Densho Digital Archive - Gordon Hirabayashi Interview III

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So Gordon, we're going to start. But before we start today's interview, I just wanted to review where we were, where we stopped at the last interview. Yeah. Today is December 5, 1999. I'm Tom Ikeda, the primary interviewer. To my right is Alice Ito. And at camera is Dana Hoshide. And this is the third interview that we're doing with you. But the second interview, where we ended up was, we ended up May 1942, and this was right after the, you turned yourself in to the FBI. And you were in, at this point, in the King County Jail.

And so I thought where we would start, is to actually talk about some of the visitors you -- you had in the King County Jail, because in the course of the first five months, while you're waiting for trial, you had several prominent visitors visit you while you were in jail. And so I thought we would start first with, with Floyd Schmoe. And if you could just say a little bit about Floyd and who he was. And first start -- starting off who he was in terms of locally, some of the things that he was doing, and then talking about sort of the, the personal connection with you.

GH: Floyd Schmoe was a World War I pacifist, conscientious objector and a pacifist, and a native -- well, native-born I was going to say, but he's really born as a Quaker. We make a distinction, those who came in, like I did, convinced Quaker, or those who were born to Quaker family. He was one of those. And in Wichita, Kansas, and then he got his final degree in forestry in the, in University of Washington. So he ended up living in Seattle. He was the father of the person who became my wife in my first marriage. And he was, to many non-Quakers, he was "Mr. Quaker" to the outsider. He was very active in social activities and projects. And as a conscientious objector in Europe during World War I, he participated in a number of activities like medical corps that was independent of the military.

TI: Now, how did you come to meet him?

GH: Well, he was on the faculty at University of Washington, Forestry. And also when I was a, a student and among the leader group organizing speakers and advisors for others interested in conscientious objector position, we would contact different people of, among whom were Quakers. And so in that process, I ran into him. And then later some of us, including my roommate and I, Howard Scott and I, would frequently visit the groups from which our speakers came. And so we found ourselves visiting the Quaker group among others. And then eventually we found ourselves becoming relatively regular attenders at the Quakers, which led to the question they raised, "Have you thought about membership?"

TI: Good. So you -- and we went over that last interview. So while you're at the King County Jail, how often did you see Floyd?

GH: Well, Floyd was a very close personal friend and advisor, so I saw him frequently. And he would come in very regularly. So that would -- and, and was, considered himself, and I think he was, a very close personal advisor.

TI: And what kind of things did you talk about when, when he came?

GH: All kinds of things, but in, in this particular situation, he was very active in looking after the concerns that many contacts he made among the Japanese community, following up with some of their concerns, if it had to do with looking up information for them in Seattle area. I got to know him closer as an employee. When the Quakers decided they wanted to do something organizationally, they thought that maybe one good way would be to organize a branch of the American Friends Service Committee that started during World War I and continued during the depression with other minority groups and so on, needs, earthquake and other emergency projects, they would send a team in to help, that sort of thing. And with World War II, the biggest problem in Seattle socially was what was happening to the Japanese Americans. So they formed a regional office with the help of the main office in Philadelphia.

TI: These were the, the Quakers?

GH: Yeah. And Floyd was the first acting secretary.

TI: Right. And another prominent Quaker that came to visit you was Arthur Barnett. Could you talk a little bit about him and your relationship with him?

GH: Well, Arthur was a lawyer. And prior to the war in the Depression days of the 1930s, he put in a couple of long stints working for the federal government in their Civilian Conservation Corps program, CCC, and Work Projects Administration, WPA, with people taking care of erstwhile unemployed people with worthwhile projects. Instead of giving just money, they had projects that could be useful for communities or up in the forests or something. And so he helped organize a lot of that kind of activity, and had just returned to do something in the field of law for which he just got his degree, prior to doing these emergency jobs for the federal government. So he be -- he came on the scene. And I knew of them because I knew his wife through the YWCA, University of Washington YWCA 'cause our YM, that I was a member of, and the YW worked together very closely in terms of speaker programs and that sort of thing, and some of the projects. So I, I had met Art Barnett through his wife, and been a frequent visitor to their home after that because we, we kind of hit it off personally. And in due course, when they had their first son, he was named Gordon. Now, I don't know if I was the sole reason, but I was one of the reasons for the name being picked. And I used to baby-sit him as one of my employment activities as a part-time student.

TI: Well, you must have made a really strong impression on the Barnetts for them to, to name their son after you. There really must have been a really strong relationship.

GH: Well, yeah. It -- even if I weren't the only reason for being named Gordon, it was, it was a warm feeling that I felt. And I felt very close to them all the way through.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So did the Barnetts come to visit you while you were at the King County Jail?

GH: Oh, very, very much so. Art was the legal liaison to the city committee that looked after my case. Another person that we mentioned in our discussion was former Senator Mary Farquharson.

TI: Let's talk about her.

GH: All right.

TI: So how did you meet her?

GH: Well, I met her because she was a very frequent speaker at the YW/YM activities. And she was constantly around because she was an advisor to the YW movement. And so as a liberal democrat, she was on the left-wing fringe of the democratic movement. And so activities like the conscientious objectors were very close to her, too, especially since her husband, a leading electrical engineer on the campus, professor, Burt Farquharson, was a World War I member of the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was so eager-beaver about getting involved in World War II as a part of the Allied team, that he couldn't wait for U.S. to join, and went up to Canada and got accepted in the Royal Canadian Air Force, RCAF, and was overseas before we entered the war, we, as American government, entered the first world war. And when his plane was shot down, he survived, but became a prisoner. And most of the time, I think he had about five -- his active nature forced him into various kinds of escape attempts. And he said he had about five attempts, which eventually ended up behind the camps, POW camps. So he spent his time there, and developed a need, a feeling of a need to energize, harness his energies, his active energy, in ways other than through the military. And --

TI: I'm sorry. This was -- you're talking about the Mr. --

GH: Yes, Burt Farquharson.

TI: But he was, this was -- I'm trying to now -- this was during --

GH: Well 1918, 1917, 1918.

TI: Okay. So this was the, in the first world war?

GH: Yes.

TI: He was in it. Okay, I misunderstood.

GH: So he came out as a prisoner of war, but had come out feeling that if the war, if we're going to get rid of war as a national phenomenon, we'd better do something different 'cause the wars were constantly the seeds for the next war.

TI: So it was his experiences in the first World War I that sort of changed his, his thoughts about war, that led to his support of the CO movement and things like that?

GH: Yes, yes. And so I met him through Mary, but in due course, he, we had him come over to tell us what some of his views, how come he took this new development and so on, and his defense of that position. So he became an active resource person for us.

TI: Now did the two of them or one of them visit you in the King County Jail?

GH: Yes. Mary became the secretary of our defense committee, Gordon Hirabayashi Defense Committee. And in effect, as a senator and as a wife of a professor, she could afford to become like the unpaid executive secretary of our movement. So she was the articulate person who represented us to the public, and did a very positive, phenomenal job all through the war. And we've been personal friends ever since. She came frequently to bring news, including like when she would visit Tule Lake, speak to different groups. She would look up my -- my family, and would come back with reports about what she had exchanged in conversation with them and that sort of thing.

TI: And sometimes she would come, not only with news, but she would come with guests also, and in particular, we talked about her bringing Norman Thomas. And just for the viewer, I'll, I'll say a few things and then you can, you can add more. But Norman Thomas was a, at the time, a well-known pacifist and socialist. He ran for governor of New York in 1924. He ran for mayor of New York City in 1925. And he also ran for the presidency of the United States in 1928 as a socialist. And I think you said even more than just once? He ran several times.

GH: Four times.

TI: Four times for president. But why don't you talk a little bit about what you knew about Norman Thomas at that time, and, and then his visit to the King County Jail.

GH: Being an articulate person, and with quite a bit of materials of -- like his speeches and so on, he was one of my major sources in terms of reading, reading materials. And he was in a, particularly an expert debater. And so when I was spending the summer of 1940 at New York City on a special leadership award I received -- three of us from the university received awards to attend a leadership training course. In the YM/YW circles, it was called the President's School, where officers, the new officers for the following academic year of YM and YW on the campuses. And we had about twenty-five of those attending from various schools in the East Coast mainly. The three of us from the University of Washington were the only ones west of Mississippi, and we spent the summer attending, during the six-week summer school.

TI: Right. And it was during this time that you actually heard him speak?

GH: Yes. There were all kinds of programs going on in New York City on pros and cons of the lend-lease program, in which Roosevelt had developed all kinds of ways by which he and Churchill could count on some American support without America actually entering the war. Eventually, I guess, they -- it became necessary for them to get in, so that American boys could be sent over as well.

TI: And so when you heard Norman Thomas speak, what was your impression of him?

GH: Just as satisfying as you could expect listening to a favorite speaker entering a debating panel with outstanding economists and so on, pros and cons on the lend-lease bill, and making, making you feel sorry for the outstanding economics professor who was being befuddled by the argumentative skills of Norman Thomas. It was a good feeling, actually, since I supported Thomas's bills.

TI: And so how did you feel or what were you thinking when Norman, Norman Thomas requested to come visit you at the King County Jail?

GH: Well, I was, I was very thrilled because if I were outside, I would have an awful time trying to get an appointment to see him. And here he comes in with some of my backers because he wanted to express his personal support, personally. And I was able to tell him, this is the first time I'm visiting someone whom I voted for four times, three times at that time. And I think I voted for him one more time before he finally withdrew. But he used to say, "Well, I didn't, I never entered the race to, thinking I was going to win. But I wanted to get some of my viewpoints across. And in the debates as a candidate, I was able to get across several important issues that worked its way into the winning elected persons' programs. So I felt that it was worthwhile."

TI: And were these comments that he made during the meeting with you, or was this later on that he --

GH: Well, some of it. Some of it we talked about, but it was not a long conference. But he took the time to want to come in. It takes a little red tape to come in to see a prisoner. And, and at the time, well, I didn't consider myself a special prisoner, but to the government it was. He was potentially a dangerous person, and they figured, and so, but at the same time --

TI: When you say potentially dangerous, because of his political beliefs you're --

GH: No, of me.

TI: Of you. Okay.

GH: Yes. So you know, they, they'd have to approve a visitor.

TI: I see. Okay.

GH: Not just somebody coming in. But he used to have an influence, even though he wasn't elected. If he would call one of the senators, and say, "I hear of somebody in your constituency who reports that this kind of treat -- prison treatments are, is occurring, I wonder if you would care to inquire into whether that's a valid complaint that this person had raised or not?" And that would cause the senator to call up the federal prison, the particular federal prison, to say, "I was, I want to ask about this because of one of my constituencies, and into this particular issue." And just the very fact that a call comes in from the Senate is enough to really get everybody scurrying around. So if anything needed to be done, it was usually done with just an inquiry.

TI: Right.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: And I think later on we're going to get to that because it, it happened, I think, with McNeil Island, some of things. Let's move on because there was another visitor that, that came, and that was Bayard Rustin, an African American, Quaker, socialist, later on a civil rights activist. During this period worked on the behalf of interned Nisei during World War II, and later worked with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Why don't you talk a little bit about, about Mr. Rustin and what, what he was doing.

GH: He was one of these very articulate speakers, and was in great demand at student conferences. And I met him at one of the conferences. And when you meet somebody like that at a conference, you're only passing through as far as the numbers of people he meets. He later, as you mentioned, participated in other kinds of important movements, in particular Martin Luther King's movements. And I think he was one of the important resources that led to Martin Luther King following a nonviolent-type approach and encouraging that kind of method for people. Everybody has to be trained, whether it's in nonviolence or in violence. You have to go through training. But the advantage of nonviolence is you don't have to have a lot of equipment that most nonviolent people couldn't afford. But they could certainly learn how to, when you're attacked, how to bend over in such a way that you can protect your soft parts, and also to present your program without trying to agitate or anger the opposition, but trying to get across. And that's what was very impressive in, in terms of Martin Luther King's programs of quiet sit-ins at restaurants, and so on, and the bus march. People just walking beside the bus lines instead of taking a ride, that sort of thing.

TI: Right. But going back to Bayard Rustin, how well did you know of Bayard Rustin when he came?

GH: I, I knew of him quite well because he was in a number of leadership seminars and so on, and I was at some of them. He himself took positions on his draft status, and had spent time as a prisoner as well, so that he spoke not only theoretically, but out of personal experience.

TI: And so when he came to visit you, what, what did the two of you talk about?

GH: Oh, I can't remember the particulars. We must have talked about a number of common experiences, of conferences that we might have crossed paths before, and other kinds of inquiries he made about what kinds of personal abuse, if any, I had run into, and so on. And I could say in that respect, I had very little to report of sensational information to him. Since I was -- one of the persons you mentioned was Art Barnett. And he was my personal legal counsel, counselor. And he told me when I was entering prison, really for the first time being behind the bars, he said, "You know, you're going to run into a lot of people who may be violators of the law or accused of violating the law, but who may also be patriotic. And they might take offense at the fact that you're refusing to participate in the selective service system, and take offense. So be careful. Some of them might take offense at what you're doing." And so I had that in mind and was wary about possible attacks, but I ran into nothing of that type. The inmates were very, very friendly. If it depended on them, I would have been a free man.

TI: How did the inmates feel with all these prominent visitors coming to, to see you?

GH: Well, they wouldn't know of some of them, of the prominence of some of them. But in a number of different ways they, in due course after about six weeks that I was in there, and our nominal leader who spoke for us to the officials, and when we had a request, a grievance, or something, who represented us to the jail staff, they insisted that I become the next mayor. That's what they called the inmate spokesman. And I said, "Well, I don't, I don't agree with the way you're running these things. I support them in some of their activities, but I don't think I'm the one to do that for you. You get somebody else." Well, they came back and said, "They all think that you're the best one that should represent us, and so we don't have any alternate candidate." And this went on to a point where really they were putting the pressure on me. And so I said, "Look, I'm not sure that I'm the one that should do that, but if you think, if you think I ought to try, I'll make a proposition with you. I'll take the position for a week. And at the end of the week, we'll assess whether I should continue or not. And I'll do it my way, and a lot of you people won't like it 'cause I'm, I believe in non-violence and I believe in negotiating for things, even if I'm not getting too far. And I want to, that's what I would do. And I don't want to follow the tactics of the kangaroo court that have been used in the past. Somebody else will have to do that. I don't want to do it because I don't think that's very productive." So they says, "Well, that's fine. You do your own thing, and we'll support it. And if we don't support it, we'll let you know." I, I had to step down after five months because I got kind of tired. And those people really supported me, whatever I suggested. So that in fact, we had a very good period of five months of fairly good negotiations with the jail administration regarding some of our grievances and so on.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Well, you mentioned five months, and five months is a long time period to be at the King County Jail. Usually that's more like a holding pen for people, rather than a long-term...

GH: That's right.

TI: ...place for confinement. How did you keep yourself going? I mean, sort of, I mean, it must have been a very difficult time because you didn't have outdoor privileges. You were pretty much cooped up.

GH: That's right. I'm cooped up, but I always felt that if I weren't here, I'm probably going to be at Puyallup or someplace behind barbed wires, not only cooped up, but in a little more normal-type community of age gradation, both sexes present, and things, in many ways a freer type of life within the barbed wires compared to the jail block -- the tank, as we called it. But these were difficult periods. And I was there for longer periods because most of my time is what you might call dead time. We were waiting for a hearing or for a trial. And so my first trial came five months after I was thrown in. And then --

TI: Before we get there, I just wanted to establish that, I mean, it's probably normal for someone to be in the King County Jail would be to actually, while they're waiting during this dead time, to actually go out on bail. And why don't you talk a little bit about that because the options they gave you to go on bail, you refused, and you decided to stay at the King County Jail.

GH: Well, they set bail first at $500. And my backers said, "Well, that's no problem. We can raise that any time if you want to go out." And so at my arraignment, where we plead no guil -- not guilty to violation of law on the grounds that we were not given a legitimate accusation of breaking the law, they said technically I violated the law. But the reason why I was involved and placed behind jail was because I stayed out after 8 o'clock, and I moved more than five miles from my home without permission. But I clearly demonstrated to the interrogating FBI officer that he did that, too. Because I said, "Did -- were you out last night?" And he said, "Yes." I said, "So was I." It didn't occur to him, even when I was describing these behavioral comparisons, similarities, that we were doing the same things. He said, "That's a violation. You shouldn't have been out. Or you should have gotten permi -- permit before going beyond five miles." But he didn't think he had to do it. And the main reason was, he wasn't of Japanese ancestry. And that's what I was objecting to. Well, the same thing with bail. I asked the judge, if, if my backers posted bail, which they said they would have no trouble doing, would, would I be released out the front door like anybody else who posted bail awaiting a trial? And they consulted each other. And he came back and said, "First of all, we raised the bail to $5,000 from $500." And then when my backers said --

TI: Did he give a reason why they raised it from $500 to $5,000?

GH: No. He didn't give me any particular reason. I had some guesses and so on. But when he said that, my backers said, "That's all right. If we, if they raise even to $50,000, we've got houses that we can post. We're willing to do that, so money is no problem in that respect." And so I said, "Well, if we post bail, whatever your bail setting is, could I be treated like any other prisoner?" And they consulted each other. And then they said, "No, you can't go out the front door because the general has issued a restriction for persons of Japanese ancestry." And I said, "But that's what we're having a trial on. So at least until the court upholds it, the general doesn't make laws. It's not his prerogative. So, and our contention is ancestry is not a ground for further restrictions on my rights as a citizen." So -- and they, the judge, using his prerogative, refused that allowance. So then I said, "Well, then what happens if I post bail and you don't let me go out the front door?" He said, "Well, we'll put you in the first camp, Japanese American camp." So I said, "Well, if that's the case, I'm refusing to go as a citizen. So I'm refusing to accept it as my alternate place." So I stayed without bail for the first nine months.

TI: Right.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Well, before we get to the after the nine months, let's go, so the first five months you were there. Then you, after five months, had your trial, your first trial.

GH: Yeah.

TI: And why don't you describe the trial and what happened. It was a relatively fast trial. But why don't you describe the events that happened of that day?

GH: Well, it happened in October, latter part of October. And it took, well, I guess the selection of the jury and all of that, plus the presentation of the accusation and the defense and the attack -- and incidentally, the government had two, two or three witnesses -- the FBI officer, and the person who was the primary director of the Northwest region of the internment of Japanese, to establish facts. And then they, also to establish fact, the fact that I was of Japanese ancestry -- I had never denied that. But they wanted to make sure that that factor was in there because they felt that that was the key thing. So they had subpoenaed my parents from Tule Lake concentration camp to come in as their witness to prove that I was their child, they are former immigrants of Japan, and therefore, I was of Japanese ancestry. Therefore, I am subject to the orders of the general.

TI: Well, how did it make you feel that the government subpoenaed your parents to the trial from Tule Lake? How did that make you feel?

GH: Well, I didn't mind that at all. In fact, in some ways, I was very pleased that they could testify at my trial. They would never have been able to see my trial. However, they came as the witnesses of the government. And you'd think they'd treat their own witnesses in the fancy hotel or something, or even in a modest hotel. They put 'em in, they put them in jail because they said, "Well, they're not allowed to be in the district freely. Therefore, they have to be under custody." Actually, I learned this later from my, my own team. When they heard that the government was subpoenaing my parents, they asked the government, "Where, where are you going to put them?" Said, "Well, we have to put them in jail because they're not allowed out. We don't want a riot of protestors if we did something wrong. And so we have to put 'em in jail." They says, "Well, they have to be under restriction." "We understand that, but we have, if you don't have any, we have some houses that they could live at within the city, close to appraisal, and you could, if you don't have anybody else, you could deputize these people for the duration of their stay, as deputy sheriffs, and then they'd be under custody." They, if they thought about it for a while, they didn't, it didn't change their views. They said, "No, we can't do that."

And so the first time I knew they were going to be there was one night -- I was still mayor of my tank -- and the night officer brought one fellow in about 10 o'clock at night, and woke, woke some of us up. He was saying, "Hey, where do I put this guy?" And I was just pulling his leg. I said, "Well, why don't you guys bring these prisoners in during the day so we could handle this decently at leisure and so on, instead of in the middle of the night when we're trying to get some sleep?" And then I looked to see who this guy was, who was about half the size of this fairly large officer, and I said, "Hey, that's Dad." It was my dad coming in. And I said, "Well, I've got an empty bunk here, so if you go back and open this cell door, he can walk in."

TI: So it was totally unexpected to have your father --

GH: Yeah. I didn't know that he was going to be at my trial. And he came in. And so we talked very briefly. I said, "You must be tired." So we got -- we'll have plenty of time to talk tomorrow. I'm not going anywhere. And so you take this bunk here. And help you fix the bed and so on. And we'll have a night's sleep. And we'll catch up. So after talking briefly, put him to sleep. And I had -- in many ways, it was a very fortunate break because he never would have understood what my situation was. They were worried, especially my mother, who was placed in the women's tank. There was only one women's tank, whether it was city, state, or federal offense, or for coming in as one of their parties. And so she was in there.

And being generally outgoing and in style, she told me that she walked around, and everybody were talking in knots of two or three or single persons, just reading or... so she just wandered around. And then saw a broken-down upright piano, so she plunked around a little bit. And then played -- nobody was paying attention, so she just played Stephen Foster tunes, "Old Folks at Home" or something. And people began to gather around and started singing. And after a while she got kind of embarrassed, and said, "Somebody else play. All I know are some songs like this and church hymns, and you don't want to hear church hymns, so somebody else play." And says, "No, no. Nobody plays here. You play." They forced her to play some more. So it was a good introduction for her. And in short, she said -- they were there about ten days all told. Ten nights. During the day, sometimes nothing happened and she spent the whole day there. During our hearing, we were in the courthouse. And so when we were leaving, we waited for the, my mother to come down from the women's quarters, and we had to wait about ten minutes. And somebody asked me, "What's holding up the women?" He says, "Well, they said they're helping her get ready, and she'll be down." When she came down, she looked like a queen, hair done. And we didn't know the details of the fingers and so on, but she had a, she had about half a dozen people working on her. First, her first professional treatment. She used to fix herself. She was very experimental and read magazines and so on and would try different things. But it's the first time she had treatment from professionals you know, who, some of them had experience in these areas, and gave her a royal treatment. She came out looking like a queen.

TI: That's good. Was that the first time you had seen her because she was in the women's --

GH: Yeah. And then the rest of that day -- and then I saw her -- I didn't see her again after that day. In the evening --

TI: Out of curiosity, the women that she sort of befriended, or befriended her to help her, what type of inmates would be in the, the women's tank?

GH: Well, they had prostitutes, petty thieves, some of them battery, assault cases. The usual minor defense -- minor offenses. I don't know that there were any murder, murder accusations there at the time or not. But they were the usual, ordinary prisoners awaiting trial. And she knew that they were, some of them were streetwalkers and so on. But she said, "Whatever they are, I never met such warmhearted people." And up to that point, she worried about -- the only thing she read about western jails or places of containment of prisoners was when she read the translation of the Count of Monte Cristo, Victor Hugo's book that came out in summary form each day in the Northern American Times. It's a Japanese paper with a small English section. But she was reading the Japanese serial that came out. And she read about the Count and his prison experiences. So she had an image of those dens that they kept people in the early days, two, three hundred years earlier. And so having this experience, as far as physical handicaps are concerned, she found out that my food was greasy and bunch of cockroaches around and all that sort of thing. But other than that, I wasn't suffering from any personal danger.

TI: So for her to come up to Seattle and see this was actually a relief for her?

GH: Yeah. It was, it was a real benefit in surprise. And then on the other side, Dad, I'm visiting with Dad every day, and getting all kinds of low-downs on the camp experience at Tule Lake. And so, and then of course, he saw that not only was I not beaten up by my fellow inmates, they, you know they would come up and ask, "Hey, can I do this or that," or, "Could you do this?" I'm sort of running the place. And so they couldn't have had a better experience to reduce their concerns about my well-being than that experience. So I thanked them for that in that sense, even though it was an offense against the government, as far as I was concerned, bringing somebody up and putting them in jail, even though they're supposed to be their witness.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: While you were talking to your father, did you talk much about how people at Tule Lake talked about your case and what you were doing?

GH: Well, he, he's just an inmate there. And like most people, he could hear some rumors. He knew that there's a circle of people that gave him respect because his son was in jail, fighting quote in, for their case. And so that sort of thing. But others who would say, maybe not to him but among themselves, "Well, maybe his son should have kept quiet. Rocking the boat is not the way to do things." So you had differences there. But it wasn't totally, they, they weren't treated like pariahs because of me. And in some respects, they heard people say, "Thanks for what your son is doing." When I got a letter from them once -- my mother used to write me once a week in about a half-page typewriter-size paper, just a summary of events. She said when she arrived was -- and was unpacking at Tule Lake, a knock came. And she opened the door, and there were two ladies, dusty, shoes dusty and so on. They had walked from the other end of camp. They were one of the first inmates there from, I forgot what the name of that, nickname of that island was in Los Angeles Harbor where a lot of Japanese fishermen --

TI: Terminal Island?

GH: Terminal Island. And they had been the first ones removed. And so they were the first occupants way on the other end of camp. And they walked about a mile and a half through the dusty road to welcome them. They said, "We heard that the family of the boy that's in jail is arriving today. So we came out to welcome you and to say thank you for your son." And when I read that, I experienced a sudden removement of weight on my shoulders, which I didn't realize I was carrying, ever since the time when my mother pled with me to, she said, "I admire what you've done. I agree with you. But if we get separated now, we may never see each other again. If the government could do this sort of thing, it could keep us apart. So please, come with us. It's important to keep together." And I said, "I'd like to, but I'm in, I'm in the hands of others who are looking after me, and you don't have to worry on that part. I just can't go. I wouldn't be the same person if I went now because I, I took a stand, and I can't give it up." And so even tears couldn't change my views.

But it gave me a sense of guilt on failing to respond as a dutiful son. But I didn't realize I was carrying it. When I read that letter saying, that visit gave me a big lift, that weight left. So I realized that I was carrying kind of a guilt feeling as a son, until I read -- because I knew that standing there next to her wouldn't have given her the same kind of lift. So lots, lots of peculiar encouragement came during my experience of taking a stand. And so I've had no occasion to regret the stand, wishing I had done something different. It's just that I wished I could have done it more dynamically than I did. I mainly, well, I guess it wouldn't make any difference. The stand I took was important to the extent that there were people behind, behind me left in Seattle, and also around the country. And as time went on that increased. And when we had our rehearing forty years later, we found Sansei lawyers taking charge.

<Begin Segment 7>

[Interruption]

GH: -- nobody could have answered those questions in the first place. And Dad was very cautious to say anything on his own, predicting something. I knew most of the things that -- one of my brothers in the film, A Personal Matter, said that the family suffered some antagonism because of my stand. That may have happened in some respects, but it wasn't a prominent thing that hung on them. They, they felt that if anything, they got support and lifting of pride and so on for my staying behind, in spite of their plea to join the family. They, they understood that. So I felt that that part was, I don't think we could add to that. I'm hoping some, some viewpoint --

TI: Well, before you answer, Alice, why don't you re-ask that question, that second question?

GH: All right.

AI: I was very interested in your role as the mayor of the tank while you were there in the King County Jail. And because you had stressed so much to the other inmates that you wanted to take a nonviolent approach and emphasize negotiations, I was wondering if you had thought you converted any of the inmates to your views, and whether you saw any changes over time in their behavior and approach?

GH: It's difficult to say in that kind of atmosphere. I think we had a few fights, disputes, among inmates that I didn't know how to interfere. One Native Indian, very powerful guy, was ready to beat up somebody. And this guy got ahold of one of the, almost like a sledge hammer, a small hammer-like thing, and was ready to defend himself. Using that, it would have been deadly. And that was enough to stave the thing off, and gave me a chance to step in with some alternate attention. But I'm optimistic that there were occasions that they could see, even if they aren't converted, that they could see some alternatives to the violence that, as a method, because we were working out generally a real good era. And I think the jail management was very pleased. They didn't run into any problems. It didn't land on their hands, that they could be resolved here, most of the things. And so that, that part, I think like any other kinds of success, they would probably employ some things in similar situations as an alternative, which they wouldn't have before. They, in a short period like that, in limited circumstances, I don't think you get a major conversion of a way of life on things. We, we had people who went through, members of a conscientious objector camp, who aren't any stronger for that experience. Some have followed that way the rest of their life, but some of the others have just gone back to normal life. So it varies.

I think most people who went through this experience of practicing nonviolence feel there's a merit, though to some extent, it depends on you, how you can carry it out. You have -- and it's like training in any other method. To be a soldier, good soldier, you got to go through a really tough training period. And we have to go through that kind of discipline. It's hard, hard to -- one fellow was explaining to me, he went up and literally applied the turning the other cheek. Somebody was beating somebody down, and he went up and said, "Hey, if you have to beat somebody, beat me. This guy's suffering enough." So the guy hit him down. He got up, and he hit him down again. About three times. And he said in his, "I'm telling you this story instead of being in the morgue somewhere," someplace because after the third one, he sort of gave up. It didn't give him any thrill anymore. But he was carrying out some of the turning the other cheek thing with, with its risks. And it, it depends. Give-and-take takes experience.

AI: Well, I'm also interested that you mentioned, not only did the other jail inmates give you some respect for your abilities with the negotiation work and your work on their behalf as their mayor of the tank, but and they -- also that you had not received any personal abuse because of your conscientious objecture -- objector stance. I was wondering if you received any kind of negativity for your ancestry, being of Japanese ancestry while you were there in jail.

GH: Well, I think so far as influence, that probably pay -- played a greater positive role in attitude change, being elected by the, and operating under the approval, of fellow inmates, to regard issues on the basis of the issue, rather than ancestry of one guy or the other. And, and in some respects, I had a feeling, fleetingly, I had a feeling that in some respects, these guys in jail, as uneducated as many were in the formal sense, and poor, most of them were poor, if they had more money, they would have been out on bail. And their sentence would have been cut down by the legal skills and so on made available. I think these people were probably exercising more democracy than the wealthier people, the normal types of people in the communities. But their way of running things are like most communities. The ones with the power, whether the power is in articulateness or economic background or what, they use that as a power weapon. And it's, it's used there, too. I probably, probably used it some ways, too. Not with my ancestry, but with situations that, where that would be a useful factor, I might have used it. I can't remember -- well, we used different techniques. And in terms of democracy, maybe I was -- when you argue with somebody who is not as articulate, you're taking advantage anyway in that sense. So it's hard to answer that question. But you have to do what you feel. And hoping if it's a useful method, copyable, hoping it'll be copied.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Okay. Why don't we -- actually, we have ten more minutes, so I want to keep and ask this question, just to finish up the trial. But why don't we go back to -- so you've been five months in King County Jail. Then you had your trial, which was a one-day trial. Why don't we focus on the verdict and the sentencing of that trial. So why don't you tell us what the verdict was and what the judge did for sentencing?

GH: The -- in the instructions to the jury, before they recessed into their --

AI: I'm sorry. Are you going to ask about interpreting for his father?

TI: Yeah. Let's let him answer this, and I'll follow-up with that.

GH: His, his instructions -- you know, the jury is told what to do by the judge. And so in my situation, the judge says, "You heard all this discussion about the Constitution and all that. That's irrelevant. Whatever the Constitution says, the thing that you must take into consideration is this Executive Order 9066 issued by the general in charge." And he reads it out. "Now, you're to determine to what extent this applied. Is this person of Japanese ancestry? If he is, did he comply with these restrictions? If he didn't, you must come back with a guilty verdict. If he did, then he's not guilty." They went in. It didn't take them too long. As jury, they probably just took enough time to settle down and then review this, these things, instructions and so on, and say it's pretty cut-and-dried, isn't it? Why don't we take a vote on it before wasting too much time? Because they came out fairly rapidly. And, and then the verdict was guilty. And the judge asked, "Is this the way you all felt unanimously?" "Yep." And so that was it. And then two days later --

TI: Before we get to the sentencing, I just wanted -- because Alice reminded me -- to establish the fact that you were Japanese, of Japanese ancestry, they had your father testify. Can you talk a little bit about that because it was interesting in that they asked you to actually be part of that, or you volunteered to be part of that, that questioning.

GH: Oh, yeah.

TI: Why don't you talk a little bit about that?

GH: Well, the -- my dad was very hesitant, and he never was in a courtroom before. But he was asked some questions, and my lawyer, instead of asking me or anything, he popped up and said, his name was -- by the way, my lawyer was the one that Art Barnett had found and selected as recommended as the one to take the case. He was an older person than the first one, and was suitable for many purposes. He wasn't just of our type. He was a Republican. He was a veteran. And he had interest in the Constitution. So he -- and my lawyer, Art Barnett, thinks that he, he probably had a very close consultative tie with the dean of the gradu -- dean of the law school at the time, who was well-known as a constitutional lawyer. And because he said, "I can't imagine that he would have thought of all these things by himself." He says, "He's getting some source." And my, my feeling, I have no way to know this for sure, is that he has access to the dean. Because we asked, we had hearings on various parts --

TI: And the name of your lawyer at this trial was?

GH: Frank Walters.

TI: Frank Walters.

GH: He wasn't well-known.

TI: But can we -- Gordon, let's go back to your, your dad and the testimony.

GH: Yeah. Well, Frank stood up and says, "Your Honor, I think that to be perfectly fair, we should get an interpreter for him in case some questions are not fully understood." And the judge said, "Oh, of course. Of course. Is there anybody here?" And there is a Japanese minister that knew our parents very well, who spoke Japanese, who came once a month to speak to our dad's group. And his, mainly it was his wife, but the couple was, had a, like a book selling, bible selling, religious books source. Their living room was to some extent like a book store, reference source in a variety of languages. And I thought, I thought he might have been there, and he would have stepped forward as a person. Nobody stepped forward. There were no other Japanese there, for one thing. And so it was quiet.

So I said to the judge, "Well, if he really wants interpretation, I could, I could answer that kind of question." So the judge says, I mean, my lawyer said, "Well, we don't have anybody available here apparently, but if you, if you need somebody, our defender feels that he could translate." He says, "Well, is there any objection to that?" And he asks the government, and the government said no. So I had to translate. And it was a very funny thing because I know that Dad knows what was said, so it was not necessary to translate. "Do you have any other children besides the one in the court case, court here?" And Dad's sort of biting his tongue not to laugh. And he says, "No -- yes." Well, I didn't ask it that way. "Do you have any children?" "Yes." "Is one of them here?" "Yes." "Where is he?" And so he points to me. And so he says, "Well, in regards to that question," I said, "apparently he's confirming that I am his son." And that judge could conclude from that that I am of Japanese ancestry. So I served that part, and it was really like a side show.

TI: That's interesting. Let's go back now to the sentencing. It's two days after the verdict. And let's talk about that.

GH: Yeah, the judge, the judge is -- for all practical purposes, he was like a self-appointed extra lawyer for the defense team. His view was -- and he indicated this in his address to the jury, there isn't much the Con -- you heard all this stuff about the constitutional points raised by the defense. The Constitution wouldn't be very valuable if we lost the war. So first thing we got to do is win the war. And therefore, you can ignore that stuff about the Constitution. That's not relevant to the issue of his guilt. So he, he threw out all the arguments we raised about the Constitution. And we had other hearings on this prior to that, which, on which he took the same stand. And it's difficult for me to understand how he could say that when he's in court. We're not having like in Hawaii, all the, all the civil rights and programs suspended because of the war. We didn't have wartime command and the general running everything because of it declared war, necessity of war. The courts are still operating. So what are the courts supposed to do? And he's, his interpretation was, win the war. And so he said, "Well, the jury has answered. And so, but I feel that this young man has been waiting for this trial for five months, and the maximum is twelve months. So we should take into consideration that he's spent about almost half of that time waiting for the trial. So I feel that the sentence should take that into consideration. And so he's got two charges against him. So I would declare that he be sentenced thirty days for curfew violation, thirty days for exclusion order violation, to be served consecutively, back to back, for a total of sixty days." Now, then he said, "Does the prisoner have anything to say?" And so I said, could he -- I asked my lawyer, "Could he raise my sentence to fifteen days for each of the sentence?"

TI: You mean to raise it fifteen more days for each?

GH: Fifteen additional days.

TI: To make it nine --

GH: Forty-five days, each for a total of ninety days. And neither my lawyer nor the judge asked me, asked me, "Why do you, why are you asking that?" Because I wanted to explain that. But they said, the judge said, "Well, I can, I can accept that easily. I can, I can follow that. Forty-five days plus forty-five days, for a total of ninety days." In fact, he says, "We could simplify the whole thing by saying ninety days for each of these two, to be served concurrent -- "

TI: Concurrently. At the same time.

GH: Oh, yeah. Is it concurrently? Yeah. And no, nobody objected to that. Nobody in the courts knew anything about Supreme Court. Nobody had the experience, including our team. And so that was the thing. And when it got to the Supreme Court --

TI: Gordon, I'm going to interrupt you right now because we need to get you to Bainbridge Island.

GH: Okay.

TI: It's a little bit past 12:30. But thank you, and we'll pick it up later.