: It is. It really is. But I enjoy them.

MA: Well, great. I guess that's it. So thank you very much for coming out here to do an interview and sharing all of your stories with us.

NM: I hope it was a good story.

MA: Yes, it was great. So thank you.

NM: You're welcome.