Densho Digital Archive - Grant Hirabayashi Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today is January 11, 2006, and we're in the Densho studio, and I'm Tom Ikeda, the interviewer, and behind camera we have Dana Hoshide. And today we have Grant Hirabayashi to do the interview. But Grant, I'm just going to start with the basic stuff, and why don't you tell me when and where you were born?

GH: I was born in a place called Thomas, it's between, located between Kent and Auburn.

TI: And when, when were you born?

GH: I was born 9th of November, 1919.

TI: The 9th of November. That's the same birthday as my, as my wife.

GH: Oh, is that right? [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] Okay, 1919, and what was the full name that was given to you when you were born?

GH: Grant Jiro, J-I-R-O.

TI: Hirabayashi.

GH: Yes.

TI: And when you were born, what, what type of work did your parents do?

GH: Truck farming.

TI: And truck farming, what kind of things did they...

GH: Truck farming consisted mainly of lettuce, cauliflower, celery, and at times the crops did change from berries to peas, tomatoes, etcetera.

TI: And then your father, what was his name?

GH: Toshiharu.

TI: And where did he come from?

GH: A place called Hotaka, Nagano Prefecture, in Japan, and he came over in the year 1907.

TI: Now, do you know why he came to the United States?

GH: Well, he went to a private school called Kensei Gijuku, and many of his friends and relatives did attend Kensei Gijuku. And among the graduates there was a person, I think, who came to the United States, and he wrote back with favorable comments about the U.S. While attending Kensei Gijuku, the master of the school was a Christian, and my father was converted to Christianity. And in Japan, the custom is the oldest son inherits all the property, whereas the others are left on their own. And I think there was another factor; he was reaching draft age, and being a so-called conscientious objector, he came to the United States.

TI: Oh, so there were quite a few factors. One, was there religious persecution if you were a Christian?

GH: Yes. Not persecution, but at least he was very uncomfortable, because all the brothers didn't, relatives were Buddhist.

TI: Okay, so he was maybe ostracized a little bit by being Christian, or it was a little more...

GH: I don't know if he was ostracized, but he felt uncomfortable, yes.

TI: So there was a religious part, he wasn't, I take it he wasn't the eldest son?

GH: No.

TI: And so property would not have been transferred to him.

GH: Right.

TI: And then the third was the draft? Possibly wanting to avoid being drafted?

GH: Yes, uh-huh. And two of his brothers were involved in the Sino and Russo-Japanese War, and he heard about it and he didn't want any part of it.

TI: Now, did any of his other siblings come to the United States before him?

GH: No, no.

TI: So he was the first one?

GH: Yes.

TI: Okay, good. So he came in 1907, and then what did he do when he came to the United States?

GH: I think originally he worked in the sawmill, he worked in the railroad. I think he... worked on the farm, eventually he became a farmer.

TI: And so 1907, then how did he meet your mother?

GH: Well, actually, my mother's brother is married to my father's sister. [Laughs]

TI: Okay.

GH: So there's some relationship.

TI: And was your mother's brother, was he in the United States?

GH: No.

TI: Or this was all Japan?

GH: Yes.

TI: So was this an arranged type of marriage?

GH: Yes.

TI: And so did your father go back to Japan?

GH: No. He, in those days, I think you were able to transfer the koseki, and have a marriage without the presence of the individual. But when they, she came over, they had another wedding.

TI: Okay, and what year did she come over?

GH: 1915.

TI: Okay, so 1915. And going back to your father, what was he like? How would you describe him?

GH: He was a very religious man, and during his spare time, he had Bible, and he would, he did a great deal of reading. He was a very soft-spoken person. He did reprimand us, but I still recall he would quote the Bible. [Laughs] There was no spanking. But he got his point across.

TI: So when he quoted the Bible, was this all in Japanese? Was the Bible he read, was in Japanese?

GH: It was in both Japanese and English, mixed.

TI: I'm curious, when you, when you recall the sayings that he did from the Japanese Bible, do you have a sense of how well that was translated from English to Japanese?

GH: No, not... [laughs]

TI: Or just the philosophy. Could you, do you have a sense that it was a...

GH: It was the philosophy, yes.

TI: ...pretty good rendition of Christian philosophy?

GH: Well, I just accepted what Dad said. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: Tell me about your mother, what was her name?

GH: My mother graduated from high school in Japan, and she came from a very well-to-do family. I don't, I don't see how she was able to find herself on the farm, but she did manage, she raised eight children, so... but she was, one thing that comes to mind is she was ambidextrous, and one day I saw her sewing, and she was sewing, and I knew there was something strange going on. So finally, I asked my mother and she says, "No," she explained to me that she was ambidextrous, so she would be sewing one, and then with the other hand she would come back. And she also told me that during high school, she was on the tennis team, and she did very well because being ambidextrous, she would hit with one hand, and... [laughs] with the other.

TI: Oh, so she didn't have a backhand, she just had two forehands?

GH: Right. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So she was well-educated, so she went to high school, which was unusual for a woman.

GH: Right, at that...

TI: She seems athletic, ambidextrous, and came from a well-to-do family. When she came to the United States to marry your father, do you have a sense that they knew that they were going to stay in the United States, or was there a plan, do you think, to go back to Japan?

GH: Well, judging from the fact that they did not register, (we) were not dual citizens, I think in those days many people when their child was born, they would register with the consulate, and that's how they became dual citizens. In my case, I was not registered, so judging from that, I'm sure that Dad had intended to stay.

TI: Interesting. And I didn't get this, your mother's name was...?

GH: Midori.

TI: And --

GH: My father went by the name of Tom, and my mother went by the name of Grace.

TI: Do you know how they chose those names?

GH: No, I don't know.

TI: And you told me a little bit about her being well-educated, athletic, ambidextrous, but personality-wise, what was your mother like?

GH: Well, all I could say is I admire her raising eight children. [Laughs] And to this day, I don't know how she did it, but we all survived.

TI: So was she the disciplinarian? So when you guys got in trouble, was she the one who...

GH: Oh yes, uh-huh.

TI: ...who kept you in line?

GH: Yeah. [Laughs]

TI: So, let's talk about --

GH: But she was also a very gentle person, and she would, there was no spankings, but it was all words.

TI: And let's talk about your siblings. You said there were eight children?

GH: Yeah.

TI: So why don't we just kind of walk through the siblings, the birth order, in terms of the oldest to the youngest.

GH: The oldest is Martin.

TI: So Martin was number one.

GH: And then I'm number two.

TI: So Grant was number two.

GH: And Helen, who went by the name Kay, then Bill, Ruth, Sam, Dan, and Ted.

TI: And did all of them survive into adulthood?

GH: Yes.

TI: Wow, that's, that's good. And generally, how much age difference was there between you?

GH: There's three years' difference between my brother, with Martin. And others are two, except for Dan and Sam, one.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So going back to thinking about Thomas, Washington, what are some of your early childhood memories of Thomas?

GH: Well, I used to wake up with the sound of the dynamite, that means they were still taking out stumps and they would use the dynamite to blow up the trunks of the tree. So my parents did put in a great deal of work to establish their farm.

TI: Now, was this land owned by your family, or was it leased?

GH: Yes, although it was taken away under the alien land law.

TI: Okay, so originally they, they purchased it.

GH: They purchased it.

TI: And then in the '20s, the alien land laws were enacted and it was taken away during that period. So going back to, to the work that your parents did to clear the land, so this was like, when they bought the land, were there lots of stumps on there? Or was the old growth still there?

GH: It's the old... to me, it looked like the land was clear, but then evidently there was a lot of stumps.

TI: Okay, so they had to clear it first before they could farm it.

GH: Yeah, that's right.

TI: And growing up, what kind of chores or things that, did you have to do? Do you remember?

GH: Well, I wasn't very... [laughs] Because when my mother called my name, I was usually gone. [Laughs]

TI: Now, why was that?

GH: I used to have a bicycle ready to take off when my name was called. [Laughs] I was gone. But I did help when, I used to mow the lawn and, as a child. I worked on the farm like we all did. And, of course, we were paid twenty cents an hour, which we were able to save. But all my savings was gone when the Furuya Bank went bankrupt. [Laughs]

TI: So your parents paid you twenty cents an hour to work in the, in the...

GH: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Was that usual? I always thought that the kids had to work for, just because they were family.

GH: We worked, but Dad, I think he wanted to encourage us to work, and he would, many a time he would double it and put it in the bank.

TI: Oh, that's, that's interesting. And then you put it into the Furuya Bank?

GH: Furuya Bank, yeah.

TI: And then in, and then the bank went bankrupt, or shut down. Do you remember that?

GH: Yeah, I still remember I had twelve dollars. [Laughs]

TI: So how did you feel about that?

GH: Well, I was hoping that, there were rumors that they would pay so much, and I had my fingers crossed, but it never did materialize.

TI: Now, how did that impact your family? I imagine your family had lots of money...

GH: I, I don't know.

TI: So you don't recall --

GH: I don't recall.

TI: -- your parents talking about it or anything like that, or things changing after the bank closure? Tell me about your, the house that you lived in with eight kids.

GH: The house was built in 1919, and I was the first to be born in that house. Of course, as the family got larger, we had a addition in the back. But during the war, it was burnt down. The house currently still stands, but with the front porch missing.

TI: So, so the house is still there?

GH: Yes.

TI: Do you ever go back and look at it?

GH: I've looked at it, yes. It's in ill-repair.

TI: And it must be surrounded by lots of other houses now, or is it still farmland?

GH: No, it's still about the same, yes. (There's) Katsunos, Gordon Hirabayashi and our house, and then there was another house which was occupied by different families.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: And you mentioned the Katsuno and then the other, Hirabayashi family, I guess. Now, your father, did, after he came to Thomas, did other brothers follow? Or how did...

GH: No, Mr. Katsuno bought the land.

TI: Right.

GH: And I think forty acres, and then he kept twenty and we got ten each.

TI: Okay. So you got ten and then...

GH: Gordon's family got ten.

TI: ...Gordon's family got ten. And so Gordon's father was, was your uncle?

GH: Well, actually, it's, let me put it this way: it's the same clan. And we, in Japan, it's a close neighbor.

TI: I see. Okay, so it's not really a blood, a blood relationship --

GH: So, so we have, if we follow our genealogy, it goes back to, I think, in writing we have it about 19-, early 1600s, yeah. But we come from the same, one family.

TI: I see. But then back in Japan, in the village, there was a close, closeness. Did Gordon's father and your father know each other in Japan?

GH: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, they both went to the same school, the Kensei Gijuku.

TI: Okay. So they were almost like brothers in some ways.

GH: Yeah.

TI: Well, and growing up, let's see, you were born in 1919, Gordon was a little bit older than you were.

GH: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Did you do much with Gordon, or how did you know Gordon?

GH: Yeah, well, we used to play. I recall... well, one thing that comes to mind is for some reason, my father always bought a Ford truck, whereas Gordon's father always bought a Chevrolet. And Gordon, when we bought our truck, he said, "Oh, you got another tin-can Ford." I said, "Yeah," and I said, "You got a 'Shove-or-leave-it.'" [Laughs] And I do recall we used to take the car and try to go up to Star Lake. And what we'd do is we'd mark our start and then we'd go up as high, in high gear, and when the motor cuts out, we put the brake and then put a line. And then Gordon would come up. That was one of the games that we played.

TI: So with the trucks you guys had this game to see who can go higher, your Ford versus Gordon's Chevrolet?

GH: [Laughs] Yeah.

TI: And so who would, who would win?

GH: No, it's about the same, yeah.

TI: So the trucks were pretty equivalent?

GH: Yeah.

TI: It wasn't like one was better than the other. That's interesting that there was almost this competition with, with always getting Fords and always getting Chevrolets. That's, that's interesting. What was Gordon like? When you think about Gordon --

GH: Yeah, he was an intelligent fellow, he did very well in school, I know. Well, we played baseball games, used to run around together. Very nice fellow.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Now, how about you? How were you in school? When you think of grade school back then at Thomas...

GH: I was more interested in playing than studying. [Laughs]

TI: So you wouldn't call yourself a, necessarily a good student?

GH: No.

TI: But you were probably a pretty good student.

GH: No. [Laughs]

TI: How about things like Japanese school? Did you go to Japanese school?

GH: Yeah, I went to Japanese school, because I could play baseball. [Laughs]

TI: Because there was a baseball team with the Japanese school?

GH: Yeah.

TI: And that's the reason you went, not for the Japanese language?

GH: Well, I was discouraged. I seldom studied, but there was a day I did study, and when the teacher asked, I volunteered to read. And... I read, "Tefu tefu gatonde imasu." Everybody laughed. Now, 'tefu tefu,' you have to read it as, 'cho cho.' And I said, I said I had enough of Japanese. And I did learn something, I guess, but I wasn't a very good student then.

TI: Well, at home, did you speak mostly Japanese, or was it a combination of Japanese and...

GH: A combination.

TI: Well, growing up as a, as a young child, was your first language Japanese, or was it English, do you recall?

GH: I guess English.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So, you mentioned how your father was religious, and read the Bible. When he came to the United States, was, did he get association with a church?

GH: No. The Katsunos, Gordon's parents and my parents, they called it the mukyokai, which is "non-church." And so what they did was they would hold meetings at different homes. And Grant Murphy, whose name I take, used to come about once a month and would conduct service.

TI: So Grant Murphy was a, kind of a lay-clergy type of person?

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And so he would come once a month and apparently your parents were so impressed with him that they named you after him.

GH: As a matter of fact, he spoke Japanese. He was in Japan as a missionary.

TI: Interesting.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So I, I kind of want to move on, because when you were around twelve years old, you went to Japan. And I wanted to understand how you came to that decision, or how it came to be that you went to Japan.

GH: Well, there was three, I had two close friends named Tom Horiuchi and Kenji Nomura. And the three of us used to chum around. As a matter of fact, Peter Katsuno had said we were the three chipmunks. [Laughs] We were all small in size. And one summer we went fishing, and while we were, the fishing was very poor, and the conversation turned to their visit to Japan. And I was listening and I heard something like you have to take your shoes off to enter the house, people drive on the wrong side of the street, and it just aroused my curiosity. And so I said, if I'm going to be one of the members, I should make a trip to Japan and have the same experience. So the one-on-one occasion with my father was when I got a haircut or when he repaired my shoe, and so whenever he gave me a haircut, I always bring the subject up, and I was very persistent. And finally, I said, "Dad, if you're not going to send me, I'm going to swim across the Pacific," and that impressed my dad.

TI: Going back to what your, your friends said, so both of them had spent about how long in Japan?

GH: Yes, the two had spent summer vacation in Japan, and that's where they got their experience. And I, too, wanted to spend some time in Japan, but my father said, "Look, Son, there's eight of you, and I can't afford to send each of you to Japan during summer vacation." And finally, my father said he would offer me a deal: that if I would study for two years in Japan, then it would be worth my trip.

TI: So your, it sounds like your father was pretty pragmatic. So he knew that you really wanted to go, it really wasn't, I mean, it was expensive for him to do that, but he figured if you really wanted to go and you would be willing to study seriously for at least two years, he would, he would make that investment, essentially. Thinking that it would be a good background for you, because your Japanese at that point wasn't that good?

GH: Right, uh-huh.

TI: And in your mind, did you think of Japan as being this grand adventure, it sounds like? Or what did you really think Japan was going to be like?

GH: I was just curious, yeah.

TI: So do you remember going on the ship to go to Japan?

GH: Yes. Fortunately, my father's friend, Mr. Mizuno, was the captain of Heian-maru, so I did go with him. And I had a third-class ticket, and I stayed in the, at the captain's cabin. [Laughs] So I had a nice trip.

TI: So when you stayed with the, the captain's cabin, what was that like? I've never heard a story of going across in the captain's cabin.

GH: Oh, there was a boy who worked and, I think his name was Yoshio, he would bring food, he would make the bed, and we got, I got a very good treatment, yes.

TI: Was there anything in particular that stands out in your mind about the trip across to Japan on the ship? Anything special that happened?

GH: Well, of course, I would sleep in the cabin and then go down and play with my friends who were downstairs. [Laughs] As I recall, I was a pretty good sailor.

TI: Okay, well, that sounds like a special trip. Now, when you arrived in Japan, what was that like?

GH: Well, of course, I didn't know my uncle, so Mr. Mizuno got the idea, he got a white flag and wrote my name, "Hirabayashi," and I waved the flag. [Laughs] And that's how we made connection with my uncle and aunt.

TI: So who came to pick you up at the...

GH: My uncle and aunt.

TI: And where did they live? I mean, how far did you have to go to their place?

GH: About, it was eight-hours' drive, I mean, eight-hours' train ride.

TI: And how, how well could you communicate with your aunt and uncle?

GH: I guess I was able to communicate not that well, but I'm sure I used a lot of English, but I did manage to get my thoughts across.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Now, do you recall those first days in Japan, what, what can you remember about Japan?

GH: Well, we stayed in Yokohama for a couple days, and we stayed in a hotel. And I, one thing that comes to mind is that they had a bicycle, so I did get on the bicycle and for the first time I was introduced to a bicycle with a hand-brake. And as I went down the hill, I saw my aunt going like this, waving, and so I waved goodbye. And she was getting desperate and I knew there was something wrong so I came back, and then I realized that this means to, bye-bye means to come. [Laughs] The food was different, and of course, people were still wearing a lot of kimonos in those days. And of course, I realized there was many different dialects, which I have never heard before, so I knew I had, there was a lot to learn.

TI: Now, how about your, your clothes and mannerisms? When you think about when you first came to Japan, did the clothes you wear, were they what other little boys would wear, and your haircut and your...

GH: Well, in Japan, we all wore uniforms. And as I recall, they all had to take the shoes off and wear slippers in class. But my teacher was very sympathetic, I wore my hair for a good six months, and he let me wear my shoes. Like only teachers were allowed to wear shoes in class, but I did have permission. But I, when the shoes wore out, I went "native" and had my hair cut.

TI: Well, I'm curious, by you keeping your shoes on and your hair longer, did the other boys tease you? Because I'd think you would sort of stand out.

GH: Yeah, some used to try to tease me. Of course, not being able to respond verbally, I responded physically. [Laughs] Which was a no-no. But as time went on, I was able to communicate, and by then, my hair was short, shoes was gone, and I was wearing slippers.

TI: So when you went to school, what grade did you enter?

GH: I entered fifth grade.

TI: So would you enter, were the boys the same age as you, or were you older because you...

GH: Yeah, I was older.

TI: You were older?

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: And so how long did it take you before your Japanese sort of got good enough so that you could...

GH: I'd say a couple years.

TI: And I'm curious, during this time, did you ever use your English?

GH: No. Well, yes. I had a people like Joe Hirabayashi from Seattle, distant relative, he came over, Gloria, Kunch, Peter Katsuno, and there was others like my brother. So when they came, I spoke in English. So somehow I was able to retain some capabilities.

TI: So in these early teens, you were really truly bilingual? You could still speak English...

GH: I wouldn't say bilingual, but I was able to communicate, yes.

TI: Well, when you say you weren't, I mean, what was your stronger language, English or Japanese?

GH: By the second year, I think my Japanese was stronger.

TI: Interesting.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: What were some of the, like, fond memories of Japan for you? What kind of things do you remember that were like playing or friendships? What do you remember about Japan?

GH: I did enter high school in Japan, and I think the first year I did join the track team. Also, well, for one, all the students were very considerate. I mean, they were very friendly, they were very helpful, and I was able to help them with English, so we did get along very well. The third year, I became one of the moral officer.

TI: Before we go there, I want to go back a little bit. So you went two years in grammar school, Japanese school, and you finished then. And earlier, your father said, "Well, go to school for two years, and then you can come back."

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: So after you finished sort of that grammar school, why didn't you go back to...

GH: Well, I took the exam and I failed for high school.

TI: So, chugakko. You took the exam for that and you failed.

GH: Uh-huh. And that really bothered me, so I tried, gave it another try and I was successful. And when I got in, I called my father to say that I had completed my end of the deal, and I was ready to come home. And that's when he said, "Your ticket will be forthcoming when you graduate." [Laughs]

TI: So let me, so you, you did those first two years, then you took the test for chugakko, you failed, and you failed, actually, a couple times, or one time?

GH: No, one time.

TI: One time. And then you took it again and you passed, and at that point, your father said, well, now that you're accepted to chugakko, he wanted you to continue to go to school.

GH: Yeah, finish, yeah.

TI: So how did you feel about that?

GH: Well, I didn't have any choice. [Laughs]

TI: But then how, but how'd you feel about it? Were you...

GH: Well, I'm glad I stayed, because I did, I made many friends, and I did learn the language, which came in very handy.

TI: But in terms of just your, your feeling, so you're glad it happened, but do you remember when your father said, "You have to stay and finish chugakko," were you sort of happy, disappointed?

GH: Well, I'll tell you the truth, it was very difficult. [Laughs] And I was ready to come home, but when he said the ticket will not be forthcoming until I graduate, I just settled down and did my best.

TI: When you said it was difficult, what were the things that made it difficult?

GH: Especially the Chinese classic was very difficult for me.

TI: So the schoolwork was hard, and you were ready to come back.

GH: Well, those high school, to enter high schools, they accepted 150, there was over 350 applicants. So it was very...

TI: So it was very competitive.

GH: Very competitive, yeah.

TI: Well, what's interesting is, what's appearing is how, how headstrong you are. I mean, your decision to go to Japan, I mean, you wanted to go to Japan. You said you would swim across the Pacific to go there, so your dad let you. And then your determination to get accepted to chugakko, and then, and then sticking it out. I mean, it's pretty, pretty impressive. Did you ever get homesick for your, your brothers and sisters and your mother and father?

GH: Oh yeah, sure, sure.

TI: Did you write very often?

GH: I used to write, and of course, as time went on, my English seemed to fail me. But I did try to write, yeah.

TI: Did your, did any of your, your immediate family members ever visit Japan, like your brothers and sisters?

GH: My oldest brother Martin, he did get a grant to Kyoto Imperial University.

TI: Oh, that's, so he was going to school in the United States, and got a grant to go to a school in...

GH: Well, he graduated from the University of Washington, and matter of fact, he was a Phi Beta Kappa, but there was no work available then. He did serve as a T.A. but you can't make a living as a T.A., Teacher's Assistant. So my father had a friend in Japan, Professor Abe, at Kyoto Imperial University, and I think he got a grant there.

TI: And how well did your brother speak Japanese?

GH: Well, he was there for a very short while. He came in 1940, and when I graduated, he said, "Grant, you better go home." He said the situation between the two countries is such that he would recommend that I go home. So when I graduated, I had a ticket in one hand for trip home, and diploma in the other. And when I asked my brother when he was coming back, he said he was in close contact with the consulate, and that he would return at first notice. So he came back in April of 1941.

TI: So even in 1940, your brother had this sense, he got information from someplace that indicated that there was going to be tension or something happening between Japan and the United States?

GH: He was in close contact with the consulate, yeah.

TI: Do you recall whether or not your brother thought that it was actually going to be a war between the United States and Japan, or what did he say?

GH: He didn't quite say. He said the relationship is such that I should return. I think he did sense that there was a possible, possibility of a war, yes.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Going back to your schooling, chugakko, what type of subjects would you take in Japanese high school?

GH: In high school, well, you have your Japanese, we had moral studies, let's see... Chinese classics, algebra, physics, chemistry, history, and we had military training, which was mandatory.

TI: And so military training would be similar to like an ROTC type of thing?

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: Now generally, students who graduated from chugakko, the ones who went into the military, would they become officers usually, or what...?

GH: No. Well, in my case, there were two who were recommended for... the word slips me now. But in Japanese, the kanbu kohosei, (military cadet), it's something comparable to (OCS). And I was called in by the officer and he said I was recommended. I said, "Thanks, but no thanks." [Laughs]

TI: And that was a big honor, I imagine.

GH: Yes.

TI: You said only two were recommended, so these were two outstanding students that they wanted to, to go to this military school?

GH: School, yes.

TI: And so why did you say no thanks?

GH: I says, "Thanks, but no thanks," because I said, "I'm an American citizen." I did not have a dual citizenship, so I'm thankful because if my father had registered me at the consulate, I would be dual citizen, and as a dual citizen, I'm sure I could not have refused.

TI: So if you had dual citizenship, you said you would not be able to refuse?

GH: I don't think so.

TI: Because why not? I mean, still, you were a U.S. citizen.

GH: Well, you're a citizen and you're ordered, but...

TI: So were you, at that point, when you realized you were not a dual citizen, so you only had U.S. citizenship, and when you could say thanks but no thanks, were you glad that you could go back to the United States, or did you kind of say, well, you wished you could stay in Japan? I mean, what, how were you feeling at that point?

GH: No, I didn't care for the military personally. Although as I recall, he was very, gave me some favorable comments, but I was not cut out for military.

TI: But also you had that information from your brother that there was going to be tension between the U.S. and Japan. Because at the same time you were talking to him, you already had arrangements to come back to the United States?

GH: Yes.

TI: Okay. So how did it, how was it when you had to say goodbye to your friends in Japan?

GH: Well, it was very difficult, but they all understood, yeah.

TI: So how was the trip back to the United States? Was it, did you get the same deluxe accommodations?

GH: I'm sorry?

TI: Did you get the same deluxe accommodations coming back like the captain's cabin?

GH: No, I was the third-class, and I was happy to be able to come back. And of course, it was quite an adjustment to make after being in Japan for eight years. And of course, my uncle thought I was there to inherit the Hirabayashi family. So I was groomed to be the, become the...

TI: The heir of the... so he must have been very disappointed.

GH: He was very disappointed. But I got the royal treatment. [Laughs] So when I came back, I was just one of the eight children, and it was kind of difficult at the beginning, but I made the adjustment.

TI: Well, yeah, I imagine it would be hard. What was it like just with your, your brothers and sisters when you came back?

GH: Yeah, well, for instance, just being called "Grant," whereas in Japan, you always had -san. But I got used to it quickly.

TI: And how did you find your, your English abilities when you first returned?

GH: I know it was very poor, but I was able to communicate. And I went to Kent High School, because there was a precedence where a Kibei or a Nisei who studied in Japan and had a high school diploma, they accepted all the credits. So in my case, I graduated from high school in one year.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: Oh, so you came back in 1940, you were about twenty years old at that point?

GH: About twenty-two, yeah.

TI: Okay, and then you, and all you needed to do to graduated from a United States high school was one year's worth of studies.

GH: Yeah.

TI: And what classes did you have to take in, at Kent High School?

GH: All I took was history, English, I took typing and accounting. Those were some of the subjects I took, yeah.

TI: And how was the adjustment for you to go to a U.S. high school after living in Japan for...

GH: Well, it was quite an adjustment, yes.

TI: So do you recall any incidences or examples that showed how difficult it was or what it was like?

GH: I somehow managed to get by. [Laughs]

TI: Now, were you able in class to pretty much follow what the teacher was saying? Was your English good enough to understand everything that was going on?

GH: Well, I think I did have some problems, there was no question about that.

TI: And during that year while you were going to high school, what else did you do? Did you have to work at the farm, did you...

GH: Yeah, I helped on the farm, yes. As a matter of fact, I used to take orders for, like Safeway and some other stores, and we would make deliveries, yeah.

TI: Did you find that your Japanese skills helped with dealing with other Japanese families in the valley?

GH: Well, actually, I spent one year and I was in the army.

TI: Okay.

GH: So I didn't have much association with the others.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Okay. I'm curious now, so after you graduated from high school, from the United States high school, so you have a high school diploma from both Japan and the United States, at that point did you ever think about where, where did you, where did you feel like you fit in better, in Japan or United States?

GH: That was my problem, yeah.

TI: Yeah, I'm curious because here you had a very... I don't want to say fractured, but a very unusual sort of childhood, living half the time in Japan, half the time in the United States.

GH: I knew I couldn't hack it at the university, although I wanted to continue with my education. And while I was debating, Uncle Sam solved the problem.

TI: By drafting you?

GH: Yeah. [Laughs]

TI: But in terms of just where you felt comfortable, most comfortable, did you feel more comfortable in the United States or in Japan at this point?

GH: At that point, I was more comfortable in Japan, yeah.

TI: And why was that? Why do you think...

GH: Because of the, perhaps because I had enough Japanese background to continue with the higher education.

TI: Now, I'm curious. When, before you left, you mentioned how you did things with Gordon. When you came back (from) Japan, did you, did you ever see Gordon at all? Did you ever talk to Gordon?

GH: Oh yes, uh-huh.

TI: And do you recall what that was like?

GH: Actually, I didn't see Gordon until he came to USC one year.

TI: Oh, so this was after, after the war, that you saw Gordon?

GH: Yeah, yeah.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So, so let's talk about, so you were now, you were drafted. This is 1941, you were drafted by the U.S. army, and you said that solved your, your sort of, your problem, or helped you make a decision.

GH: Yeah.

TI: So what did you do when you were drafted?

GH: Well, when I was drafted, I said to myself, if I'm going to serve, I said, I'd like to learn a trade. So I enlisted in the Army Air Corps, and of course they give you a series of, batteries of tests, and I did qualify for airplane mechanic, so my ambition was to become an airplane mechanic. But when I was transferred to Jefferson Barracks, Missouri, I was immediately taken into what they call protective custody.

TI: Well, yeah, before we go there, and you, your decision to enlist, how did your parents feel about, about you joining the army?

GH: All I know is when I, my father saw me off at the train station at Kent, and he said, "These are very difficult times." He says, "Take good care and do your best."

TI: Okay. So, but you enlisted before the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

GH: That's right.

TI: So this was just like days before, or how...

GH: Three days before Pearl Harbor.

TI: So December 7th, so like December 4th or something, December 3rd or 4th, you entered the army. And where, where was this? Where did you enter?

GH: Fort Lewis.

TI: Okay, so you're at Fort Lewis, and then the first Sunday that you're in the army, you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Where were you when that happened?

GH: Well, December the 7th was the day I was looking forward to because my parents were to visit me. And I think it was on my way back from church when I heard over the loudspeaker that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor, and I said to myself, "Where's Pearl Harbor?" And then I heard that all passes were cancelled and that no visitors were permitted to enter the fort. So I immediately went to the public telephone to advise my parents not to come, and when I picked up the telephone, it was dead. There was no dial tone, the public telephone was disconnected. So I immediately went to the main gate, and I waited for my parents, and we were very fortunate to make eye contact. So we waved and we parted.

TI: Oh, so your parents did come to the fort to see you, they couldn't come in, but you were able to at least see them and wave, and then they left.

GH: Yeah, yes.

TI: While this was happening, how was it for you as a Japanese American at Fort Lewis?

GH: Well, my main concern was about my parents. I said, you know, they're non-citizens, they're "enemy aliens," so to speak, and I just wondered what kind of treatment they would get. That was my major concern, yeah.

TI: Now, were there very many other Japanese American soldiers at Fort Lewis?

GH: I saw several, yes. Because I wasn't there very long, maybe three or four days.

TI: Did you ever talk with the other Japanese Americans about what was happening?

GH: Yes, there was one. I think he lives somewhere (near here), his name's Mike Nagata, yeah.

TI: And what did you think was going to happen to you and other Japanese Americans? Did you think that you would just still be in the U.S. Army and fight like all the other U.S. soldiers, or did you have any thoughts?

GH: Well, of course, when I went to Jefferson Barracks, Missouri, I was immediately taken into what they call a protective custody.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: In the first hour we talked about growing up in Thomas, then going to Japan, then you came back to the United States. You were drafted, and then just days before Pearl Harbor, you were at, you entered the army, you were at Fort Lewis, Pearl Harbor happened, and that's kind of where we're picking up. So I'm curious, how long were you at Fort Lewis before you were transferred?

GH: Less than a week.

TI: Okay, so after a week, and then they shipped you out.

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: So, so let's pick it up there. So what happened next?

GH: I was shipped to Jefferson Barracks, Missouri, and when I arrived, they took me to a barracks and I found out there were twenty-five others in the barracks. And I said, "What is this?" they said, "This is protective custody."

TI: So all the, like, Nisei, or Japanese American soldiers who were in the service, they brought to Missouri? Or at least some of them, and they put them in protective custody.

GH: They were all in one barracks.

TI: So you say "protective custody," to protect you. From whom? Who would you, who would they protect you from?

GH: Well, I didn't understand this, but after the war, Aiko Herzig, she sent me a copy, which she found in the archives, and according to this memo, there was a case where a Nisei was undergoing a physical examination, and the circumstances surrounding him was such that they had to remove him to another room to finish the physical.

TI: So he was, like, harassed or something happened in that room?

GH: Yeah, I guess so.

TI: And so, and so because of that incident, they thought that it would be safer for the other Japanese American soldiers to be under protective custody?

GH: Uh-huh. And also, I think it gave the FBI a chance to check on our background.

TI: Oh, so there was a, perhaps a dual purpose, that they actually wanted to see if you guys were really loyal to the United States. I'm curious, on the trip from, from Fort Lewis to the base in Missouri, did, were there any incidences for you or anything?

GH: No.

TI: Okay, so it was a pretty straightforward train ride all the way.

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay. So in Missouri, what did you do under protective custody? What type of activities?

GH: Well, actually, in the morning we had close-order drill.

TI: And what's a close-order drill?

GH: Oh, it's a forward march, etcetera. Basic training. And we marched to the mess hall under a guard, a sergeant, World War I sergeant. [Laughs] We were marched to the PX. There was no recreational facilities, so we did a lot of reading, we did a lot of exercise. As a matter of fact, the close-order drill was done in the morning as well as in the afternoon, and it was so repetitious that we all memorized it, and all the sergeant had to say was, "forward march," and we went through all the routine, which he found it very impressive. And he brought that to the attention of the commander of the fort, so we actually had a close-order drill in front of the commander of the fort.

TI: Well, when you were under protective custody, what does that mean? Were you guys free to walk around the base?

GH: No, no.

TI: Or were you confined to quarters?

GH: Every movement we were escorted.

TI: So essentially you were under guard?

GH: Yes, yes.

TI: Were they armed guards?

GH: Yes, uh-huh. Just one sergeant.

TI: Well, so how did you guys feel about this? You guys were U.S. soldiers...

GH: Yeah. [Laughs]

TI: And you weren't, it seemed like you really at some point, realized you weren't really being trusted.

GH: It was very difficult, because we were getting, we did receive word from others who were in the army were being discharged at the convenience of the government. There was, we did hear about the eligible Nisei draftees being reclassified 4-C, "enemy alien," so we didn't know what would happen to us. So these were very tense moments.

TI: Well, it was sort of like you were in this little, little window in some ways, because you're saying so a lot of the, the men who were in the army longer, many of them were discharged because they were probably in infantry units or things like that, so they didn't want them there so they discharged them. And then the other draft-eligible Niseis who weren't yet in the army, they were being reclassified 4-C, so undesirable for the, for the U.S. service, and so you were, like, in the small, one of the few small groups that were actually, stayed active in the U.S. Army, even though you were under protective custody. So what, what were you guys thinking? I mean, did you guys talk about that?

GH: Actually, we didn't know what would happen. I mean, we could be discharged the following day for all we knew. But we tried to make the best of the situation.

TI: Were you able to communicate with people back home?

GH: Yes, but all our letters were being censored. That I know, because there was one fellow who wrote to his parents in Japanese, and I was called in to translate. [Laughs] So I do know all the letters were censored.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: And so how long were you in this base in Missouri?

GH: Actually, we were under protective custody for forty days. And after that, we were assigned to various flights, in the air corps they called it flights, it's comparable to a company. And one day, the sergeant says, "Who wants to be a general's chauffeur?" So we all raised our hand. Well, the next day, we saw the fellow pushing a wheelbarrow. [Laughs] And a couple days later, he says, "Who could type?" I raised my hand, I said, "Oh, my gosh," he said, "You." So I says, I wonder what I'll be doing. But sure enough, I became a flight clerk, so I typed up all the KP lists as well as the detail lists, so you never saw my name on the KP or the detail list.

TI: Okay, but I want to back up. So the first, the first day when they asked for volunteers for the "general's chauffeur," which would probably be a, sounds like a pretty good job, the person who got it ended up just pushing a wheelbarrow. Do you think that was some, almost like a cruel joke of some kind?

GH: [Laughs] Yeah, I thought it was.

TI: Okay. But then I'm surprised. So the second day when they asked for volunteers for the typist, you raised your hand again. I'm surprised that you had the -- [laughs] -- you raised your hand. I don't think I would have raised my hand the second day.

GH: [Laughs] So...

TI: But it was okay, it was a legitimate job that you got?

GH: Yeah. But shortly thereafter, the sergeant at, training clerk was transferred, and the flight commander says, "Grant, how about taking the job?" so I took the job. But in the meantime, I'm constantly looking for the roster that gave the assignment, and my name never came up. So finally, I talked to the flight commander, I said, "I've been here for months and my name never appears. Since I'm doing the clerical work, how about sending me to clerical school in Denver?" He said, "Grant," he says, "even, even though you go to a clerical school, all they do is give you a corporal when you graduate." He said, "You stick with me, and I'll give you a corporal," and I says, "Okay." Sure enough, I did get a corporal's ranking.

TI: So you got really, got along well with the, is it commander that you worked?

GH: Yeah. As a matter of fact, he like his whiskey, and in the afternoon he was gone, and I had to take over. [Laughs]

TI: Because he was just sort of napping or whatever after that?

GH: And I was very popular, because he would, I would calculate the number of passes that could be issued, and all I do is just take it to the commander and he would sign it. And I would issue it, so I was a very popular person. I do recall there was a case where there was an emergency, and I didn't have any extra pass. So after that, I always had a couple of extra just in case. I did use it on one or two occasions. But I was treated very well as a non-com. Corporal was a non-commissioned officer. I had my separate barracks and I'm in charge of the barracks. So they would come in and clean my barrack, they'd shine my shoe. [Laughs]

TI: Because you were the one who got to decide who got leaves?

GH: Yeah. [Laughs] So I tried to be as fair as possible.

TI: Now, these were Caucasian soldiers that were doing all this?

GH: Yeah, yeah.

TI: Did you ever experience any sort of, oh, discrimination or comments because of your, of your race?

GH: Well, there were many who never saw a Japanese or a Japanese American. And some expressed some curiosity, but they were all, especially when you have two stripes, and these are all recruits coming in. They say, "Yes, sir," "No, sir," and we got along fine, yeah.

TI: So I'm curious, one of the things, when the government, later on, when they were trying to determine loyalty of Japanese Americans, one of the questions that they would ask is whether or not a person studied in Japan and for how long. And did it ever come up, because of the length of time you studied in Japan, did people ever question your loyalty? Did they ever come to you, Grant, and with the FBI or something, and ask you lots of questions about your experiences in Japan?

GH: I never, I can't recall. But I do know they did have, did a lot of background check.

TI: On you in particular?

GH: Yeah.

TI: And so how do you know that?

GH: When I applied for FBI, they had a file that thick.

TI: And this was all during wartime, sort of, your wartime record?

GH: Yeah.

TI: And when you look through that record...

GH: No, they wouldn't show it to me.

TI: They wouldn't show it to you?

GH: No.

TI: So what do you think, how do you, because you did sort of intelligence work, what kind of things do you think they did in terms of a background check for you? Did they go back to your neighbors and ask questions?

GH: Yeah, because he would... I'm sure there were some people who had some unfavorable comments about me, because they kept on asking, "Do you know So-and-so?" and the name just didn't ring a bell. On a couple of occasions they did, the same name came up on several occasions, so I do know. But the investigation was very thorough.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: Okay, so let's go back. So you were the flight clerk or company clerk, and then, and a corporal. Then what happened? How long did you do that?

GH: I was in training for maybe two, two or three months at the most. And one day, we were ordered to assemble or stand in front of our barracks with our belongings. And along came a truck and we boarded the truck, it took us to the train station.

TI: Now, is this just Japanese Americans, or...

GH: Just Niseis.

TI: Okay, so just the Niseis, and about how many of you were...

GH: Twenty-five.

TI: So twenty-five Niseis that were there, and during that, before that, did any of the Niseis leave to go anywhere else, or were they all stay, did they all stay there?

GH: I didn't take a head count, but I got the impression that we were all shipped out.

TI: Okay, at the same time.

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: So twenty-five, you go to the train station...

GH: Train station.

TI: ...you're all lined up with your gear, then what happens?

GH: Right. And, and we're given a brown envelope, and in the envelope we found our orders and our destination. And my destination was, was Fort Leavenworth, the station hospital in Kansas. And there I served as the, what they call the "sick and wounded clerk."

TI: But before we go, so what about the other men? What happened to them?

GH: Well, we were, three of us went to Fort Leavenworth. As a matter of fact, Jerry... is it Jerry (Kanetomi) from Seattle, he was one of my bunkmates. And I don't know where others went.

TI: Okay, but they were all kind of split up in different directions?

GH: Yeah, right, uh-huh.

TI: Okay, so you went to Fort Leavenworth, and then what happened?

GH: I became a "sick and wounded clerk." It's a high-class file clerk. [Laughs] And while serving as a "sick and wounded clerk," I did receive a letter from Colonel Rasmussen, the commandant of the Camp Savage Military Intelligence school. And when I responded, I got my orders to report to him.

TI: So Colonel Rasmussen, what did he write? Was it just an inquiry asking if you'd be interested?

GH: He asked for my language background primarily, yes. So I responded, and I had my orders to report to Camp Savage.

TI: Did you know that Camp Savage was a, a language school, a Military Intelligence language school?

GH: Not until then, I wasn't aware of it.

TI: And what was your reaction when you found out what Camp Savage was?

GH: Well, I knew, I think it was the logical choice for, for a person of my background.

TI: So that made sense, but how did you feel? Because at that point, you realized that you --

GH: Of course, I didn't know what was involved, no.

TI: Sure. But you probably had a sense at that point that your experience was going to be valuable in the, in the war against Japan.

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: Did you have any sort of, sort of misgivings about that?

GH: Well, you can't serve two countries. I'm an American citizen and, you know.

TI: And do you recall about what, what month this was, when you were going to Camp Savage?

GH: Yes, I went to Camp Savage, I think it was in November of 1942.

TI: Okay, so before Camp Savage, I mean, at this point, your family had been sent to probably Pinedale, and then to Tule Lake?

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: So were you in contact with your family about what was happening during this period?

GH: I, contact in the sense that I knew where they were.

TI: Okay, just through, like, letters and things like that.

GH: Yeah, uh-uh.

TI: And so you, you didn't have an opportunity to go see them?

GH: But after I graduated, I did apply for leave, and I was granted.

TI: After you graduated from where? From...

GH: Camp, Camp Savage, Military Intelligence School.

TI: Okay, so after, after that. So let's, let's wait until we get there.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: So you're at Camp Savage, how many, what class were you in at Camp Savage?

GH: I was in Section 1.

TI: So the very first one?

GH: Yeah.

TI: That's the first class at Camp Savage. Tell me about the class. How many people were in it, and...

GH: I think there were twenty in each class. And in my class, with the exception of one, they were all Kibeis. There were... let's see. They all had pretty good Japanese background.

TI: So instructors, who were the instructors for your classes?

GH: Our instructor in charge was Paul Tekawa. I think he was an ex-newspaper man.

TI: Now, was he also recruited about the same time just to do this?

GH: Yes, yes.

TI: And he had better Japanese skills?

GH: Well, he was recruited, the school originally, at...

TI: The presidio.

GH: Presidio, yes.

TI: So he was back there before they moved. But you were the first class at Camp Savage?

GH: No. When I say Section 1, it means that (...) all the students that were at Camp Savage in November were asked to take a qualifying test, and then they divided into section 1 through (section 22).

TI: I got it. So Section 1 was the, was the better Japanese or higher Japanese language?

GH: Supposedly, yes.

TI: Okay, I understand that. So how rigorous was the curriculum?

GH: It was very rigorous. The class started at eight 'til four, and then from seven to nine or something.

TI: And did you enjoy the training in this period, or what was it like for you?

GH: I think it was a little easier for me than for others. As a matter of fact, they had exams on Saturday, and I do recall that when the lights went out, they all went to the latrine and they had to post a guard at one time because all the seats were occupied. [Laughs] They were all studying for the test.

TI: Because that's the only place there was light for them to, to do their studying.

GH: Yeah. And so they had a guard to accommodate those who were there for legitimate reasons. [Laughs]

TI: And you had it easier because your Japanese language skills were...

GH: Perhaps, yeah.

TI: ...were more advanced. Because you had a lot of Niseis there who had never been to Japan.

GH: No, except for one, the rest were all Kibeis.

TI: Kibeis, yeah. In Section 1. But the other Section 1s, so you even your language ability, even though they were Kibei, your language abilities was, was better than most of the others?

GH: I suppose, yeah.

TI: Because they probably -- I'm curious, how many graduated from high school, Japanese high school, chugakko, in your, in your section?

GH: In my class, I think most.

TI: Most had already...

GH: Except for two people that I knew.

TI: So in addition to the Japanese language, they all had some military, Japanese military training, too.

GH: Oh yeah, uh-huh.

TI: So how long were you at Camp Savage?

GH: Total of about eight months. The class was, I went there as a special student, and then they classified us into sections, so a total of eight months.

TI: I'm sorry, you were classified as a special student? Why is that?

GH: I went to, there was five students placed in a special class, and, but after November or, or December, they had consolidated all the students and then they gave them tests, and then they divided (them) into sections. So I did have maybe a couple months as a special student.

TI: And that was because of your advanced Japanese language ability?

GH: Well, it just happened that there was five of us who were placed in a special class.

TI: When you were at Camp Savage, what was it like when you went to the local town and things like that? How did people...

GH: The people are very friendly, yes. We were very fortunate to be in Minneapolis. But we didn't get to go to town that often, maybe on payday. I went to John's for a Chinese dinner.

TI: Did you ever interact with the Japanese American community in Minneapolis? Because there were a few there.

GH: No, there weren't, I didn't know of any then.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: Okay, so you mentioned, after you graduated from Camp Savage, you got a leave to go visit your parents. And why don't you tell me about that.

GH: Well, when I arrived, I mean, I was taken aback to see rows and rows of barracks, tarpaper barracks, behind barbed wire. And when I looked up, I saw a soldier wearing the same uniform as mine, with a machine gun facing inward, and that was devastating. And I walked in and another soldier guided me halfway to the barracks where my parents were billeted. And when I met them, I mean, we greeted each other with a smile, but actually, we were crying inside. It was very difficult to see my parents and siblings denied of their livelihood, placed behind barbed wire, for no other reason than their ethnicity.

TI: So when you're walking through, when you're going though the gates, initially being guarded by another American soldier, what were some of your feelings? Was it resentment, was it confusion?

GH: It was very confusing. Here I'm in uniform, the person who took the oath to fight for liberty and justice for all, and here you find your, especially your siblings behind barbed wire.

TI: What was the reaction of your siblings and other, the people in camp when you got there?

GH: Yeah, well, they were glad to see me and they were just making the best of the situation.

TI: Was it fairly common for Japanese Americans, soldiers, to come back to the camp?

GH: I don't know.

TI: Now, at this point, how much could you tell people what you were doing? Was it a secret that you were doing Japanese training, or what, what was it like in terms of the security clearance in terms of what you could say you were doing, or not say?

GH: Well, actually, we were told that MIS service was classified and that we were to act accordingly.

TI: So when people asked you what it was like, what would you tell them at this point? What could you tell them?

GH: Oh, now?

TI: No, I mean, back, back in 1941, when you went back to Tule Lake and people said, "So, Grant, what's the army like?" What would you tell them?

GH: Well, I just tell 'em that I did go to Military Intelligence school, and I think they had sense enough not to ask.

TI: Okay, so you could tell 'em that you were in the Military Intelligence School, but you couldn't tell 'em anything more? And at this point, after you graduated, did you know what type of things you would be doing?

GH: No, I didn't. Of course, we got some ideas, we were getting some documents from the front line, so we did know that they were out in the battlefield, and I think there were some people in Alaska, too, Attu.

TI: So the previous classes were out there, you had a sense that they were doing things. Did your, do you recall any conversations with your mother or father during, when you were at Tule Lake? Things that they said to you or anything like that?

GH: I can't, I can't recall.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: Okay, so after Tule Lake, then, then where did you go?

GH: I went back, and that's when, well, I realized when I left Tule Lake, that... I was devastated, actually, and at the same time I knew the challenge ahead of me. And when I returned to Fort Snelling -- that's where the graduates were stationed -- and when I heard they were asking for volunteers, I did volunteer.

TI: So I'm curious about this. So, so they asked for volunteers for a very dangerous mission, and they, I think they told you at that point that there was a good chance that you would not survive this mission.

GH: Yeah. I personally didn't hear it, but others heard that according to War Department estimates, they anticipated 85 percent casualty.

TI: Right, so, so only, yeah, 85 percent casualties, you had just come back from a pretty devastating experience seeing your family in Tule Lake. Why, why did you volunteer?

GH: Well, I knew I had to prove something.

TI: So was it sort of like you wanted to prove to people that, that Japanese Americans were, were loyal?

GH: Uh-huh. I didn't say it, but I personally...

TI: So tell me, I mean, so when they asked for volunteers, how many of, how many of the men volunteered?

GH: Actually, there was about two hundred volunteers, and they selected fourteen.

TI: Wow, so out of two hundred they selected fourteen. Why do you think they selected you?

GH: [Laughs] I don't know.

TI: You must, you must have some, some sense. Is it because of your, of your language abilities?

GH: I guess so.

TI: So describe the fourteen that you were, that were accepted, or who, who they took in, the fourteen volunteers, the key ones. I mean, generally were they strong in Japanese, or how would you describe the group?

GH: Let's see. Eddie Mitsukado, he was our team leader. He was very strong in English, I think he was a court reporter in Hawaii. As a matter of fact, there was seven from Hawaii, seven from the mainland. Let's see... Eddie Mitsukado, there was Russell Kono, also from Hawaii, he was a law student at University of Michigan, he volunteered. There was a Howard Furumoto who was attending Kansas State University, I think, who was majoring in veterinary. There was a person by the name of Herb Miyasaki, I can't recall his background. But he would, he would make a good speaker for Hawaii, he was quite a chamber of commerce type person.

TI: So I'm curious, how did the, the ones from Hawaii get along with the mainlanders? Was there friction between the two?

GH: There was, yeah.

TI: And what was that like?

GH: Well, it wasn't friction -- for one, we couldn't understand them. [Laughs] But we knew we were in the same boat and we had to get along. And so I think we did all right.

TI: So was it easier to speak in Japanese to them than English sometimes?

GH: And Hawaiian, for that matter. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: So the fourteen of you were selected, then, then what happened? What was the next thing that happened?

GH: One day we were told that we're leaving for port of embarkation, and we boarded a train in the evening at Camp Savage, or, Savage, and we were told to draw our curtains down. And we did arrive at... it wasn't San Francisco... I forget the name now. But there we united with the, a unit code named Galahad. And we were united with people who were trained in Panama, well, those who had jungle training.

TI: Okay, so these, this was a unit that, you're connected with a unit that had jungle training.

GH: That's right.

TI: So at that point, did you have a sense of what you guys were getting into?

GH: I guess so, yeah.

TI: So how was the, the trip over to, across the Pacific like?

GH: Yeah, well, as I said, there was a lot of soldiers who never met a Japanese or a Japanese American. Some thought we were POWs that had a change of mind. And one of the most frequent questions that was asked of us was that, "What would (...) Japanese (do to you if they) captured you? [Laughs] And we had a stock answer. Said we didn't know what their plans were, but, "they'll have to run like hell to catch us."

TI: So that was a question that the Caucasian soldiers would generally ask?

GH: Yeah.

TI: But I'm curious, amongst the fourteen of you, was there discussions about what would happen if the Japanese did capture one of you?

GH: No.

TI: Or did you ever consider that or think about that?

GH: Well, I did, yes, and I'll get to that later, but I, when I left for the front I had four hand grenades, but they were so heavy that I ended up with one. But that hand grenade was for myself, yeah.

TI: Because at that point, if you were captured, you thought that it would be better to, to blow yourself up.

GH: I would destroy myself rather than being captured, yeah.

TI: And what were your, when you thought about being captured, what did you think would happen?

GH: I was sure they would torture me, yeah.

TI: So that they would do that. So... so going across -- I'm also thinking in terms of, of the training that the other soldiers got, the Caucasian soldiers, they were probably told a lot of things about the Japanese, just to get them mentally prepared to kill them. I mean, did, so was there any sort of... so what was it like with the men? Were they curious, or...

GH: Well, actually, we took turns and did give lectures to the soldiers about the Japanese weapons, Japanese history, Japanese customs. And some of the things we have learned and some of the things we knew from past experience. And we got along fine. But I do know when I came out of Burma and I, one soldier said to me, "I'm damned glad we didn't throw you overboard." [Laughs] So...

TI: Because of the value you guys had in the jungles with them?

GH: Yeah.

TI: Well, because when he said that, so there was, going across, there was some animosity or resentment towards the fourteen of you?

GH: Uh-huh. And I think they were kind of jealous, too, because we all had stripes, and there's a lot of soldiers who were privates.

TI: So when you say stripes, you were all corporals or some sergeants?

GH: At least corporals and up, yeah. Or T-5 and up.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: So when you got, so where did you land when you went across the Pacific?

GH: We landed, we went to Bombay via Australia. We did pick up some soldiers who were trained, or who had actually fought in the South Pacific, and then we landed at Bombay, India.

TI: So this is where you did your, sort of, final training before...

GH: No, from Bombay we went to a place called Deogarh, where we trained.

TI: And how large was the unit at this point?

GH: Three thousand.

TI: Okay, so three thousand of you?

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay. And then after you finished training, then what happened?

GH: After training, we were taken by train and by ship and by foot to a place called Ledo, it's in Assam, India. And from there, Margherita and the staging point. We got our, our ammos, all the necessary gear, and I think it consisted of two blankets. I had four hand grenades, a belt of ammunition, carbine, machete, jungle shoes, shovel, and I had a pouch carrying a dictionary and maps. But when I tried to get up, I couldn't get up.

TI: 'Cause it was so heavy, everything?

GH: So I had to hang onto a tree to pull myself up. So as we start marching, the next stop, I dropped off some ammunition, a blanket, and then the next stop I dropped some more, until I was able to handle. So they had another truck following us picking up all the things we discarded.

TI: Because everyone, everyone else was doing the same thing.

GH: Yeah, same thing.

TI: Because you, you realized that what you, you had, you carried, how long did you think you would be sort of in the jungle? How long did you have to...

GH: We had no idea.

<Begin Segment 22>

TI: Tell me about the food, and how, how you carried food and what you ate and things like that.

GH: Well, during, and from Margherita, the Ledo Road was still under construction, but we did march up the Ledo Road. And the ration we received was K-ration, and of course, I was allergic to K-ration.

TI: So this was the first time you had tried K-rations?

GH: No, I knew I was allergic when I was given K-rations during a maneuver in India, and I was told by my battalion medical officer that I was unfit for combat. But I did convince 'em of the need for me to be with my partner, Eddie Mitsukado, our team leader.

TI: So even before you got to the Ledo Road, so in maneuvers, you found out that you really couldn't eat K-rations, which was going to be your, your food. And so the, yeah, so the army doctor said you weren't really fit. But also you, you suffered an injury also, too.

GH: Yes. During the maneuver, I jumped and the butt of the rifle hit my elbow, so I had a chipped elbow, yeah.

TI: So you had an arm, or your arm was in a sling.

GH: Yeah.

TI: So your, so by all accounts, you could have opted out. You could have said, they didn't want you to go, because you were not really fit for combat, but you insisted on going. And explain why you thought you needed to go.

GH: Of course, I trained for this and I wanted to do my part. And I knew my partner, Eddie Mitsukado, the team leader, could use my help.

TI: So you decided to go, and so now you're on the Ledo Road and you're going, so what did you eat?

GH: Well, the first two days, the officer was kind enough to come and check with me, and he says, "How you doing?" And of course, he saw the hives, I would break out in hives on my head, my mouth would, and my lips would swell. And, of course, he saw me in that condition. So he said, "Grant, don't eat this and don't eat that." And, which I followed his orders, but by the end of the day, you're so hungry. [Laughs] So, I suffered.

TI: I mean, were there things along the road that you could pick up and eat that weren't K-rations?

GH: Well, during the first battle, it was in Walawbum, the Japanese were caught by surprise and they, when they retreated, they scattered the rice on the ground. And so I picked up enough grains to, for one meal, I thought, so I tried to cook it in a helmet, but I wouldn't recommend that. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] It didn't cook very well? But at least you had rice at that point, and that was probably...

GH: Well, in name only. [Laughs]

TI: And, so how did you survive?

GH: Well, I ate a lot of chocolate and biscuits, and I would trade with others. I couldn't eat the canned food, because I was allergic to the preservative. So, but the time came when you're so hungry, you do.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So I want to take a, kind of a step back and just talk about the mission that you guys were on. I mean, so was it clear at this point what your mission was?

GH: Actually, to me, it wasn't. We did hear a lot of rumors. One rumor was that we would have one strike, and then we would be withdrawn and return to the States on a furlough. But the more plausible rumor was that one mission that would be for a duration of three months. And of course, later on, we realized it was to open the old Burma Road. The Ledo Road was under construction, and the plan was to connect the Ledo Road with the old Burma Road to supply the Chinese. It was important to keep the Chinese in the war, because they not only held down several (Japanese) divisions in China, at the same time, it was considered as the jumping ground for the invasion of Japan. And it was essential that we get the supply to the Chinese. We were supplying the Chinese via the, over the hump by flight (cargo planes).

TI: The Himalayas?

GH: Yes, but that (cargo shipment) was very limited.

TI: So you were trying to open up a land route, so that...

GH: Right. And in order to open the land line again, it was the Japanese 18th Division that held the northern Burma, where the Ledo Road was scheduled to go through.

TI: Now, tell me about the 18th Division. They were a pretty well-known outfit.

GH: Yes. Eighteenth Division was the very well-known division, very... they were the ones that were responsible for the fall of Singapore, and also the occupation of Burma. Well-seasoned soldiers, they were from Kyushu.

TI: Yeah, so they were known as a, as a really strong or, strong fighting unit, that you were going up against. Did you know that that's who you were going up against when you guys were...

GH: That, I did learn later, yes, uh-huh. But in order to connect this Ledo Road with the old Burma Road, we had to remove the 18th Division, and that's where our mission came in.

TI: So how large would the 18th Division be?

GH: I don't know the exact number, but it's a division.

TI: So it would be much larger that what you had...

GH: Oh yes, uh-huh.

TI: So how were you guys expected to remove a much larger...

GH: Well, our mission was long-range penetration behind the enemy line, to cut the enemy supply line and communication, and make surprise attacks, and to confuse the enemy while the American-trained Chinese troops made the frontal attack.

TI: Oh, I see. So you were sort of the, the behind the lines disruption force in some ways.

GH: Right, yes.

TI: So, so let me... so I'm thinking, so if you were behind lines, when you came across, ultimately you would come across Japanese soldiers. What would happen if you captured a Japanese soldier if you were behind lines?

GH: No. No quarters would be (given), there was nothing you could do.

TI: So no, no prisoners taken?

GH: No, no POWs.

TI: And conversely, when the Japanese took American soldiers, again, it was no, no prisoners taken?

GH: No.

TI: So it was really a, a fight to the death when you were in the jungle.

GH: Right, uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: So let's, let's talk about, what was your first contact with the, the Japanese?

GH: Our first contact was in Walawbum, and actually, the 2nd and 3rd Battalion, Hank Gosho from Seattle, he was assigned to 3rd Battalion. Roy Matsumoto, he was 2nd Battalion, I was in the 1st Battalion. During the battle of Walawbum, 2nd and 3rd Battalion were in action, we were held in reserve. So we did, we did not personally get in touch with the Japanese. But that's when Gosho and Roy Matsumoto, they both excelled in their work.

TI: So, so let's talk about this. What did the MIS guys do in the field?

GH: In Walawbum, let me take Hank Gosho. The, he was with the I&R unit, called Intelligence and Reconnaissance unit. These were the people that always went ahead to, of the main body. And at Walawbum, they were somewhat cut off, they had their back to the Irrawaddy River, and they were pinned down. And Hank was close enough to the enemy to overhear the enemy command, because Japanese would shout their command. So he overheard the Japanese command, which he interpreted and relayed it back to the platoon. And with that information, the platoon leader shifted his, all of his automatic weapons in the direction of the attack, and when the Japanese made the attack, they were prepared and they annihilated the enemy, and thereby rescuing the platoon.

TI: So this is what Hank Gosho did.

GH: Yes.

TI: So, so I'm trying to think, so the Japanese just assumed that the Americans could not understand Japanese?

GH: Right, right.

TI: So they would freely shout out their orders, and Hank was able to hear this, and then, and that was valuable in terms of responding.

GH: Right. And Hank also, being with the I&R platoon, which was usually pinned down, and in the case of Hank, he was pinned down by enemy fire as well as friendly fire, and he was pinned down so often that he earned the nickname "Horizontal Hank."

TI: Because he's always flat on his stomach, just sort of, yeah.

GH: And Roy Matsumoto, when the 2nd Battalion established a perimeter, they noticed there was a telephone line running through the tree, so Phil Piazza had a telephone which he gave to Roy, and he climbed up and tapped into the line. And the Niseis took turns listening in. But during Roy Matsumoto's watch, he heard that the sergeant who was guarding the ammunition dump was asking his superior for advice and aid. He said that the enemy, the Merrill's Marauders, were located at such and such a point. And when he gave that position, he compromised his own position.

TI: Oh, by telling that, like, Merrill's Marauders is like three miles due east or whatever, he told exactly where he was. Got it.

GH: So they were able to get in touch with the air force, and they were able to, they destroyed a large ammunition dump. And it was also during that evening that -- on Roy's watch again -- he overheard that, or he heard that the division was about to withdraw, and that they were coming through where the 2nd Battalion held their position. As far as the 2nd Battalion was concerned, they had fought continuously for thirty-six hours, low on ammunition, and without food. So they were advised to withdraw rather than to face the enemy.

TI: Because the whole division would have gone right through them, and they would have been probably annihilated, yeah.

GH: Wiped out, yeah. For that, Roy did receive the Legion of Merit.

TI: So at this point, was it, was it pretty well-known throughout the group that the MIS soldiers were doing things like this?

GH: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: So did they take special precautions to protect you guys?

GH: Yes, and there was a special order from Colonel Hunter that he would not tolerate any...

TI: Disrespect or anything? Or just... interesting. What were some of the other things that the MIS soldiers did besides overhearing radio communications or commands? Were there other things?

GH: Well, I think that, those were our major, and of course, we did a lot of interrogation. But this was not until we got to the airfield Myitkyina.

TI: Because in the jungle, there really weren't people to, to talk with?

GH: No, no. We did pick up some documents and translated that, but no POW.

TI: And any stories about, that you can share about some of the things that you did while in the jungle?

GH: Well, I just did my share. [Laughs] But, well, at the Battle of Shaduzup, I might mention, that's where the 1st Battalion was ordered to place the roadblock. And during the night, these white combat team, 1st Battalion was divided into two combat teams, and they were designated by color: the red and the white combat team. The white combat team crossed the Irrawaddy River during the night, and while the red combat team provided cover. The following morning, I received orders to cross the river and join them and support them in telephone, to tap into the telephone. And when a Nisei travels, he has escort. On this occasion, I had two escorts, one in front and one in back. And as we were crossing the Irrawaddy River, it was very precarious for me because I can't swim. [Laughs] And I had the pouch with the dictionary and the map, which I had to hold up, because the water was shoulder-deep. And I had to hold the rifle with my right hand, so the pouch was blocking my vision. Well, anyway, when we got to the middle of this stream, I heard three shots, [mimics sound of gunfire] like, like it was a sniper that was shooting at us. And that's all I remember. I don't know how I got across, but we all three got across safely. And when I reported to the commander, he said that the telephone line was dead, so I was not able to fulfill my duties. But my crossing was not in vain, because the Japanese were caught by surprise, and they retreated leaving their breakfast behind. [Laughs] So I had warm rice and a can of sardines.

TI: And that was probably worth it for you. [Laughs]

GH: That was quite a feast.

TI: Oh, that's, that's a good story.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: Okay, so now we're in the third hour of the interview, Grant. So we just, we just, we're now in the jungles of Burma, and we're talking about some of the experiences, and I wanted to go to one of the battles that, that Merrill's Marauders fought, and that was the battle of Nhpum Ga. Can you, can you talk about that and tell me what happened at Nhpum Ga?

GH: Well, after the Battle of Shaduzup, we were waiting for air drop. And then we heard that the 2nd Battalion was under siege, so we were placed on forced march to rescue the 2nd Battalion. During the march, of course, I was suffering from amoebic dysentery, and with the hives, I was not in the best shape. [Laughs] And the battalion surgeon, or medical officer, saw me struggling, so he gave me permission to put my pack on a horse. And, but the horse suffered shrapnel wounds, so it had to be destroyed. Then my pack was put on a mule, but the mule, while climbing a steep incline, the load shifted and had to, and had to be destroyed. So my pack was placed on the second mule, but during the ten-minute break, the mule collapsed and the mule skinner, he's the one that handles the mule, he pulled and he pulled with no response. But when the ten minutes' break was up, and when I looked and saw the last man disappear around the bend, my heart sank, because I knew it was almost impossible for me to unpack, carry the pack, and double-time to catch up with the unit. Just then, the mule skinner went through all the curse words in his vocabulary, and he made a desperate pull, and shouted, "Dammit, you volunteered, too." And with that, the mule got up. [Laughs] So thanks to the mule, I'm here today.

TI: Because if the mule didn't get up, then you would have been sort of stranded there on your own, kind of?

GH: I don't know. I guess I would have tried to catch up, but I would have to carry the pack, and I would have to double-time. And I don't know what would have happened.

TI: Do you have any sense of how much you weighed at this point? How much weight you lost?

GH: I lost quite a bit, yeah.

TI: So normally, going in, how much did you weight?

GH: Hundred and nineteen.

TI: And did you ever weigh yourself after this was all over to see how much you...

GH: No, I didn't, no.

TI: Do you have any guess what you might have been? It was probably under a hundred pounds, though.

GH: [Laughs] I don't know.

TI: Okay, so, so you're part of this forced march to help...

GH: Yes, and so like many other GIs, we all followed the mule very closely, and I for one, I know when the going got tough, you hang onto the mule's tail. And I still, to this day, I could recall the mule that would look back from time to time, as though to say, "Hey, give me a break." [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] But that mule kind of saved you, because you were really weak, and you just needed the...

GH: Just hang on to the mule's tail, yeah.

TI: And he was carrying your pack, also.

<Begin Segment 26>

GH: But we did make it to Nhpum Ga, and at Nhpum Ga, the 2nd Battalion was under siege for something like ten days or whatever. And the battle was so severe that it became known as "Maggot Hill." They fought over the water hole, and they did lose it to the Japanese, and the Niseis would take turns during the night, they would crawl beyond the perimeter to see if they could gather some information. And one night, Roy Matsumoto, he crawled beyond the perimeter, way into no-man's land, and he overheard that the unit was planning to attack the following morning.

TI: Now, while this was happening, so the 2nd Battalion was sort of under siege, they were surrounded, the 1st Battalion, were you guys, were you guys --

GH: We were out in the outside, we're trying --

TI: Outside, were you in a position to break through at all, or is it just like there's...

GH: The 3rd Battalion was trying to break through.

TI: And you had just arrived.

GH: We arrived and we were diverting the other units... you call it diversionary action.

TI: Because the Japanese were trying to reinforce the...

GH: That's right, uh-huh.

TI: Okay. So it looked like it, so what were people thinking at this point? Did they think the 2nd Battalion had a, had a chance, or what were your, your thoughts?

GH: I really didn't know. We just knew that they were under siege, and we had to somehow get them out.

TI: There wasn't much communication between the battalions?

GH: No, no. And with, when Roy overheard their plan, he crawled back and he passed it on to the platoon leader. And the platoon leader in turn passed it on to Colonel McGee, the commander, and they withdrew the men from the foxhole, and they established a new perimeter.

TI: Because what, what Roy overheard was he, similar to what Hank Gosho, he found out what their plans were, where they were going to attack...

GH: Attack, uh-huh.

TI: And so in the same way, they, so they pulled back, and they, again, probably brought all their automatic weaponry to bear on that one point.

GH: So after they established a new perimeter, they waited, and sure enough, at dawn they struck with a banzai attack, and they were bayoneting the empty foxholes, throwing in hand grenades. But then they realized, and they were taken by surprise that the, the Marauders had moved. So then they came up and led by an officer, but with a sword, and they were charging up the hill. Lieutenant McLogan, the platoon leader, he waited until the enemy was within fifteen yards, and then he opened up with all the automatic weapons and annihilated the enemy. The second wave that was coming up saw what happened, so they, they hit the ground. And there was indication that they would withdraw to fight another day. Well, Roy, thinking that they may withdraw, got up from his foxhole, and gave command in Japanese, "Charge, charge," and charge they did, only to meet the same fate as the first wave.

TI: Now, what Roy did, was that something that, that the other Niseis would have done also?

GH: I don't know. I guess there was a lot of, you do a lot of things unconsciously. I don't know if other (would have) it took a lot of guts. I mean, had a lot of thinking on the part of Roy, yeah.

TI: Now, was that a scenario that you guys ever talked about? That if you were in a situation, that that was something you could do?

GH: No, we haven't, but...

TI: Yeah, it just seems like a pretty amazing thing to, to do.

GH: Yeah, that's right.

TI: And so, so the second wave was also sort of destroyed.

GH: Right. And so...

TI: And then, and then what happened?

GH: So when the battle was over, I think they counted about fifty-some-odd bodies, among them were two officers. And then the 3rd Battalion broke through, and that was Sunday, Easter Sunday.

TI: So that was, that was a pretty -- and at that point, do you have a sense of how many men -- you said when they first started, you had about three thousand men or so?

GH: Uh-huh.

TI: About how many were --

GH: By then, I think we had only about, the figure I have is fourteen hundred, yeah.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: Now, so as men were wounded, was there a way for them to get help?

GH: Yes. Initially, they had no plans, but what happened was they did have liaison planes bring in orders and some messages etcetera, and rather than going back empty, they took on the wounded, the sick and wounded. And as a matter of fact, after Nhpum Ga, I did fly out myself.

TI: So how would they land in the jungle? Were there...

GH: Actually, this particular plane landed on a rice paddy, and surrounded by bamboo. And when I arrived they were tying the plane to a tree with the discarded parachute rope. And I was curious, but I was too tired and they lifted me on the plane, and shortly thereafter, there was another patient that was boarded. And then we were told by the pilot that the plane would not take off until sundown, because we were behind enemy lines. And at sundown, they got the motor started and it was purring. But I could see the pilot with the eye focused on the dial, I think it said RPM, and the plane was just jumping up and down. And finally I saw him stick his left hand out and I think the machete went down, and the plane just took off. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] Because the runway was so short or something, they had to get enough power going, cut it, and then it would just take off really fast.

GH: Just shoot. And I could say it was a very close call, but when I looked, I could see the bamboo.

TI: Wow.

GH: So we meandered and we finally got to Ledo.

TI: And from there, that's where you would then recuperate a little bit more?

GH: Yes. I, after I recuperated, I did interrogate some POWs.

TI: At, at Ledo?

GH: Yeah. And then flew back into Burma.

TI: So how long were you at Ledo recuperating?

GH: About a month.

TI: And then you rejoined the unit?

GH: Yes.

TI: And so why don't you talk about that, how you rejoined the unit.

GH: Yeah. I flew back in again, and it was very demoralizing because when the... well, to go back to Nhpum Ga, after Nhpum Ga with the, the unit half-size, so to speak, they had to reorganize, they got some Chinese, the Kachins, the natives, and they formed another unit and then they struck the Myitkyina airfield and they took the Japanese by surprise. And I think it was in early May that they captured the airfield.

TI: The Myitkyina airfield was, like, one of the prizes? That was one of the goals of the mission, to capture this.

GH: Because Myitkyina, by capturing the airfield, it served two purposes: it enabled the American planes to land on the way to China, also it deprived the Japanese from harassing the cargo ships. But...

TI: So the Marauders were able to capture this, this airfield.

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And that's where, that's when you rejoined them?

GH: Yeah. But when the, we captured the airfield, I mean, there... from one estimate, there was less than two hundred people who was (...) fit to fight. If they were forced to fight, maybe for, they could fight for another week or two, that's how bad it was. And most of 'em were casualties to disease, fatigue, malnutrition, and, but when the enemy regrouped and struck back, it became desperate, and it was very demoralizing because people who were ready to be shipped back, their tags were snatched and even those who were recuperating were classified fit to fight and were flown back in. And...

TI: And that's people like you, who were recuperating.

GH: Yeah, yeah.

TI: Because you were, because there were no other soldiers available nearby? So they had to just bring, bring...

GH: That's right. And so it was very demoralizing because we were told that when we captured Myitkyina, we would be replaced by the Chinese and then we would be withdrawn. But there were some unfortunate incidents where the Chinese who were supposed to take over, they fought each other and the plans did not go according to...

TI: So there was infighting amongst the Chinese.

GH: Chinese, yeah. No, by mistake, they fought each other, so they had heavy casualties. So the unit that was supposed to take over were diminished, yeah. And also, the planned supply was delayed, so the battle went on 'til August, the early part of August, and that's when General Mizukami committed hara kiri.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: So this must, this must have been your heaviest fighting that you were involved in?

GH: It was very heavy, yeah, very heavy fighting.

TI: But you, but the Marauders prevailed and you guys held the airfield. And then there was a, a town nearby?

GH: Yes, Myitkyina, uh-huh.

TI: And so when you prevailed, at that point, you had quite a few prisoners of war at that point?

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And so that's when you started doing more interrogation?

GH: Right.

TI: So talk about that. What did you find when you started interrogating?

GH: Well, I was able to interrogate a second lieutenant. He was brought in by a stretcher, and he was captured by the Gurkhas, these are Indian soldiers. And it was late at night or evening, and I saw the prisoner, he was stabbed three times in the hip, arm, and his leg. And I knew he had to, he needed medical attention, so I asked the guards to take him to have, provide medical attention, but to have him brought in early in the morning so I could interrogate him. So early that morning, he was brought in. So I inquired, "How was your, how was your treatment?" He looked at me, he says, "You're a traitor." I said, "Traitor?" I said, "I'm an American soldier." And says maybe if we were to cut our vein," I said, "The same blood may flow, but I'm an American fighting for my country, and you're fighting for your country. Don't you dare call me a traitor." [Laughs] But he refused to respond.

TI: Well, how did that make you feel when he called you a traitor? Was it...

GH: It struck me hard, yes, to be called a traitor, because I'm an American.

TI: But were you angry at him?

GH: I was angry, yes. And I was disturbed to the point, I said, I told the guard to take him and put him in the middle of the stockade among the enlisted men. Of course, there was no stockade for the officers, because he was the only officer. So the guard put him, placed him in the center of the stockade, and then I went in and I walked by, he pulled my trouser, he says, "Mr. Interpreter," he says, "I want to be shot." No, "I want to die." I said, "How do you want to die?" he said, "I want to be shot." And I'm so mad, I says, "I don't (have) any bullet to waste on you." [Laughs] But said, "We do have a sword, you could demonstrate how to commit hara kiri," and I left. And the second time around I went, he pulled my trouser again and he said, "Mr. Interpreter," and he said, "I have a second thought." He said, "Please get me out of here," and, which I did. And he was very cooperative. And as a matter of fact, the following morning, when I met Captain Chan, he said they liked the report.

TI: Oh, so you were able to question him and get valuable information that was, that was useful. Because, again, he was an officer, so he had a lot more information than the others. But, but you had to... now, did you do all this intentionally? I mean, he, at first he called you a traitor, so he made you angry, and you reacted by putting him in stockade. But eventually it worked, because he, by that treatment, he came around and decided to, to talk. So was that all planned in your mind, or did it just happen?

GH: No, I think it's, it's just something that took place, yeah.

<Begin Segment 29>

TI: When I was doing some research of your life story, there was also some mention that at Myitkyina, there were also, the Japanese used comfort women, and that you were able, you were asked to actually question some of them, to see if you could get information. Can you, can you tell me what you found?

GH: Well, one day, a guard, a friend of mine called me and said, "Grant, come on over." I said, "What?" so I went over, and he giggled and he said, "You know, we've got a catch. We have some comfort girls." I didn't know what a comfort girl was, but when I got to the makeshift tent, it was a British tent, I saw the girls. And I looked and I said, "What am I going to do with the girls?" I says, "I'm not trained to interrogate comfort girls." So I went and asked Captain Chan, I said, "Captain Chan," I said, "we have some comfort girls." I said, "I need your help." So he called Howard Furumoto and Bob Honda, so four of us went. And Captain Chan had some photos. First he asked questions, but the girls didn't know anything. So he showed some photos to them that one of the girls did recognize Colonel (Maruyama), but other than that, there was no information that was useful. But the night before they left for India... oh, I might add, during the interrogation, I saw the Mama-san who was responsible for the girls. She looked like she was pregnant, so I asked if she had something in hiding. She said, "No," she said being responsible for the girls, she was responsible for the, their earnings. And I said, "If that's what it is, I'd like to see it." So she took her sash off and presented the, it was a rupee, ten rupee. And it was just like it came off the printing because it was still warm. [Laughs] And I did finally, got enough courage to tell her that it was worthless. And, of course, she was taken aback and I don't think she believed me, but I told her that this is military script, and that the Japanese had been defeated in Burma, and it was only good with the backing of the Japanese government. And, but so I did ask her to give me a couple bundles of rupees, with which I would exchange it for some tobacco, K-ration, whatever, to souvenir-hungry GIs, and so I did exchange it and I brought it back to them. But the night before --

TI: And what was the reaction of...

GH: No, they were, it was mixed, mixed feelings. Some, those who smoked, they were very happy, and others had, I guess it was mixed feeling.

TI: And in general, could you tell how these women were treated by the Japanese? I mean, what, what came out during this, the interrogation?

GH: Well, being in the jungle, you know, I think under the circumstances, what more can you expect? At least they had their clothes on.

TI: It was very rough for them, then?

GH: Yeah.

TI: Okay, you were going to talk about the night before they, they left?

GH: The night before they left, Howard Furumoto, he had a golden voice, he's from Hawaii. Bob Honda's from Hawaii, and of course, I'm from the mainland. And so he carried, Howard Furumoto carried a ukulele all the way through Burma. [Laughs] And here you get, he's strumming away, "Aloha," and we were entertaining each other with songs. And at the end... these are Koreans, by the way, they sang "Ariran," that's a Korean love song, yeah. And then we parted. But as we parted, there were expressions of thanks and wishing us good luck, but I could see the tears running down their cheek. But when I left the stockade, I could feel the tears running down my cheek. But my thoughts were of my parents and siblings, yeah.

TI: Because at that point it was a chance to just relax a little bit.

GH: Yeah. But, and they were all (returned) to India, because I did go by the dispensary on a jeep one day, and I saw one of the girls entering the dispensary. So I hope they all got back safely.

<Begin Segment 30>

TI: So from Myitkyina, then at that point, eventually were you then sent back to India?

GH: Yes, I went back to India, and I was assigned to the Royal Air Force as a translator. And I served with them until one day we're in New Delhi when a British general approached us and he says, he said, "Soldier, what do you do when you see an officer?" So we hastily saluted, but it was too late. He took our names and he submitted our names to Colonel Swat, a commandant. And we were called in, and the colonel was very sympathetic. He says, "I know. In the front line, you don't salute because you identify the officer." But he said, "Now you're in the rear echelon, so you have to salute." And then Roy Matsumoto -- not Roy, Roy Nakata, he was bitching, he said, "That goddamned limey." [Laughs] And he was, so Colonel said to Roy, he said, "What do you want?" Roy said, "I want to get the hell out of here." [Laughs] He says, "Your wish is granted." And that meant we were leaving for, he was leaving for Kunming, China. And we said, "Well, if he's going, we all will go."

TI: So all fourteen of you?

GH: No, no. There was about five of us.

TI: And so after, I guess, Myitkyina, did pretty much the Marauders sort of broke up at that point?

GH: In a way, yes. Well, let's see. I was with the Royal Air Force, Roy Matsumoto and I were with the Royal Air Force. Others were with SEATIC, Southeast Asia Translation (and Interrogation) Center or something. But we all decided to go with Roy to Kunming.

TI: Now, I'm curious, after, after Burma, did, were the men, the fourteen Niseis who went through this, were they, were any of them promoted, or what was the situation?

GH: Yes. Seven were commissioned.

TI: As officers?

GH: Yes.

TI: Now, how about you, were you...

GH: No.

TI: Now, how did they decide who was commissioned and who wasn't?

GH: I don't know.

TI: And the ones who were commissioned, did any of them go to China also, or did they do something else? Like, who went to China?

GH: One went to China, yes. Like Eddie Mitsukado, he was reassigned to OSS, and like Roy, went with us to Chunking, but then he was assigned to OSS. I think there were about five of us that stayed in Chunking.

<Begin Segment 31>

TI: And pretty much you, you went to China, Chunking, to, again, interrogate or question...

GH: Right, uh-huh.

TI: ...POWs and things like that. While you were in China and doing interrogation, there was one interview in particular that I read about that was interesting, and that was there was someone who talked about the Japanese working on an atomic bomb. Can you, can you tell me about that?

GH: Yes. He was, I think, either a first or second lieutenant, I can't recall, but he was with the army air corps, the Japanese army air corps, and he was captured, and one of the, the fact that I was in the U.S. army air corps, I was in charge of the Japanese POW connected with the air corps. He was brought in one day for interrogation, and during the course of the interrogation, he pushed a Chinese matchbox in front of me, and he said, "We're working on a bomb this size that could destroy a city." I says, "Come on. Don't pull my leg." But then he recomposed himself and he says, "No, that is true." He said, "It has been researched at Tokyo Imperial University, sponsored by the army, at Kyoto Imperial University, sponsored by the navy, and also at Osaka University." And then he went on to mention that he had worked with Dr. (Yoshio) Nishina, who was at Tokyo University. And then he went into the technical side, which is beyond my comprehension. The...

TI: He tried to explain to you how it was going to be...

GH: Right, he talked about the Uranium-(235), the Cyclotone, I mean, you know, it was beyond my comprehension. So I excused myself on a couple of occasions just to see if the terms were valid, and I couldn't find it in the dictionary. Well, anyway, our regimen was, I was spending one week at Nanonchen, at the hot springs, I was billeted there and walked to the POW camp. And after five days of interrogation, I would come back and then spend the next week writing up the report. But when I returned and there were two officers who had just graduated from the OCS, and I was introduced to them, and so I asked them, "I have just interrogated a POW who claims that, that they're working on a bomb called the atom bomb, or atomic bomb." And I said, "It's the size of a matchbox that could destroy a city." Well, they both looked at each other and they rolled their eyes as though to say that I've been overseas too long. And so I excused myself and the following week, I started writing up the report. But I felt that without some technical aspect, the, the report was not complete. So in order to get assistance, I made an appointment with a doctor, I mean, with Colonel John (Burden)... it slips my mind. It'll come to me. And I made an appointment, but when I entered, he was reading the document, and when I did mention about the atomic bomb, he did look at me, and he gave me a strange look. But after I made my report, he didn't respond. So I just saluted him and went back to my desk, and I said, "I'm not getting any help," so I just wrote the report and threw it in the wastepaper basket.

TI: Did you have, through the interrogation, did you have a sense of how far along the Japanese were with their research?

GH: I had no idea, but according to what I read, they say they were as advanced as the Germans, but the Japanese had trouble. They didn't have the Uranium-(235), and as a matter of fact, they were being shipped on a, by submarine from Germany to Japan. But we intercepted it, the message, and we sank the submarine.

TI: So it really was a race for the atomic bomb between the...

GH: Well, I'm sure they had still a long ways to go. As a matter of fact, when we dropped the bomb, Dr. Nishina was asked by the military whether it was possible to complete the bomb within six months. But of course, when the bombs fell on Nagasaki, there wasn't, we don't know the answer.

TI: That's amazing. Yeah, I didn't know about that.

<Begin Segment 32>

TI: When, when you, you mentioned the bombing of the, of Hiroshima, the atomic bomb, I mean, what did you think when you heard about that? Because when you heard about the, initially the stories from the Japanese about this, this tiny matchbox bomb, did you think it was true?

GH: No, I couldn't believe it, no.

TI: And so then later on when you heard about the atomic bomb...

GH: Well, it was very difficult for me to visualize, a small bomb like that could destroy a city was beyond my comprehension. Yet I knew the person I interrogated was sincere. He was trying to get it across to me, but I just couldn't comprehend.

TI: What I'm surprised about when you talk about the Japanese, the interrogation, I'm surprised how much information you were able to get during these, these interviews. That it seems that especially something like this would be highly classified information from the Japanese side, but they freely gave this, and you said very earnestly.

GH: See, the Japanese have never been trained for secrecy. They thought the Japanese language was, was encoded to begin with, because the language is so complicated. So, and of course, they never thought that the Japanese would become POWs. They were told to, they were never told about the Geneva Convention, they were told to destroy themselves before they were captured. So there was, they had no sense of security. So they all spoke very freely.

TI: That's interesting. So, because, because they weren't trained, in case of capture, they gave up a lot more information than they needed to.

GH: Yeah.

TI: Okay. So, yeah, so going back to your reactions to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, what were you thinking?

GH: Yes, well, when I heard bomb, I said, "Well, my gosh, that's what he was trying to tell me." So I, I got on a jeep and I went to the POW camp, and I looked up the man and I said, "You know, we just dropped the bomb." And he covered his face and he says, "The war must be over." I says, "No, the war isn't over, but I guess it won't be too long." And they all give you false names, they never... and they had a farewell party for me at the POW camp consisting of tea and two crackers. But I made a little speech, and then on my way out, they all lined up and he says, "My true name is such-and-such. If you come to Japan, look me up," or something to that effect. And I wanted to remember this fellow's, the POW who gave me the information, and kept on repeating it on my way back, but when I got back, I lost it.

TI: That's interesting. That's a good story.

<Begin Segment 33>

TI: So when you left there, what happened next? Where did you go?

GH: After the war ended, I was sent to -- oh, as a matter of fact, I was called in one day that I was (told) to accompany Colonel Burden, John Burden, head of SINTIC (Sino Translation and Interrogation Center), to go to Nanking, and I was to serve as a personal interpreter to General McClure. And that morning, they pinned a bar on me and I took the oath, so I was a second lieutenant. General Ho Ying-chen --

TI: Just, I'm curious, the, becoming an officer, was part of it because you were going to be an interpreter to such a high-level officer that it would not look right to, if it wasn't --

GH: For enlisted man, yeah. There's more to it. [Laughs] Well, General Ho Ying-chen, his mother's Japanese. Dr. Ho Ying-chen, representing Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek, and Colonel Burden and myself, we all three of us flew on the C-46 to Nanking. And on the way, I had a very interesting experience. I went up to the cockpit, and the captain says, "Grant, sit." So I sat on the pilot's seat, but he said, "Don't you dare touch anything." The plane was on automatic flight. It was a beautiful day, and I had my thrill. But when I got to Nanking, I was taken aback to see surrounded by Japanese soldiers, and interspersed with some GIs and some nationalist troops. And we were guided to a car --

TI: So let me make sure I understand. So you're surrounded by Japanese soldiers interspersed with some GIs. So were the GIs guarding the Japanese soldiers?

GH: No, no. They were doing all the work around, I guess they were ordered to do certain things.

TI: Well, were the Japanese soldiers armed, or did, their weapons were taken away?

GH: I can't recall that part. I just know what...

TI: Because at this point, the Japanese, although they had formally surrendered, they had essentially lost the war and surrendered.

GH: No, and they're working so I don't think they had, they couldn't carry their rifle and do this.

TI: But they were freely walking around...

GH: Yeah, uh-huh. But we were then led to the waiting car, it was a 1936 Chevrolet, and Colonel Burden and I got on, and, but then some strange views was revealed. I could see the soldiers with bayonets marching down the street.

TI: The Japanese soldiers with bayonets?

GH: Yeah. And officers with the swords dangling on the side. At the main intersection, it was manned by machine gun.

TI: Machine guns by the...

GH: Japanese.

TI: Japanese. So the Japanese had machine guns...

GH: Oh yeah, at the major intersections.

TI: ...in Nanking. How did that make you and the other American soldiers feel?

GH: [Laughs] Well, I had my fingers crossed, I just hoped that nothing happened. And I was told later that there were 78,000 Japanese, support, supported by 280 puppet troops. Well, to make a long story short, we did arrive at the hotel safely, and after the, after we settled, Colonel Burden says, "Grant, let's go for a walk." So came out, we carried a .45 pistol, and as we turned the corner, here comes three Japanese soldiers, three abreast, coming down the sidewalk. And the colonel says, "What are you going to do?" So I pushed, without responding, I pushed him off the sidewalk. I wasn't about to have confrontation with them. And the Japanese are very cocky; their attitude was that they were victorious in China, and they said they were willing to fight on, but they will stop because of the Emperor's order. Well, the following day --

TI: Well, explain that one more time. So the, the three Japanese soldiers were walking on the sidewalk towards you, you and the colonel were walking the other way, and then when you were confronted, you did what? You pushed them off?

GH: I pushed, he said, "What are you going to do?" And so I pushed him off.

TI: You pushed the colonel?

GH: Yeah.

TI: You pushed the colonel and you off the sidewalk to let them pass.

GH: Sidewalk, I let them go.

TI: Even though you were, the Americans were the victors?

GH: I know. But what are you going to do, put up a fight?

TI: And the colonel was okay with that? He didn't get upset?

GH: He didn't say anything. [Laughs] He didn't say anything.

TI: That's interesting. But you, you had a sense that the Japanese were so proud that if you didn't do that, there would have been a possible confrontation.

GH: I didn't want any trouble. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 34>

GH: Well, the following day, the same Chevrolet, 1936, came along to pick us up to go to the surrender ceremony. Now there were four of us, so I had to sit on the lap of a colonel to get to the surrender ceremony. And when we arrived, we were escorted to our designated seat. I sat right behind General McClure, but we were facing the main entrance, and shortly after I sat down, I could see a 1940 Roadmaster pull up, and a Japanese representative got out. And all seven, I think, came on individual Roadmaster. [Laughs] And I was laughing to myself because I knew how I came. [Laughs]

TI: Because you were sitting on the lap of a colonel. Again, it's such a contrast. Here again, you were the victors, and you would go in your way, and the Japanese would go one by one, each privately driven with their own nice 1940 Roadmaster car. It's such a contrast.

GH: And as they entered, the auditorium lit up with a flash, photographers. The Japanese representatives were taken to a waiting room, and shortly thereafter, they were brought back, and as they came back, they bowed to General Ho Ying-chen and they were seated. And then there was a moment of silence when General Ho Ying-chen examined the credentials of General Okamoto, who was the commander of the Japanese army in China. And after he acknowledged the document, he, they signed the surrender (documents)... [pauses] and it was exchanged and at that point the flashes went on again. And then...

TI: So the Japanese were surrendering, technically, to the Chinese?

GH: Right.

TI: And the Americans were there as observers.

GH: We were there as observers, yeah.

TI: Okay.

GH: And, and I think as the flashes went on again, and then --

TI: Now, when this was happening, did you, did you have a sense that you were really witnessing history here, that this was...

GH: Oh, I could, I felt for the Japanese, 'cause I knew what was going on. [Laughs]

TI: When you say that you felt for the Japanese, what do you mean that you knew what was going on?

GH: I could just imagine, you know, the proud Japanese who had been victorious all along, here they were surrendering.

TI: Even though they had not lost in China, in their minds they were still strong and could keep fighting, but, but they had to surrender.

GH: Yeah. But after the exchange of documents, the Japanese retreated to the waiting room, and then Ho Ying-chen announced over the radio the successful completion of the surrender ceremony and the dawn of peace. It was a very short, dignified ceremony.

TI: Okay. Well, that was, that was, again, it's amazing that you were able to participate in this, in this event. So after the surrender ceremony, then what happened?

GH: We did get one Roadmaster. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 35>

TI: Oh, but I wanted to follow up, too, you mentioned that, you said there was more to you becoming an officer that you wanted to tell me about?

GH: Oh. Well, after the surrender, General McClure said, "Grant, we're going to Manchuria." I said, "General," I said, "all I have is my khaki uniform." I said, "I'm not ready for Manchuria." He said, "Take my plane and get your belongings and report back." So I said, "Yes, sir," so I flew back to Chunking. Colonel, Major Snyder said, "Grant, you're the third man on the list for rotation," so I said, "Major," I said, "I have the general's plane waiting for me." And Major said, "I didn't hear you. I'm telling you you're the third man on the list for rotation."

TI: Which means that, your rotation is to go back to the...

GH: Yeah, I had enough points to go back, yeah.

TI: And so that, okay.

GH: So when he said, "I didn't hear you," I said, "Well, how soon can I leave?" He said, "Well, there's a plane leaving for Calcutta at six o'clock." I said, "Thank you," and I went and got all my things. In the meantime, he wrote up an order to... and when I read it, it said, "Tech Sergeant Hirabayashi." I said, "Wait a minute," but I didn't care. I was on my way home.

TI: But technically you did become a lieutenant, or not? What...

GH: I was sworn in, but I didn't care. I was on my way home. [Laughs]

TI: So you, you stood up a general. [Laughs]

GH: So, so I was a lieutenant for three days. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, that's interesting. But then, did you ever hear what happened, what the general thought or anything?

GH: No. When I was in Japan during the occupation, I heard he was in Hokkaido. I said I didn't want to see him. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs] Oh, yeah, he probably would have been a little upset when he heard about that. So you went, so you were sent back to the United States, and how was it returning to the United States after all this? Because...

GH: Oh, it was, it was quite a thrill. As a matter of fact, I departed from San Francisco and went to India, but on the way back I left from Calcutta by ship and came back to New York via the Suez Canal.

TI: So you literally went all the way around the world?

GH: Yeah. I made a trip around the world at government expense, but I wish they'd, (told me) that I had a round-trip ticket, it would have helped. [Laughs]

TI: Now, up to this point, had you ever been to New York City?

GH: Oh, (no).

TI: You had, okay.

GH: But as we, the ship pulled in, it was the Liberty ship that pulled in, the band struck up and "Sentimental Journey." It was the "Sentimental Journey," but and then I went to...

TI: Well, can you recall your feelings when, when you were coming into the...

GH: Oh, when we saw the Statue of Liberty, I mean, we all rushed to one side of the ship and they had to, the ship started tilting, so they had to move us back. But it was quite a thrill, yeah. It was quite a thrill. And it was great to be greeted by the local people. By train, we went to Camp McCoy where I was discharged. And it was the day before my birthday, November the 8th, yeah. So I did celebrate my birthday at home in Minneapolis.

TI: As, as a civilian?

GH: Yes.

TI: In, I'm sorry, Minneapolis, you said?

GH: Yes.

TI: Now, that's where your parents were.

GH: Yes.

TI: Now, why didn't your parents go back to Kent, back to, or did they eventually go back?

GH: I never did ask, but I think they were comfortably situated in Minneapolis, yeah.

TI: So they ended up staying there and then they just lived the rest of their lives in Minneapolis?

GH: Yeah, uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 36>

TI: And then while you were in Minneapolis, did you go visit your old school?

GH: Yes. I wanted to enroll at the University of Minnesota, but they told me to take advantage of my GI bill, but they told me that it was, the classes were filled, so they told me to wait one semester. So during that period, I did visit my friends at Fort Snelling, and they asked me what I was doing, I said I was waiting. They said they were short of instructors, so they asked me to teach, which I did. But in the meantime, the school moved from Fort Snelling to Presidio of Monterey.

TI: Now, as a teacher, were you teaching as a civilian?

GH: Yes.

TI: And so then the school was moved to, back to Monterey, back to the West Coast.

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And so you relocated to the, to the West Coast.

GH: Right. And at Monterey, I did get orders to report to...

TI: But during your time in Minneapolis, is that the time you met your wife?

GH: Yes.

TI: Because she was a student at...

GH: At the University of Minnesota.

TI: And how did you meet your wife?

GH: My brother's wife's brother's fiance was my wife's roommate.

TI: So you sort of, so through this connection...

GH: So I was introduced to my wife by...

TI: And how was it that the two of you got together? I mean, what was it about your wife that attracted you to her?

GH: Well, she was a beautiful lady, she was very intelligent, and for me, it was, I was quite attracted to her, yeah.

TI: And she ever tell you why she was attracted to you?

GH: No. [Laughs]

TI: [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 37>

TI: So, so now we're in our fourth hour, Grant, and we, where we left it is you're at Monterey, and you, I think, were just being offered to be transferred back to Japan. So why don't we pick it up there? So you were at Monterey as an instructor for the MIS Language School. And at this point, did, had you married Esther yet?

GH: Well, when I heard I was to be transferred, I did tell my fiance then that I was going, and it would be preferable to get married, because there may be a chance for me to have her join me in Japan. So we did get married.

TI: So where did you get married?

GH: Minneapolis.

TI: So you flew back to Minneapolis?

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And what was, what was the ceremony like? What was the wedding like?

GH: Oh, it was the full ceremony, my wife did a beautiful job. So I was in tuxedo. [Laughs]

TI: So lots of family members there?

GH: Yes.

TI: And so what was she doing in Minneapolis while you were teaching?

GH: She was still attending school, and after she graduated she had to take her RN test, Registered Nurse's test. And when she completed that, I asked my boss to have her join me. And I was...

TI: Because right now, at this point, you were in Japan? So you were transferred over.

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: Now, when you transferred over, did you transfer over, again, as a civilian?

GH: Yes.

TI: So you were a civilian during this whole period, okay. So you were over there, and you asked your boss to...

GH: And I was GS-9 then.

TI: And that's a government level, in terms of pay scale.

GH: He says, and the boss was, he was a colonel, he said, "Grant," he said, "You got to be a GS-12 to, or a major's rank to have your family join you." I says, "That's too bad," I said, "I'll have to submit my resignation and go home." He said, "Wait a minute," he says, "call back in a month." So one day I got a call and he said, "I hereby declare you essential, and by being declared essential, you're entitled to get your dependent over." So that's how I got my wife over.

TI: Now, to be declared essential, what kind of work were you doing at this point?

GH: I was with the war crimes trials with the prosecution, and we were working on the Western Army case. And I was the, there were several others who were working in the office, but I was responsible for the translation, interpretation and interrogation.

TI: And so for the, the lawyers on the prosecuting side, you would be there with them when they wanted to question someone?

GH: Yes.

TI: You would do the questioning and the interpretation.

<Begin Segment 38>

TI: And then describe the trials, or some of the trials that you were involved with.

GH: Unfortunately, in the two trials I was involved, one was the Western Army case, the other was the Kyushu Imperial University vivisection. And the people were both involved in the Western and vivisection. So I, at this late date, I get the people's name...

TI: But just in general, just, can you explain what the Western...

GH: The Western Army case, I think these were... I might add that this is not the "A" trial. "A" trial was the political figures such as Tojo, etcetera. The "B" class was held in Yokohama, and this is under the jurisdiction of the 8th Army. So the people we prosecuted were those who were actually involved in the crime. The Western Army case was one where the B-25 bomber pilots were tortured.

TI: So these were U.S. pilots who were...

GH: Captured, right.

TI: ...captured, and then, and then tortured.

GH: Uh-huh. And the Kyushu Imperial University vivisection trial, these also involved American POWs, where they used salt water in lieu of blood, there was some experiments going on, and also they accused a person for eating the liver of the American pilot, but I don't think that happened.

TI: And so these were trials that were going on, was there lots of publicity going on during this time?

GH: Oh yes, uh-huh.

TI: I read someplace where, that people felt that the, that people, the Japanese, some of the Japanese, especially the scientists, were let off pretty easily, given that they shared the research with the Americans. Do you know anything about that?

GH: I can't recall the name of the unit, but that's where they used, experiment with poison gas.

TI: And so that was, and that wasn't the trials you covered? That was a different trial?

GH: No, to my knowledge, it was not brought to trial.

TI: Now, were these pretty emotional trials, or how would you describe those?

GH: It is. It's very, it's very unfortunate, I mean, to talk about torture, etcetera, that was something I wanted to forget, and I tried hard to forget.

TI: So the things that came up in this trial were so, were so horrible that you just as soon not, not remember those things.

GH: Right.

TI: Okay, no, that's, that's fine.

<Begin Segment 39>

TI: So after the war crimes, your stint doing the war crimes trials, how long did that last?

GH: I went there in November of '47, and I returned in May of '51. Now, in response to your question, I think it went for about three years. The other two years I worked with the attorney on certain investigation, as well as I served on the parole board. So when I served on the parole board, I said to myself, "My gosh, I interrogated him, apprehended him, took him to trial and here I'm sitting on the parole board." I knew it was full circle, and it was time for me to take advantage of the GI bill. So I had to come back by June of '51 to take advantage.

TI: When I'm... I'm curious, while you were living in Japan during this time right after the war, what was Japan like?

GH: Oh, it was, it was terrible. I did visit Hiroshima, and it was just flat. I, I recall it was on one of my investigations at, in Kyushu Imperial University, on the way back I dropped in on Hiroshima, and I asked for a tour. And there was a jeep driver took me around, and then all of a sudden he stopped, and I looked and he has his eyes closed, and I said, "What happened? Are you feeling all right?" He said, "This is where my family perished." Yeah.

TI: It must have been very difficult.

GH: Yeah.

TI: Were you able to connect with your family while you were in Japan?

GH: Yes, yes, uh-huh.

TI: And what was that like?

GH: Oh, it was, they greeted me, and my elementary school students came in, we had a party, my high school students, they, I've been back there about four or five times after the war, and each time, they used that as an excuse to get together. And last time when I took my two daughters to Japan, they gave me a big welcome party at a hot spring.

TI: Now, did you ever share with them the work you did or the fighting with the United States Army and that time?

GH: A little bit, yeah, because I've been interviewed by a graduate of my high school.

TI: Oh, so they interviewed you in Japanese, for the Japanese, for a Japanese project?

GH: Yeah.

TI: That's interesting. How about your, like, your wife's family? Did you also...

GH: Yes, uh-huh.

TI: And so how were, what's their reaction? Were they sort of surprised to see sort of Japanese Americans there?

GH: I'm sure there was, quite a few of 'em were quite surprised. But I think they were, many of 'em were very appreciative to the fact that there were Japanese Americans who knew the culture, knew the language and the customs, and I think the MISers served as a good bridge between the U.S. and Japan.

<Begin Segment 40>

TI: Now, during this period of time, was the MIS still pretty top secret, confidential? Or how much did people know about the MIS at this point?

GH: Frankly, I didn't pay much attention. As far as I was concerned, I just wanted to forget the whole thing, and I didn't even join the Merrill's Marauder's reunion, which was formed. I did join them in '92, but before then, I didn't want anything to do with them.

TI: So at what point did... growing up, I don't, see, I don't remember ever hearing about the MIS. At what point did information come out about the MIS more publicly?

GH: I think it, about in the early '70s, Freedom of Information Act.

TI: So, like the early '70s, around then?

GH: Yeah, I think.

TI: And what has been the reaction of people when they learn about the MIS and they find out that you were part of the MIS?

GH: Well, a lot of people didn't know about it, and they were surprised that... they said they did hear about the 442 and the 100th Battalion, but they said no way that we would be fighting the Japanese, yeah.

TI: And so people were, were surprised about this?

GH: Yeah, uh-huh.

TI: Now, has the, the government, the army, been supportive in getting the story out about the MIS so that people hear about it?

GH: Well, lately, yes. As a matter of fact, Dr...

TI: McNaughton? Yeah, McNaughton.

GH: I think the book on MIS will be published sometime this year.

TI: And have you helped him with that book?

GH: No, no.

TI: No, I'm looking forward to that book. I've heard about it, too, I haven't, I haven't seen any of the drafts yet.

<Begin Segment 41>

TI: So you returned, so after the war crimes, you returned -- because the GI bill was expiring -- so you returned back to the States. And so where'd you go from...

GH: I went, well, my wife was pregnant, and they couldn't, and the Korean War broke out. They couldn't assure my wife a bed, so she returned two months before I did, and she returned to San Bernardino, California, where her parents were residing. So when I came back, I did join her there, and the fact that I've been away from school for so long, I did go up to the local college to see if I could hack it. And I did go for two years and then I transferred to USC.

TI: And so you graduated from USC?

GH: Yes.

TI: And what was your, your major at USC?

GH: International relations.

TI: And then after you graduated with a degree in international relations, political science, what did, where did you work?

GH: I worked at the State Department as an escort interpreter.

TI: Okay, so you would help people who were traveling to Japan?

GH: Uh-huh. (Cultural Exchange Program).

TI: So did you stay, where were you based then?

GH: Well, I was still working on my master's, so I was still stationed in L.A. And then when I finished my degree, I did move to Washington, Washington, D.C.

TI: And how long did you work for the State Department?

GH: Actually, about three years.

TI: And then...

GH: Then I went to the Library of Congress.

TI: Okay. And what did you do at the Library of Congress?

GH: Well, the documents which they gathered in Japan were sent to the Library of Congress, and all those had to be processed. And I just happened to be in charge of the processing with the help of the (Japanese) students who were studying (...) at the local colleges.

TI: So these were Japanese documents that were being entered into the Library of Congress, having to do with the occupation, primarily, or the war?

GH: No, these were... well, there was one thing, I did help Professor Young from Georgetown University on the Manchurian documents.

TI: And so how long did you work at the Library of Congress?

GH: Oh, a couple years.

TI: Couple more years. And then what did you do?

GH: And then I went to (and) I retired from the National Security Agency.

TI: Okay, so you went to the National Security Agency, and can you tell us what kind of work you did there?

GH: Analysis.

TI: Analysis. But again, having to do with, with Asia or Japan?

GH: Yeah, it dealt with all countries.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 42>

TI: Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us?

GH: Well, if you come to Washington, I certainly wish you would visit the National Japanese American Memorial. It's a beautiful memorial, situated in Washington, D.C., equal distance from the capitol and Union Station. And I think it tells a lot of stories, the story about the Japanese immigrant to this country, the story about the Japanese American experience in the American culture, about the... valor and loyalty of men and women who fought to defend our country. Also it tells about the, how great our nation is, that, that admitted the error that perpetrated against its citizens, and made amends. Well, I guess...

TI: And how, how involved were you with helping to make that happen?

GH: Well, JAVA was involved, and as a member --

TI: JAVA meaning the Japanese American Veterans Association.

GH: Yes. I did participate. But most of all, I think it does remind us of the fragility of our Constitution, and the, and that it requires, to be vigilant, that it should not happen again. Well, I'm glad I had a chance to serve my country. I'm glad I had a chance to exercise my right and duties as a citizen, and to fight to defend my country and to fight for freedom and equality. And we fought side by side, shoulder to shoulder with Americans of many different cultures, and we proved, I hope, that America is not a matter of race, color of skin, but it has to do with heart, mind, spirit, conviction, and love of freedom.

TI: Very good. Well, thank you so much, that's a perfect way to end this interview.