<Begin Segment 6>

AI: So for example, when you were at Preferred Insurance --

EH: Uh-huh, I had that one encounter of black applicants coming to, answering a want ad. And I would have been, I was ready to... experience with trying to see if this would work, and at least giving them a chance. At that point, I, I didn't see where we, they should be totally ostracized, I knew that the rest of the staff was (going to) have a fit about it, but I was willing to try. And then to be told by the head of the department, "No, no, get away, do something to, say something to get out of that situation." And interestingly enough, I think there was an agency called Rappaport something, right next-door to, to the Preferred Accident, and I had been, I don't know whether it was JACL, but fair employment practice issues were cropping up. And I knew that the American Jewish Council was active and I was feeling very, questioning, and had a worry about Rappaport's being right next-door. Because somehow I knew they were active in social issues, American Council on... Jewish, Jewish American Council, or there's a committee of sizeable, and that was probably, early '50s. So FEPC kinds of issues was beginning to hit the press, and I think a law was passed that we couldn't discriminate. And so, if these black gals that came to apply were probably not that sophisticated, but if they, if they knew better, or if there was a system, system entrenched to combat discrimination, they could've easily walked into the Rappaport office and, and sought help. And they might have gotten it. But, and that occurred to me. I was aware that the Rappaport office was next door, and wondered whether they knew about discriminate -- the Jewish community was strong on discrimination issues. They did a amicus curiae for, I think the... the Japanese American issues on...

AI: Later, for the redress.

EH: (Yes), later. But...

AI: But, so at that time then, you said that you felt very uneasy, and that you personally would have hired --

EH: I would've, I would've liked to try it, and I knew there was going to be hell and high -- [laughs] -- water in the rest of the personnel, but I could have used them in filing system, I didn't have any idea what their skills really were. But I certainly... where I got that, 'cause until I met Ralph I didn't really get involved with -- Ralph was active in what was called American Ethical, American Ethical Cultural Society, and that was, that's a fairly significant group, especially on the East Coast and even in Chicago. That happened because he had a Jewish English teacher who apparently was active in American Ethical Culture, and it got him a scholarship to go to a summer institute in New York. And that was a significant experience for him because Henry Wallace and Eleanor Ro-, in fact, Eleanor Roosevelt, I don't know whether they were stationed at Hyde Park, but I, they were, we had pictures of Eleanor Roosevelt speaking, and it was at Hyde Park. And that was a, that probably was an early instilling for him, 'cause I, or he was active in American... AVC, American Veterans Committee, which is a more liberal group, and they, they were trying to break the color line in Chicago.

AI: But before you met Ralph, when you were --

EH: I, just a little vaguely probably, the Estes Park experience, having lived with the Parks, Mrs. Redfield's parents, knowing he was at Fisk, and those kinds of things kind of bridge a gap. I never met, I don't think I ever encountered a black person, whether, as a guest or in the period before.

AI: Well, in fact, I wanted to ask you, at Preferred Insurance, it sounds like your employers there, and your supervisor and boss at Preferred Insurance, really put you and the other Nisei workers in a category by yourself. You weren't quite the same as the white American workers, but you definitely were in a different, they seemed to put you in a different category from black workers, who they wouldn't even hire.

EH: (Yes), (yes), there was, I think socially, that topic just never came up, even in society very much. It was there because by the time I got to American Council, I discovered that there was a whole new world out there. But in the run of the mill association, we nev-, I don't think we ever discussed it. At Preferred, we were fairly integrated and, and --

AI: As Nisei.

EH: (Yes), we used to eat lunch together, and I heard all about dates, and parochial schools, and the girls, good segment of the girls, not, maybe not so much together, but the big thing about office girls -- and Chicago's a Catholic city -- would spend their fall weekends going to Notre Dame games. The would hop on the train, and go to... I've forgotten, Notre Dame is north, something Bend. And for them it was just a routine thing to do, and I wouldn't, we certainly weren't involved in football at all, practically. It didn't take long, because the Chicago -- what, Giants? Bears, were notorious. But the other kinds of social integration -- that experience was, was, I think, a good experience. When Mildred Suzuki's husband came home, the whole office was in an emotional uproar, and said, "Go, go home, go home, go wash your hair, go clean your apartment." That's what she was worried about, and that was, that was very heartwarming.

AI: So at a moment like that, it sounds like there was really almost no consciousness of difference at a moment like that.

EH: No, no, no. We certainly, we certainly didn't meet on the weekends, and we didn't do anything socially, but lunchtime, and...

AI: Well, so, then --

EH: One of the interesting things, it was, it was so well-integrated that there was a secretary, a typist, who got to my sister Martha when Martha came in for a summer job. Had borrowed money from Martha, and she was a very masculine, foul language and all. And she was just not going to part with her money, to give back, and I had to go to the assistant, the director kind of lawyer kind of guy, and I said, "Mr. Manning, your gal Friday here, Martha's leaving tomorrow, and Martha's having trouble getting her forty-five dollars back from, will you speak to her?" "Absolutely." Immediately called her in, and said, "Get that money or check out. She needs to leave and get out of here." And, so there was no bones about the equality kind of situation.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.