<Begin Segment 21>

JI: Well, I had a lot of other experiences with that. But we, the best thing about it is we had different people talk to us: George Buttrick, who was one of the leading churchmen from, from, Presbyterian churchman from biggest church in, Presbyterian church in New York. And then the president of the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is a conservative seminary, named (Finkelstein), met with him and Harry Emerson Fosdick, who was president, or minister at Riverside Church in New York. He, it was a Baptist church, and he was not a Baptist, but John D. Rockefeller created Riverside Church. And when he asked Fosdick to take the church, Fosdick said, said, "No, I don't want to come and be the minister at John D. Rockefeller's church." And so Rockefeller promised not to interfere in his doings, and he really made it into kind of an interdenominational church, which it still is today. They have, the last time we were there, they had a black minister.

TI: And what was the name of that church again?

JI: Riverside.

TI: Riverside, okay.

JI: It's very close to Grant's Tomb, as I recall. Well, anyway, he was one of the speakers, and there was a guy named Benjamin Davis, who was a city councilman who was a communist, and then, of course, Norman Thomas, and that's when I became a socialist, I guess.

TI: And that was based on listening to his, to him speak?

JI: Yeah, and he seemed to be a completely rational person. Benjamin Davis was ranting and raving, and there was a guy named Mark Antonio, who was a congressman who sounded just like Hitler when he would... he was a communist congressman from New York who shouted and screamed. And it was interesting because earlier, they had tried to have a United Front of Leftist Parties, and they had a big rally at Madison Square Garden. And when Norman Thomas was introduced, they booed and catcalled so much. He finally quieted them down and said, "Well, you've just demonstrated why we can't have a united front. You won't work with anybody," and he sat down. And he was very quick on his feet, and could say it with humor, but -- not just rancor. But he saw the impossibility of the situation. And I know when we were passing out leaflets at Union Square, where a lot of radical groups gather, some communist worker came over and took mine and just tore them all up.

TI: So Norman Thomas was viewed by the communists as being not left enough, not...

JI: Well, the communists were not left, communists are fascists, at least the American Communist Party, and so was the Russian Communist Party. They're not communists -- they're not communists in the classical socialist sense, because socialism believes in equality of everybody, and communism generally believes in an elite force of party members.

TI: So when you think back to Norman Thomas and his viewpoints, what were, can you recall some of the ideas, the ideas or concepts that he talked about that really got you excited?

JI: Yeah, well, some of the things that the communists had, too, is that from each, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. In other words, we'll help the needy, and cooperativeness, I guess. He was not a Marxist, he was probably closer to Fabian socialists, Fabians from, from England who were not Marxists, but they believed in cooperation, essentially, and believed in looking out for the other person. If you were able to, that you were responsible for the other person. And I guess that's the essential sort of thing. And I began meeting with what they called the Young People's Socialist League. It was funny because Johnny, my brother, was in New York at the time, and I would go and visit him. And Johnny was a very conservative person, he was a member of the Republican party. [Laughs]

TI: So the two of you probably got into some interesting discussions.

JI: Yeah, we'd get into big arguments, but he still felt protective of me as being a big brother, and he was always a great big brother to me. But anyway, when I'd go to the Young People's Socialist meetings, they, they would ask me, "How come you're a socialist?" And I said, "Well, I guess mostly because I'm a Christian." And I felt a Christian even though I was fighting with the church all the time, too, and I wasn't really observant Christian, but I felt that I was a Christian, and my ideals were Christian. So I said, "I guess because I'm Christian," and it brought the whole house down. And after, I looked around and I realized these were all Jews. [Laughs] But we had, became very friendly with several of them.

TI: Did the topic of what was happening to Japanese Americans at this time ever come up during these meetings?

JI: No, except I had a very good friend named Irwin Suall, Irwin Suall, who became very high in the hierarchy of Jewry. He was head of the (Anti Defamation League of the B'nai Brith), he was head of United Jewish Appeal one year and all that. And he tried to get me to go with him to form a kibbutz in Israel, and I said, "I can't go there, it's going to be a theocracy." This was before, before Israel was a state yet. But the Balfour Declaration was in the works, and it looked like it was going to happen. And I said, "Besides, I, Hebrew will be a language, and I don't want to learn another language now." And he said, "Oh, no, it's going to be English, and it's going to be a socialist state. It's not gonna be a theocracy." And I said, "Forget it." And years later, I found him in the phone book and called him up there, "Did you ever get to Israel?" He says, "Never." [Laughs] He wanted to go yet, but he said, "Never," because of his association with UJA and all. But he was, he took to me, he says, because he felt that I had suffered the same kind of persecution that Jews had. And Jews are so quarrelsome among themselves, I went to a thing when they were having a lecture on... what do they call it? Where, about the Jewish state.

TI: Oh, right, I'm blanking out, too.

JI: Well, anyway, they... (Narr. note: As a matter of fact it was supposed to be a debate with a couple of guys from what was to become Israel who were touring the country lecturing, a USA Zionist who thought it should be done one way and another who thought it should be done another and Bertram Wolfe, the author and art critic who was an anti-Zionist. The moderator got cold feet and didn't show and stupidly Wolfe was persuaded to act as moderator. All hell broke loose, the audience joined in, chairs were thrown and I wasn't sure I'd get out in one piece. A volatile issue among excitable people.)

TI: But I wanted to get back, so did the people that would go to these Young Socialist meetings, although you didn't, the topic didn't come up, do you they were aware of what was happening to Japanese Americans on the West Coast?

JI: It's possible, because The Call, which was the national newspaper, the Socialist party, was very indignant about it, and so I'm sure that...

TI: It seems a little surprising to me that having you in their presence, it didn't come up that they were curious and asked you about it.

JI: No, they didn't.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2008 Densho. All Rights Reserved.