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TI: And I think later on we're going to get to that because it, it happened, I think, with McNeil Island, some of things. Let's move on because there was another visitor that, that came, and that was Bayard Rustin, an African American, Quaker, socialist, later on a civil rights activist. During this period worked on the behalf of interned Nisei during World War II, and later worked with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Why don't you talk a little bit about, about Mr. Rustin and what, what he was doing.

GH: He was one of these very articulate speakers, and was in great demand at student conferences. And I met him at one of the conferences. And when you meet somebody like that at a conference, you're only passing through as far as the numbers of people he meets. He later, as you mentioned, participated in other kinds of important movements, in particular Martin Luther King's movements. And I think he was one of the important resources that led to Martin Luther King following a nonviolent-type approach and encouraging that kind of method for people. Everybody has to be trained, whether it's in nonviolence or in violence. You have to go through training. But the advantage of nonviolence is you don't have to have a lot of equipment that most nonviolent people couldn't afford. But they could certainly learn how to, when you're attacked, how to bend over in such a way that you can protect your soft parts, and also to present your program without trying to agitate or anger the opposition, but trying to get across. And that's what was very impressive in, in terms of Martin Luther King's programs of quiet sit-ins at restaurants, and so on, and the bus march. People just walking beside the bus lines instead of taking a ride, that sort of thing.

TI: Right. But going back to Bayard Rustin, how well did you know of Bayard Rustin when he came?

GH: I, I knew of him quite well because he was in a number of leadership seminars and so on, and I was at some of them. He himself took positions on his draft status, and had spent time as a prisoner as well, so that he spoke not only theoretically, but out of personal experience.

TI: And so when he came to visit you, what, what did the two of you talk about?

GH: Oh, I can't remember the particulars. We must have talked about a number of common experiences, of conferences that we might have crossed paths before, and other kinds of inquiries he made about what kinds of personal abuse, if any, I had run into, and so on. And I could say in that respect, I had very little to report of sensational information to him. Since I was -- one of the persons you mentioned was Art Barnett. And he was my personal legal counsel, counselor. And he told me when I was entering prison, really for the first time being behind the bars, he said, "You know, you're going to run into a lot of people who may be violators of the law or accused of violating the law, but who may also be patriotic. And they might take offense at the fact that you're refusing to participate in the selective service system, and take offense. So be careful. Some of them might take offense at what you're doing." And so I had that in mind and was wary about possible attacks, but I ran into nothing of that type. The inmates were very, very friendly. If it depended on them, I would have been a free man.

TI: How did the inmates feel with all these prominent visitors coming to, to see you?

GH: Well, they wouldn't know of some of them, of the prominence of some of them. But in a number of different ways they, in due course after about six weeks that I was in there, and our nominal leader who spoke for us to the officials, and when we had a request, a grievance, or something, who represented us to the jail staff, they insisted that I become the next mayor. That's what they called the inmate spokesman. And I said, "Well, I don't, I don't agree with the way you're running these things. I support them in some of their activities, but I don't think I'm the one to do that for you. You get somebody else." Well, they came back and said, "They all think that you're the best one that should represent us, and so we don't have any alternate candidate." And this went on to a point where really they were putting the pressure on me. And so I said, "Look, I'm not sure that I'm the one that should do that, but if you think, if you think I ought to try, I'll make a proposition with you. I'll take the position for a week. And at the end of the week, we'll assess whether I should continue or not. And I'll do it my way, and a lot of you people won't like it 'cause I'm, I believe in non-violence and I believe in negotiating for things, even if I'm not getting too far. And I want to, that's what I would do. And I don't want to follow the tactics of the kangaroo court that have been used in the past. Somebody else will have to do that. I don't want to do it because I don't think that's very productive." So they says, "Well, that's fine. You do your own thing, and we'll support it. And if we don't support it, we'll let you know." I, I had to step down after five months because I got kind of tired. And those people really supported me, whatever I suggested. So that in fact, we had a very good period of five months of fairly good negotiations with the jail administration regarding some of our grievances and so on.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 1999 Densho. All Rights Reserved.