Densho Digital Archive
Densho Visual History Collection
Title: Lucius Horiuchi Interview I
Narrator: Lucius Horiuchi
Interviewer: Tom Ikeda
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Date: November 6, 2007
Densho ID: denshovh-hlucius-01
Japanese translation of complete interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So today is November 6, 2007. We're in Las Vegas for the Minidoka Reunion, the 2007 Minidoka Reunion, we're at the Golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas, and on camera we have Dana Hoshide, and then I'm Tom Ikeda, the executive director of Densho doing the interview. And so I'm going to start off with sort of the beginning, and just ask you, what was the full name given to you at birth?

LH: At birth, Lucius Hiraku Horiuchi.

TI: Now, "Lucius" is an interesting name. How did you get the name Lucius?

LH: Well, when I was born at five o'clock in the morning on July 22, 1928, my grandfather was -- I'm sorry, my father was off hunting with the imperial household medical doctor, who was visiting Seattle at the time. And when they learned that I was born at five in the morning, he decided, in consultation with my father, that light, five o'clock in the morning, Hiraku and Lucius would be a good combination. And Lucius does also mean, besides "light," it means, like hiraku. I think my father was quite civic-minded, and remembered that the Father of Democracy in Rome was named Lucius. But actually, there are a number of emperors and actually manservants also mentioned in Shakespeare named Lucius, but that's how I got the name.

TI: How interesting. So 1928 you were born, where were you born?

LH: In Seattle.

TI: And do you recall, or has anyone told you, were you born in a hospital?

LH: Oh, no, I was born in the house that my father owned in, near Lake Washington, and it's very interesting, my uncle, the famous artist, Paul Horiuchi, was living with us at the time I was born. And if you know anything about Paul Horiuchi, also true name Chikamasa, the day after I was born is when the Suda family had their accident of most of the family dying in a ferryboat accident. And he, Paul Chikamasa married Bernadette Suda.

TI: So her family, so essentially your, your aunt, her family was -- and I'm not familiar with the --

LH: Oh, you're not familiar with that. It was in 1928, July 23rd. The father, the Suda family, the mother, father, several children, they went on to the ferry and the car didn't stop, and broke through the chain. And all the members of the family died except Bernadette, I think was -- not think, I know she's fifteen years older than I am, and still in excellent health in Seattle. I just saw her because my oldest sister Lillian, she died and I went up to give one of the eulogies. Her husband, John Ishii, was the first lay president of Saint Martin's University. And I think he may have been the first higher education president in the country, a Nikkei. But...

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: Let's go back to your, your father. Tell me a little bit about your father in terms of where he was born and how he came to the United States.

LH: Yes. Actually, my grandfather, Tokutaro Horiuchi, came to Seattle, I think it was 1908, I'm not sure of the year. I'm researching that now. And he had a silk company, and he was a trader, and lived in Seattle. And two or three years later, my father joined him in Seattle. And that's why I jokingly call myself a Nisei-han, two and a half. Because to be a third, my father would have had to have been born in America. But since my grandfather first came to Seattle, I call myself a Nisei-han.

TI: And what was your father's name?

LH: My father was Shigetoshi. And in fact, Mark Horiuchi, who's not famous but getting there, he's a professor, and he's a board member of the Bellevue Art Museum, and was once president of the Art Association of the State of Washington, his middle name is Shigetoshi. So the family, the Horiuchi Shigetoshi name continues.

TI: That's good. Let's talk a little bit about your mother. What's her name and how did she come?

LH: My mother's name was Takeko Miyagawa, and she came from Shizuoka-ken. That's right, my grandfather and father came from Yamanashi-ken. My mother's family were also in the silk business, and my father had come, I told you, to join my grandfather, and then my father went back to Japan in 1917 to marry my mother. She had waited over ten years, and the family were anxious for her to get married, so set up marriage meetings, which she refused to attend. 'Cause she had known that Shigetoshi would come back, and he did, and they were married in Japan in 1917, and returned to Seattle. And the interesting aspect of all of this is my grandfather Tokutaro, in his second marriage, married the oldest of the Miyagawa six daughters, and my father married the youngest. [Laughs]

TI: So they were brother-in-laws, I guess. [Laughs] That's interesting. And so it sounds like your parents, it was a marriage of love. I mean...

LH: Oh yes, oh yes. Like I say, they knew each other well from the time my father was a child, when my grandfather remarried and called my mother Neesan. [Laughs]

TI: Now, you mentioned both families were in the silk business.

LH: Yes.

TI: What, what kind of silk business would be in Seattle? What were they doing, why would there be a silk business in Seattle?

LH: Well, I'm not familiar with the details of that. I don't know if they were tied in with C.T. Takahashi or not, who was a big trader. And I know, because I visited the silk factory that the family owned in the capital city of Yamanashi-ken called Kofu, this was at the tail end of the occupation when I first went to Japan as a member of the Department of State. I was a junior foreign service officer at that time.

TI: Okay, we'll get back to that later.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So, let's go, in terms of siblings, so I know a little bit about your father and mother. Brothers and sisters?

LH: Oh, there were six of us, and the oldest just died, as I mentioned, Lillian Ishii, living in Lacey or Olympia, because her husband was president of, the first lay president of Saint Martin's College.

TI: So, Lillian was your oldest sister.

LH: Oldest, and now I have, the second is also a sister, second oldest named Stella, married a Hawaiian Nisei named Kiyo Hashimoto, and lives in Seattle.

TI: Sure, I know Kiyo.

LH: Oh, do you?

TI: Yeah, I know his son really well.

LH: And actually, Lillian's husband, John Ishii was, people found him interesting because he was adopted by the Dunn family, who owned a large seed company in Seattle. And his father had been partners with Dunn, but the father had died early in life, and John was adopted by the Dunn family. And the story goes, many Nisei were envious of John Ishii living up in Magnolia bluff in a beautiful house, and the rest of us Nikkei, maybe some of us doing fairly well on the outskirts of Seattle, but not in Nihonmachi. And yet he had quite a miserable life, being adopted by this Caucasian family when the majority of Seattle being, you know, white, Caucasian, didn't accept him as, as a member of the community.

TI: And so even though it appeared that he was living more of a life of luxury, actually, you said he wasn't happy in that life.

LH: Oh, far from it, far from it.

TI: Interesting.

LH: Now, after Stella, the oldest brother is Ed, Edwin. Actually, it's... yes, Lillian, Stella, then Edwin, he goes by Ed, and he lives in Bellevue. And then I had a brother just above me named Art, Arthur, and he was also in high school with me in camp, a year ahead of me. And then I had a younger sister named Marie, and Marie married a fellow named Ooka, double-O-K-A. And Marie's gone, Arthur's gone, and Lillian, the oldest, just passed away a couple of months ago.

TI: Okay, so you were the fifth of six.

LH: I was the fifth out of six.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So where in Seattle did you live? You mentioned near Lake Washington.

LH: Yes, well, I lived at 3104, also at 934, and so I was born and grew up in a Caucasian neighborhood, which was... I won't say unique, but the far majority of the Nikkei lived in and around, I guess, then called Japantown.

TI: So you say, so what neighborhood would that be, when you say, "3104"?

LH: Rainier Avenue.

TI: Okay, so a little further south.

LH: Yeah, near Franklin High School.

TI: Got it, okay, good. So the Mount Baker area. So, why do you, why do you think your family lived away from the rest of the community?

LH: Well, you know, being the fifth of six children, there are a lot of the family history I really don't know, but I guess it's no different than anybody else who felt we should be part of America, to be part of the community and not, you know, be exclusively with members of the Japanese community, even though they were members of the Japanese community.

TI: So growing up in Seattle before the war, do you recall going to, like, Japanese sort of community events like Obon or...

LH: On rare occasions I do remember things of that sort, even though that wasn't the primary focus of my life. And actually, later in life, I did attend the Japanese language school we called "Tip School," I think six months, because I hated the language so much. I remember my mother would say, "You're putting dirt on the face of the Horiuchi name by being such an irresponsible child in school, at Tip School." But I was such a bad child, she allowed me to quit.

TI: Okay. So let's talk about going to school. So eventually, in that Mount Baker area, or down there, you started going to school. Do you recall what, what school you attended?

LH: Actually, by then, we, I was living at 934, and went to Rainier School. Do you know Rainier School?

TI: Yeah, that's up around Seattle University?

LH: Above, above Rainier Avenue, up near, I think it's Twenty-seventh or Twenty-fifth.

TI: Okay, I think I know where it is.

LH: It became a trade school later. I think I may have been the last one to graduate that grade school, I think, in 1939. Maybe it might have been '41, '41, because... '39. Because then I went to the Washington Junior High School, well, I know a lot of Nikkei came from that part of town, and I came from this part of town, and so they allowed us all to graduate junior high school in May, you know, a month early, because we were all going into the camp.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Now, in those early years, just growing up, what kind of things did you like to do growing up?

LH: Well, actually, I think... if you speak of the summer, I remember just going swimming in Lake Washington at every opportunity. The family was, were readers, so I know that I always joined the summer reading class. And the one I particularly remember was the Yesler library.

TI: I think they call it the Douglass-Truth Public Library, is that...?

LH: I don't know, I don't know.

TI: Good.

LH: And, you know, I remember playing a lot of games with neighborhood kids and, you know, being from a large family, playing indoors with the family during rainy days, whether it was Monopoly or whatever it might have been.

TI: Well, how about your friends in these early days? Do you recall who your friends were?

LH: Yes. Interestingly, many of my friends, I would say almost exclusively Caucasian, even though I knew a few Nikkei, shockingly, after the war, wouldn't associate with me, and that was all because of, you know, the propaganda that we were Japanese. And that's why I emphasize to everybody, "Stop calling yourselves Japanese," because Nikkei still do so. And, you know, something else is going to occur again, and they won't differentiate us from the Japanese-Japanese, as I call them. Even though I, I'm proud of my ancestry and my culture, and I served many years in Japan and think the world of Japan historically and as a people, we are not Japanese.

TI: So explain that a little more. So this was after the war, you were telling your friends that, that they should stop using that term, "Japanese," in terms of self-describing.

LH: Oh yes, oh yes, absolutely, because I guess it continues to this day, and it was just more so then. Because in those days, it was, you know, the Grangers and the Daughters of the Golden West, and the Hearst newspapers, they called everybody "Japs," and as you may or may not know, the Issei were not allowed to become U.S. citizens period until the McCarren Act was passed in 1951. And so they were accused of having Japantowns and living exclusively among themselves, generally. But in many ways, they were forced to. And they weren't allowed to own land, own property, own houses.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to jump forward a little bit.

LH: Of course.

TI: And December 7, 1941. How did you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

LH: Actually, I came out of the Mount Baker movie theater and heard about it. And I remember that both my older brothers, older brothers and sisters, and my parents couldn't truly believe that it had occurred, you know. That it must just be some rumor or some story that was based on false facts, so to speak. I must admit, even before Tip School and after Tip School, for some reason, I never really focused on the fact that I was of Japanese ancestry. I guess growing up in a Caucasian neighborhood and going to school where they were primarily Caucasian, I must have felt that I was one of them. But that's when it hit me square in the face that no, I wasn't one of them, I was really an American of Japanese ancestry or for short, a "Jap."

TI: And so when this happened, did you, do you recall talking to family members, your parents, or anyone about, about this?

LH: Oh, yes. And in fact, for some strange reason, my father consulted John Ishii, who my oldest sister eventually married. I guess he respected his intelligence and knowledge of world affairs, that he finally accepted the fact that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor after speaking to John Ishii, very strangely.

TI: Because he didn't actually believe it? He thought that maybe...

LH: He just didn't believe it. I mean, by then we were hearing it on the radio at home, and talking, you know, to neighbors about it. But for some reason, he just couldn't accept the fact that the Japanese would be so foolish as to start a war against America. And you know, I think a lot of Japanese -- I met Admiral Nomura, who was one of the two Japanese ambassadors to Washington when the war started. And he was a leader in the Japanese navy, but he as well as General Yamamoto, the most famous Japanese army officer, had both lived in America and knew that we could never -- "they," the Japanese -- could never win against we Americans, especially if it was a prolonged war. 'Cause they knew of our industrial might, and they had told those in command that if you go against America, and you, because you truly believe in the greater co-Asia prosperity sphere, and you want to take over the main parts of China and Southeast Asia, then you sue for peace. Then they, Nomura and Yamamoto, felt there was some logic to going to war. But no, Tojo and the others felt they could literally defeat America.

TI: Interesting. Going back to... when you mentioned when you were born, your, you said your father was out with a government, or Japanese government official.

LH: Well, he was a member of the imperial household agency, the medical doctor.

TI: So was your, was your dad at all sort of targeted as someone that was close to Japan during this time, like --

LH: Was my father targeted?

TI: Yeah, was he, like, picked up by the FBI for questioning or anything like that?

LH: Oh, yes. Well, now, I should not mention the name, even though I've mentioned it in private, and I will to you later, but because of our close friendship with a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Seattle. I know to this day because I talked to him after the war, and after service in the Department of State, feeling that he might admit it to me, that it was through his influence our family was not broken up, and my father was not picked up along with other Issei leaders of the Seattle community. And he would never literally, orally state that it was he that saw that this occurred, but he did give me a wink.

TI: So how did this relationship develop between this, this FBI official and your family?

LH: Yes, my oldest sister, Lillian, had worked for Sakamoto, who ran some newspaper. And Sakamoto, for whatever reason, was a friend of this Bureau officer. And the Bureau officer became friends of my family.

TI: Interesting. This is the first time I've heard anything like that. So was your father brought in for questioning, or was he just...

LH: Well, I must say, at age thirteen, I don't recall those details, but I remember specifically this incident about the FBI and how I followed up on it later in life because I got to know this family. Okay.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So let's move on to... after a couple months, people in Seattle were taken to Puyallup. Do you remember what Puyallup was like for you?

LH: Oh, I remember very, very strongly and in great detail. I remember we assembled and someplace called Collins Play Field, and this was May 9, 1942. And I remember when we got to -- I lived in Area C -- and I think Area A might have been the actual racetrack, and C was just part of the fairground where they built these temporary quarters. And I remember when we went in, immediately how we were filling up these, these sacks with straw for our beds. And of course, vividly recalling that the barracks were such that there were no actual walls all the way up to the top of the ceiling, part of it was into the next areas. And I know it was embarrassing for the women, the older girls and young ladies and wives, where I guess, you know, young kids aren't as concerned about privacy to that degree, and going to the bathroom and, where there were no partitions. I remember cold water, not much hot water, and you know, lining up for the mess hall and things like that. Those were my most vivid memories -- and people visiting up to the camp gate. They were able to come visit from Seattle, they neighbors of ours. And then getting passes to visit other areas within Area A --

TI: Going back to the neighbors visiting, do you recall anyone in particular that came to visit you or the family?

LH: Actually, this member of the FBI came, and a Dr. Guthrie and his family was very close to my oldest sister, because Dr. Guthrie, a medical doctor, had a daughter the same age as my sister Lillian, who was born in 1920. And in fact, he's the one that -- if I may jump ahead -- at age ten, I had a ruptured appendix, it was removed, and because it had been ruptured, they had tubes in it to drain out poison. I ripped it out, and I barely made it, but thank God to Dr. Guthrie, I did.

TI: [Laughs] That's good. The other thing I wanted to ask, when you were at Puyallup, you grew up a lot with a lot of Caucasians. And now all of a sudden you're in this place where there's a really high concentration of Japanese and Japanese Americans.

LH: Yes.

TI: How was that for you?

LH: Well, like I say, I knew a few Nikkei from, from Tip School, and there were a smattering of Nisei in... well, a smattering, a very few in grade school, but more in junior high school, 'cause of its location. And well, you know, it's just part of life. You accept what's around you, and I felt an affinity, naturally, towards other Nisei. It's one reason why I come to these reunions, because I still feel that very strongly, and yet I lost contact with them literally for fifty, sixty years.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So after a few months in Puyallup, you were then moved to Minidoka?

LH: Oh, yes. August 23rd, I remember... in fact, I guess it was August 22nd, and August 23rd is when we landed there. But a minor incident I should mention, that Lillian, the oldest, had joined us, was part of the group that went into Puyallup, but she got special dispensation and left Puyallup in early July to join her fiance in Worland, Wyoming. Because the Ishii family, the Dunn family and the Ishii family had relatives in Wyoming, and so she was able to get out of "Camp Harmony" -- what a euphemism, "Camp Harmony" -- to go to Wyoming to marry John Ishii.

TI: That, you're right, that's very unusual. I've never heard of anyone who was able to do something like this.

LH: Well, that's exactly what happened.

TI: And again, this is from these contacts, I guess, that John's family had.

LH: I can only assume that.

TI: And how did John get to Worland, Wyoming?

LH: Well, the Dunn family had set it up because of relatives of the Dunns and relatives of, of John. It'll come to me as we speak. There was a, I remember meeting her after the war, it was part of the -- she wasn't an Ishii, but Virginia Ondo --

TI: Yes.

LH: Oh, you know the name? She married a Chinese American judge.

TI: Yes, Judge Chan, Warren Chan.

LH: Yes. But that's part of that family, and I do know, because I remember I dated her a few times. She was going to the University of Washington. Anyway, I should also mention, my second oldest sister never went into the camp, because immediately after graduating high school, probably in the autumn of 1941, went to Washington, D.C. to work for, of all places... I don't know if it was at the time, but I know during the war it was called the Office of War Information, where everything to do with the Manhattan Project went through her hands. [Laughs] Can you imagine that? Through the hands of a Nikkei.

TI: And she, and she retained that job during the war?

LH: Oh yes, all during the war. Then rejoined --

TI: That was your other sister?

LH: Yes, the second oldest who's married to Kiyo Hashimoto.

TI: That's interesting. That's interesting. And just a follow-up to the Worland, Washington, or Worland, Wyoming.

LH: Yes.

TI: My, my mother-in-law grew up in Worland, with the Hayashida family. And so that's why...

LH: Is that the Block 7 Heidi Hayashida family?

TI: No, because she actually was in Worland during the war.

LH: Ah ha, I see.

TI: And so, so they never went to camp, so it was just... but the Worland, Wyoming, when you said that, it was kind of interesting.

LH: Yes. But of course, I remember distinctly getting off the train there, somewhere in Idaho, and then taking a long bus ride into the camp. And I lived in Block 10, 3-B, but Block 10, I guess, wasn't completed, so we lived in what was called a recreation hall, I think it was Block 13 or 15. Because every block besides the barracks, how many barracks I can't recall, ten barracks, each block had a laundry room, a mess hall, and a recreation hall. So I remember we initially, probably for about a month, lived there before we moved into 10-3-B.

TI: And so at this point, your family was pretty much the boys and your younger sister and your parents.

LH: That's right.

TI: 'Cause your older sisters had gone.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So what were your impressions of Minidoka? Any interesting experiences or incidents that you, that stand out for you with Minidoka?

LH: Well, I think probably one of the most cohesive groups were the high schoolers. They had a routine, and they were very, very close to the Caucasian teachers that came in to help educate us, and I think that's why to this day, I'm still close to two of them, especially Helen Amerman Manning, who lives in East Bay of San Francisco, and I live in Sonoma.

TI: Tell me a little bit about Mrs. Amerman in terms of, what kind of teacher was she, and what topic?

LH: Yes, well, she was a core teacher initially, and then later, I think Student Guidance. But she was a... well, I think she's ninety-one now, so she wasn't that much older than most of us, ten, twelve years older. But a single lady, and very friendly and very nice, and I know from talks with her of late, that they were all told not to fraternize with the evacuees, but she did. And she treated us as normal human beings, and as normal schoolkids, and associated as closely with us as possible.

TI: And what would that mean, when you say "associated as closely as possible"?

LH: Well, she would have some of us up to her quarters, because the teachers lived in separate areas, she worked intimately with us in some of our clubs, whether it was the records club, the college-bound club. She just wasn't standoffish or inaccessible as some of the teachers were.

TI: Now, when you would compare, say, where you lived in your block with the teachers' quarters, how would you compare the two?

LH: Well, it wasn't the difference between night and day, but I mean, they all had, each teacher had private quarters. And obviously, as you know, we didn't. We all, the families all lived in one small room. They had a private mess hall with much better food, they had, you know, access to Twin Falls on the weekends, and some of the teachers, in fact, lived in Twin Falls and would commute back and forth.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: You know, there was an incident in camp that, you might have been a little young for this, but the administration came out with a "loyalty questionnaire."

LH: May I interrupt?

TI: Sure.

LH: The most interesting aspect of that whole thing is, every document in every book I've ever read said, "for those seventeen and older" to sign this questionnaire. I have documentary proof from the government, which I obtained, that shows I think I was fourteen or fifteen, and my younger sister, who was two years younger, signed the same documents.

TI: Oh, interesting. So even though you were underage...

LH: That's correct.

TI: ...they had you go through this.

LH: Absolutely.

TI: And did they, was this signed by a guardian also, like your parents?

LH: No, no, I have the document, just shows that, my name, signed, and a separate document that my younger sister had signed.

TI: Well, to, to answer this, then, did you get any guidance, or how did you decide to figure this out?

LH: I can only imagine, you know, from the family and from friends, because we all signed what the majority did, I guess, "yes-yes."

TI: Now, was it a very controversial or difficult situation for people to fill this out, do you recall?

LH: Well, it was controversial, but not like it was apparently in Manzanar and some of the other camps. 'Cause as you probably know, we had more volunteers from Minidoka into the army than any other camp. And in fact, Block 10 was only a half a block, 'cause half of it was the elementary school, one of the two elementary schools. And yet even though we were half a block, we had more volunteers for the army than any other block. And I think we had more killed from our block as well, than any other block.

TI: So I'm going to jump ahead. I'd love to spend more time, but I want to get to the postwar. So tell me, after Minidoka, what did you and your family do? Where did you go after Minidoka?

LH: Well, fortunately, we had this house that my father owned, then of course, you know, how it was before the war, it was in the name of my oldest sister. And by then, my oldest sister after the war was living up in Magnolia Bluff waiting for her husband to come back from, he was in the Military Intelligence Service in the Philippines and Japan and Hokkaido. My two older brothers were in the army, and waiting for them to come back. And even though I graduated from Hunt High in three years, I wanted to have the experience of high school life in America, so to speak, in Seattle, so I went to Franklin, because I was living in Mount Baker at that time. And the only other Nikkei of our class of five hundred were Kaz Suyama, who's now deceased. His older brother Nobi is also deceased, but I know Nobi's sister is attending this session. I'm sorry, Nobi's, Nobi's wife Katie or Katherine, or whatever her name is. And Mits Kawachi, in fact, I embarrassed Mits... I embarrassed Mits because when I met his wife here in 2001 reunion, I said, "Oh, I remember, Mits, how I allowed you and Kaz to join me and my date for our high school prom, because you guys didn't have dates." I had dated a girl named Sodie Nakashima, and I don't know Sodie's real name, probably Sadako, I don't know where she is now. But I embarrassed Mits by bringing this up.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: I'm gonna do a little tangent here, because you're mentioning these names, and you say, like, Sodie and her real name was Sadako, I mean, just in terms of nicknames, one of the things that I find interesting about a lot of the Niseis is the use of nicknames. And oftentimes they are sort of variations off their Japanese names, and sometimes not.

LH: That's right.

TI: And I just wanted to ask you, were there any nicknames that sort of stand out in your mind that you find sort of interesting?

LH: Yes, well, there's a story I always tell which is not true even though the nicknames are true. I would ask Caucasian friends, "You know, some Nisei had these nicknames they picked up, so tell me which is the male and the female: Fleazy Okazaki marries Bugsy Ono." They did not marry each other, but Fleazy Okazaki was a Nisei from Seattle who I knew in camp who was much older than I was. In fact, I think he recently died. And Bugsy Ono was in high school in camp with us.

TI: So how did these nicknames come about?

LH: Well, there's one nickname that I recall, it was Utah. And people thought, well, his name was Yutaka, so they called him from the state of Utah, but his name was really George Yutaka Onodera, but they called him Utah. And my oldest brother I mentioned, Ed, Edwin Horiuchi, who lives up in Bellevue, he had finished Garfield, I believe, or was it Franklin? No, Garfield. And he was a teacher in camp for a while, and then worked for the supervisor of, Superintendent of Education of Minidoka. And he liked to give nicknames to people that stuck. I mean, Kaz Suyama was called Blots, Blots... but why "Blots," who's to say? And I've forgotten some guy with a Japanese name, and he ended up as Jake. And why is King Tamura "King," I don't know.

TI: But your brother --

LH: But there was Knuckles, and she's here at this, this reunion. Beautiful girl, my class, and "Knuckles" comes from Naoko. And why "Porky" for Porky Noritake? A beautiful girl, maybe because she was a little plump? I'm not sure.

TI: [Laughs] And so your brother, sort of, had... he liked to actually try to give people nicknames that would stick.

LH: They did stick.

TI: So it was almost like a contest of some type, or just sort of a...

LH: Well, I don't know. He was just one of these guys... like our current so-called president, because he wasn't really elected initially, was he, in 2000? Likes to give everybody nicknames and put people down. But my brother Ed, he wasn't putting people down when he gave them nicknames.

TI: Now, were you, did you ever have a nickname?

LH: I never did. It was always Lucius. They called me "Luscious Lucius," the girls did, anyway. But I belonged to a little group called the Ziros. Not the Zero fighter plane, but the Ziros. And my oldest brother organized it, and I remember we bought jackets through the mail order, and my name was Lucius. [Indicates lapel] And Kaz Suyama's had Blots, and Tom Tsutakawa, I guess his name was Tom.

TI: And how'd you spell "Ziro"? Z...

LH: Z-I-R-O-S, Ziros.

TI: Okay.

LH: But it was a club or a gang, but not the kind of gang you would consider in this day and age.

TI: And did, was Ziros sort from Zeros? Was it kind of a...

LH: I don't know. Again, and that's from my oldest brother who loved picking names or nicknames, and playing on words.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: So let's go back to Franklin High School, and earlier you mentioned that some of your Caucasian friends didn't really accept you after the war.

LH: That's right.

TI: That, was this that period when you found, or experienced those things, when you went back to Franklin?

LH: Oh, yes. In fact, the first school dance we had, I went to, and some of the girls in my senior class were also those I'd known in grade school and junior high. And even though the ones I had just met at Franklin wouldn't dance with me, even the ones I knew before the war wouldn't dance with me, which really shocked me. And they wouldn't dance with me because I was an American of Japanese ancestry. And I remember a guy named Dave Burrows, I think he was from Franklin -- from Garfield. And he came to the dance, and of course, everybody raising a big fuss over Dave Burrows because he was a football star. And I went up to talk to him, and he ignored me. And yet he was, you know, one of my closest friends. And yet we had, I think two Nisei Franklin High School graduates who were killed during the war. But none of this seeps into the minds of high schoolers, you know. They just accepted the propaganda our government put out, that, you know, "once a 'Jap,' always a 'Jap,'" like DeWitt would say.

TI: So how did you feel? So you went from a place where you had lots of Japanese friends, you were accepted, you wanted to go back to Franklin.

LH: Well, not only accepted, I was one of the leaders of Hunt High School, if I may put it in those terms, and the most, one of the most popular.

TI: Right, so you go from that situation to now Franklin, where I imagine, still, you were an excellent student.

LH: Well, that's where I became an excellent student, because in camp, I wasn't initially, I was not a yogore, but I wasn't particularly studious. I got to be a bit more studious later on through the influence of people like Helen Amerman and Bob Coombs. And so all the more reason, I think that's why we had so many Nikkei get involved in academic life or in sports, because socially, so to speak, they weren't part of the community. And that's where I excelled at Franklin, in the debate club and winning their oratorical contests, and a number of areas where I felt that if I exceeded in that, I would be more fully accepted.

TI: Now, were there others, though, that supported you and actually encouraged you during this time?

LH: Oh, yes. I remember, I guess it was my English teacher, who was also my debate coach named Samuelson. And Mr. Samuelson was a true believer in, you know, equality, and we're all the same, we're all Americans. He's the one that helped me in some of my speeches where I got up to the finalists in Seattle in an oratorical contest, got to the state finals in Olympia, I recall, and then losing out. But there was also another teacher named Davenport who was very helpful. Another thing that really hurt me deeply was I was a member of the Hi-Y club. It's a Christian club in camp, and they wouldn't allow me to join it at Franklin. A Christian club. [Laughs] Really, most ironic.

TI: So, do you think the, sort of, anti-Japanese feeling was just, was the strongest right after the war? Those, that one or two years right after?

LH: Oh, yes, I mean, obviously during the war and right after the war. And you know, it took a long time, and that's why I'm fully sympathetic with the "no-no boys" and how they signed up as "no-no boys." But if it wasn't for the glory of the 100th and the 442, and then later what the MIS did, it would have been so much more difficult for the Nikkei to fully establish themselves into the, into the community mainstream of America. And I, I think that's an additional reason I myself joined the army immediately...

TI: Okay, before we get there, there's, I just... sort of this hostility towards Japanese Americans after the war. Do you think there was confusion? I mean, these were, these were kids that you grew up with. They knew that you were born and raised in Seattle, and so I'm a little confused why they couldn't distinguish who you were as an American citizen.

LH: Well, I think that it's the same old business as you, you join the majority. Those that knew me before the war are still gonna side with the majority of the Caucasians that didn't know the Nikkei before the war, that believed that everybody who was of Japanese ancestry was a "Jap." And so they weren't man enough or woman enough or strong enough to break from the majority to continue their friendship with a so-called "Jap."

TI: So during this period, did you have anyone that you could confide in and just talk about these, these issues with?

LH: Well, with this FBI family, this Dr. Guthrie family, and a few others that I knew, but mostly adults, not younger people. I think that's where the seed began, where I said to myself, "Well, I should join the army like the majority of the Nikkei did, and go to college out east, where I would be, you know, accepted as a member of the majority." Because an anthropologist in camp had said to me, "Economic prejudice, or prejudice, racial prejudice, will never be eradicated in a competitive economic system," and that's true. Because when your livelihood is at stake, and that of your wife and your children, and you lose your job, or you may lose your job, ninety, ninety-nine percent of the people of the world will turn against anybody. All those with green hair, or all those with epicanthic fold, or without the epicanthic fold. So to me, it's understandable, although not acceptable, that that's what occurred during the war, after the war, and occurred after 9/11.

TI: So America being a capitalist society, you're saying that in some ways, the system, I guess "encourages" is not the right word, but fosters sort of this, sort of racial divide.

LH: I wouldn't go as far as "foster," but it's inevitable in human society, it's the human condition. It's the best in the world. There's nothing better than a representative republic, which we have. And as I've traveled around the world, and I've seen, not just from textbooks, but by intimately involved in affairs around the world, you know there's nothing better than here. You make the best of it, but you've got to know what it's all about, otherwise, you tear yourself apart. You're full of agony and distrust and hate yourself, because you expect perfection. But we know there's no perfection.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So, let's go, after you graduated from Franklin, then, then what did you do? Is this when you went into the army?

LH: No -- that's correct. I went into the army, and I served from '46 to '48, and in fact, my last, I was a member of the 2nd Infantry Division, G-3, which is operations and training. But my last assignment, I was pulled out of the 2nd Infantry Division to go to Ogden, Utah, to serve in the Army Graves Registration Service, and brought back the first Nisei dead from Italy to Seattle for burial. There's documentary proof of that, front page of the Seattle Times and the Stars and Stripes. In fact, Mas Fukuhara was involved in something like this not too long ago, so I sent him copies of these things showing myself being involved in this, and in fact, I remember talking to the Kato family, Shuzo Kato's family. And if there's anything that tears me up, it's this aspect of life where I have to talk about, or talk about the Nikkei dead. And we were told by Army Graves Registration, "Talk the parents into not opening up the casket," 'cause you never know what's in there, the body, the skeleton, maybe just the dog tag. And you know, so many Isseis are Buddhist, they want that, that casket open for everybody to view. So you know, it's hard enough to talk the parents into it, so finally to Shuzo, the brother and others in the family, we were able to talk the parents into not opening up the caskets.

TI: And this was the first one that you brought back?

LH: These, yes, and these were the very first that came back to Seattle.

TI: And so it was, one of your roles was to actually talk to the family individually about what was coming back?

LH: Oh, yes. It was a very touching and moving and difficult assignment, but a very honorable one.

TI: Do ever recall doing this for Francis Kinoshita?

LH: No, I think Francis Kinoshita came back later. There were, I think, three or four, and like I say, I would have to look up the documents, or you can get it from Mas Fukuhara.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: Okay, so we're gonna go into our second hour, and we got through your life up to your military career, so this is about 1946, '48.

LH: Correct.

TI: And so why don't you tell me, after the military, what was the next step? What did you do next?

LH: Right. Well, came back to Seattle, and I went to the U of W and took some courses at Cornish. I was very much interested in, in writing, and thinking I wanted to be a playwright. So I remember Tom Tsutakawa was attending art school there, the art section, and so I went there for a year at UW and Cornish, and then I decided to go to Boston primarily on the basis of what we talked about, that I felt that I wanted to go out and see the other part of America, the other part where there's going to be a lot less prejudice because I will not be an economic threat to the majority, and that's where most racial prejudice emerges from. And at that time, I had also my oldest sister living in Washington, D.C., her husband getting his Ph.D. at Georgetown University in political science. So through their friends and my contacts, I went to Boston University, and that was in '49, and then graduated in '51. And by then, and I... [laughs] you say we can edit things out, but I'm not worried about this. My brother-in-law, John Ishii, after getting his Ph.D. out of Georgetown had joined the Department of State, and had opened up the door for me. But you know, it's just like everything in life, you may have someone open a door for you, but you have to prove yourself. So I'd taken all the appropriate tests, and the orals, and was accepted in the foreign service. And so from '51 until '93, I was literally involved with the Department of State, even though I formally retired in 1988. In fact, if I may say, lunch at the White House, and retirement ceremonies on the Schultz in July of 1988. And then -- we'll talk about certain aspects of my career before I go on to my second career?

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Yeah, let's talk about your foreign service career. So '51, so you mentioned John was already in the foreign service, and then you joined. Were there other Nikkei or other Japanese Americans...

LH: Oh, yes, very few. You know, just because they're Nikkei among four thousand foreign service officers. You're talking about thirty thousand people. But the foreign service is, if I may say, the elite element, the diplomatic corps, of the foreign service, of the Department of State, does not necessarily mean that you know everyone. Even in the same bureau, Bureau of East Asia Pacific Affairs, I didn't know everybody in there.

TI: Well, let's talk about some of your assignments in the foreign service, and let's do it sort of chronologically.

LH: Yes.

TI: So why don't you start with your first --

LH: Well, I can give you a quick rundown, and then you can ask me certain details if you wish, but '51 I went to Japan, to the embassy in Tokyo, and from there, I made a number of TDYs, Temporary Duty Trips to Korea. So I jokingly say that I served in three wars, because later I went to Vietnam. So in World War II -- I am literally a veteran of World War II. If you served before the end of June 1947, you are legally a veteran of World War II. You know, you got the GI bill, the burial rights, Arlington, all of that. So in and out of Korea during that time, but primarily in Tokyo. I also served, later, a tour in the U.S. embassy in Seoul, and also... let's see, back in Japan again at the embassy in Tokyo, at which time I married Mary Maynard Cooke, whose father was a full admiral and was chief of staff of the navy during World War II. And with the family, lived in mainland China... or maybe we'll go into that later?

TI: Why don't we go into that now, and then we'll come back to your career. This is a good place, so...

LH: Okay. Yeah, mainland China...

TI: So Mary Maynard Cooke, so tell me a little bit about her and her family.

LH: Well, actually, it goes way back. There's a hall in Annapolis named after a relative of hers, and she lived in Cuba when her father was commandant of (the U.S. Naval Fleet, Guantanamo Bay,) Cuba when she was twelve. She was born in 1925, so that makes it 1937. In other words, she was moving around the world while I was still born and brought, being brought up in Seattle.

TI: And she was moving around because her father was a high-ranking officer in the U.S. Navy?

LH: Oh, yes. In fact, interestingly, he was captain of the flagship Pennsylvania, that means the Pacific Fleet, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And the Japanese aimed for the Pennsylvania, the flagship. But two days before the attack, he moved into dry dock for repairs, and the Utah was placed there, and they sunk the Utah. His battleship was attacked, but it didn't sink, but they thought he died because it was reported all hands of the Pennsylvania went down on December 7th. And it was only three days later did they hear in Sonoma, California, where they had the ranch where I now live, that he was alive, because they had moved his battleship into dry dock.

TI: So the family thought that he had, he had perished during the attack.

LH: Oh yes, oh yes. And she later lived in mainland China, Tsingtao, the headquarters of the 7th Fleet, where her father, as a four-star admiral, was commander of the 7th Fleet. But then she later, on her own, worked for the U.S. government and was working at the embassy in Tokyo, but before she came and I had heard about her, she had heard about me and I had moved to the embassy in Seoul, but I met her during one of my trips, and we got engaged and married there in Japan in 1959.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: Okay, that was really fast, so let's talk about, how did the two of you first meet?

LH: Yes. Well, we first met there at the embassy in (1958).

TI: And under what circumstances did you...

LH: Well, literally, she had heard about this fellow that had seventeen concubines and a Chinese cook, who had the best dinner serving in Tokyo.

TI: And that was you?

LH: And that was me. [Laughs]

TI: So how did the rumor happen?

LH: Well, in other words, I had lots of girlfriends, and I did have a Chinese cook, and I entertained well. I had heard about her, that she was coming out as a, as an editor for the embassy, and so I was looking forward to meeting her, and having seen pictures of her. But then I was reassigned to Korea, but I looked her up when I came on leave. In fact, I cancelled a second tour in Korea to get married, to stay there in Japan with her.

TI: So it sounds like that went really fast.

LH: It was; it was very fast. We met in August to say hello, I went back in November, and after four dates, we got engaged. I went back to Washington, changed my assignment, came back to Tokyo, and we got married in January of '59.

TI: So I'm curious, how did her family react to her marrying you?

LH: Excellent question. The Navy, the most prejudiced of all the services, the father was very open-minded. He never hated the Japanese, the Japanese-Japanese, he knew that they were just the enemy. And the mother was a grande dame, and was very careful with me. And when I, when their only son, meaning my brother-in-law, was married up in Seattle while I was on leave, he was attending the UW getting his master's through the Air Force, though he's a naval, Annapolis graduate. I was his best man, so the father came up for the marriage and I flew back with him to Sonoma to meet the mother who had been ill. And she would not introduce me around her social circle as her daughter's fiance. But later became her favorite son-in-law. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] How about your family? How did they react to you?

LH: Well, actually, my father was, had already passed away. My mother was a little wary, because she had known of some, I guess, Issei that had married Caucasians in Seattle, and the marriages hadn't worked out, and I don't want to mention the names here while this is being recorded. I can give you a name or two later. And she also knew that there are lot of divorces among Caucasians, and she just didn't think, you know, intermarriage would work out, though she really wasn't prejudiced against Caucasians, we had so many Caucasian friends. But once she knew it was set in concrete, she accepted it, and it worked out beautifully.

TI: And so where did the two of you get married?

LH: We got married in Tokyo, and we got married, you have to get married legally in the embassy, and that was January 6th of 1959, and then you get registered in the Japanese ward office there, near the embassy, to make it legal in the eyes of the Japanese, and then you have a church wedding, which we had an Episcopal ceremony on January 15th, which is Adult's Day in Japan, a holiday, and Martin Luther King Day here, now.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: And so what was it like being a young married couple in Japan during this time?

LH: Well, actually, it was very good, and the Japanese were fascinated that, you know, to see a Nisei married to a Caucasian. And we had many, of course, obviously, very close American friends in the embassy and the business community and amongst the Japanese as well. I mentioned Admiral Nomura, Kurusu family, though I don't remember the husband, maybe he had passed away by then, the other Japanese ambassador that was in Washington when the war started.

TI: So I'm just imagining, this is pretty heady stuff. I mean, I'm thinking, so you married into, one you're a foreign service officer, which is prominent, but to then marry into this very prominent American family, a woman whose father's a four-star admiral, gives you access to so many different individuals, so many different situations.

LH: That's true, it did, and I admit, it helped my, my career. I don't say it made my career, it's the same old business, you make life on your own. The doors may be opened for you, but you've got to prove yourself. But it certainly helped in many ways, and it was not easy for both of us from that standpoint, and...

TI: I'm sorry, why do you say that? Why wasn't it easy?

LH: Well, because, you know, I won't mention certain ambassadors' names, but, and even certain presidents' names, that still of the mind that, you know, we are a Caucasian nation, and the Caucasians run this country. I mean, to this day, nothing against our great senators, starting from Inouye, who I know fairly well, and you go to Mineta, who became a cabinet member, two cabinet positions. Presidents will say, "Who? Mineta, who's he?" "Oh, yeah, that's that guy with the Asian face," you know? It's still, even though they themselves may not be prejudiced, it's just part of the makeup. It still hasn't dawned on so many people that, as it has in California, that we are really a force. That the minorities, I mean, after all, Latinos will be the majority in a generation or two. And I think we're already, all minorities, I think just about surpass Caucasians in the State of California.

TI: In California, I think that's true, yes.

LH: I can mention an episode or two about my relationships with various presidents, but maybe you want me to go on from...

TI: Well, so I'm curious, your relationships with, your entre into meeting presidents, you mentioned Admiral Nomura. Was that more from your, your career, or was it from the family connections?

LH: Well, in Nomura's case, it was the family. In many others, the Kurusu family, it all occurred through some negotiation I was involved in officially. So it's a combination of the two. And then, my wife, actually, doesn't like to be called "Admiral Cooke's daughter." She wants to be known as Mary Maynard Cooke, or Mary Maynard Cooke Horiuchi in her own right. And I can understand that, because her younger brother, who did very well at the naval academy and the Air Force, and then as an instructor at the Air Force Academy as a assistant secretary under Richardson and others, but never felt he made it in life because his father was so well-known. And he himself had what you call a EP, Executive Position. I think for most Americans, they don't really understand the foreign service and some of the other gradations, but they understand the GS system, and there's GS 1 through 15, and then there's super grades from 16 through 18. And then beyond that, it's called the Executive Position, from 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 1 would be a cabinet member, 2 would be an agency head. Well, he was an EP5. I mean, that's above a GS18, that's pretty darn good. But yet, he felt he never really made it, 'cause his father was so great. So I can understand that syndrome, of not wanting to be known as "the daughter of," or "the son of."

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So going back to your career, when you think about the long career with the foreign service, what are some highlights, when you think back to those years?

LH: Yes, well, I think back to... after Japan, I mentioned that -- well, I didn't mention -- we went back to Washington for a couple of years, and then we had a son who was born in 1962, who's a screenwriter and producer/director in Hollywood right now. We went to the Philippines, he was three until age five, and that is another aspect of it, that my wife's father helped me a lot there because he was commander of the 7th Fleet, which also included the Philippines. This is '45-'47, somewhere around there. '46, '48.

TI: '50, '55?

LH: No, well, no, I was there in '65.

TI: Oh, got it.

LH: But I'm saying when Admiral Cooke was head of the 7th Fleet. So they all knew my wife's father. But it helped a lot because I got access to the foreign minister, and especially to President Diosdado Macapagal, who was president of the Philippines then. And you know, it's the same old business in your own personal life. If you happen to be a friend of the mayor of Seattle and the governor of the state of Washington, you get involved in circles that may help you in your own career, and it helped me a lot in the Philippines. And then we'd gone back to Washington, and then I was sent to Vietnam during the worst time, '68, '70. It really was the worst time of the war, and in fact, I had unnamed ambassadors that said, "I want you to serve in the country I'm in because I know you don't want to go to Vietnam." And I would answer back, "I don't want to go to Vietnam," but as Maynard's background and mine mesh, if you're asked to go, you go. And it unfortunately, my son claims it was the worst time of his life, that I was gone, I think he was something like five to seven in age.

TI: 'Cause your wife and son were...

LH: Remained in Washington because they both, at this time, had medical holds on them for tropical climates, they both had severe asthma. In fact, my wife was under house arrest, medical arrest, the second year in the Philippines. And after Vietnam, then I returned and...

TI: Tell me a little bit about those Vietnam years that you were there.

LH: Well, I served in the embassy as, let's see... by then I was first secretary, and assigned to the embassy in Saigon. But my assignments as a political officer took me to various provinces of South Vietnam. And was not literally involved in firing weapons, but we always carried weapons on these trips, and we had weapons in our cars, in our offices. And though I was not, I was involved in a couple of firefights in these provinces, I was not actually involved in the battle itself. And then we had, you know, rockets falling into Saigon all the time, and it was literally a very dangerous assignment, personally, to your, to all of us that went. And it's like right now, they're forcing foreign service officers from various elements within the foreign service to go to Iraq because there aren't enough officers to go, or not enough volunteering to go, and they're being drafted to go. It's just like the army is so small, the military is so small, they're going back for second and third tours, or they're being, their periods of time are being extended in Iraq, because there aren't enough bodies to fill the positions.

I'd like to tell one story. In Japan... I first met President Carter in Japan, and his wife. And the time that I met their daughter, it was soon after he had lost the elections, I had never seen a man so down in all his life. He was really so discouraged, and the children, they had been in China for about ten days, and they came to Osaka. I was the senior consul there, I later became consul-general in Osaka-Kobe. And I had a, a bet with the president and his wife that I would beat his daughter, Amy, who was, I think, thirteen at the time, running up the down escalator, and I won. [Laughs] And I was well over fifty then. I...

TI: And so this was, I'm sorry, this was after Carter had lost the election but he was still president at this point?

LH: Oh, no, no.

TI: This was, he was...

LH: This was now, I think, '82. Reagan was already in office.

TI: Okay. So he was, he was just visiting Japan as a former president.

LH: Yes. Oh, but I tell you, when former presidents visit a foreign country, the embassy goes whole hog. I mean, the Secret Service comes first, everything almost shuts down, so to speak. And so we have to work with the, like in Japan, with the national police agency and all other elements of the government security services, about where they're gonna visit, who they're going to see. It's really quite a horrendous effort. And then, of course, the social aspects of it later are a lot of fun and extremely interesting. And a lot of publicity for both countries and for myself personally. It's always nice to, when people come, I don't like to have pictures of myself with presidents in the public rooms, but in one of the bathrooms I have pictures of myself with various presidents.

TI: Oh, that's good.

LH: And I won't say here on camera which president has come to the house, it shows him in my house.

TI: Okay, I'll ask you later.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: I'm going to jump around a little bit, but earlier, you said how Japan was, when you first started, was one of your first assignments. And so this was during the latter part of occupation.

LH: Correct.

TI: And I just wanted to get your impressions of what Japan was like during this time period.

LH: You know, the Japanese are very stoic. They, they bear difficulty and despair with great fortitude and dignity. And I've seen enough of this in other countries, including our own, where I really take my hat off to the Japanese, because the housing was terrible, the firebombing, you know, we talk about the destruction of the atomic bomb in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. As horrendous as it was and the lives it took, but the actual firebombings of Tokyo and Kobe and Osaka and other, other major cities including in Europe, General LeMay was a fanatic. And if we had lost the war, he would have been number one on trial, in war crimes trial because it was up to him to win that war, and he firebombed the hell out of those cities that killed hundreds of thousands, and I'm speaking of hundreds of thousands of civilians. The Japanese, it helped a lot that Americans were friendly and good, and they were so surprised, you know, just the way we Americans, so many Americans, or most Americans felt the Japanese were animals and devils. So most Japanese there, propaganda, were saying how, how the Americans will come in here and rape the women and kill people for no reason at all, and were happily shocked to find out that 99.9 percent of us were civilized, good human beings, and we were. Gave food away to the Japanese families and to the kids, and helped in so many ways in starting orphanages and shelters. And I must say, the good heart of the American people, the American GI really is something we should all take our hats off to.

TI: So I'm curious, within, so you're there at the latter part of the occupation?

LH: Yes.

TI: Within three decades, Japan had risen to being a major power in the world, not only politically, but economically, in just a matter of a few decades.

LH: Oh, absolutely.

TI: From being just devastated. And I'm just curious, did you see those seeds being planted then? Could you imagine that this would have happened to Japan in such a short period of time?

LH: Not that quickly. I could see it happening because of their strength and their cooperativeness. They worked together so well. And we also have to keep in mind the fact that the Japanese boom, their bubble, was a bubble. If I had all the answers to any questions about the details of their economy and their finances, I would be Rubin helping out in New York today, not Rubin himself, the former Secretary of Treasury. But, you know, it burst. It was doing so well up until the late '80s and early '90s, and they lost it. And literally, it still hasn't recovered. They're doing well, they live well, but they hold onto their money. And what little I know of any economy, is that money has to move around for it to continue to rise, and they're so careful in not spending their money. I see some improvement in land prices, but minor compared to what it was.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

LH: I said later I would talk a bit about my second career. I got involved in art and antiques because my grandfather and father held the third largest Japanese collection before the war, and helped start the Seattle Art Museum. I'm a major donor of the San Francisco Asian Art Museum through the collection of my, my grandparents and my parents.

TI: So let me ask you about that. So where, how did they get this collection?

LH: Well, through the silk company. They both were fanatics as collectors, and my father was actually also involved part-time in art and antiques, and in fact, Paul Horiuchi, the famous artist, used part of my father's collection to start a little antique shop in Seattle, I think about 1950, thereabouts. And had this antique shop, but spent most of his time painting in the back room.

TI: And so talk about, when you say the "second career," what type of...

LH: Well, I got involved into what I call Horiuchi-Cooke / Asian Art, a company I started. And when I retired, I was making a lot of money. And the annuity I get is pretty good anyway. I was extremely happy until, I mean, as far as profits are concerned, until after the bubble burst, 'til early '90s, 'til '95, even until 2000, I was still doing well.

TI: Because your clientele was Japanese?

LH: Yes, primarily.

TI: And they were paying top dollar?

LH: Oh, yeah. And I was able to get good things there, and the market here was very good for Japanese art and antiques. Now, it's relatively poor. Korean/Chinese Asian art is now selling well. I also take things, I go twice a year still to Japan. I like to go end of March, end of October, when it's cooler and nice, and matsutake season is in October, and get things authenticated in Japan for donation to the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco. I've donated to other museums as well, but since '86, almost primarily to the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: Okay. So I'm going to now jump to September 11, 2001, and wanted to get your, because of your experience of being a foreign service officer, what you lived through during World War II, you're probably in this unique position in terms of your perspectives on what's happening in our country today. And so I want to start with the terrorist activity on September 11th, and what were your thoughts when this was unfolding and you heard about this?

LH: Well, knowing that the Twin Towers had been a target several years previous, we should have truly increased what security measures we had taken as far as the Twin Towers were concerned. But I don't think anyone that I knew of that was involved in anti-terrorist activities would realize that terrorists would hijack an airplane and ram them into the Twin Towers. Of course, they were very shrewd, they got the ones that were leaving, I guess, New York or Boston to ram those while their gasoline tanks were completely full, to realize, they would know then that would cause major fires, probably not even realizing, though, that the buildings would actually collapse. One aspect of it I want to mention, though, is as I mentioned in my speech here during the reunion of 2001, I was involved in a presidential commission that was looking into Muslims putting, being put into camps like we were, along the same lines that we were, in the event of war or continued major Muslim activities against America.

TI: Let me clarify this. So, the last reunion, was that before or after...

LH: Oh, long before 9/11.

TI: Yeah, so it was before 9/11.

LH: Oh, yes.

TI: And you were on this commission looking at --

LH: Rounding up Muslims in America.

TI: And this was before 9/11.

LH: And this is before 9/11, because of all their activities, Al-Qaida and others, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

TI: But this was, you were still in the foreign service, or this is post-foreign service?

LH: Oh, yes, but I was a consultant on-again, off-again, to the Department of State. And in fact, on rare occasions, I'm still on call.

TI: Okay. So, so tell me as much as you can about this, this commission.

LH: Well, my attitude, obviously, you would know, that we shouldn't do such things. And as it's worked out, they pulled in American citizens, including Padilla, and put them away, no due process of law and writ of habeas corpus. No lawyers, families don't know where they are, and for year on end. They did things that were even worse than what we went through during World War II. And I, I can only say that thank God, in a sense. If it hadn't been for our experience, something similar could have happened to elements of the Muslim population. You know, it's the same old business, why didn't they do the same against the Italians and Germans that they did to us? Because we concentrate on the West Coast, it was the West Coast that was really up in arms, as I said, Hearst, name it. And they couldn't handle, literally, hundreds of thousands if not millions of Germans and Italians, could they? So they would have just hit, who knows, a hundred thousand, five hundred thousand Muslims from certain countries, aliens, some citizens, who's to say? But they couldn't put them all away. But it's like the "war on terror," the President harps on this: "We must win this war." Terror has been here from the time mankind came on earth. It'll be with us forever, you know that as well as I do. You never win a war against terror. Terror will always be there. You try to keep it, you know, encamped the best you can, circumscribed as best you can, but it's always going to be there.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: You said something earlier, how because of you and others, and the experiences -- and I'm thinking Japanese Americans -- because of that experience, that prevented something worse from happening to, especially after 9/11, to Muslims and possibly Arab Americans. I guess I'm trying to get a sense of how, how that all worked. I mean, when you were in these behind-the-scene meetings, were there people actually advocating in high government levels that something like the camps --

LH: Oh, of course.

TI: -- would make sense?

LH: Definitely. There are always people, you have fanatics in every government, I mean, every administration.

TI: Now, did they have a sense --

LH: And even more so now. We happen to have a group of people going all the way back to when Ford was president, when Cheney and Rumsfeld were in the White House, where executive power shrunk because of Watergate. And then after that, I hate to say, under Iran-Contra. I don't say "I hate to say," because Reagan was, was a bit like Nixon when it came to that, not, let's say, ignoring the Constitution, ignoring the Congress. But President, Vice-President Bush, who I think extremely highly of, was somewhat involved in all of that. But through those individuals like Abrams, and Perle, and Addison, those far right-wing Republicans, some call them neo-conservatives, but they've been conservatives, and they're neo, but they're not new in the sense that they're younger new. They're the old crowd, ever since Cheney and Rumsfeld saw the executive power shrunk, they're the ones that have expanded it to the degree that I can truly say is unconstitutional. They have drawn people in like Gonzales, and under Gonzales, Yoo, who is of all places University of Berkeley, draw up executive orders saying, in essence, the president can torture, the president can do anything he wants in this "war against terror," because we are at war. Like I say, the "war against terror" will never end, the war in Iraq will end, so to speak. But these same individuals who claim that, you know, we have no experts around so we can't call on the expertise as, as they said during the Vietnam War. "We don't have the experts." But the experts are there, they're there in the Department of Defense, they're in the Defense, Department of State, CIA and elsewhere, they just don't want to listen to them. It's just like the trouble that CIA Tenet got into. They don't want to listen to the facts, the White House. They want the books cooked so that they can formulate policy based on, supposedly, what the intelligence community has uncovered. One man of integrity was Powell; he always has been, always will be, and still is. And he was sucked into this, but he truly believed in Tenet and others, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. At the minimum, developing them, chemical and atomic and nuclear, getting things from Africa, so they crucified that former ambassador and his wife who was a CIA officer. They would crucify anybody who opposed them.

TI: Now, so I'm wondering, though, behind the scenes -- and I'll use an example, Secretary Mineta, when he was on the cabinet. Did, by his presence and his experience, behind the scenes, did he help moderate the actions of the Bush administration?

LH: Let me lecture you for a moment. First of all, as much as I respect Mineta, and the first Nikkei to become a cabinet member in two cabinet positions, just recently receiving the highest foreign decoration from the Emperor of Japan because of what he's done for Japanese American relations. They aren't gonna pay any attention to this guy, "What's his name? Mineta? Oh, he's the one that looks Asian."

TI: But he was Secretary of Treasury -- or, I mean, Transportation during...

LH: Okay, now this is where the lecture comes in. You have the inner cabinet, the powerhouse, the others are peripheral. The power is in the inner cabinet. You have the inner cabinet, when JFK barely won the election against Nixon, he filled three of the four powerful cabinet positions, the inner cabinet, with Republicans. And I'll tell you who they are in a moment. And Bush becomes president only because the Supreme Court is Republican-bent, and Republicans believe in states' rights, did not allow Florida to exercise its rights, and interferes, and selects Bush as president. And he wins by a margin, didn't really win at all, and he says, "I'm going to be magnanimous and have Democrats." One, and not of the inner cabinet. Department of State -- in fact, within the government, I never say I'm a member of the Department of State, I say I'm a member of the Department. 'Cause it's the Department. It's the number one department. The first cabinet member to be in the succession line is the Secretary of State. The power is with the Secretary of State, Defense, Attorney General or Justice, and Treasury, those are the four. And of course, the National Security Council, National Security Advisor, but that's not a cabinet position, so to speak. Those are the powerhouses, those are the ones that make policy, not Mineta, not the postmaster general, even though they're now only peripherally with the government, or Commerce. They're all important, don't take me wrong, we would jump at a chance to become Secretary of Commerce, wouldn't we? Or Secretary of whatever. But they are not of the inner cabinet.

TI: And so unless you're, what you're saying is, unless you're part of that inner cabinet, your voice really isn't that powerful, it's not heard. And yet you, in your career and post career, have agreed to serve on these commissions, consult, and I'm sure you're doing it out of a sense of trying to make our government better.

LH: Of course.

TI: So in some ways, it all helps somehow, right?

LH: Oh, somehow or another, right, you all hope that, everyone in government hopes that they exercise more power than they have, or more influence than they have. But realistically speaking, that's where the power lies. All the others, it helps, certainly it does. I mean, look at what this administration has done on our environment. It just kills me to think what we have done over the years have been destroyed from the moment Bush becomes president, he won't join the Kyoto Treaty, he removes himself from other treaties. And even -- I'm sorry, I've forgotten her name -- former lady governor of New Jersey who becomes environmental chief.

TI: Right...

LH: And she quits, because, you know, she's trying to maintain the minimum or improve it a bit, but instead, they're just cutting it away.

TI: Right.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So I'm going to switch gears here, because we only have a few more minutes on this tape. Taking a, sort of a step back, I mean, you know the Nikkei community, you sort of grew up, and yet, at times, you're a great observer of the Nikkei community because you've, you're not necessarily always in it. And so from your perspective, when you look at Japanese Americans and its sort of evolution over the generations, where do you see, what do you see happening to the Nikkei community. When you look at your son's, sort of, generation, and the following generations, what thoughts do you have about that?

LH: I'm ecstatic. I see them not just joining all professions, but becoming leaders in any number of professions. And what I see amongst younger Americans is they look at the person, they very seldom look at the face. They, they think of the worth of the individual. And I think right now, the difficulties I had in my marriage as far as relatives are concerned, and my son, who's forty-five, though like of that generation has lived with various young ladies for years at a time, is finally, for his first time, getting engaged, has gotten engaged, is getting married in January, a very prominent family from Arizona, we have met the family. And you know they are accepting me as a human being; they're not looking at me as an American of Japanese ancestry. They're interested in my background, they want to know more about it, but their association, and true interest in me is as a human being, as the father of this young man that their daughter is going to marry. And I see, whether it's Secretary of Transportation or Commerce or whatever role that Mineta had, you had General Shinseki, a Sansei, I guess, screwed by the President and Rumsfeld, because he says, "No, we've got to start with several hundred thousand troops in Iraq." No second term for him, and it's traditional that the, they get a second term.

TI: As Army Chief of Staff.

LH: As Army Chief of Staff. What else can you mention? Oki, Mr. Oki? I don't know the guy, but Microsoft? I mean, I don't know if he's a billionaire, but, you know, he's got more money than all of us will ever even think about. Whether it's in the sciences... even in my generation, though, I think of the Ueki brothers, and I think of Calvin Ninomiya, I think of any number of others, whether it's in academia, in the sciences, did well. If they weren't of that generation, they would have done extremely well. And I've never regretted the fact that I didn't become an ambassador. I mean, I don't feel that it was a glass ceiling. It might have been, to speak honestly. But to obtain the rank of consul general, which it literally is, I am the Honorable. I never use that title. It's just like Helen Amerman, our teacher in camp, she doesn't use "Dr." She's a Ph.D. from Chicago, University of Chicago. Man, that's tough in those days. And, but she said, "But there, only medical doctors are called doctors." Well, many Honorables don't use the title either, but legally I am. And the wedding invitation that was just issued by my son's fiance's family shows me as the Honorable. But, you know, could I, should I have been an ambassador? Could I have filled the shoes of an ambassadorship? Well, maybe to a minor country, not to a major country. Literally sixty percent or more are political appointees anyway. Only a third or less work up from the foreign service into ambassadorships. Okay, good.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: One last question before we end this. So you're here for the Minidoka Reunion.

LH: Yes.

TI: Why do you come to these? What is it about a reunion of an event that happened sixty-five years ago that makes you want to come back?

LH: Well, I joked about it, I didn't attend the first one they had in the mid-'80s. I, the one they had in '91 here, that Hank Matsubu and Edna Hirabayashi organized, and I was the only speaker, if I recall. I said, "I'm here to see all my old girlfriends that rejected me, so I ended up marrying a haole." I love seeing all my old girlfriends, and Reiko Miura was my favorite, and if Joe Asahara ever sees this, you already know it. And you know, Naoko Anzai and some of the other girls I used to dance with and date and liked a lot. And just to see the guys and gals that I knew in high school, and to speak honestly, if you're in good health and you've done fairly well in life, well, you want to see your old friends. If you failed and you're in a wheelchair, maybe you don't want to attend. I think there's that aspect of it as well that we all have to be candid about.

TI: Well, good. Well, thank you so much, Lucius. I mean, you have been candid, this was an excellent interview, and I really enjoyed this.

LH: I appreciate it very much.

TI: Thank you very much.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2007 Densho. All Rights Reserved.