Densho Digital Archive - Daryl Keck Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Today is Tuesday, May 24, 2005, and we are in the... town of Hammett?

DK: Yes.

TI: Hammett, Idaho, and today we're interviewing Mr. Daryl Keck. And I'm interviewing, my name is Tom Ikeda, and on camera we have John Pai. And just to let people know, in the room we have three observers. We have Darrell Heider -- I'm sorry, it's John...

Male voice: Steve.

TI: Steve. And...

Female voice: Jeanette.

TI: Jeanette. So, and they're all sitting and listening. But Mr. Keck -- or would you rather be called Mr. Keck or Daryl?

DK: Daryl.

TI: Okay, so Daryl, we're just going to start and talk a little bit about your life. And so why don't we go to the very beginning, and why don't you tell me first where and when you were born?

DK: I was born in Kansas, in a little town called Oketo, on a farm. And it was December the 5th, 1921.

TI: Okay, and what was, what was your given name when you were born?

DK: Daryl.

TI: And, like, what middle name? Did you have a --

DK: Max, Daryl Max Keck.

TI: Tell me a little bit about your parents. What were their names?

DK: My mother was Ida Weber Keck, and my father was Casper Emmett Keck. And his father was from Tennessee, and he was a farmer in Marshall County, Kansas. And so my dad followed his footsteps and was farming in Kansas when I was born, and I'm from a family of eight. I have four brothers and three sisters.

TI: Okay, before we go there, so your grandfather was Tennessee, your father was Kansas and that was where you were born. Before your grandfather, like your great-grandfather, was he also born in the United States, or where did he come from?

DK: No, I think he come from Germany, and they come and my great-great-grandfather and all come on a boat, third boat that come after Combass, and landed in Pennsylvania and settled there. So I think all the Kecks that are all over United States now are related from those seven brothers that come from Germany.

TI: That's amazing. Do you know what year that would have been?

DK: Sixteen hundred and something, but I don't know what year it is.

TI: Wow. So in terms of your family's roots, I mean, they're probably one of the earliest Americans. When you go around the United States and talk to people, have you ever found very many people whose roots go back farther than yours?

DK: Not a lot. I remember when I first went to California, there was only one Keck in the Los Angeles phone book, so there weren't very many around then.

TI: Well, I'm thinking even other families. So like when you talk to them and they trace their roots back. Like my, I could trace back my grandparents coming to the United States in 1910, but compared to you, you're like 1600s. I mean, that's, that's pretty amazing.

DK: No, I haven't really talked to anybody that's, it's been quite a process of running the family tree down, but there has been people working on that.

TI: How about your, your mother's side?

DK: She was born in Illinois, and her grandparents had come from Germany. And they moved out to Kansas and, western Kansas, and lived in a sod house. And she was raised there, and she remembers for fuel there wasn't very many trees in the area, and so they gathered buffalo chips to heat their sod house and do their cooking.

TI: Now, do you know the story of how your mother and father met?

DK: Not real good. I know her parents were going to go back to Illinois. The harsh life in western Kansas was too hard for 'em, and my mother had already met Dad and she didn't want to go back with 'em so she, they got married quite, she was quite young, I think. Sixteen, and my dad was twenty-something.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: And so they had eight children.

DK: Yes.

TI: And so where are you in the birth order?

DK: I'm in the second one, and my oldest brother has passed away and two of my younger brothers have passed away.

TI: And so you have, still, you have four other siblings.

DK: Yes, I have three sisters and one brother.

TI: Okay. And what was kind of the age range between the oldest brother and say the youngest sibling?

DK: My oldest brother was fourteen when my mother passed away and my youngest sister was about three months old.

TI: Wow, so she had eight children in the span of fourteen years.

DK: Yeah.

TI: And so your mother died when you were, what, about twelve?

DK: I was twelve, yes.

TI: Twelve years old.

DK: And she'd had a operation, a gallstone operation which was, at that time was quite drastic, but now is pretty simple-type operation.

TI: So how did the family change after your mother died? What was the difference?

DK: Well, it was during the Depression, 1934, and my father couldn't take care of us, so we were... I don't know, I think an uncle and aunt decided these issues, we were passed around to different relations and actually, I've been practically on my own since that time. I went and lived with my dad's cousin for one year and then since then I've been pretty much on my own.

TI: So, so all the siblings, all your brothers and sisters were kind of broken up and sent to different, different families?

DK: Yeah. And 1957, I think it was, we hadn't been together for twenty-some years, and I had a family reunion in Colorado, and so since that time, we've been having 'em every three years for some time and then every two years. We're having one this year in Idaho.

TI: So who, who put together that family reunion?

DK: My younger brother who lived in Denver at the time, he put this together and started it.

TI: And prior to that, had you ever gotten together with your other siblings?

DK: Yes, not all at one time. Right after Pearl Harbor, I took four of 'em that lived in a, pretty near in Kansas yet, to Illinois to see my brother and sister who were there with my grandparents.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: When you said growing up from twelve on, you were kind of like, on your own more, what does that mean? When you say, "on your own," what kind of activities would you do?

DK: Well, of course, like I say, it was in the Depression and any job was hard to get, and so I worked on ranches for as little as twenty-five cents a day and made my own.

TI: And so you would just, on your own, just go out there, look for jobs and doing this?

DK: Right, right. And eventually ended up in California working in a shipyard.

TI: So how did you get around, were you just hitchhiking, or how did you...

DK: Well, I, I saved my money pretty good and bought a car when I was sixteen, and so then I had a car after that.

TI: Now I'm curious, was this unusual for someone so young to be so independent?

DK: Not really. There was, during hard times, during the Depression there was, there was quite a few, but I say it wasn't a common thing, no.

TI: Well, so I'm curious; when you -- because the people who will be looking at this interview oftentimes are students about twelve through sixteen. And when, I'm just curious, when you think about your life growing up and how independent you are, or you were, and then you look at kids today, twelve to sixteen, do you see a big difference, or do you see kids being as independent as you were back then?

DK: As a whole, I'd say no, I've, we have several grandchildren, and of course, every one is different. But I don't see the initiative to do things on your own like I did at that time. I mean, you just had to survive.

TI: So it's kind of interesting, I mean, the sense I have from you is that, that sense of independence, I mean, being on your own at such a young age was something that was pretty important and powerful in terms of your, your whole life in terms of doing things. And that came because the times were really hard; this is the Depression era. In some cases, or when you think about our country today, do think sometimes things are too easy for, for these next generations?

DK: Yes, I do. I think that, my whole philosophy is you need to be responsible for your own actions and I can't see that this day and age. They're depending on their parents or authorities or something.

TI: So what do you think it would take for our country or for children today growing up in the United States to get more of that sort of strength and independence? What is it?

DK: Well, I've said many times it'd be terrible, and I don't know if they could survive it or not, but a depression does a lot of things.

TI: Hmm, that's, that's interesting. Because oftentimes in the interviews, I've interviewed lots of Japanese Americans, and they look back at what happened to them during World War II as a very hard time, but out of that came a, sort of a strength and resiliency that, that is really strong. So it's kind of an interesting theme that just, just occurred to me when talking to you about this.

DK: Yes.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So let's jump forward. You mentioned how you finally made it to California and worked in a shipyard?

DK: Yes.

TI: So talk about that. What kind of things were you doing in the shipyard?

DK: Well, when we first got to California, of course, I got the first job I could get a hold of, and that was in a manufacturing plant putting machinery together. And I went to night welding school to better myself, and started working for Consolidated Steel in East L.A. And they were needing welders pretty bad in the shipyards, so I took a maritime welding test and had to wait about three weeks 'til they got the results. But I went to work for Bethlehem Steel, which was building at time, had destroyers. I worked on four different destroyers.

TI: And so about what year was this? What...

DK: This was 1940 and '41.

TI: Okay. So 1940, '41, you're in shipyard and doing steel welding. Okay, so keep going -- well, one question, why did you choose California?

DK: I guess mostly because of the job situation. They were, of course, we were already making things and supplying England with things, and so there was quite a demand for workers and it was more so in California than there was in Kansas, by far. So that's the main reason.

[Interruption]

TI: So we're in East L.A., you started in Kansas and made your way to, to East L.A. I'm curious, I mean, what did you think of Los Angeles in the early '40s? Because here you're, you're going to, I imagine, a place where, Kansas, where it was more like homogeneous in terms of race, and probably more Caucasian, and then you go to East L.A., which probably had a wider mixture of different races. What, what did you think about East L.A.?

DK: As a general, the working place was not too bad, but as a general, people were, seemed to be to me, too busy to interact as far as friendships and that. It was harder to get acquainted, harder to go to entertainments and different things. But it was, it was different.

TI: So it's kind of funny, it's just like it is today. Sometimes you go to the city like L.A. or San Francisco or even Seattle, people are always so busy.

DK: Right, yeah.

TI: So it hasn't, hasn't changed in sixty, sixty years.

DK: It hasn't changed, no. No.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Okay, so, let's, let's talk... so you're, let's talk about 1941. At that point, you were working on making destroyers and things like that. Was there a sense with you that the United States would be going to war soon?

DK: No, most of the, of course, the politicians who are trying, we were isolationists as a country at that time. And so it was, it was going to be hard for the President to even declare war unless something pretty drastic happened, it seemed to me. But as far as working on the, working on those destroyers was an experience that I figured that we must be figuring on getting into war, you know, somewhere down the line. And 'cause they had contracts from the Navy, and so that's what they were fulfilling and it was on Terminal Island, and it was, there was an all-Japanese population on the island. And the, on the way on and off was a drawbridge, or a boat, and so all the workers on the three shipyards had to go across the drawbridge to get there morning, and well, three shifts.

TI: How interesting. So the shipyard was on Terminal Island, and I guess to give some background, so Terminal Island was, was Japanese because a lot of them were fishermen and there were lots of fishing boats and families who lived on Terminal Island, prominent fishermen, but the shipyard was there. So every day you would go into this community. Was there much interaction between the ship workers, shipyard workers and the Japanese population?

DK: Not a lot. There was no, at that time, there wasn't any hostility that you could see. There was two fish canneries, and that's where most of the people worked either fishing or canning fish on that island.

TI: Okay, so... I'm going to jump to Pearl Harbor, the bombing. Or is there anything else before that you wanted to, to talk about in terms of the experiences in Los Angeles or on Terminal Island?

DK: 'Course, there were getting to be more servicemen around, and I had a brother who was in the Marines, had been in four years, and a cousin that was in the Navy, couple of 'em, and I lived in Long Beach at the time. And they were up to see a football game between UCLA and USC. And we were sitting in the stands when the announcement was made that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and for all servicemen to immediately return to their bases.

TI: So this was on December 7th, a Sunday. So they, they played college football on Sundays back then?

DK: Yeah, yeah.

TI: Okay, so you were at a UCLA-USC football game when they announced it over the PA system.

DK: Right.

TI: When that happened, what were you thinking? What were your feelings when you heard that?

DK: Well, I figured it was a pretty dire situation and that if from what little I'd seen of the defenses we had, if their next move would happen the West Coast, we were, we were in grave danger.

TI: So explain that. When you say the, sort of the state of our defense on the West Coast, so my sense is you didn't think it was very good on the West Coast.

DK: No, there was Fort MacArthur, of course, right there, right close to San Pedro, and it was the only one that I knew of. We drove by it quite often, but...

TI: And going back to the stadium, so you were around lots of people when this announcement was made. What was the sense of the, of the crowd when that, when that happened?

DK: Well, immediately, I don't even remember whether they cancelled the game or not, but we left, 'cause my brother, they were in my vehicle and his car was at my apartment house. So I had to take him back and the urgency and the, I guess you'd call it patriotism or loyalty, man, they were, they were gonna get back to their base and do what they had to do, I mean, it was urgent. And, in fact, he drove his car so fast to get back there, he knocked a rod out and had to hitchhike the rest of the way. So it was that kind of atmosphere, I think. I think it's that point in time that the mindset changed. I know mine did and a lot of people around did. And the, now, it'd probably be something similar to the mindset of, of 9/11, brought the country together.

TI: So there was this sense of, even though it was a tragedy, I mean, in that tragedy pulling together and, and that feeling of camaraderie.

DK: Right.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: So, I'm curious; the next day, when you went to work back on Terminal Island and into a, a place where there were a lot of Japanese, I mean, were you apprehensive about, about crossing that bridge to Terminal Island?

DK: I don't remember that. Of course, we were carpooling and I was riding with, six of us riding in our car, and no, the only thing I can remember is the urgency to get, get some ships ready, 'cause we'd lost a lot of 'em.

TI: Did you have any sense of the change in the Terminal Island community, the Japanese community when you were driving through? Did you have any, was it any different than before?

DK: Not that I could see. 'Course, they had a complete Japanese town. They had a bank and stores and everything the Japanese needed there, and we didn't mingle with that; I mean, we went right through it but we didn't... just went to your parking lot and then from there you went to work.

TI: Well, in those, in those days and weeks after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, were there any interactions between the Japanese community and the workers, the shipyard workers?

DK: Well, on December the 14th, which you don't find much written about this -- and the news media in my view, the news media was really wise at the time. I was working in a double-bottom of a destroyer, which, welding, and it's not very accessible. You crawl in and you crawl out with asbestos clothes on, and there was a blackout near the end of my shift. And blackout or power outage as far as I was concerned; there was no lights and no power to weld. So I lay there for a while thinking, well, it'll be back on. But there was a lot of activity above me and then pretty quick I didn't hear any. So I backed out of there which is 30 feet in a, in a very cramped position to get out to where I could get on deck, and there was nobody around. And it was a blackout, there was no lights, and so I immediately tried to, as quick as I could, get to the parking lot. And when I got to the parking lot, all of the tires of the gentlemen that was driving that day were all slit with razorblades, and lots more of them.

TI: So lots more cars?

DK: Most of 'em.

TI: Not just one car, but multiple cars.

DK: Oh, hundreds of cars, and the only thing was some planes was circling L.A. at the time, and they were quite high, and Fort MacArthur was firing at 'em, and they went out of sight, it was over Long Beach at the time, and they went in a circle and they went over all the defense plants. And while sitting there, we seen two large searchlight-type lights giving some kind of a code to these planes over us. And they made a circle and started making a second circle around, and there was more lights showing up different places in south L.A., we could see from there. And it looked like, like dot and dash type messages being sent to these planes. And one of the planes got hit with these guns from Fort MacArthur had come down in South L.A. Well, we couldn't move because the drawbridge, the army from Fort MacArthur was on the island and picking up Japanese people, and they wouldn't let us off 'til they got it all cleared like they wanted it, then they let us off. By morning, me and my roommate went to see where this plane went down, we could see it go down but didn't know where it was at, of course. And by morning it was completely cleared and you couldn't tell where it even was. Still, the newspapers and the radio didn't say anything about it. Because by morning, getting, trying to get to there, the streets were so crowded with people leaving the West Coast, there was no way that any army reinforcements could come from outside of, outside of L.A. area because of the traffic leaving L.A.

TI: So, so let me sort of recap some of this. So, so this was on the evening of December 14th, so a week after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

DK: Right, right.

TI: While you were at the shipyard, not only were hundreds of cars, their tires slashed with razor blades, but then you saw circling planes. I guess one question, was your sense those were Japanese planes?

DK: Yes.

TI: Is that, is that kind of...

DK: Yes, I mean, I'm sure that if they didn't drop anything, so the talk amongst the people at that time was that they were trying to find out where the defense plants was, because none of 'em had blackouts, curtains to -- especially welding is so noticeable from a great distance, so I didn't, after the fourteenth, they told us on the fifteenth that we'd be laid off for a week or so 'til they got blackout screens put up.

TI: And as part of that, you said one plane was shot out of the sky and crashed in South L.A., but you weren't able to, to find that. I guess one question -- and you mentioned this earlier -- how you thought, well, one, the media didn't cover this, and you thought that was a wise thing. Was that part of the, to discourage panic, I guess? Because you were saying how people were streaming out of Los Angeles.

DK: Yes.

TI: Is that what you were thinking?

DK: Right. I mean, they, the other planes immediately turned and went back out to sea, so they quit firing. And then on Sunday, or on Monday the fifteenth -- that was on a Sunday -- I went back to see about going to work. I was working the night, from twelve to twelve. And they were loading several buses of Japanese on Terminal Island on buses, and the word was they were going to Tule Lake, California. And some of the things I've read say that was one of the camps.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So I'm, I'm curious; the media didn't cover this, but when you look at the, the books that sort of look at the history, there's, there's never been any mention that I could see of an attack on Terminal Island by Japanese planes. So why, why do you think this is? I mean, why, why do you think it's not, hasn't been documented after all these years?

DK: I think it has in the archives of Fort MacArthur, and so far I haven't been able to get them, it has turned it over from Army to Air Force and I think it'd be documented, I'm sure it could be. And I think that they, it was just an observation to see where the defense plants were, and after I went back to work there, there was no, everything was blacked out as far as welding and things on the, on the shipyard there on Terminal Island. And the, it was a different atmosphere then, of course, because there was no Japanese there.

TI: On Terminal Island?

DK: On Terminal Island.

TI: Because they were removed -- I can't remember, I think it was, seemed like a little bit later than December, but yeah, you're right. The whole population of Terminal Island was, they were actually the first -- even before President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, the military removed or had everyone excluded from, from Terminal Island and they confiscated fishing boats and things like that.

DK: Yeah. And I understand by reading records of Bainbridge, Washington, was the same.

TI: Yeah, under Executive Order 9066, Bainbridge Island was the first community, and that had a lot to do by being close to the Bremerton shipyards, as well as there was a top secret sort of listening or receiving radio station on the island, that was sort of, sort of high-security.

DK: Right.

TI: But going back, I'm still, I'm still trying to think. So you think there might be records in places like Fort MacArthur, because again, in terms of documentation, what I've looked at, I am only aware of two documented cases of, of attacks on the West Coast. One was in an oil refinery, I think a little farther north in California, where a Japanese submarine launched some shells to try to fire onto the, the oil refinery, and then later on in Oregon, there was another case where some balloons were launched with incendiary bombs to try to, they think, start a forest fire...

DK: Yeah.

TI: ...were the only two documented cases. So there, there are documented cases. What I'm trying to get a handle on, Daryl -- and I'm not trying to say that, that you didn't see all this -- but why would the government not document this? I mean, something as, as public -- I mean, here's something that is in Los Angeles, a plane being sort of, coming down in the heart of the city, that I would think that there's no way that couldn't come out. And so that's why I'm wondering.

DK: I don't know that either except that I know they were really cautious on account of the road situation. There was just two-lane roads in L.A. at the time, and so it would have been impossible for any help to, to come in there. And then the other issue about no sabotage, no espionage, well, the submarines sank or damaged twenty-seven ships, and that's documented, I can show you that. And I happened to work on one of them which was Absoroka, that was hit right off the coast of L.A., Santa Barbara, and the only reason it didn't sink was a lumber boat, and it had a hole in it as big as this house that I helped fix. So I know that happened, and that's recorded, and twenty-six other ships got hit from torpedoes or, or shells, at least.

TI: Yeah, I think the point when I said no sabotage or spying, what -- I should clarify. You're right, there were submarine attacks of ships leaving the West Coast, and there was, in fact, a Japanese spy ring on the West Coast before the war, headed up primarily by, like, Japanese consular officials, and they actually hired spies. The thing that hasn't been documented, though, is the linkage between the Japanese with the Japanese American population. That, and that's when you read documents and it says, "No spying or sabotage amongst Japanese Americans," that was the point that I think people have made in the past. And that's not to say that there wasn't spying, because the Japanese government did spy.

DK: Yes.

TI: In fact, what they, they did was the Japanese, in terms of who they got as spies, they tended to actually stay away from Japanese Americans, because they, one, they didn't trust them, and two, they felt that it would be too obvious. If someone had a Japanese face spying for the Japanese, it would be too obvious. So they actually hired more Caucasians to spy for them. At least, again, that's, that's from my book reading, and that's not my personal -- but I just wanted to, to clarify when you said that.

DK: Yeah. Well, we heard that night the army that was there from Fort MacArthur said they've got the number two spy in this bank building where this one light was, that night, and they incarcerated him, so, and I don't know the name, but that was what the soldiers told us.

TI: So they, they found someone who was, like, you thought, signaling the, the planes, and that was the number two spy. But again, did you get a sense that that person was Japanese American, or just a spy?

DK: I didn't have any idea. I assumed, being in the bank building, that he was either Japanese or real friendly with the Japanese to have been in that building.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So when this is all happening... what do you think, because in the, in the months following, President Roosevelt signed an executive order to remove the people from the West Coast, Japanese, people of Japanese ancestry. What was your sense? Did you think that was a, a good call by the, by the Commander in Chief?

DK: Well, I think it was for that area on account of there was the biggest population of Japanese Americans in Los Angeles.

TI: Actually, on the whole West Coast.

DK: Yeah. And I figured it more as a, not that very many of 'em was a danger, but for their own protection. I could see Americans living next door that lost a son in Pearl Harbor, that was going to be kind of looking for something to vent their anger. So I think it was a, on the part of the authorities, I think it was partly to make the West Coast harder to invade, and protection for the Japanese Americans.

TI: Hmm. So you think the... so two reasons. One, in terms of national security, but the other one was really almost protective custody, to, to protect the loyal Japanese Americans who were on the West Coast, from, from possible vigilante type of...

DK: You bet.

TI: Did you get a sense that there, that was a threat? When you, when you hear people talking about the Japanese Americans in the community, do you think they were sort of threatened or at risk during this period?

DK: Well, of course, I should say the mindset had changed from December 7th beyond, that it was hard to assess what might happen. I mean, if the, if the Imperial Japanese wanted to, they could have taken the West Coast pretty easily in the next few days. There would have been so much chaos that it wouldn't have been a very big battle, I don't think. But looking back on it, whether it was a threat, I don't know that much. But I know when people, their mindset changes, and you talk about freedom, that protecting freedom, you, more people are going to get up in arms than any other times that I know of. It's the, it's the... freedom is so precious and so wanted and so needed, that if it's threatened, you're gonna find a, quite an uprising to protect it.

TI: And so you think that was kind of the tenor right then in terms of what people were thinking?

DK: That's right.

TI: Was there much thought or discussion -- you mentioned how you thought the West Coast or the L.A. area was very vulnerable to an attack. I mean, was there kind of a sense that there could be an attack, that people were concerned and worried about that?

DK: Yes. Ordinarily, the, we would have had a few battleships and air carriers close by, but after the, many that got lost at Pearl Harbor, we were in sad, I was reading that just lately from the official records of the army in Washington, D.C. office, we only had very few planes was, was capable of deterring any threat at that time. Like bombers, we only had maybe forty on the West Coast. And had maybe two hundred fighter planes on the West Coast. And in a few days or months, within a month, we had quite a few, 'cause they brought 'em from all over. And I know Marsh Airfield out there was really busy. It was... so like I say, in my view, the difference in the mindset changed everything from that point on.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: And during this period, you mentioned how in that, one of the building, the bank building, they picked up a signal, someone was signaling. Were there other, other examples of cases where the people felt the Japanese were aiding the Japanese Imperial Army or Imperial Navy?

DK: Well, the fact that for the first thing, I imagine the officials thought that, like you were saying, maybe they didn't maybe trust Japanese Americans for their spying on there, but somebody had to inspire quite a few of 'em to cut that many tires during that time period. That was a very short time period. And they found several -- and I knew of one for sure -- was my brother's girlfriend's folks lived in, in a truck garden area south of (Bellflower). And their neighbor was a Japanese that was a real good Japanese truck farmer. He had one of these in a manure pile, they picked up that night. So there were several of them we could see --

TI: I'm sorry, they had what in the manure pile? That had...

DK: One of these big lights with a shutter on it --

TI: Oh, okay, so...

DK: -- to give these signals. So there was more, to me, there was a lot more people involved than, than the records show. They said there's no sabotage or espionage, and I, I guess looking in hindsight, fear probably had a lot to do with that.

TI: How so? When you say fear had something to do with what? The...

DK: Well, if they showed any of that after what happened at Pearl Harbor, that there'd be so many Americans up in arms, that they were in danger. If they showed any, any inclination of doing any sabotage or espionage.

TI: Oh, so... let me make sure I... so you're saying that if, if these stories were more publicly known, then, then the Japanese would be more at risk on the West Coast in terms of people getting angry and doing things.

DK: Right, right.

TI: So that's what you're saying. Because what you're, you're saying, so in addition to the, the December 14th -- so the tires were slashed as well as finding that Japanese truck farmer, the searchlight in the manure, the manure pile.

DK: Uh-huh.

TI: Okay. Any other examples? These are, these are all good, because what, what I like to do after these is to do more research to see what I can find, and so I was thinking if there was any other, other kind of examples or things that, that come to mind?

DK: Yeah. Well, my cousin, who I got to see a couple years ago and went in the service in Illinois in '44, I think it was, and then went to West Point to become a officer, he was a three-star general when he retired, he had the West Coast command, I think it's called the ninth -- at that time it was the ninth, I don't know what they call it now, he had the same job as General DeWitt who was making a lot of the calls that the president went by. And he was the one that was in charge of the West Coast when Fort MacArthur was turned over, changed from Army to Air Force. It's Air Force now, then it was Army. And he said those records went to Seattle in the archives, and that's where it'd be, I've had senators and congressmen trying to get them out, but so far I haven't got them.

TI: So probably in the National Archives up in Seattle?

DK: Right, right. So maybe you could get to 'em. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, I'm going to go up there and check... so it'd be the records from Fort MacArthur, is what I should look for.

DK: Fort MacArthur from December 14 and 15 of '41.

TI: And I'm sorry, and again, the gentleman who was in that high command post, what was, who was that again?

DK: General DeWitt.

TI: Well, yeah, General DeWitt, but the other gentleman you're talking about.

DK: Oh, my cousin? That was General Henry.

TI: General Henry. And he was with the army?

DK: He was Air Force.

TI: Air Force.

DK: And he's, he's retired now, he served thirty-some years.

TI: Uh-huh. And he was in, sort of in a peer position to General DeWitt? So he was also at a really high level.

DK: Yeah, he wasn't at the time of this happened, but later years, in 1970s and '80s.

TI: Oh, I see. Okay, so later on. So he had access to some of these, these records?

DK: Right. Yeah, I think this, this incident took, I think he said '80 or '81 that they changed Fort MacArthur from Army to Air Force.

TI: Okay, and that's when he was able to view some of these, these records.

DK: Yeah.

TI: No, I'll, I'll go up there. I mean, it's not that far away, the, it's called the Sand Point Naval, or the National Archives regional center, so I'll do that.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Okay, so talk about your life. During these, these weeks and months after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, what were you doing?

DK: Well, I worked there in the shipyard 'til October of '42, and in July of '42, Jeanette and I got married, and I, just like everyone else, had a draft card, and when it come up, I went up and joined the Air Force in Los Angeles. And I was swore in at Presidio Monterey and took my basic training in what is Castle Air Force Base now, it was Merced Air Force Base at that time.

TI: Now, I'm curious, why did you choose the Air Force?

DK: 'Course, I'd always liked airplanes. I'd only flew on one, I flew on one right after I joined at, took Jeanette back to Kansas City to live with her sister, and I flew on a plane back. So that was the first one, but I wanted to be a mechanic. I was a welder, I wanted to weld, go to welding school to learn hideyart. That's the only thing about welding I didn't know at the time and I wanted to learn that.

TI: Okay. And then after you did your basic training, then where were you, went back?

DK: We were stationed there and our son was born in Merced, and then in '44, I was picked to go as a -- I never did get to Air Force welding school. I took up sheet metal and learned to, what they call sheet metal specialist, to patch bullet holes. So I was picked and one other fella to go to Europe, to Italy. And so I got sent down to Kearns, Utah, to take overseas training. Took that, Jeanette and our son come up to see me, and then talked about reading the Japanese Americans books and the hard times that they spent in, in these internment camps. My hardest time in all this was leaving my wife and six-month-old son, and not knowing whether I'd ever be back or not. And so I got sent to Italy and was at a big air base in Italy for the next seventeen months patching bullet holes on B-17s and -24s.

And so I'd like to comment on the, there's been a lot written about how bad these camps were. And, 'cause I lived in Jerome for twenty years after I got out of the service, and I know a lot of people who worked there. And the part about what's out there now, the plaque that's out there now, says that it's a concentration camp, and I don't agree with that at all. There's no comparison. During my service time, for the first three or four months, I'd have loved to have had a tarpaper shack for shelter. I had generally a tent and a foxhole, so, and as far as disrupting my family, as far as what's been written about the internment camps disrupted the Japanese family, as far as most of what I've read, the families got to go in these camps and stay together, in fact. One time I had, that's on the internet now is that it was eight children in the family and there were going to be nine, and they had two parts of a barracks for their, so that's so much more than a foxhole. So that's the reason I want to tell what I know about it.

TI: So let me, let me summarize a little bit before you go on. So, so what you're saying is during times of war, people have to sacrifice.

DK: Right.

TI: And, and in your case, during war, you had to serve in, in Italy, or Europe, go to Italy, and as part of that, you were separated from your, your wife and newborn child, and not knowing you would come back. And so during this time, when the United States is in World War II, this is a time when a lot of people had to sacrifice. And that the, the people at a camp nearby here, the Minidoka camp, you're saying... and you mentioned you lived in Jerome twenty years later. So I'm thinking that you're saying that, that Jerome is not a bad place to live, I mean, in terms of, of...

DK: No.

TI: ...in terms of geography. And so you're saying that, that in... that it wasn't that bad for them. But, so, I'm going to throw something at you and see how you react. I mean, so earlier you talked about how one of the things that people in the United States sort of react to, sort of passionately about, is sort of protecting their freedoms.

DK: Right.

TI: And, and when I've interviewed Japanese Americans, that, that is kind of a similar thing. In some cases, you're right, the conditions in some cases were, were not terrible; they weren't death camps or anything like that, and then sometimes the weather got a little hot or cold and things like that, but the thing that they, they do comment on, the thing that was hardest for them, was being sort of stuck in a place where their freedoms were taken away, and that's what they were most passionate about. What do you have to say about, do you think that, can you understand that kind of feeling from these people?

DK: Oh, yes. I, I have read every book I could get on it, and it was. It was a hard time. But when Germany and Italy and Japan decided they wanted to take over the world, and for one, I read where the 442nd had never backed up; they went forward, they were... and the same way with the Japanese that were fighting for Japan, they, they were, fought to their death. And I think you'll find that people are doing that for freedom. They, the first Japanese to come over here, I read, is in the 1800s, they come to make their lives better. And so, and that's when, when my ancestors come from Germany, they come to make their lives better. And so there's nothing in the world that's more powerful -- there's two things: prayer is the most powerful power there is in the world, and freedom is the next. And you'll find that more people will fight to death over that than money or any, any other source.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: So, yeah, so I... so you're talking about how the Japanese came in the 1800s to have a better life and in many cases, not only the men, but the women also came, so they started families, and then when the war came up, I wanted to make this connection. You talked about the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, this was a segregated Japanese American unit that fought in Italy and France and Germany, and they were highly decorated. And you're right, they, many of them actually came out of this camp that was nearby, and believing strongly -- 'cause I've talked with many of them -- fighting for this sense of freedom that they wanted. And they felt -- and you mentioned earlier that they, they wouldn't give up an inch. In fact, they called themselves the Go For Broke group. That it's kind of interesting, in talking to them, they felt that they were fighting as much not only for themselves and their, and their fellow soldiers, but they were in some cases fighting for the freedom of the people in the camps, thinking that they wanted to show the rest of the country that they were as loyal as any other American. And that what, and that when they realized that eventually the people in the camps would be released, and they wanted, they felt that by their, by their actions and how well they fought, it would be easier for the others. I think you mentioned earlier -- and when we were talking, chatting before the interview -- that you actually, like, came in contact with some people from the 442 coming back on the ship?

DK: Yes.

TI: Can you talk a little bit about that, what that was like?

DK: Yeah, they were real, I guess you'd call it friendly, and wanted to talk, and one of 'em was actually, his relation lived close to Jerome and another one lived over in Ontario. And they were wondering where I was going to end up, and I told them I was going to be in Jerome. And so we had a good conversation and no bitterness. They had proven themselves and there was no, no -- on my part, there was no bitterness against them, and so I say that yes, our country did some wrong things, and yes, we're gonna make some more. And my philosophy in running construction crews for years, I didn't hire anybody that at first they wanted to know if they had a job for us, said, "Yeah, I do have." If their next question was, "What do you pay?" I didn't consider 'em, and then the next thing is if, if they showed aggressiveness as far as work goes, and especially the ones that thought they were so good, they, they tell me all these good things they've done, I said, "I don't want to hire anybody that hasn't made a mistake." Well, that's what this is all about. This is a mistake and I think we talked about this before, if we don't learn from these mistakes, maybe we wouldn't fight so hard for our freedom. But in the end we do, and we love freedom. Like I say, I put my life on the line and sixteen million more Americans. And over the time of history, since this is a country, there have been forty-two million people put their lives on the line, and like, three hundred thousand of them give their lives. So is this, do we need to run our country down? No. We need to build it up.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Okay, so we're now into the second hour, interview with Daryl Keck. And the way we ended up the first hour was you were talking about how, you know, in some cases, our country needs to be, in some cases, to move forward, it's going to make mistakes. And that, although it's unfortunate mistakes are made, you don't want a country or person or group to be stagnant, not to, to push and try new things, and so that's kind of a, kind of a natural good process when you are trying new things. But, now, in the case -- I'm jumping forward now, I'm going to jump to the 1980s -- because what happened during that period was more information started coming out of these, some of these more confidential documents, that indicated perhaps that the government made a mistake by putting all these people in camp. And so what the government did was they held hearings, they, they had researchers, and then what Congress concluded in a report was that, well, that the government did make a mistake. And they then gave that, passed a, sort of a law saying that it was a mistake, and then President Reagan signed it in 1988, it was the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, where, where he said that the government made a mistake and apologized to Japanese Americans. I wanted to get your sense in terms of how you feel about that. Do you think that was a good thing for the government to take a look at, at what happened and in doing so, admit that they made a mistake and make an apology?

DK: Well, I read all of that on the commission and read a lot of the, the testimonies. And I don't think it was... if I would have seen it in the paper -- I don't think it was publicized enough -- if I'd have seen it in the paper, I'd have had a much more of a voice in that than I have in this. The, not... from what all I've read of the days between Pearl Harbor and February the 19th, there was lots and lots of high officials discussing ways and means of how to do this. And several of 'em said they didn't want to be involved in American citizens being put behind barbed wire. And so from that standpoint, I don't think the commission was well enough advertised. They could have got lots, lots more testimonies in support of the actions that were taken. And so I think now, trying to write something, like I said before, forty or sixty years after it happened is, is impossible, and there has to be a lot of guessing, so I think there's a lot of guessing in the testimony and the records that were showed. I've read both sides, the, it's pretty compelling from the Japanese Americans' side of it, and I read Colonel or General Lowman's book also of a reasoning why it was, the commission wasn't, didn't answer all the questions. There could have been a lot more questions asked, lot more questions answered.

TI: This is about, like, the MAGIC cables?

DK: Yeah, the MAGIC cable and all of that. So as far as what that's done, and as far as compensation, I didn't agree with that, because I spent nearly four years and haven't had any compensation, so I don't see the reasoning for the compensation. And if, if apology that, if, like I said, a country or a person or an organization that doesn't make mistakes don't get nothing done. So as far as apologizing for mistakes, I think the president didn't know all the facts, or he wouldn't have made it. I think the same way with our governor. I don't think that the, what he signed as a proclamation for February the 19th, it was the wrong way to go. I think if they want to find a cause, Iwo Jima lost American citizens, like 27,000 in just a short time as far as hardships or as, being compensated for something, I think them widows and children probably should have had more compensation than they got. So no, I don't, I don't feel good about the...

TI: So let me see if I can summarize a little bit. So, so looking back at, at the government's decision, what you're saying is back in the '80s, it was perhaps faulty that one, they didn't get enough, enough response or information from different perspectives, that perhaps it was one-sided in terms of the testimonies that, that came out. And that if more of that information were available, that perhaps the government's findings would have been different, that instead of...

DK: Right.

TI: And as part of that, you're against the payment, the redress payment, which... so every Japanese American who was in these camps received twenty thousand dollars, is the amount. And then I wasn't quite sure, and the apology you felt was also maybe not needed? Or you felt that was okay? I wasn't quite sure what you...

DK: Well, apology for the president to sign that order, with the information he had -- and I don't, I don't think he needed to apologize. I mean, there was a reason.

TI: Okay, so, so even the apology, then. And so part of it was you were saying that, essentially, the analysis that was done back in the '80s and even more currently, you still feel isn't really hitting the nail on its head. You think it's still like -- and I think you mentioned earlier -- it's hard to do this sixty years after the fact, and that perhaps... so do you think in some ways history is being changed in some ways? Or how... I'm trying to get a sense because the vast majority of historians, politicians and others, if you ask them, would say what happened to Japanese Americans was wrong, it was right to apologize, it was right to give 'em money, and now it's time to move forward. I'm getting a sense, though, you're saying, no, we still, that we still need to look at it a little bit more. Is that...

DK: Well, as far as for the generation now and that, I don't know that'd help it. For generations to come, and at say, fourth grade and eighth grade is the main history, for them to get information that their government was wrong without explaining why they were wrong, then it's like, one professor put it, it isn't education when it's one-sided; it's propaganda. And quite a little of the books that I've read is propaganda, on both sides. The truth needs to be told, and the hardships, yeah, everybody, I mean, everybody in America had hardships. And they, they made sure we kept our freedom. I mean, it was, it was a hundred percent, nearly, effort because we love freedom. I mean, it's priceless. It's, you can't buy it, you can't acquire it, inherit it, or any other way. Freedom is, is priceless.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: Well, something we, we both agree on is how it's important to learn from history.

DK: Right.

TI: And again, looking forward to future generations, so let's talk about, what can we learn from what happened sixty years ago? And so, because in our country today, there are, there are some similarities. We are fighting a "war on terrorism," we are in Iraq, there are, it's an Arab country, and there is a sizeable Arab American population. And so going forward, what, what can we learn from what happened sixty years ago, going forward, and how the country should respond now? I mean, what, how do you think? Are we doing the right thing now or do you think we are doing, repeating mistakes?

DK: I, I think we're doing the right thing if we tell both sides. The whole truth is, needs to be told. And as far as admitting our wrong to help us, that's the way it's been done; we can't undo that. And we need to go forward; hatred will kill you. We shouldn't have it. I mean, that's the worst thing there is.

TI: So, but, so going forward in terms of security, national security right now, right now I think the government has, has picked up a few people, they've deported Arab Americans, do you have a sense that we are striking a balance? I mean, they haven't taken the step of trying to round up Arab Americans and put them in camps or anything like that, and yet they are monitoring Arab American populations. I mean, do you think that's about the right balance, and could that have been done with, say, the Japanese American population sixty years ago, and do you think we've learned from that, or not?

DK: Well, I think we've learned, and the thing that strikes me -- out here now on the plaque says they're concentration camps. We need to change that. But as far as telling this story, I'm all for it. I'm all for it.

TI: As long as it's, it's both sides.

DK: As long as it's both sides.

TI: So how do you think it'd be good... I mean, so right now, I think one side, especially from the Japanese American perspective, is being told. I mean, there are books, the National Park Service is listening very much to the Japanese American community. What could the National Park Service do to voice this other perspective? I mean, what, how do you see that happening?

DK: Well, you'd have to go through the media, of course, which hasn't really been done very widely. I'm sure you as Japanese Americans all know about it because there are several books by Japanese Americans that tell it. And as far as, as far as spending a lot of money out there to tell the wrong story, I'm not in favor of it. To tell the whole story, I'm in favor of it. And like I say, it isn't for me, it isn't for any of my relations or nothing, it's... any way you can tell the truth, and the best way to the masses is the way to go. And as far as these Muslims, I don't know if we're doing the right thing. I think we should learn from, probably have learned from putting the Japanese American citizens in, behind barbed wire. And by the way, barbed wire at Hunt camp was to keep the cows out; it wasn't to keep the people in. The guard stations were there for a few that maybe would cause some damage. I mean, they had, they had people's names that was, might give 'em trouble, and then as soon as they could, they got 'em, took 'em back to camp at Tule Lake and screened 'em farther. I mean, this was a screening camp out here, as far as all I can read. Some people stayed a year, some people stayed two-and-a-half years, the full length, but if they cooperated and give their side of the story, they were sent back to live as long as they didn't go in around a defense plant.

TI: Well, or on the West Coast. They couldn't go back to the West Coast. And generally there were three ways that people could leave the camps. There was, you're right, they could get, like, a school leave, if they could find a university that would accept them off the West Coast, like on the East Coast. And then there was a work leave process where if they could find a job and a sponsor to have them, and the third one was military service. Those were the, the three. And those were for only the U.S. citizens, you couldn't happen to the, the Japanese aliens. But you're right, and so there was a range of how long people stayed in the camps. The vast majority, though, stayed there for the duration, though. But your sense, though -- I want to get back to the, the barbed wire and the guard towers. I mean, still, what I read -- and I want to get clarification -- the people in the camps, although perhaps it was perhaps easy to get through the barbed wires and past the guard towers, I mean, still, they were not free to come and go. They, they needed a pass or permission to leave. It was, it was not an open camp in that sense. And you're probably right in that if they decided to do a mass exodus, the barbed wires were not going to hold them back, but there was never any of that. Again, these were U.S. citizens feeling that, that they wanted to help the country in any way they can, at least, many of them were that way.

DK: Yeah. And I admire the ones that were in the 442nd and the ones that got cleared and went back and worked in some kind of, any kind of work to further the war. I mean, they, if they were a cook or a dishwasher or whatever, they were helping the war. As long as they weren't helping the enemy.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So let's go back to thinking about what the National Park Service is, is doing. What do you think they should do out there?

DK: Well, as far as -- they only got seventy acres, so they can't recreate the camp, which I'd be against. But a monument and telling both sides of the story is perfectly all right with me. And I think that down the road, busloads of kids from schools and same thing as the interpretive center in here in the Oregon Trail, I worked on it for twelve, fourteen years, and that's, they had dozens of kids there telling about that. And so consequently, Native Americans and European Americans are better, getting along better now than they have in the last two hundred years, or hundred and fifty years. So that's what needs to happen with this, is people having conversations -- just like we have, or are having, or in your workplace. Now, I was disappointed in -- and I never talked about this much, he hasn't either, most of us didn't talk about the hardships, because it was just what you had to do. But my daughter works in a place where there's a Japanese American there, and he's got her convinced that we didn't treat the Japanese Americans right. And I feel bad about that, said that Germans and Italians didn't get picked up. Well, they did get picked up, not en masse. They got, like, forty-four thousand of 'em on the West Coast of German, and twenty-seven thousand, or maybe it's the other way around.

TI: Twenty-seven hundred, I think. It was like forty-four hundred and twenty-, I think the numbers I've seen in terms of the actual internment, there were, yeah, roughly about three thousand Italians, about forty-five hundred Germans, and then, actually, in that same sort of roundup -- this was done by the FBI -- there were about fifty-five hundred Japanese aliens. And so what happened right after Pearl Harbor was the FBI picked up, oh, roughly eleven thousand people throughout the United States, and they were put in Department of Justice internment camps. What I think Japanese Americans are saying, though, what happened only to, to this other group, which primarily were U.S. citizens, was this round-up and put into places like Minidoka, that was, that a different part. But you're right that German nationals, Italian nationals, along with Japanese nationals were all picked up, because they were viewed as potentially the most, as the potentially "dangerous" ones, I think.

DK: Uh-huh. There was, in fact, just ten miles east of Hunt, in Minidoka County which this isn't, it's called Minidoka but it isn't, there's a German and Italian camp, right there in ten miles of each other.

TI: So an internment camp was there.

DK: Yeah, internment camp, yeah. I mean, it was more like a, treated a little different than the Japanese got treated. There was more guards per person and all that.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: I want to go back, so your, your vision of this, of this place at the Minidoka camp is a place where, where in some ways, people can meet both from, like, a Japanese American perspective, but as well as from different perspectives where they can actually, as you mentioned, talk about these things. And, but for that to happen, your sense is right now it's too one-sided. It's only telling the view of one side, and isn't, isn't telling the full story.

DK: Right.

TI: And so that, that's where you're coming from, and if that could happen, then you would be supportive of that kind of, kind of place?

DK: Oh, yeah. I mean, this is a free country.

TI: Even the, even the millions of dollars that it would cost? Our tax-paying dollars?

DK: Well, I would cringe a little, yes. [Laughs]

TI: I do, too. [Laughs]

DK: But if the story is, truth is told, truth is freedom. It'll make you free. So yes, I'd be in, in the overall picture I'd be in favor of it, because now, it's spreading hatred, and that won't get you no place.

TI: And you think there's that potential if, if you feel, if the people, like, locally feel that perhaps it's a little bit too one-sided, then you think perhaps that would actually be more of a divisive or polarizing type of situation rather than a unifying one?

DK: Right.

TI: And that's, that's what people like you think.

DK: Yes, that's right. You bet.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So let's, let's switch gears a little bit, and let's now talk about schoolchildren and what you would like them to kind of take away from this. I mean... I'm trying to think of the question to ask. When, I think we've talked about how it's important for schoolchildren or anyone to be able to think for themselves, I mean, to be given information, different sides, and for them to then be able to, to digest it a little bit, learn, and then make their opinions. And so what's the best way for that to happen? How can we use kind of this historical event, something that happened, and do that? Do you have any ideas?

DK: Well, I think it would have to be like you're doing, or figuring on doing on the internet. That's probably the most, fastest and best way to get knowledge out. And as long as that's, that is done in a way where it balances, there'd be a lot of, lot of kids that would look at it and say, "Well, my country made a mistake, but they made it right. Let's go on." I mean, I don't, I especially don't want to live in a place where, where our country does something and doesn't make it right. I mean, this is the last place, in very few places left where that's happening. It's either some kind of dictatorship or man, you see what the people of Afghanistan, they hadn't voted in years. They voted in record numbers, and Iran, the same way. That shows freedom is wanted.

TI: So here's, here's a question that I think the United States is going to have to kind of grapple with. The United States is changing; it's evolving, and as you're saying, it makes mistakes. But part of these demographic changes, I mean, it's becoming a country that was more sort of Western European-centric in terms of Britain, France, Germany, in terms of making up the majority, and I've read numbers, and someone just shared, they said by the year 2040, so maybe in, like, thirty-five years, there will be no majority. That, in fact, there will be no sort of racial group that will be the majority anymore. There will be, everyone will be a minority, essentially. And in a democracy where there needs to be dialogue, there needs to be discussion, how do you see that working? Do you think our country can survive that? The diversity of people coming from different backgrounds, different cultures and different beliefs, religious beliefs, different political beliefs. And into this wild mix we have this discourse, this discussion to try to form a democracy, in some cases. Can our country survive that?

DK: Well, I would certainly hope so, and it's going to take everybody's effort. I mean, it has to be cooperation and an example. If we start treating human beings wrongly, there'd be an uprising. I mean, this is a country that's been for freedom all of these years, and like I say, to see the difference in 1941 and the average person was, was inspiring. I mean, they, they wanted to help, they wanted to know how they could help. Retired people, women and riveters and welders and everything you could think of, because they wanted freedom. I mean, I didn't want to learn Japanese or I didn't want to learn German or Italian or what. I mean, that's, that's something that either you were, your patriotism either is, you're born with it, I guess, a certain amount, maybe your environment, whoever you're raised around. Your patriotism is something you can't buy, and it's something you can't learn in books. It has to be, come from the heart. And with the Lord's help, anyone can get it. I mean, it's, it's a... I suppose from that point, it's an inherited virtue, maybe. [Laughs]

TI: So it's almost innate. You're born with some, some degree of patriotism. And what determines that? I mean, what determines who gets more or has more patriotism than someone else?

DK: Well, it comes down to whatever you do, you're responsible for it. You'll be judged on whatever you do.

TI: So it's almost like you're... are you, is it sort of like patriotism is similar to, like, character? Is that what you're...

DK: Right.

TI: And so people are born with or without some sense of character, and that is the, is the sort of building blocks of things like patriotism.

DK: Right. I mean, and the process isn't easy, and it isn't short. It's a lifetime.

TI: So you mentioned things like church and school, are those kind of the institutions where things like this need to be learned? I mean, that's, those are the places that, that as communities, as groups come together, that's a place where this happens?

DK: Right. I mean, we know that there's lot of homes where neither one of that is very prominent, and it takes a community then to show it. I don't, I don't mean go out there and catch every kid by the ear and tell him he's doing wrong and do right, that's not the way to do it. You've got to build relationships and get it across.

TI: That and I think this is, the group process is powerful, I think, and what I find, because I travel around the world talking to people -- not around the world so much, around the country talking to people. And what I'm always amazed or appreciative is, is as sometimes we think of our country as sometimes as being divisive, my sense is there is really more common ground that we have as, as Americans, than people really know or understand. And yeah, we have our differences, but I think sometimes we focus too much on our differences and not so much on, on what is common. And that, I think, is -- and I'm not sure where it's coming from -- but a failure of our country, and that's what strikes me in doing this interview with you.

DK: I think that you got to have education, and as far as faith, you gotta have that to live it out. And every morning, I mean, us guys who are not going to be around too long, every morning that sun comes up, that's a glory, and you see it go down at night. Last night we, or night before that we were coming back from Boise, we seen the moon up and the sun going down. So, I mean, that's, when you get our age, you kind of appreciate that more, don't you, Darrell? [Laughs]

TI: Well, good. So I'm... is there anything else? Or John, or is there anyone that wants to ask Daryl a question as we're finishing up? I mean, I finished my questions. Is there anything else? Okay, well, thank you. This was, this was enjoyable, and I think it was an excellent interview, so thank you very much.