<Begin Segment 31>

TI: So what, what kind of things would Clyde Black and his group do?

RM: Whatever the dirty tricks took, they would do.

TI: Is there, do you recall either Dave Beck or Clyde Black talking about any other groups that they would target in a similar way?

RM: No. It's strange, he never mentioned African Americans or other, Filipinos. We talked about the Japanese at the top of the pass, and we did talk about when the federal government said, "You have to take minorities into the teamster union," during World War II. And Clyde Black said that it was the most difficult time for the union. And, and, it was either that or they weren't going to get control of the Fort Lewis, McCord, the different federal installations, and so they had to. And Clyde Black was placed in charge of that union. And, and Clyde Black was just an interesting person in so many ways. He, he, he had no... he was not a race-baiter or anything, and the union was thrown open to all minorities, that, that one local. And, and so they got around the federal requirement in that fashion. But he was... and I think, by and large, he was the taller man, at least, from what I gathered -- he started out as, as, as I said, on the "dirty trick squad," but he wound up being head of the, a local that the minorities were in, and he represented them to the best... in talking to people who were there, beside Clyde Black, people of color, they, they all said that he, he was, he represented them as best they could. And he did.

TI: What an interesting, what an interesting opportunity you had in talking about that.

RM: Yeah. Well, he was dying. He didn't... when a person, in the interviews that I've conducted, when a person is reaching the end of his life, he has terminal cancer, heart disease or something, it's an entirely different interview. And I can remember interviewing a longshoreman the day before he died. He called and he wanted me there, he wanted to "talk right now." And I went over, and we talked about his being a member of the Communist Party and his hopes that we could all share the wealth of America. It was an idealistic approach, and he said, "You know, it got perverted by both sides, the government and my Communist Party." Anyway, it was a fascinating interview, and I felt, had far more depth than anything I'd, and I've had that happen four times.

TI: And so when you say the depth, I mean, what, what comes out of that, an interview, when someone knows that he or she is going to die? Is it...

RM: An effort to, to say the truth. That fellow I'd interviewed before, and he pooh-poohed that he'd been in the Communist Party, and we both knew, and we were, and we were just waltzing through the interview. When he knew death was coming, it was an entirely different interview. "I want it known what I believe and stood for."

TI: Interesting.

RM: And I've had that happen with several people.

TI: Good.

<End Segment 31> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.