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AI: Well, I really wanted to ask about, also, in the, going on the 1950s was, of course, now, because it's the fiftieth year anniversary of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision, desegregating schools, I was wondering, right now, it's kind of been in the news, but at the time, in 1954, do you recall much about, hearing much about that up here in Seattle? Did that make much of an impact here in your community of people?

EH: What, the Brown decision?

AI: Yes.

EH: (Yes), I think...

AI: Because a lot of you had young kids at that time, some of you were interracial couples, there were black families.

EH: Now I, you know, I, I remember how exciting the Brown decision was, only because I had been involved in the American Council for Race Relations in Chicago, and every time a major news or new impact came on like that, how exciting it was for the whole office. I remember when Satchel Paige got hired and when Jackie Robinson got hired, those were exciting times. Although when Ralph and I -- after Ralph and I got married, and I was working at the YM, we decided that we ought to take advantage of the GI Bill that gave us low interest rates to buy a house. And because Ralph was going to the university and expected to continue in graduate school, and I was working at the YMCA, we tried to find a house in the U District. They would not show us one. I went to Tom Coppage, who was on the board of the YMCA, and even his office would only show us houses south of Madison. And if we wanted to -- the ironic thing was, the neighbor that was allowing me to use their bathroom facilities, the house was, had gone on, up for sale for eleven thousand dollars, and it was a, a big, two-story colonial kind of -- not a colonial house, but two-storied with a porch, and that was (going to) be ideal. But the real estate people would not, not even consider it. So they took us south of Madison, and we looked at one or two houses. The one house particularly was appealing on Thirty-second, but we thought the lot was too small, and we went farther to Twenty-seventh and Olive, 1716 Twenty-seventh Avenue, and got that house. But it was really interesting that they would not show us anything north of... north of Madison, now, well, probably within five years, we could have looked at something in Montlake, maybe. No, not even into Montlake, but the north, north of Madison. But anyway...

AI: Excuse me, what, what kinds of things would they say to you in refusing to show you? Would they come right out and say because Ralph's black, or because you're both not white, or...

EH: (Yes), that, "This, this area isn't open to you." Or, "There isn't anything available for you in this neighborhood."

AI: And you would just know that they meant because...

EH: Oh, (yes), and if you wanted the house, you couldn't... I suppose if you wanted to challenge it, you could have, but in those times, when money's very limited and Ralph's in school and I'm maintaining a small job, and then about to have a little one -- in fact, I was probably five months pregnant when we were in, we were at United something, Federal Savings Bank on Forty-fifth, and Ralph said, it was, like, May, April or May, and it was warm. Ralph said, "Don't even unbutton that coat" -- [laughs] -- in the office, and so, and we could only get it because I managed to do a payroll deduction system and had a, just a barely, a bare amount in, stashed in the bank for closing costs and that kind of thing. But...

AI: And Ralph didn't want to you take off your coat, because if you did --

EH: Because, (yes), because my pregnancy would show, and...

AI: And then the loan officer would...

EH: (Yes), would probably not... you know, when, there are times now, even, when a single parent has trouble getting a mortgage, and it's kind of ironic, because Ralph was only, in those days, we were getting a hundred and five dollars for, for GI Bill. And he did manage to have a part-time job here and there. Interestingly enough, the YMCA would not hire him for any kind of group work, they would only hire him as a janitor, and that's kind of typical for the YMCA in those days. Eventually, when we got into that house, got into the house in Central Area, the YMCA -- the boss I had was a very good, well, Verne Emery, and there was a black YMCA director at what's now Matthew, Meredith Matthews YM, and on Twenty-third and Olive, and I think his name was Coleman, he was in the office, and for some reason, those guys wanted to see my new house. They wanted to see what kind of house we were able to get. Coleman had -- who was black -- had trouble getting a house that he wanted. Eventually, I don't know, he must have bought a house, but they wanted to see the house. So I said, "Okay, let's take a ride." And they were very impressed at the quality of house we got.

The house we got was built by a Swedish fellow, Mr. Ostram, all by himself. He was working for a lumber company, lumber mill, and he saved the best pieces for himself, 'cause he knew he was (going to) build this house. And this was during the Depression, he had this stash of lumber for himself, and he built the house all by himself. It was a, it was four bedrooms, small bedrooms, and a full basement, and solidly built. We were really very fortunate to get that. And it had a sizeable yard, except the terrain was sloped towards what was then Twenty-eighth Avenue, later became Empire, now it's Martin Luther King. But three... let's see, four months later, he came back, and, with tears in his eyes, pleading with us to let him buy the house back. [Laughs] Because he said, "I put every nail in this. This is my house." And (yes), I really, we really felt badly for him, but you have an infant and you're struggling financially -- he was willing to give us back our money and help us find another house, and all that kind, he was a very good fellow. But again, they were white, she had a, his daughter had just finished Garfield and was in nursing school, and the, he said the women wanted to move to Ballard, and I suspect that might have been a racial issue. The street we lived on had two black families, they were still predominantly white, but I guess in those days they could see the change coming, and, but it was a, it was a good neighborhood.

And as far as school goes, there wasn't that much trouble. Madrona was, was quite a hike for my kids, but Madrona was probably a third black, if that much. Still a lot of Asians, and, and then the rest white, because it covered from Twenty-third down to the lake, and the school was right at the top of the hill, so the east half is particularly, prominently white, and the west half is not all black -- Kuroses became fast friends, because they were, they were on Thirty-second and the school was on Thirtieth... no, they were on Thirtieth and the school was on Thirty-second. But (yes), a lot, there were half a dozen... we became kind of lifelong friends, we kept that, attended weddings and it was a good mix of school, and it was, Madrona was in a location where it was very attractive for UW faculty and Group Health doctors, so it was an exciting area to live in.

We kept up a lot of activities, I got involved in PTA, and we did a lot of innovative kinds of things. But in those days, in the '50s and into '60s, it was time for a change. And in that kind of a well-integrated neighborhood, you get concerned about schools, you're ready to do things. We looked at ungraded primaries, and we traveled a bit to go places to find things like that. But it was, it was a good community.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.