<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Well, you mentioned five months, and five months is a long time period to be at the King County Jail. Usually that's more like a holding pen for people, rather than a long-term...

GH: That's right.

TI: ...place for confinement. How did you keep yourself going? I mean, sort of, I mean, it must have been a very difficult time because you didn't have outdoor privileges. You were pretty much cooped up.

GH: That's right. I'm cooped up, but I always felt that if I weren't here, I'm probably going to be at Puyallup or someplace behind barbed wires, not only cooped up, but in a little more normal-type community of age gradation, both sexes present, and things, in many ways a freer type of life within the barbed wires compared to the jail block -- the tank, as we called it. But these were difficult periods. And I was there for longer periods because most of my time is what you might call dead time. We were waiting for a hearing or for a trial. And so my first trial came five months after I was thrown in. And then --

TI: Before we get there, I just wanted to establish that, I mean, it's probably normal for someone to be in the King County Jail would be to actually, while they're waiting during this dead time, to actually go out on bail. And why don't you talk a little bit about that because the options they gave you to go on bail, you refused, and you decided to stay at the King County Jail.

GH: Well, they set bail first at $500. And my backers said, "Well, that's no problem. We can raise that any time if you want to go out." And so at my arraignment, where we plead no guil -- not guilty to violation of law on the grounds that we were not given a legitimate accusation of breaking the law, they said technically I violated the law. But the reason why I was involved and placed behind jail was because I stayed out after 8 o'clock, and I moved more than five miles from my home without permission. But I clearly demonstrated to the interrogating FBI officer that he did that, too. Because I said, "Did -- were you out last night?" And he said, "Yes." I said, "So was I." It didn't occur to him, even when I was describing these behavioral comparisons, similarities, that we were doing the same things. He said, "That's a violation. You shouldn't have been out. Or you should have gotten permi -- permit before going beyond five miles." But he didn't think he had to do it. And the main reason was, he wasn't of Japanese ancestry. And that's what I was objecting to. Well, the same thing with bail. I asked the judge, if, if my backers posted bail, which they said they would have no trouble doing, would, would I be released out the front door like anybody else who posted bail awaiting a trial? And they consulted each other. And he came back and said, "First of all, we raised the bail to $5,000 from $500." And then when my backers said --

TI: Did he give a reason why they raised it from $500 to $5,000?

GH: No. He didn't give me any particular reason. I had some guesses and so on. But when he said that, my backers said, "That's all right. If we, if they raise even to $50,000, we've got houses that we can post. We're willing to do that, so money is no problem in that respect." And so I said, "Well, if we post bail, whatever your bail setting is, could I be treated like any other prisoner?" And they consulted each other. And then they said, "No, you can't go out the front door because the general has issued a restriction for persons of Japanese ancestry." And I said, "But that's what we're having a trial on. So at least until the court upholds it, the general doesn't make laws. It's not his prerogative. So, and our contention is ancestry is not a ground for further restrictions on my rights as a citizen." So -- and they, the judge, using his prerogative, refused that allowance. So then I said, "Well, then what happens if I post bail and you don't let me go out the front door?" He said, "Well, we'll put you in the first camp, Japanese American camp." So I said, "Well, if that's the case, I'm refusing to go as a citizen. So I'm refusing to accept it as my alternate place." So I stayed without bail for the first nine months.

TI: Right.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1999 Densho. All Rights Reserved.