<Begin Segment 47>

TI: And in general, do you have a sense of what percentage of the men answered "yes-yes" versus "no-no" at Tule Lake?

HH: Well, I don't think we announced it especially, but it was only after the segregation went into effect, and people were starting to, ones that were going to be leaving to other relocation centers, that this problem came up. Especially the "yes" people that were leaving, were being singled out by the other camps, that sent their "no-no" people.

TI: Yeah, so I want to ask about this. So here we have a case where, I mentioned earlier how this questionnaire was being administered to all ten camps. And what happened was the ones who answered "no-no," they were being asked or they were being sent to Tule Lake, which was being designated at that point as a segregation camp. So they were going to segregate, in theory they were going to segregate the ones who said "no-no" or who said they were more loyal to Japan than the United States. And so during this process, you had people from the other nine camps, the ones who went "no-no" being sent to Tule Lake. And then there was an opportunity for the ones in Tule Lake who said "yes-yes" to be sent to one of the other camps.

HH: Yes.

TI: And so that way in theory, Tule Lake would just have the ones who said "no-no," and the other camps would just have the ones saying "yes-yes." And it's during this period that you said that things changed at Tule Lake.

HH: Yes, because especially ones from the California area, segregation was made up of all the other nine camps, but the people who were already in Tule Lake, they did not have to leave even though they were "no-no."

TI: And so was it clear, like in your case, so you were "yes-yes," and did the ones who were more pro-Japan, they were giving people like you a more difficult time? Do you recall anything like that?

HH: Well, there was some incidents where some people were beat up in the same block, because those who came from the other areas, other camps, were housed in the vacated... not in one section or anything like that, because there were some vacancies of people that left the camp and others that stayed. So as it got more and more of the segregee people came, they started getting incidents.

TI: So it became more and more, as more and more of the segregees or "no-nos" came in Tule Lake, they got...

HH: They know that they were going to be leaving or whatever, and so...

TI: And in particular, if you were identified as either a JACL leader or pro-JACL, possibly as someone who is going to volunteer for the military, it was those individuals that were perhaps given the hardest time? Is that the way it was?

HH: Well, at the time, there was no combat team or anything like that, the military did not designate that you would be going into the military.

TI: So maybe not the veterans, but the JACL, though.

HH: Yes. They knew who the leaders were in California especially, and I remember one incident -- which was not put in the paper, incidentally -- I just hear things like that, being on the paper, that there was an incident when the trucks came to pick up their boxed crates that they had put their, to load the train I guess, when they leave. I heard several incidents where they said that the truck came to pick up, and then just happened to kind of slip out of the hands, which was done purposely, but, "Oh, gee, sorry." [Laughs] Dropped the crate from the, had to load up the truck and it fell down and broke the crate and things like that.

TI: So these were like the belongings of...

HH: Yes, individuals, because it had names on it.

TI: Okay, so when people were, so the crew that was transporting belongings from the train to the camp, if it belonged to a known JACL leader...

HH: Yes, especially, yes.

TI: ...especially, then sort of "by accident" they would say, these crates would be dropped.

HH: Yes. Just "accidentally dropped."

TI: "Accidentally dropped." But a strong correlation if it's with a JACL leader.

<End Segment 47> - Copyright © 2006 Densho. All Rights Reserved.