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TI: So did the Barnetts come to visit you while you were at the King County Jail?

GH: Oh, very, very much so. Art was the legal liaison to the city committee that looked after my case. Another person that we mentioned in our discussion was former Senator Mary Farquharson.

TI: Let's talk about her.

GH: All right.

TI: So how did you meet her?

GH: Well, I met her because she was a very frequent speaker at the YW/YM activities. And she was constantly around because she was an advisor to the YW movement. And so as a liberal democrat, she was on the left-wing fringe of the democratic movement. And so activities like the conscientious objectors were very close to her, too, especially since her husband, a leading electrical engineer on the campus, professor, Burt Farquharson, was a World War I member of the Royal Canadian Air Force. He was so eager-beaver about getting involved in World War II as a part of the Allied team, that he couldn't wait for U.S. to join, and went up to Canada and got accepted in the Royal Canadian Air Force, RCAF, and was overseas before we entered the war, we, as American government, entered the first world war. And when his plane was shot down, he survived, but became a prisoner. And most of the time, I think he had about five -- his active nature forced him into various kinds of escape attempts. And he said he had about five attempts, which eventually ended up behind the camps, POW camps. So he spent his time there, and developed a need, a feeling of a need to energize, harness his energies, his active energy, in ways other than through the military. And --

TI: I'm sorry. This was -- you're talking about the Mr. --

GH: Yes, Burt Farquharson.

TI: But he was, this was -- I'm trying to now -- this was during --

GH: Well 1918, 1917, 1918.

TI: Okay. So this was the, in the first world war?

GH: Yes.

TI: He was in it. Okay, I misunderstood.

GH: So he came out as a prisoner of war, but had come out feeling that if the war, if we're going to get rid of war as a national phenomenon, we'd better do something different 'cause the wars were constantly the seeds for the next war.

TI: So it was his experiences in the first World War I that sort of changed his, his thoughts about war, that led to his support of the CO movement and things like that?

GH: Yes, yes. And so I met him through Mary, but in due course, he, we had him come over to tell us what some of his views, how come he took this new development and so on, and his defense of that position. So he became an active resource person for us.

TI: Now did the two of them or one of them visit you in the King County Jail?

GH: Yes. Mary became the secretary of our defense committee, Gordon Hirabayashi Defense Committee. And in effect, as a senator and as a wife of a professor, she could afford to become like the unpaid executive secretary of our movement. So she was the articulate person who represented us to the public, and did a very positive, phenomenal job all through the war. And we've been personal friends ever since. She came frequently to bring news, including like when she would visit Tule Lake, speak to different groups. She would look up my -- my family, and would come back with reports about what she had exchanged in conversation with them and that sort of thing.

TI: And sometimes she would come, not only with news, but she would come with guests also, and in particular, we talked about her bringing Norman Thomas. And just for the viewer, I'll, I'll say a few things and then you can, you can add more. But Norman Thomas was a, at the time, a well-known pacifist and socialist. He ran for governor of New York in 1924. He ran for mayor of New York City in 1925. And he also ran for the presidency of the United States in 1928 as a socialist. And I think you said even more than just once? He ran several times.

GH: Four times.

TI: Four times for president. But why don't you talk a little bit about what you knew about Norman Thomas at that time, and, and then his visit to the King County Jail.

GH: Being an articulate person, and with quite a bit of materials of -- like his speeches and so on, he was one of my major sources in terms of reading, reading materials. And he was in a, particularly an expert debater. And so when I was spending the summer of 1940 at New York City on a special leadership award I received -- three of us from the university received awards to attend a leadership training course. In the YM/YW circles, it was called the President's School, where officers, the new officers for the following academic year of YM and YW on the campuses. And we had about twenty-five of those attending from various schools in the East Coast mainly. The three of us from the University of Washington were the only ones west of Mississippi, and we spent the summer attending, during the six-week summer school.

TI: Right. And it was during this time that you actually heard him speak?

GH: Yes. There were all kinds of programs going on in New York City on pros and cons of the lend-lease program, in which Roosevelt had developed all kinds of ways by which he and Churchill could count on some American support without America actually entering the war. Eventually, I guess, they -- it became necessary for them to get in, so that American boys could be sent over as well.

TI: And so when you heard Norman Thomas speak, what was your impression of him?

GH: Just as satisfying as you could expect listening to a favorite speaker entering a debating panel with outstanding economists and so on, pros and cons on the lend-lease bill, and making, making you feel sorry for the outstanding economics professor who was being befuddled by the argumentative skills of Norman Thomas. It was a good feeling, actually, since I supported Thomas's bills.

TI: And so how did you feel or what were you thinking when Norman, Norman Thomas requested to come visit you at the King County Jail?

GH: Well, I was, I was very thrilled because if I were outside, I would have an awful time trying to get an appointment to see him. And here he comes in with some of my backers because he wanted to express his personal support, personally. And I was able to tell him, this is the first time I'm visiting someone whom I voted for four times, three times at that time. And I think I voted for him one more time before he finally withdrew. But he used to say, "Well, I didn't, I never entered the race to, thinking I was going to win. But I wanted to get some of my viewpoints across. And in the debates as a candidate, I was able to get across several important issues that worked its way into the winning elected persons' programs. So I felt that it was worthwhile."

TI: And were these comments that he made during the meeting with you, or was this later on that he --

GH: Well, some of it. Some of it we talked about, but it was not a long conference. But he took the time to want to come in. It takes a little red tape to come in to see a prisoner. And, and at the time, well, I didn't consider myself a special prisoner, but to the government it was. He was potentially a dangerous person, and they figured, and so, but at the same time --

TI: When you say potentially dangerous, because of his political beliefs you're --

GH: No, of me.

TI: Of you. Okay.

GH: Yes. So you know, they, they'd have to approve a visitor.

TI: I see. Okay.

GH: Not just somebody coming in. But he used to have an influence, even though he wasn't elected. If he would call one of the senators, and say, "I hear of somebody in your constituency who reports that this kind of treat -- prison treatments are, is occurring, I wonder if you would care to inquire into whether that's a valid complaint that this person had raised or not?" And that would cause the senator to call up the federal prison, the particular federal prison, to say, "I was, I want to ask about this because of one of my constituencies, and into this particular issue." And just the very fact that a call comes in from the Senate is enough to really get everybody scurrying around. So if anything needed to be done, it was usually done with just an inquiry.

TI: Right.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 1999 Densho. All Rights Reserved.