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TI: So I'm, I'm curious; the media didn't cover this, but when you look at the, the books that sort of look at the history, there's, there's never been any mention that I could see of an attack on Terminal Island by Japanese planes. So why, why do you think this is? I mean, why, why do you think it's not, hasn't been documented after all these years?

DK: I think it has in the archives of Fort MacArthur, and so far I haven't been able to get them, it has turned it over from Army to Air Force and I think it'd be documented, I'm sure it could be. And I think that they, it was just an observation to see where the defense plants were, and after I went back to work there, there was no, everything was blacked out as far as welding and things on the, on the shipyard there on Terminal Island. And the, it was a different atmosphere then, of course, because there was no Japanese there.

TI: On Terminal Island?

DK: On Terminal Island.

TI: Because they were removed -- I can't remember, I think it was, seemed like a little bit later than December, but yeah, you're right. The whole population of Terminal Island was, they were actually the first -- even before President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, the military removed or had everyone excluded from, from Terminal Island and they confiscated fishing boats and things like that.

DK: Yeah. And I understand by reading records of Bainbridge, Washington, was the same.

TI: Yeah, under Executive Order 9066, Bainbridge Island was the first community, and that had a lot to do by being close to the Bremerton shipyards, as well as there was a top secret sort of listening or receiving radio station on the island, that was sort of, sort of high-security.

DK: Right.

TI: But going back, I'm still, I'm still trying to think. So you think there might be records in places like Fort MacArthur, because again, in terms of documentation, what I've looked at, I am only aware of two documented cases of, of attacks on the West Coast. One was in an oil refinery, I think a little farther north in California, where a Japanese submarine launched some shells to try to fire onto the, the oil refinery, and then later on in Oregon, there was another case where some balloons were launched with incendiary bombs to try to, they think, start a forest fire...

DK: Yeah.

TI: ...were the only two documented cases. So there, there are documented cases. What I'm trying to get a handle on, Daryl -- and I'm not trying to say that, that you didn't see all this -- but why would the government not document this? I mean, something as, as public -- I mean, here's something that is in Los Angeles, a plane being sort of, coming down in the heart of the city, that I would think that there's no way that couldn't come out. And so that's why I'm wondering.

DK: I don't know that either except that I know they were really cautious on account of the road situation. There was just two-lane roads in L.A. at the time, and so it would have been impossible for any help to, to come in there. And then the other issue about no sabotage, no espionage, well, the submarines sank or damaged twenty-seven ships, and that's documented, I can show you that. And I happened to work on one of them which was Absoroka, that was hit right off the coast of L.A., Santa Barbara, and the only reason it didn't sink was a lumber boat, and it had a hole in it as big as this house that I helped fix. So I know that happened, and that's recorded, and twenty-six other ships got hit from torpedoes or, or shells, at least.

TI: Yeah, I think the point when I said no sabotage or spying, what -- I should clarify. You're right, there were submarine attacks of ships leaving the West Coast, and there was, in fact, a Japanese spy ring on the West Coast before the war, headed up primarily by, like, Japanese consular officials, and they actually hired spies. The thing that hasn't been documented, though, is the linkage between the Japanese with the Japanese American population. That, and that's when you read documents and it says, "No spying or sabotage amongst Japanese Americans," that was the point that I think people have made in the past. And that's not to say that there wasn't spying, because the Japanese government did spy.

DK: Yes.

TI: In fact, what they, they did was the Japanese, in terms of who they got as spies, they tended to actually stay away from Japanese Americans, because they, one, they didn't trust them, and two, they felt that it would be too obvious. If someone had a Japanese face spying for the Japanese, it would be too obvious. So they actually hired more Caucasians to spy for them. At least, again, that's, that's from my book reading, and that's not my personal -- but I just wanted to, to clarify when you said that.

DK: Yeah. Well, we heard that night the army that was there from Fort MacArthur said they've got the number two spy in this bank building where this one light was, that night, and they incarcerated him, so, and I don't know the name, but that was what the soldiers told us.

TI: So they, they found someone who was, like, you thought, signaling the, the planes, and that was the number two spy. But again, did you get a sense that that person was Japanese American, or just a spy?

DK: I didn't have any idea. I assumed, being in the bank building, that he was either Japanese or real friendly with the Japanese to have been in that building.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2005 Densho. All Rights Reserved.