<Begin Segment 24>

AI: So just before the break, you were talking about some of your activities and the, we had talked some about the co-op daycare and the Madrona school, but I wanted to, just to set the context for the era again. In 1963, of course, was the March on Washington for -- and, and it was actually called the March for Jobs and Freedom, which some people don't recall, because now, of course, it's so closely affiliated with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And 1964 was the passage of the historic Civil Rights Act. And so, kind of within that national context, though, here at the local area there were also activities going on as you were saying earlier, because people were recognizing the discrepancies between those who were doing well economically and the mainstream white population, as compared with those who were not doing well economically, and especially those who were suffering from racial discrimination.

EH: Uh-huh.

AI: So if, maybe then if you could talk some about some of your work with -- you had mentioned CAMP, which stands for Central Area Motivation Program, here in Seattle.

EH: I think that's maybe one of the most satisfying periods of work that I had, because there were no daycare centers, and when I was in -- when Ralph was on sabbatical in Berkeley and we were living in Berkeley, I got a long-distance call asking me if I would be willing to direct a daycare center for CAMP. And I was a little reluctant because I'd never had a full-, never held a full-time job. I was, the Family Life instructors position went on the school calendar and we were off in the summertime and school holidays and things like that. But, so when we got back to, from Berkeley to Seattle, and Ralph also was on a new assignment program called Upward Bound at the University of Washington. That was a program for gearing very poor population, poverty group, who were potentially good scholars, to be able to cope with university work. And they picked, picked the kids up from their junior year, after their junior year, their all-summer intensive academic program, dormitories provided and all, and then they went back to the high school for senior year, and after graduation they started, that summer began taking freshmen courses, university courses. And so Ralph was (going to) have, have his hands full, but --

AI: And that would have been 1966 when you returned from Berkeley?

EH: Berkeley, uh-huh. '66, popular English prof. by the name of Roger Sale was the director for the first two years, and then there was a Jack Brenner was another English prof. Anyway, but seven or eight of those teachers all stuck by that program, every summer full-time. They hired tutors and counselors and transportation/recreation people. Anyway, the last, last three years that Ralph was involved in that was probably... see, he was in it for seven years, so almost '66, early '70s, until '73 or something, he took the directorship for the last three years. But no matter who was director, they did the directorship for part-time, and they continued to teach. So Roger Sale continued to be the English prof., and he and Jack Brenner continued to be English people on staff, and Ralph was teaching history. But when he did it part-time, he did part-time history teaching at the same time.

AI: And, and --

EH: But anyway, when I went to daycare, they had set it up to some extent.

AI: Excuse me, CAMP had set it up?

EH: (Yes). Central Area Motivation... that started in about April, and I didn't get back until July. But there was no training, and they were, they were trying and diligent, but they were using what we called OEO funds, Economic Opportunity money. And then within the year, the government said if, "If you're using federal monies for preschool programs, you have to follow Head Start guidelines." And that was, that was all right. That was a blessing, because Head Start provided training programs, teacher training material and teacher training classes, and I was either able to send people to community college, eventually some, a couple of them went to Western for a semester or two. But they were able to teach part-time and we could hire additional people, and then they continued classes. And that was all a learning experience. There had to be, licensing was fully implemented by that time, and I had to make sure that every bit of that license was followed. And it was detailed -- daycare works very minutely detailed, and it has to be for the protection of the children, including nutrition. And so we picked up a lot of information and knowledge, the Department of Agriculture contracts had to be followed. And it worked, I think it worked very well for people who were novices in the field, and yet, because we had ongoing, sometimes on-location training with community college people. Not supervising, but taking notes and then being able to make suggestions and be able to -- in various ways -- art, music, outdoor recreation. We had to have a certain amount of space for outdoors. So for the kids, it was great. Most of these kids were cramped in, in apartments, and they had very little space to play, and their parents didn't always understand how much kids needed to be outside. I had problems with educating parents and teachers that yes, we're going to go outside, even if it's drizzling it's not (going to) hurt the kids. The kids really enjoy being outside. They need to let, let off steam, and get their exercise. And gradually, everybody picked up the pace and learned.

There was also a national organization called National Association for the Education of Young Children. Here in Puget Sound it was PSAC, Puget Sound Association. And that gradually -- see, because daycare was not really a field until that time, along with Head Start. So we had good programs for Puget Sound Association, and we went to annual conferences all over the country. But for... and I could, I could understand, when I initially came on the scene, they were really reluctant. They didn't want to give up their ownership of that program.

AI: Who was reluctant?

EH: The staff that was, the staff that was already there. But I had to lay some rules down: no, no corporal punishment, no, we are not spanking children. We learned to talk to them, and you don't talk down, you don't yell, get in the corner and have a conversation. And sometimes the kids were unruly and could not tolerate having to sit still and being talked to. And you learned to handle children with respect and in that way, even if you have to leave the room a little while, just to calm the child down. But the parents had to learn those kinds of things. There were times when they, somebody would say, "But they don't understand. Spanking is what they understand." And I said, "Not here. We're (going to) teach without... and besides that, it's, Licensing won't allow you to strike children in any way." Voice-wise, even communicating with them. You talk to children with respect, no matter how much they're screaming or crying, get them aside and calm them before, and so they could sit and talk. If they have to be isolated or quiet by themselves to simmer down, provide that. But the parents wanted to do things like wash hair and, and give them baths or change clothes.

AI: Excuse me. The parents or the teachers?

EH: The teachers. And, and I said, "No, we're not going to change clothes or give them baths. If you feel they have to have that, let's, let's educate the parents why." And they would say, "You don't know what it's like to... you don't want to take kids messy and dirty to public market, places like that." And I'd have to almost, have to start educating them about, "What kind of reaction is this going to have for the children? What kind of, how are the parents going to feel?" If the parents don't know how, how you feel, they may not correct it. But if you explain to them right, then they'll learn to iron their clothes and launder their clothes. But that went on for a while, and, and at one point, because they were so... not quite hostile, but because they, they wanted to run things their own way, and I said to Walt Hundley, "Look, I'm going to go back to the Family Life staff, and I could understand their ownership, but I'm not (going to) tolerate spanking, and I'm not (going to) tolerate yelling at the kids."

AI: And excuse me, and Walt was the executive director of...

EH: Executive director of CAMP. Central Area Motivation Program.

AI: At that time, and so he was the executive over these, the ultimate manager?

EH: (Yes), he had many departments. CAMP was a very multi-faceted program. And Walt said, "No, we need you to stay here. I will find another place for the director that was there," and there was, she was a good worker, but she had the old-fashioned discipline attitude. And even if she didn't, the teachers were, so-called "teachers" were bound to use that.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.