<Begin Segment 26>

TI: I only have a few minutes left, unfortunately, and so as a final question, I know that you've been living in Italy for a while, and so you're able to look at the United States from probably a different perspective than Americans who live in the States. And in listening the last few hours about your life and all the different things, I think you have a very, perhaps, interesting perspective in terms of sharing in terms of, when you look at the United States now and where we are how, do you assess what we're going through right now? Is this something -- 'cause you've watched the United States go through war during World War II, you talked about the McCarthy era, you saw the civil rights movement, you've worked with men like Norman Thomas. How do you assess what the United States is going through now?

JI: Well, you know, Norman Thomas, before he died, wrote a column called, "What's Right With America," and listed all the things that had happened, the civil rights legislation and so forth. And he couldn't write that column now. He would be so depressed, so disillusioned about what's happened. And one of the things that's happened in Europe at least, is the credibility of the U.S. is zilch, and not just in Italy, but throughout western Europe. I know that Sarkozy is trying to mend fences and all that, and yet his people, I don't think, find much credibility among, in the United States. I've always, when people ask me if we're coming back, and I said, "Well, eventually. America is my country, United States is my country, but I'm not proud of America. I'm ashamed of the kind of government we have." So I can't say I'm proud of, to be American. I'm not proud to be American. I am an American, but it's not with a sense of pride I have. And in a way, it's a copout because I contribute nothing to, except vote every four years or whatever, but I haven't contributed anything. We have all kinds of friends who are in the United States who are doing very important volunteer work for --

TI: But Joe, so the, I'm trying to get a sense, so you're less proud of the United States now than when it was a country that put Japanese Americans and Japanese in camps, that there was this racial divide up and through even now, but especially before the civil rights movement, and even the McCarthy era. So you've seen those, and even living through that, you think now, perhaps, is worse?

JI: Well, I think part of it is because I thought you could mend it. And this administration has, has trashed the country so much that it's going to be very hard to repair it, and I know the candidates always talking about being able to fix it and all, and I hope they succeed, whoever is elected succeeds. But I think it's, it's going to take a long time. The, how a country can be trashed so thoroughly in eight years is beyond me. The fact that after the initial four years, that they would return a, the "Destroyer" to continue his work is beyond me. I have, I used to have faith in the Congress, but Congress has lost its opportunity to try to counter. They've let this administration take away their rights, they seized the rights to the courts, I mean, it's not a, it's not a tripartite government with equal power.

TI: So the checks and balances are no longer in place. I'm sorry, one last question. In terms of, I never asked this, but you and your wife, children... tell me just the names of your children and what they're currently doing.

JI: Okay, our oldest son is named Bruce, Bruce Allen Ishikawa, and he lives in (Marlborough), Vermont -- not Vermont, Massachusetts, and he's working for (Boze) there, doing computer work, I guess. And second son is Jesse Ichikawa, who's in Madison, Wisconsin, and he's been working with a law firm ever since, after, beginning in L.A. He felt like a Midwesterner and wanted to return to Wisconsin. So he's there, and this year they've asked him to teach at the University of Wisconsin Law School as well, so he'll be doing that as well. And then Chiyo Ishikawa is our third child, and she's in Seattle, and she's deputy director for the art, for arts at the Seattle Art Museum, and is a curator of European art. And then Kimi Ishikawa, who was the first Seattleite in our family, came here to work for Bolt, Baranek & Newman, found that it was too stressful to work for a software company and went back to get a Master's in teaching, and is teaching in Madison, Wisconsin, too. Again, she felt, A, that Seattle was getting too expensive for her to live and raise a child and so she moved back to Madison. Also, she felt like a Midwesterner. And then Ross Ishikawa is, is an architect who is working in Seattle with a friend of his. So there you are, our five children, and we have, I guess, thirteen grandchildren.

TI: I won't have you mention all those, 'cause you won't get all the names, right? [Laughs]

JI: Not all of them, grandchildren, but we love them the same.

TI: Well, I just want to thank you so much for spending the morning with me. It was an incredible story, and thank you so much for your time.

JI: Well, thank you for asking me. I don't know that I've added anything to your library, but I appreciate the opportunity.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright © 2008 Densho. All Rights Reserved.