<Begin Segment 8>

AI: Well, let me ask you, as you're, you know, going through all these articles on race relations, and you're, you're working with the racially mixed staff there at the American Council, did race relations include Japanese Americans? Or was --

EH: Oh, (yes).

AI: Did race relations mean mainly white and black?

EH: No, no. Mary Sabusawa herself being there, made it a point all the time. She couldn't tolerate the thought of, of... who was the California governor, who got into Supreme Court...

AI: Earl Warren?

EH: Earl Warren. She had no use for him. I always felt that Earl Warren was, to some extent, a good governor, and I, I just, you know, felt that he was in a political bind, like Franklin Roosevelt. I think they were under great political pressure, but Mary certainly brought up Manzanar, and where she was from, and, but she, you know, she had a sharp mind and she was a capable person for handling National Association for Intergroup Relations organization. She wasn't the head of that organization as much as she had to do the, the House Organ, and that was probably a monthly, slick news item for intergroup relation people all over the country. And she's the other, she's another one that had to grab every bit of new news -- there were a lot of Jewish and black kids who, women, who were having trouble getting into colleges because colleges were being very restrictive, and those are the kinds of issues that -- I've certainly learned when you sit next to somebody and listen to what they had to go through to get, get into college, and there was a black labor major student, Ruby something, and it was amazing to hear people like that, how sharp they were about labor issues. Evelyn Apperson was a quiet and dignified tall gal, but out of Fisk, out of Smith, and then she went to Fisk, and Mary Sabusawa questioned her, "With that intelligence of you to come from a school like Smith into, into an all-black college like Fisk, why would you do that?" And poor Evelyn was kinda stumped at being asked that question, and Fisk had a standing, and was, well-thought of and all, and, and for Mary, that was a step down. I don't know that Smith College, I don't know that Smith was integrated at all. And for black people, being in a black, total black environment, like Seattleites going to the South, to Atlanta, for instance, go to college, it puts them in a very different world. And a lot of them, places like Atlanta are so socially, you know, entrenched, but also ability to climb, and class, like it or not, I think there's, there is a lot of class structure in big cities, and a lot of professionals -- I think there's five, if I remember correctly, I think there's five black colleges in Atlanta. And so as a gathering point, and, and feeling like they're in their own world, they're, they're able to, rank and file, or climb, or dictate what goes on, where when they come back to a white world, things are quite different.

AI: Well, speaking of the differences between a "black world" and a "white world," where did the American Council fit into this picture, and where did you fit in as not black or white?

EH: Well, you know, you learn to be universal, you learn not to be restrictive, that concerns in every area hit you. At some point I remember that the migrant worker issues became an issue, they used, they used to call them "wetbacks." And, you know, eventually that kind of issue, inhumane-ness, it gets broadened. The Jewish population also had their share of problems, there were all devious, antagonistic steps to keep them out. So you learn... I remember riding the bus in Chicago, on Michigan Avenue, and there was a couple of Jewish women sitting behind me, and from their viewpoint they were saying, kind of oblivious to my sitting in front of them, but they were saying, "(Yes), grab 'em anytime you get a chance. They're great domestic people. They're clean, they're orderly, they're..." And they're talking about hiring people from evacuation camps. [Laughs] And I just thought, again, this is the world. But for Niseis, I think, adapting out of camp, into a city like Chicago was, took a real turn, and a change in environment and personality. Coming from a protected, ethnic Japantown, and to come out of camp, and then be entrenched in camp, and then to come out into this world where you really had to catch your grips, and watch, and be able to speak up. Because I think if you don't speak up, you do get stepped on.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.