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TI: So was it hard for you, because after, after three years in Orofino, you decided to go Seattle to, to pursue your doctorate.

RM: That's right.

TI: Was that a hard decision for you?

RM: No, the, it was not hard academically, it was hard to -- because Lorraine would have to leave her family. And in, but I told her I wanted to try. I don't know what propelled me into wanting to try, but I wanted to. And I itched to do it. And so I... and at Orofino, we weren't going anywhere. I was earning $110 a month for, I think, a eight-month contract. And we weren't going to be able to support a family on that. And so it was easy to make the decision to go to the University of Washington. I remember I got the catalog, and I looked at those history classes. My gosh, they were just, oh jeez, I ached to do it. And so, and I, we wrote for, and I was accepted at the University of Washington. And so we came over, put every, all our belongings in the back end of the car, and came to Seattle. And that was in the summer of 1951. I enrolled and I was taking solid history classes, graduate-level, and they were wonderful. And here I met the liberal establishment of Seattle, and they were --

TI: This was the faculty at the University of Washington?

RM: Yeah, the faculty.

TI: Well, this is, I want to talk to you, because during this time, this was 1951, so this was during a period where in the United States, there was a strong fear of Communism.

RM: Oh, yeah.

TI: And the liberal establishment. And in particular, at the University of Washington faculty, there were people who were perceived as, as Communist.

RM: Yeah. Now let, let me go back to the University of Idaho on that issue. When I was interviewed for the job in Orofino, the superintendent said, "What is your position on Russia?" And I said, "Well, I don't like it. They have the secret police." And he said, "Well, what do think the FBI is?" And I said, "Well, they're secret police," but I said, "they're supposed to stay within the bounds of the Constitution." I said, "The Constitution of Soviet Russia, they're not bound by." I said, "I oppose the concept of secret police." And, and I didn't realize, he said, "Well, we're teaching an anti-Communism course in, in Orofino." [Laughs] And I sort of, "What? What?" And he says, and he hands me this little pamphlet, it's got a red cover. [Laughs] And it's anti-Communism, you know, it says on it. And, and he said, "Would you teach this?" I said, "I don't know," I said, "I've never seen it before. I, I'll read it." And so I read it, and it was just collections of statements against Russia. It was the beginning of the Cold War, this is 1949, it's the beginning of the Cold War, actually. Maybe it began before.

And so when I came over to the University of Washington in 1951, and I had liberal professors -- I also had conservative, but you could tell it was a time when there was persecution on the campus. The president was a man interested only -- as I gathered -- in the medical school. He wasn't gonna get involved in the controversy of the anti-Communist conspiracy, is what a lot of 'em called it. And I had Kastigan, I had, I had the great, Salkatz, Presley, I had marvelous teachers at the University of Washington. A golden age, I called it. And, of course, this permeated the classes. How, how, who do, do you work on intellectuals? You persecute them, and then they will be quiet in the classroom. And when I, I was there three years in graduate school, and then went to teach at Renton, first thing I'm asked is, "What do you feel about the Soviet Union? What are your views on it?"

TI: So was this a common question that public schools would ask incoming teachers?

RM: Yeah. Especially social studies teachers. They didn't ask me my religious faith, whether I was Catholic or not. They asked me...

TI: Do you feel that you were, you were tainted by coming from the University of Washington also? Do you think that was...

RM: No, you know, when I was hired at Renton, there were four applicants. And he said, "You taught in Orofino?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "The logging?" "Yeah." I said, "No, very little farming." And he said, "How were the students?" And I said they were very different, very, I had aggressive students. And he said, "How did you handle it?" Said, "Fine." He said, "Okay," just went along with this, and then right at the end, he said, "Now, what do you think about the Soviet Union?" [Laughs] This is 1954. And I said, "I don't like secret police." You know, "I haven't got any..." he said, "Well, you're gonna be teaching classes in which this is a sensitive issue here. We've got John Birch Society, we've got the Boeing Company, we've got everybody pressuring us on this issue." And he said, "It has to be handled with care." He said, "People get fired around the state for trying to be so-called 'open-minded,'" he said.

Anyway, so I knew coming into the school system, both in Idaho and Washington, that this was a central issue. And, but I, I had my own feelings about that, but I also wanted the job, so I didn't make that a big thing. The important thing was that when you went to work in Idaho or Washington, you had instant tenure. They would have trouble, they have to go through the courts to fire you, particularly on this kind of an issue. And after having the liberal establishment at the University of Washington, I was... I almost, when he asked the question about the Soviet Union, Stan Thompson was his name, at Renton, I almost said, "Hey, I'm not a flaming liberal University of Washington graduate, but I am also, but I do believe that we should keep an open mind on things." But I didn't. I thought about it.

TI: Do you think that would have prevented you from getting the job if you said that?

RM: No, no. Later on I discovered that Stan Thompson stood behind open-mindedness. Came out in another way at first, and then I knew he was going to defend anything I taught. And I taught a course called "Russian-American Relations," oh, probably for four or five years in Renton. A very, very ticklish, he wanted that taught, he wanted it taught to understand -- and here was the critical point: the Soviet Union conquered eastern Europe with troops. Didn't conquer 'em with Communist doctrine, and yet, all this stuff coming from the anti-Communist crusade was the overthrow from within of these nations, like they were trying to do it here in America. And I came strong down on that, the idea that it was military conquest, not ideological, and I got into trouble with the Boeing Company and several others, because I became president of the Renton Education Association, and was considered so-called "open-minded." And he stood behind me.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.