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Title: Gordon Hirabayashi Interview IV
Narrator: Gordon Hirabayashi
Interviewer: Tom Ikeda
Location: Seattle, Washington
Date: February 17, 2000
Densho ID: denshovh-hgordon-04-0003

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TI: During this period of time, it would be, it was unusual to have an interracial couple. Was that a concern of yours as you were starting to become more involved with Esther at this period? Did you two talk about this?

GH: Yes, we did. Our relationship, if it continued, could end up with marriage, which meant interracial marriage. And while that was legal, in some states I guess it wasn't. But while it was legal, there were a lot of problems involved because of feelings, public feelings. And in terms of public feelings, that was on both sides. And for example, my parents, when they first heard of this were a little alarmed because of the reactions, like my parents expected from their friends. And in fact, when they came aboard our relationship, it was because they had the experience of trying to explain, trying hard to explain what's happening and how come we're in this relationship. And in spite of knowing about it's difficulties and problems, and by trying to figure out different ways of convincing their friends that this was quite a natural sort of development, and if the persons were good persons, they could be supported. That sort of feeling crept into my parents as, because of their effort to try to get their friends to understand it. They convinced themselves first, I guess, in the process. And so my friends were supportive. They had the advantage of knowing the Schmoe family. They...

TI: But going back to your parents, did they ever have a heart-to-heart talk with you about their concerns, or what they thought might happen if you continued this relationship?

GH: Yes, they told me the general public concerns. And they told me that they had no objections to her, except they weren't sure how realistically she realized what she's getting into, nor me. They, you know, it's a first for both of us, so they wouldn't know. But my parents had a few friends, and they were mostly aware of the public reactions. And so they were concerned about that.

TI: And when you say public, the general public, or the Japanese community reaction?

GH: Well, first the Japanese community reactions. Those are the ones that they knew about. They knew the general public reaction would be negative, very strongly so, especially during the war. But the war just fed on the prejudice that was already there. So that was the one of the things, one of the important early part of our relationship.

TI: And how about Esther's parents? When you talked with them, how did they feel about the relationship?

GH: Yeah, well, I'm not privy to the general feelings from the beginning. In principle, they were completely for it. In principle. To have their daughter involved in it, I think they had some concerns. Particularly, she being only twenty, how much she was aware of what she's getting into. Well, so as far as that goes, I guess this is a concern of anybody getting married. I mean, that's a big experience, and it's fraught with all kinds of problems. And every parent has concerns, how it would work out. And whether the kids understand what they're getting involved in. And no matter what is said by either side, the parents or the couple that's getting involved, they're going to have to learn a lot of things.

So we, we were -- you know it was one thing, we knew that there would be no problem with the principle, the idea of the intermarriage. If the persons were ready and were in love and so on, they had no difficulty with that. They had this additional problem with their young daughter, whether she was -- in fact, Mrs. Schmoe wrote me a very nice letter about how much she personally approved of me. She did have some concerns as to, she was aware of how much she, my future wife was, felt that she loved me. But, the mother wasn't sure that, whether it was a full scale, visible love, or hero worship. Because among the Quakers, the stand I was taking was regarded as an inspirational point to the whole meeting. They are, their position is peace making. And any peacemaker, any opposition to war-making was a positive point, and so, and here I am in prison -- or in jail at the time -- and so I was, I was kind of a inspirational light to those people. I realized that I was playing that role. But now, her mother was thinking, now to what extent is she marrying this symbol, or is, and to what extent is she marrying this particular person? And she wanted very much for the relationship to be secure and sound. So she had a concern on which, which, if they were different, she was. So she expressed that to me, and I appreciated very much receiving that letter, and I shared her how much -- I didn't have to face this hero thing because I was there. [Laughs] And I never looked at myself as a hero, but I appreciated the support that this, the Quaker community and other supporters of my position gave me. It meant a lot to me. And I didn't want them to be feeling that they owed their support to whatever relationship I had with Esther, to the fact that they supported me. That's another thing.

And in fact, one of the very difficult questions that a, one Quaker asked me was, "You know, I've known Esther since she was a little girl coming to our meetings and she's a nice person. And I've seen her grow, and I admire her a lot. And, of course I know the family very well, and I've got to know you very well. And so I'm convinced myself that the two of you have thought about this as much as anybody could think about this at the time before they go into it, as much as anybody could think about, I know you have done it. But, what about, what about any children you have? They won't be involved in any question, and they're going to face certain things. Is it fair to bring any children in?" And boy that was a whopper. I didn't know, I don't know anything about fairness to children and so on. And so that really floored me. It took me several days to get a bearing on this so that I could comment intelligently. Then it occurred to me. If I just step back a moment, to what extent would that question be a valid question to any parent having, getting married, what about children? Is it fair to bring a child into this world? This world of prejudice, and this world of war, and this world of hunger and so on? What about that? And so having given this little opportunity to get a vision of a broader prospective of being parents, that's the basic question within which intermarriage children would have some additional problems to solve. But the basic, important, overall question is parenting, the responsibility of being parents.

So with that I had a little bearing. I felt that that's a very important question, and we should take that seriously and carefully and as fully as were possible. And so I said, "We intend to do that. And regarding our intermarriage, our child would have maybe additional problems that we should be sensitive about. And we hope to be able to prepare them fully for that event." And to my pleasant surprise, this person wrote back immediately saying, "I was very glad to get that. It gave me a perspective. It gave me a realization of how important this question is for parents in general. And you've convinced me that that is the major question: parenting. And you're adding in your awareness that these intermarriage questions may produce some additional questions. But it's not the make or break questions. That's the early one."

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2000 Densho. All Rights Reserved.